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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans



  • billyperksiibillyperksii Posts: 198
    The article you cut pasted did not say Honda actually got the money and secondly what is 5 million compared to 50 million. Lastly, you are cut and pasting information that you dont even understand, look at the revenues that HONDA is genarating-the same number you cut and paste. Go find out the their outstanding debt and probably that will paint a better picture of where they actually stand financially.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,181
    what are the numbers, the profit you speak of?? you are saying they are making big profits but have yet to produce one number..

    If you read at all about the auto industry you know that manufacturers make big profits off of their truck and suv sales. How much exactly I don't know. But the important thing about that statement is that I don't know exactly. That's why I don't make statements about a companies overall profit or loss. In the case of SUV profits I assumed it was pretty well known or accepted that manufactures back big bucks off of those sales but to be honest I really don't know. I'm not saying that either company is making huge overall profits because I simply don't know. YOU are the one that made statements about Acura profits or lack thereof mainly because of their lack of sales in the TL. You seem to base that theory on the fact that they are offering big discounts on the TL. I don't believe that is enough info to broadly state that Acura is making little to no profit as a company. If you do know then please enlighten us as I have never said that I do.

    Re volume, if we were talking about Camrys I would agree that huge volume is absolutely neccessary, but when you are talking about luxury cars I think they can be profitable without selling on volume. There are tons of car companies and most are doing ok even if they are midpack in sales or even on the lower end in sales. Being tops in sales means something I agree, but it's not the only factor when it comes to being a viable business.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,181
    And some have nothing to say about cars but simply to critique others.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,300
    billy we are talking billions not millions- lastly both tm and hM got govt subsidies that ended in 2012 as well.

    honda revs- they dont just include car sales- kiddie talk- I would also look at the currency moves and see what they are doing to said revs- if you could cut and paste something i would love to read it. Prob learn a thing or 2 while cutting and pasting...
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,355
    Let's just say you weren't the target demographic.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,300
    so just to confirm no "big profit" data availible- ok thanks- ill stick with the sales and pricing data as more of a guide because atleast its in print and not an opinion
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Posts: 198
    ok I am out.
    As another poster would say- "Happy Motoring".
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,181
    edited June 2013
    This sounds like a very nice package.

    "Opting for the 2014 Infiniti Q50 Hybrid will get the buyer a powertrain consisting of a 3.5-liter V6, a 50kW electric motor and a lithium ion battery that offers up a total power output of 354 hp and a highway fuel mileage rating of 36 miles per gallon, all for a starting price of $44,855, which includes the Premium group. The most expensive version of the new sedan is the Q50S Hybrid with all-wheel drive. That model carries an MSRP of $49,055."

    Above was copied from an article on

    I think the Q50H with AWD would be around $46,655. I think I read someplace that the H version would also be the fastest. Don't know what sacrifices(if any) they made for the hybrid MPG like tires, brakes etc.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,300
    Btw hmc on a chart does look interesting.
  • albanytimalbanytim Posts: 18
    You can build a Q50 on the Infiniti site under Future Vehicles. The Hybrid AWD is $46,405 but there are 2 option packages (Nav and Tech) that take it to $52,805 including destination. The Sport version is another $2,400 to $55,205.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,174
    Back to the current and near-future of Acura….the demise of the TSX will take a sedan AND wagon out of the lineup. Will the ILX, TLX and RLX sedans and RDX and MDX crossovers be enough to keep the brand viable and return it to actual relevance?

    Acura needs to fix the appearance of the TL. It doesn't really matter if it performs well and has a nice interior, it is still ugly. I'm driving my '05 TL at 132K miles and I can tell you that I haven't the slightest interest in the new TL. My vintage TL IMHO was one of the nicer looking cars on the road and Acura screwed up big time in going from very handsome to butt ugly (or beak-ugly). Don't underestimate appearance, as few people want to invest that type of money and drive an ugly car.

    Then there's the TSX - a car that went from sporty and handsome to not-as-ugly-as-the-TL, but bloated and not sharp handling any more. So Acura blew it on two of their top vehicles. That's a pretty sad story for a lineup that was a lot better 7 years ago than today.

    Then again, Buick is doing well with less- a compact sedan (Verano), a sporty/performance-oriented mid-size sedan (Regal) and near-full-size sedan (LaCrosse) along with a large Crossover (Enclave) and mini-crossover (Encore). In particular, the Encore is a joke compared to the RDX and the LaCrosse is no RLX. But somehow, Buick is more desirable than Acura to most buyers….

    Well, I'd say the Buicks are actually at least decent looking to attractive. Like I said, don't underestimate the power of ugly to ruin a brand. Buick is getting a lot better and Acura has gone the other direction. While I would never buy a Buick, I can see why they are improving relative to Acura.
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Posts: 198
    I passed on the generation TL you are driving because I thought Acura didnt do anything special from the 2nd generation. The car was still FWD with the horrific torque steer and the styling was just too on par with the Camry's and the Accords(no insults intended just my opinion). I had the 2nd generation Type S and talk about torque steer and horrible in the snow. When they did the mid year refresh with the Type S I was even more disappointed- talking about more Torque steer and horriblw wheels. The current generation sh-awd is worlds apart in driving dynamics to 3rd generation and I never been told that the car is ugly in almost four years of ownership.

    White Diamond Pearl
    35% Tint
    Wood Steering Wheel
    Wood Shift Knob
    Back Up Sensors
    A Whole lot of Zaino Shine

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 12,758
    Sales flop or not, I've got a thing for the current generation TL (in SH AWD guise). I personally don't like "the beak" of the 2009 - 2011 MY, but think the rest of the car looks fantastic. The wheels, the faux quad tail pipes are 2 styling points that really "make" the car.

    Sween - you are right that Acura took too long with the refresh or restyle.

    When is the TL replacement coming? 2015 MY? Acura dealers are already "giving them away" at below invoice prices. Who knows what kind of rebates, conquest cash, trunk money, & cheap financing they will throw the TL's way once they decide to "fire sale" in the coming months.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2015 Infiniti Q40 AWD, 2017 Honda Pilot Touring AWD

  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Waleska, GeorgiaPosts: 801
    "When is the TL replacement coming? 2015 MY? Acura dealers are already "giving them away" at below invoice prices. Who knows what kind of rebates, conquest cash, trunk money, & cheap financing they will throw the TL's way once they decide to "fire sale" in the coming months. "

    My expectation is that the TL replacement (TLX?) will be introduced very early in calendar year 2014 as a 2015 model.

    The recently announced 2013 TL Special Edition model (a 2013 model being introduced in June 2013 makes me wonder if there will be an official 2014 model) is the the kind of "high value" upgrade done to generate sales in a model's last days. The sticker price is only $1500 more than the 'Base' TL, but it adds-

    Ebony leather interior with contrast stitching
    18" 10-spoke Chrome-look alloy wheels
    Keyless Access System w/ Push-Button Ignition
    Body-colored decklid spoiler
    Special Edition Badging

    The wheels and spoiler really give the car a much nicer look. It only comes in four colors- Black, Pearl White, Silver and Graphite and all have the aforementioned Black Leather.

    Rumor has it that they're going to run a $299/mo lease special on it...
    2015.5 Volvo S60 T6 Drive-E Platinum, 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Posts: 198
    Not following any news on the upcoming TL- Dont know if I want another but thats still up in the air. They have to wow me- beefing up low end torque, over 340 HP and formula 1 performance and handling :). I like the 535/550 and A6/S6.
    Time wil tell- only 24K on the TL.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 12,758
    I'm going to purchase my next vehicle. Once the lease is up on my BMW, I want off of the "leasing hamster wheel."

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2015 Infiniti Q40 AWD, 2017 Honda Pilot Touring AWD

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 12,758
    With only 24K on your odometer (what year is your car again?), you really don't need a new car unless you want to buy one. Like you said, you need to be "wowed" because you do seem to be very happy with your current ride.

    I'm going to try and constrain my automotive budget for my next purchase, but I might just be tempted on a "lame duck" TL SH AWD if the price is right. As long as its not black.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2015 Infiniti Q40 AWD, 2017 Honda Pilot Touring AWD

  • flightnurseflightnurse Valley of HellPosts: 2,170
    Hey Bill the numbers that Sweeny quoted, were they HMC, that included the motorcycle and motorsport division or just the car divisions (when I say Car's I'm talking Honda and Acura) ?
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,978
    For anyone interested - the brochure is online - here:
    2016 BMW 340i
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 11,067
    nyc....billy....I mentioned that I just helped my sister buy a TL SH AWD Advance. I had forgotten how really GOOD they are. It seems Acura made some running engineering changes along the way that most wouldn't detect, unless you had an earlier model to compare it to. Given that you can buy one at a decent discount, it would be hard to be in the near luxury market and not seriously consider one.

    While I liked the pre -'12 design, I admit the redesign makes the current TL one of the classiest looking cars on the market, currently. Add in the torque vectoring rear giving it high handling limits, and the comfort of the sports seats, and the quality of the materials, and the high build quality, and the great stereo, the uber smooth drivetrain, MPG (She last told me she's getting 22 MPG in town and 28 MPG on the highway), etc. I found it very competitive.

    My sister bought hers for right around $40, give or take. That's a whole lot of car/performance for that kind of money. My S4 ran $10K+ over that amount and the TL SH AWD isn't that far off the performance mark (except acceleration, where the S4 will smoke many muscle cars, and the DSG trans).

    I think "markincinnati" pointed out that he went from an Audi to the TL. At first, I kind of scoffed. But, given the test drive I did with my sister and the TL upgrades, it makes perfect sense, now.

    I'm thinking I have another couple of years on my Audi S4 before I start to look again.

    The TL(X) will be released in 2015. It's been seen in testing areas under heavy camo. The TSX is going away. My guess is end of this year someone will see one without camo, and release will come roughly 12 months from now.

    Given Acura's move towards their 4 wheel steering with the RLX, and the way they take incremental steps in powertrain upgrades, I'm thinking they keep the 3.7, add direct injection, pump out another 10 HP and another 10 ft/lb. My hope is they keep the double wishbone instead of moving to coil overs.

    Will I be a buyer? Not sure. Too far away to tell.

    But, given what I know about the Benz, the Q, the BMW, Caddy, Audis, etc, I'll put the TL right there with them.

    Billy....hard to go wrong with the A6. It is probably close to what you're used to with the TL, sizewise. That Audi 3.0 SC is a sweetheart of a motor, though. The TL 3.7L is fast and smooth too, however.

    Good luck in your choice.
    2018 Acura TLX SH AWD ASpec
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 11,067
    ray....thanks for the post. I had forgotten about the IS (maybe that's why Lexus is moving more towards Audi/BMW/Mercedes turf).
    2018 Acura TLX SH AWD ASpec
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,300
    HMC numbers included all aspects of the biz, farm machines to jet planes. Its tough to get a clean balance sheet on a corporation without using all product lines.

    I can do a write up if you are as interested as billy was.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,181 said I was mocking you. Not intentional, just handing out some of the same medicine you do. I actually agree with you about 90% of the time. Just didn't make sense this time. Cheers.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,300
    Total MSRP*$55,205- wow thats pricy actually- i also went to the site on the sport model if you want just nav you have to select tech as well - package increased by 4k or so - NO thanks- i'll wait until the reviews come out and the true market pricing levels are established- I hope they allow the tech to be a standalone option at some pt.
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Posts: 198
    Car is a 2009 and its a purchase-8/17/09.
    I know I dont need a new car right now but I have the summer itch- just wish the wife had it too.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,300
    medicine not needed- again sales numbers tell a story- if a car is selling 50% less then they did 6 years ago its clearly not doing well. Plus throw in the avg selling price on such cars is lower then prime comp. Perfect sense to me. (both were backed up with fact, not opinion)
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,181
    You made a presumption that because the TL is heavily discounted that Acura, as a brand, was making little, if any, profit. I agree that they are taking a bath on the TL right now for many reasons probably none of which indicate that it is a bad car(not pretty but not bad). But, to extrapulate that out to state that the brand is not profitable is not is opinion or at best a WAG.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,863
    You made a presumption that because the TL is heavily discounted that Acura, as a brand, was making little, if any, profit. I agree that they are taking a bath on the TL right now for many reasons probably none of which indicate that it is a bad car(not pretty but not bad).

    I'll counter that the TL is probably still a very profitable profit for Acura/Honda. It's in it's 5th year of production so the tooling has been depreciated. They've perfected the manufacturing which drives down costs. All in all, it makes them plenty of money I'm sure.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,300
    is it my opionion thats based on sales of not just ONE car but 3 sedans and a ZDX.or 4 of 6 total products they produced in 2012.

    - it has more value then someone presuming margins on suvs are higher then sedans - ok i get it and have read the same comment before, but you think them selling 10k more MDXs make up for them selling 60k less TLS, and those said TLS are selling at a 10% discount to MSRP vs comps of 5% ??

    my original statement 5 years ago was acura is losing because of a stale product line- and it continues today
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,181
    Well, the operable word in your counter argument is "probably". Which means a guess. I have no idea if Acura can still make money selling the TL well below invoice. My guess would be that they aren't doing much better than breaking even on it but making it up in other areas or models. But that is a presumption in itself. Nothing wrong with a presumption, opinion or guess as long as someone doesn't try to pawn if off as something that everyone should accept as fact.
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