Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

m6user · June 2013

That's why I said given the same scenario as we have in the U.S. most Euros would probably want the same things we do. Long distance travel, wide roads, long commutes, cheap gas all add up to big incentives for the big engined, big road machines we grew up with. You're making the same argument I am but in reverse.

So many post "Americans just have to have big HP or big cars" and the underlying insinuation that it IS some kind of character flaw. We are all human beings and pretty much reacting to the situation we are in and given the same circumstances most people from anywhere in the world would behave similarly IMO.

But I guess there are the "enlightened" few that would drive a Prius if gas was less than $1 gal. and I don't think any single country would have a monopoly on them. LOL. Of course, if gas had never rose above a $1 a gal would there even be a Prius???

fedlawman · June 2013

Semantics, really, and I do see your point, but Im not sure I completely agree with you. There are, after all, many Americans who choose to drive smaller cars because they are more fun, handle better, or whatever other reasons.

Maybe I'm contradicting myself, but all things being equal, I think many people would still choose to own a small car. Many Europeans and Americans alike do this as a matter of personal preference not because they are forced or encouraged by government restrictions or taxes.

I guess I am a good example of this. I just went down the list of cars I've owned over my entire driving lifetime (15 cars over 30 years), and only two of them had/has an engine larger than 2.5L. Looking at my list even closer, half of them were 2.0L or smaller. I'm sure many many European drivers share my love for small nimble cars.

m6user · June 2013

No, i think we agree in general and that's pretty much what I'm talking about.....in general and we are talking somewhat historically here. The scenario regarding gas prices in this country has changed greatly during the past 5 years so going forward a lot of smaller choices are going to made. There are always exceptions to any rule and different degrees of difference. But, again and in general, I think Americas love affair with big HP and big cars stemmed from the vast size and open spaces that were available when the auto came into being in this country. The scenario you describe(narrow roads, congestion, short travel distances and eventually high fuel prices) for Europe was like that for years and years before the auto made it debut.

I think I've only owned one car with over 300 hp but I have owned several V8s and still have a V8 pickup that gets used sparingly while my I4 gets the bulk of the miles. I think my 68 Mustang V8 was rated at less than 200hp.

fedlawman · June 2013

So this begs the question, before the automobile did Europeans ride smaller horses?

Out of all my cars, only 2 had over 200 hp. None reached 300 hp.

dino001 · June 2013

I agree with your previous statement. Many people often insinuate the Europeans drive those small cars with small engines because they are such caring creatures and Americans love their obscenely huge cars with insanely large engines because they are such fill the blank. I do believe there is large amount of excess and waste in so-called American way of life. However, I also believe everybody else in the world would have done the same if given a chance.

On fuel price subject, I think it is fair to expect significant changes in domestic market. While crude price went up the same for everybody, gas prices went up more here than anywhere else, in relative terms. This is because in other countries taxes are much higher percentage of the price (up to 80%) and most of which is flat portion. In other words, insane taxation of fuel in Europe causing high prices at the first place, cushioned the gas price runup when crude over quadrupled from in 2000s. American consumer on the other hand saw every move in crude translated to almost equally proportional move in gas price. Suddenly, those who owned Explorers and Blazers, as their family and commuting cars could not bear the increased cost. So I think we will see significant convergence of the markets. Europeans are liking those taller crossovers almost as much as Americans (many just can't afford them) and Americans will have to learn to like fewer cubic inches, cylinders and even less space in certain conditions.

graphicguy · June 2013

I know quite a few Europeans who either own American muscle cars (at no small expense to buy, import and operate in Europe), or prefer larger Jags and BMWs as their preferred daily drivers.

Not so certain they like the fact that they have to drive diesels or (relatively) underpowered cars. But, their gov'ts dictate that they do so, either with taxes and tarrifs or by supporting much higher fuel prices.

That said, the U.K. is looking at price fixing by at least Shell and B.P....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bp-and-shell-pricefixing-investiga- tion-oil-executives-may-face-jail-warns-david-cameron-8617892.html

U.S. DOJ is doing the same....

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/05/17/oil-price-probe/2215241/-

Kirstie_H · June 2013

There's not just a financial incentive for owning a small car in Europe. If you've ever driven in a fairly large European city, you know that parking can be an absolute nightmare. Finding a parking place for even a midsize sedan can be a challenge, but you can often find on-street parallel parking that you can squeeze a tiny car into. I had a Nissan Micra when I was in the London area a few years ago, which was awful on motorways (drive to Newcastle = not fun), not great on "a"' roads, but great for tight parking spots and tiny "b" roads.

Same sometimes when living out in the sticks. My ex in-laws lived way out, and it was a 10-mile jaunt on a mostly dirt road with giant hedgerows on either side, and the road itself was wide enough for about 1.5 vehicles. If you met an oncoming vehicle, you had to pull off til the passenger side of the vehicle was pretty firmly against the hedgerow. So, my ex in-laws, flush with money, owned a tiny vehicle for those purposes.

xrunner2 · June 2013

I'm not certain how well diesels will play in the ELLPS category, specifically the "Performance" portion, but the lowly VW definitely had the NVH within range of near-luxury specs.

Can understand their use in Europe, but wonder why some might want a diesel in an ELLPS in the U.S. Unless travel and commutes pass truck stops, then not easy to find diesel.

I have a JD tractor with a diesel engine and there are only 2 gas stations in an 8 mile radius that sell diesel. Of course, I pick up the fuel in 5 gallon containers. One thing that future diesel car owners should know is that the area around the pumps, concrete pavement, pump handle, everything is oily, messy and dirty. Make sure you have extra paper towels to clean your hands, and maybe shoe bottoms, in case the gas station does not have same in nearby dispenser.

dino001 · June 2013

True, parking spaces are smaller. Even turn radii in places like parking garages can be just insane. I remember one in Cologne - there was a post in the middle of exit curve with a rainbow of colors from paint transfers.

graphicguy · June 2013

I used to drive in Manchester quite a bit. Not only is parking crazy, they park any way they want, wrong side, pointed the wrong direction. Of course, I saw quite a few fender benders as a result.

I concur with Dino....Euro drivers don't drive small cars because they want to, or out of some misguided sense of environmentalism. They drive them because there's either no room for a more comfortable car, or they can't park them.

graphicguy · June 2013

Those of us in the U.S. can't find the financial value equation to support diesels. Plus, we like high revving motors. Diesels do have good low end torque, but run out of steam quickly. They'll never be more than a small niche here. Hybrids, plug-in hybrids, clean gas engines do as well, mostly better than diesels.

I saw a study recently stating that 50% of U.S. cars will be some form of hybrid or an electric car by 2025. That's only 12 years from now. Diesels won't have a place at that table.

andres3 · June 2013

I forget who, but someone wrote an article recently saying that the Electric car was just about dead, and for certain a dead-end technology we've sunk billions into and made little progress in the last couple of decades.

Guess it depends which studies you read.

markcincinnati · June 2013

Yesterday, our local Infiniti store had a "party" of sorts for the 2014 Q50. Food, drink, customized wine glasses and a 4MB thumb drive key-chain were the "Thanks for coming" gifts offered to this -- public invited -- coming out party for the new Q50.

Overall, I would say the event was under-attended. Although there was some mention of the event in the local Cincinnati newspaper, no special invitation to current Infiniti owners was sent out (we have a 2011 FX35 coming off lease in about 6 months).

Present at the event: the Infiniti dealership sales team, one factory rep and one "marketing rep" (a representative of a company hired by Infiniti to test the Q50 against an Audi A4 and a BMW 3 series.) My wife and I stayed for about an hour (of the four hour show) -- a "pre-production" Q50S w/AWD fully optioned was on display and we were encouraged to try out the front and rear seats and especially to get behind the wheel. The car had been used throughout the day to train the reps -- and it had been, according to the factory rep, driven hard by some of the more adventurous Infiniti sales team members.

The car -- no matter if you think it is attractive or not -- is different looking (by far) from the pictures many of us have seen in print and on-line. My impression of the in-person view is that the Q50 exterior is beautiful. The interior is Audi-nice -- which is about as high of a compliment as I can give for anyone's automotive interior rendering.

The dash, the electronics, the gauges, pedals, switch gear, etc etc etc are all "jewel-like" -- the interior is a major upgrade over even the current M cars -- in fact, the new Q50 has to be the nicest Infiniti (inside and out) ever.

My wife -- a conservative attorney, not subject to hyper-ventalating -- remarked "this may very well be a game changer for Infinti." My comment -- written here previously -- to the factory rep was that Infinti will know it has "arrived" when Car & Driver, et al, proclaim the BMW 3 series as "the German Infiniti," since, thus far, the praise heaped on Infiniti's G cars goes something like "Infiniti's G37, the Japanese BMW."

We'll know if Infiniti has knocked it out of the park when the shoe is on the other foot.

The Q50 according to the marketing representative was track-tested against an Audi A4 2.0T with sport package and against a BMW 328i (with x-drive) also with sport package.

Now, at first blush, this seems like an unfair comparison: the Infiniti has a 325+ HP V6, HUGE brakes (with 4-piston stoppers on the front) and sport everything. By comparison, the two Germans were equipped with their manufacturer's turbo 4s and sport packages.

One look at the specs of the three compared cars, and the Germans appear totally out-gunned. It's no wonder, then, that the Infiniti Q50S out accelerated, out handled -- out ran, overall -- the boys from the Fatherland. I asked the Infiniti factory rep why they didn't compare the Q50 to an Audi S4 or a BMW 335, since the specifications of the Infiniti would seem to call for the German hot rods to be able to call it a fair fight.

The answer from the Infiniti factory rep was that they compared similar sized cars, similar "class" cars, similarly equipped (lux options) cars at the same price points. For the Germans to be completely equipped and comparable to the Infiniti would have meant checking off the S4 and 335 variants of the Audi and BMW respectively.

Infinti reckons -- apparently -- that a $51,000+ Q50S AWD can be compared against an Audi A4 or BMW 3 series only if the Audi and BMW are equipped with their turbo 4-cylinders. The apples to apples comparison would require the $51,000 Q50S to be compared with an Audi or BMW that would cost between $10,000 and $12,000 more.

Infiniti hopes (I assume) that Automobile, Car & Driver, Motor Trend and Road & Track will see the light and only test the Q50 against other cars based on price. Based on my years of reading these enthusiasts magazines, I'd wager the Q50 will be compared to S4's and 335i's and price be damned.

However, against what can be had from a German sports sedan for $51,000, there's little doubt in my mind that the $51,000 Infiniti Q50 will kick their butts.

The factory rep said the target buyer is someone who will consider an Audi A4 or BMW 3 and the new Lexus IS. "Not so much comparison is likely to happen with the Q50 against the Cadillac ATS or the Mercedes C," so says the factory rep.

After absorbing about as much as one person can, without a test drive, we then went over about three doors to the Lexus dealer where a new IS 350 F-Sport AWD was on-display. Like the Q50, the IS350 looks different in person -- but unlike the Q50, the IS 350 is LESS attractive (to me, at least) in person -- yet there is something that MAY make the 350 more attractive: its price. A well optioned 2014 Lexus IS 350 AWD F-Sport was $48,000 including shipping. Infiniti may need to consider sub-venting their lease offerings -- since the IS350 does seem to be a worthy rival.

In pictures, the IS's interior wins -- in person, it appears more "industrial" and, for me that translates to, less attractive -- your mileage may differ.

We're at a point-of-inflection here folks -- two mighty fine cars have power-slided onto the scene. Updated Audis and BMW's better be in the queue REAL SOON. :surprise:

rayainsw · June 2013

Good to hear from you, Mark.
Please post your impressions once you drive the Q50?
- Ray
It is on my radar ....

nyccarguy · June 2013

Nice to hear from you mark as always!

markcincinnati · June 2013

Dealer rep tells me: Q50's (AWD only unless special ordered with a customer's name attached) will be "available" on or about July 25th. Oh, OK?

Wait, wait -- from a practical perspective, the rep says "inventory" will be available closer to the end of August, beginning of September (in the Cincinnati market).

I assume that some top-10 cities will have cars on July 26th. Being in a second-tier city, we'll have to wait our turn.

Dealer rep tells me they have 11 inventory cars on order and some number of "customer pre-order cars" coming in.

I understand WHY -- in Cincinnati -- we would only get the AWD versions, but the news to me was that only "sold orders" for RWD versions will be sent to dealers.

Me? I'm not interested in the RWD version, since we simply have too many days where the coefficient of friction is low -- but I can't imagine (even in Cincinnati) there wouldn't be a market for an RWD Q50.

Not the right forum, I know, but my wife announced to me her choices to replace her 2011 FX35; she has it down to a 2014 Audi Q5 or a 2014 "FX37" or QX70 as we think it will be called -- the BMW X3 is plan "C" apparently. :surprise:

robr2 · June 2013

Me? I'm not interested in the RWD version, since we simply have too many days where the coefficient of friction is low -- but I can't imagine (even in Cincinnati) there wouldn't be a market for an RWD Q50.

I'm guessing that it is easier to sell AWD to someone as an upgrade to RWD than the other way around.

billyperksii · June 2013

Mark correct me if I am wrong.
The Q50 will maintain the current engine and specs that is in the G37- right?

graphicguy · June 2013

Thanks, Mark. Interesting take. Like Billy, I'd like to know if the engine/trans is the sae as the G37.

markcincinnati · June 2013

I have read ALL of the car magazines regarding the engine (3.7L) and the transmission (7spd auto ONLY, manual dropped altogether).

They all say the engine/trans are "carried over" from the 2013 G37.

The "brief, very, very brief" literature handed out at the Q50 Party said ONLY the following HP 325+.

The G37 for 2013 says -- on the window sticker -- 328 HP.

I cannot imagine 325+ won't translate to a firm number: 328 -- but I've been wrong before.

The dealer and the factory rep did say that Gas Mileage on the new Q50 with the 3.7L was "better." The factory rep also said the hybrid (which uses the 'old' 3.5L V6 + help from electric motivation) is the quickest and fastest of the new Q50 lineup and that it gets "much better" fuel economy than the outgoing G37. Somewhere I read the hybrid's HP is 350+.

Net net: new Q50 has an incrementally improved 3.7L engine that has about the same power as the outgoing G37 model, plus better MPGs.

:confuse:

sweendogy · June 2013

Guys while I think the new q50 ( hate the name ) is going to be better then anything else in the segment for the price. Sure audis have nice interior, bmw has had the "free service" the bloodline and the cool codes for models, the Lexus has the nice show rooms and the lux background, the TL of late has had the discounts, the MB, cts, Volvo and Tsx have been outclassed at most levels.
This new commentary while enjoyable is old news the G - now q has beaten the bmw in the all important value for the buck. If you are a person who Buys (not leases) a car in this class - wants bmw sport and lux it's Infiniti for this class- not to beat a dead horse but I told you so.

igozoomzoom · June 2013

I've been helping my mom's best friend shop for a new vehicle to replace her leased 2010 Infiniti G37. Her lease expires on July 10th, so we're down to just a few weeks.

We looked at the 2013 Acura TL 3.5 'Base' and she liked it (drives great, awesome interior, but the exterior is still fugly to me)! They are offering the following lease deal-

$2499 due at lease signing ($2200 down, $299 first payment)
$299/month for 30 months
30k miles allowed, $0.20/mile overage

We also went to the Infiniti dealership and they offered the following-

2013 Infiniti G37 Journey 4-door w/ Premium Pkg
$2499 due at lease signing ($2200 down, $299 first payment)
$299/month for 24 months
24k miles allowed, $0.25/mile overage

She is currently paying just over $400/month and her goal is around $300/month and she's willing to put down around $2000. So both of these fit the bill.

The only other car that she really liked isn't quite an entry-level luxury car, but still very impressive, IMO. She loves the 2014 Mazda6 i Grand Touring. A 36-month lease with $2000 down would be around $280/month.

Any other suggestions for near-luxury or entry-level luxury cars that would fit within her budget of $2000-ish down and $300/month?

bwia · June 2013

Any other suggestions for near-luxury or entry-level luxury cars that would fit within her budget of $2000-ish down and $300/month?

She could probably lease a BMW 320i sedan for $299/month with $2K down payment.

flightnurse · June 2013

There is a forum (On edmunds) just for this, that talks about leases for all cars, find them for both the TL and G and see what people are leasing these cars for. This Forum is more about talking about these cars than best lease prices.

stickguy · June 2013

You can do a Volvo S60 T5 for that money.

sweendogy · June 2013

speaking of volvo s60- they sold more of them (last month, May sales) then honda sold Tl's and TSXs--

end of Acura coming soon?? - for more sales numbers click on link

http://wot.motortrend.com/bmw-3-series-leads-luxury-sports-sedan-may-sales-s60-b- eats-tl-374761.html#axzz2X98Hfnx3

nyccarguy · June 2013

Thanks for the link sween. It was an interesting read. I didn't realize MB sells as many Cs as BMW sells 3s.

igozoomzoom · June 2013

There is a forum (On edmunds) just for this, that talks about leases for all cars, find them for both the TL and G and see what people are leasing these cars for. This Forum is more about talking about these cars than best lease prices.

Thanks. But the Lease and Purchase topics cover one specific model (and I have visited them already). I wanted to cast a wider net for ideas and suggestions, so that's why I posted it here.

igozoomzoom · June 2013

speaking of volvo s60- they sold more of them (last month, May sales) then honda sold Tl's and TSXs--

end of Acura coming soon?? - for more sales numbers click on link

The Volvo S60 is an a very good car- looks good, drives good, good value depending on model/options. The Acura TL, even with the DESPERATELY NEEDED 2012 nose job and butt lift, is still not an appealing design...not as ugly as the 2009 TL, but few if any cars are uglier than that!

At the height of its popularity, the TL sold 78,218 units in 2005. Even the 2008 model sold 48,766 cars. But the 2009-2012 TL has only sold in the low 30s each year, topping out at 34,049 in 2010.

2013 YTD Figures at May EOM aren't looking very good either. So far, the TL has sold 12,434 units this year which is down 15.3% (or 2242 units) compared to this time last year.

My beloved, but ignored and soon to be discontinued, TSX is faring much worse. Year to date, it has only sold 7,746 compared to 15,012 at this point in 2012. That's a decrease of 48.4% or 7266 fewer cars.

The ILX is hardly setting any records, but it has sold 9,217 units YTD. That is almost 2000 more sales than the TSX has lost compared to last year, so people are obviously buying the ILX instead of the TSX. But the ILX desperately needs to replace the underpowered 150hp 2.0L engine used in all models with the 5-speed A/T! I've driven a 2013 ILX Premium with the 2.0L 5AT and I was genuinely impressed with the car until I pulled onto the highway! 0-60mph takes 9.5 seconds, dead-even with the Kia Rio and Hyundai Accent with 6-speed A/T! Even the cheap-as-dirt Nissan Versa 1.6 CVT can hang neck-and-neck at 9.8 seconds.

That kind of performance is tolerable, if mediocre, on a $15k car. But on a $30k 'Premium' entry-level luxury or near-luxury model, it's simpy UNACCEPTABLE! Especially from a company that is known for making some great high-performance 4-cylinder engines!

Acura was doing just fine with until 2009 when the godawful "Power Plenum" (aka- 'The Shield' and 'The Beak') corporate fascia debuted! Despite immediate negative response from the media and consumers and plunging sales figures, they defiantly insisted that it was the new look of Acura....and it wasn't nor has it been pretty since! =(

I have owned seven Honda/Acura vehicles in my 24 years of driving. I've owned nine different cars in my life, and was a die-hard Honda loyalist from the day I got my license in 1990 until 2006 when I saw the new Civic and walked away! Actually, I drove off the lot in shock and terrified at the prospect of shopping for anything other than a Honda. But after some research and test drives, I found myself right at home with a 2006 Mazda3 and now I have a 2012 CX-9 GT.

But the best car I've ever driven (and the best car ever made, in my humble opinion) was my 1994 Acura Legend L 4-door. I bought it in 1997 when it was returned at the end of a 36-month lease. It was Frost White with Taupe Cloth and 5-speed manual, but that was exactly how I wanted it. I drove until May 2001 when I was t-boned by a speeding F250 work truck running a red light as I was making a left turn. I barely survived, but my Legend did not. =(

It's sad to see Acura where it is today. I've felt much the same way about Honda for the last several years also. But the 2013 Accord is so good and so much better than the 2008-2012 model that it replaced....perhaps there's hope after all?

fedlawman · June 2013

Good post "igozoomzoom."

I honestly think Acura would sell many more cars if they rolled back time and started making their 2006 lineup again...LOL.

The MDX is the only Acura worth a look in its segment right now, and even it is overdue for a refresh.

m6user · June 2013

The RDX is selling very, very well and the MDX is still a very good seller. Guess which models Acura makes more profit on? So sales of certain models doesn't necessarily spell disaster as it's overall profit that counts. Of course making good proift on all your lines is preferable but as long as you're making money it's not exactly like you're going to go out of business. Accords didn't so so well over the past 5 years but several other models like the CRX, Odyssey, Civic and Pilot sold well and with good profit margins.

Bottom line, just looking at sales numbers of a couple of models is a fools delight. Acura is one good redesign away from being on track again with the TL and one good engine to make the ILX a good seller. Along with the very profitable MDX and RDX sales they will be just fine.

stickguy · June 2013

the new MDX came out this week. All new design. Basically a "supersized" RDX, with the hi-tech AWD, etc. But same basic platform and drivetrain, just more goodies and room.

they do need to hurry up and redesign the TL/TSX (I believe they are combining the 2 into 1 car) into something competitive and exciting. They can then also tweak the ILX (maybe go to the TSX 2.4l engine/6 speed combo).

the TSX-TL (TSL?) can grow a bit, and offer 4 and V6 like the TSX used to. Or, follow the trend and go NA and Turbo.

The ILX is improved this year (content wise). Pretty much they eliminated the base (strippo) model but kept the price close.

so, there is hope now that they did the "big" car, and both SUVs. The other sedans are definitely due, since the TSX was done for 2009 so it is on it's 5th year, and TL the 6th.

sweendogy · June 2013

While I agree the mdx (and its now a new mdx) and rdx sell well, very well they do not sell in numbers to keep the brand alone- look at the sales numbers for every other car they produce and they are mid pack at best in terms of sales- mind you mid pack means massive discounts and minimal If any profit. Honda on the other hand no matter how bad the previous accord and civic looked they stll were near the top of the sales chain. I would also note that when the last civic was being slammed they quickly fixed it because its the real bread and butter of the brand.

Acura is one good redesign away from selling some cars for sure- but they have to redesign a bunch of cars to do that.

Sales numbers tell the story, they sold 200k crvs in 2011 and when they did a redu they were very careful not to mess that up. Something they failed to do with the tsx and TL.

m6user · June 2013

means massive discounts and minimal If any profit.

You champion solid research all the time....do you have any information that indicates Acura is making "minimal, if any profit". If they are midpack then everyone below must be in Chapter 11. I think a little exaggeration is being played here.

but they have to redesign a bunch of cars to do that.

Ummhh...no, just a couple. Where do you get a "bunch of cars"? They just totally redesigned the MDX, RDX and RLX. The RDX outsells the BMW X3, the Q5 and the EX37. Nothing midpack there. The MDX is right up there in sales with most of them except the RX. The RX has no little brother to share sales with(yet, NX is coming). If it did the MDX and RX would be pretty close in sales IMO. So saying that all their lines are "midpack" is probably another exaggeration.

They have the ILX which admittedly needs some tweaking. They already have the 2.4l in the sport model of the ILX. They should just make that the base engine with a 6 spd auto. They are apparently ditching the TSX so the only car they really need to redo completely(and with a pleasing design hopefully) is the TL or whatever they are going to call the replacement for the TL/TSX. That's one car....not a bunch of cars.

billyperksii · June 2013

M6user, why even go the distant in debating someone who looks at one side of the Balance Sheet.

igozoomzoom · June 2013

The MDX is the only Acura worth a look in its segment right now, and even it is overdue for a refresh.

As someone else already mentioned, the redesigned 2014 MDX has just been released in the last week or so. It looks like a 5/4 version of the RDX, but that's not a bad thing based on current RDX sales.

YTD sales of the RDX as of May month end were up 122.1% over the same period in 2012. 18,177 units vs. 8,183 last year!

I applaud Acura for trying something different with the original RDX and using a turbocharged 4-cylinder, but buyers in this segment want smooth V6 power. Just like the Mazda CX-7, a high-performance compact/upscale CUV is interesting in theory but the reality doesnt quite cut it.

The MDX was definitely due for a significant update after seven years with little change. I test drove a 2012 MDX last November when I was in the market for a 3-row CUV and I still chose the 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT. The MDX stickered for $44k and the CX-9 stickered for $39k and the CX-9 had more features, better handling and the interior materials and assembly quality were also on part with the Acura. The lack of a FWD version of the MDX was also a negative.

The real price difference also made my decision much easier. This was in 11/2012 and I could barely get the 2012 MDX for $2500 off sticker (around $41,500). My CX-9 stickered for $38,785 and I drove it off the lot for $29,706 plus sales tax! I paid cash for the CX-9, but probably would have leased the MDX if I had picked it. Grandma was generous in her will, but not THAT generous!

Back to the current and near-future of Acura.the demise of the TSX will take a sedan AND wagon out of the lineup. Will the ILX, TLX and RLX sedans and RDX and MDX crossovers be enough to keep the brand viable and return it to actual relevance?

Then again, Buick is doing well with less- a compact sedan (Verano), a sporty/performance-oriented mid-size sedan (Regal) and near-full-size sedan (LaCrosse) along with a large Crossover (Enclave) and mini-crossover (Encore). In particular, the Encore is a joke compared to the RDX and the LaCrosse is no RLX. But somehow, Buick is more desirable than Acura to most buyers.

billyperksii · June 2013

"Buick is more desirable than Acura to most buyers".
oh really? I am pretty sure Honda was not begging the Goverment for $50 million to keep them a float during the financial meltdown. And please dont get me wrong, I am not throwing insults, just facts.

sweendogy · June 2013

well M6 - i am the champion for research or atleast I do want a base for strong commentary as opposed to random thoughts.. case in point- the 2013 TL SHAWD with tech pack, we can mosltly agree would be a good example to use- it has a MSRP of over 44k, invoice of 41,6 and according to true car for my area (use 02144) you can get it for 39,588 (3 dealers willing to do this deal) - thats over a 10% discount- the BMW 328 is down 4%, the Audi down 6 and ATS Caddy is 3%.. i just dropped some knowledge on you. I understand you cannot truly tell what they are making or losing on these cars but it tells you something when it comes to discounting and fact is they are not making as much (could be losing?) as they would like given the above figures. second paragraph above- Again as i stated the 2 SUVS sell well, but lets remember how many MDXs are they selling?? 50k last year mdx - very good year -vs the x5s 44,445- the rdx 29,520 again very good year as they avg around 15k since inception the bmw x3 35,173[. BMW sells 100k 3 series in the states vs the tls 33k -- so are they really beating them by that much to justify a TL that sells a third of the 3 series?? lets add in the tsx 28,865 sales from 2012.. so 2 car lines make up HALF of 3 series sales. Acura no longer sells (haha) the ZDX-- they sold 379 RL for 2012. 379 wonder what the margins on the balance sheet on that one are (was). (all numbers above are US numbers).

I stand by my statements from 5 years ago- they need a convertable, a sports coupe, a midlevel sedan with looks, a flagship people want and a supercar (which is comming).. Thats a bunch in my estimation maybe we have differ thoughts on what is alot but when we are talking half a line of cars its alot.

and for billy both sides of the balance sheet need to equal out to make it balance sheet.

laurasdada · June 2013

My prior ride was an 2005 Abyss Blue Acura TL. Other than not so good in the snow (until I bought it snow shoes), what a great all around ride! Simple, handsome exterior, I still think it looks good. Power, handling, good ride, decent mpg, nice interior, well built and reliable. 6.5 years, 85,000 trouble free, Zaino-shiny miles.

When the '09 came out, I was pretty shocked and upset at the path the Acura stylists had taken. While I may be no arbiter of style, I was fairly sure Acura was going to take a hit on TL sales. Of course, the Beak being the most obvious flaw. But the rest of the car just seemed overwrought and heavy-looking to me.

Talking to Acura rep at the New England Auto Show, the first thing he noted was that the beak could be painted to make it less obtrusive. Now, there's a selling point...

We've had several Acura's in my family, nothing but good experiences. I hope that they can reclaim the prior gen TL's glory. And, I'm not sure the RLX will be the answer to anyone's question. Hopefully, a good car, but the styling, IMHO, not so much.

flightnurse · June 2013

This isn't the forum to talk lease price's, this is to talk about the cars. The other forums will give you what people are getting the cars for. I found the RDX forum very handy for my cousin, he was able to get a great deal on one, from the posting on the correct Forum.

sweendogy · June 2013

oh billy billy billy-- billyboy wow - blaming buick, a division of GM for its management faults (& labor issues) and not the actual cars they produce..Seems fair-- oh wait honda didnt ask for a bailout in 09 are you sure billy?/

http://www.newser.com/story/52383/honda-hops-on-bailout-bandwagon.html

billyperksii · June 2013

Answer these questions and try to analyze where the company stands-

1). What is Honda's Market Cap and how many shares are outstanding?
2) How much Debt is on their balance Sheet?
3). What is their free cash flow?
4). What is their EBITDA?
5). Whats the PMV?

Creating a model on the above information probably will give you a true outlook on the companys future.
Again I am just trying to help you in your attempt of the demise of Honda.

flightnurse · June 2013

Oh I wish I had time to pop some popcorn and watch this, however, I need to go pay some bills.

sweendogy · June 2013

i can run those numbers asap if needed- but i never said honda- i said acura.. hello

numbers you requested

market cap is 65b, 1.8b outstanding, rev growth looks good. free cash is 547, ebitda has risen from 12 levels, trading at a 52 week low yday--

m6user · June 2013

Does it really shock you that a 6 yr old design(and which wasn't liked well in the first place) is being heavily discounted with the knowledge that the car is basically going to be discontinued? You really need to take things in context. Facts and statistics are useless without context and relativity. You're right about one thing....they do need a midlevel sedan with great looks which may or may not be the new TLX.

You talk about discounts without having a clue as to what the real margins are. Like I said, context is very useful and if you were right 5 yrs ago Acura should be kaput by now. So much drama for no reason. Nobody is saying Acura has not made mistakes but you make it sound like the sky is falling.

sweendogy · June 2013

You talk about discounts without having a clue as to what the real margins are
no i mentioned that above but please feel free to drop those numbers on me.

Does it really shock you that a 6 yr old design( no but why didnt they chaange it earlier- like they did the civic of 2012??

sky is falling. no just sedans (the volume leaders) sales numbers

and im spent

billyperksii · June 2013

Dont want to get into this kiddy talk but from the numbers you cut and paste, what is your deductive reasoning on how the company (Honda/Acura) is doing? Build a model and let me know.

sweendogy · June 2013

billy - i've done enuf of the kiddy talk, the numbers I cut and past are the numbers you requested so... why dont you present a case and do some research.. like the article above that stated HMC took GOVT money- but you have yet to respond to that, its almost like you just said it to say it, which i guess is ok but I would like to know the true facts, which i supplied. This is a car chat while I can run thru the business side of this I can also show facts about car sales and trends, car rag articles that dispute M3s claim it a One Car fix, which I have.

m6user · June 2013

no i mentioned that above but please feel free to drop those numbers on me.

I didn't make the wild statements about Acura making little to no profit and may be on a real downward spiral, you did. In order to know that you would have to know margins. Knowing discounts means nothing without knowing the original markup. It's just like volume...it means nothing unless you can make a good buck at it.

no but why didnt they chaange it earlier- like they did the civic of 2012??
Ummhh...they screwed up. That's the car I was referring to that they have to change drastically and it needs to be a winner. However, even if they don't get it absolutely perfect the sky is not going to fall. Sorry.

I think you could make some of the same comments about Infiniti. I love Infiniti but they have pulled some real boners too. And some of their models are real low in the sales numbers but they seem to plugging along fairly well without the huge sales numbers....just like Acura. Acura may be doing even better because their SUV sales are better than Infiniti's and that's where a ton of profit is. Just like Ford and GM with their trucks/suvs. Not saying it's the best of all worlds but as far as making profit it works pretty well.

sweendogy · June 2013

Acura may be doing even better because their SUV sales are better than Infiniti's and that's where a ton of profit is what are the numbers, the profit you speak of?? you are saying they are making big profits but have yet to produce one number.. i present sales numbers you mock and are wild statements? Volume tells a story - its black and white - when they sell 350 RLs it tells a story - reasons car companies produce cars its to SELL CARS-- On the infinti thing for sure they have made mistakes-.

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