If the ELLPS Cadillac CTS is such a stinker, maybe a smart and bargain conscious shopper should choose a brand new 2006 Mazdaspeed 6 ELLPS with leather, nav, 6 speed stick, 270 HP, and the best brakes this side of a Ferrari, for about $24,000. High performance-wise, Mazdaspeed 6 beats nearly all the listed ELLPS here.
Hey lou, umm... take a look. Hab pointedly asked me to respond to HIS suggestion about comparing the Acura to the CTS-V. I'm just trying to keep him happy.
Got it joe, didn't read hab's post carefully, my bad.
I personally would NOT put TL-S and CTS-V in the same category. As I said before, one is a factory-tuner and the other has an optional bigger engine with stiffer suspension. Comparing these 2 is like comparing apples to pineapples...
"Yes, it is amazing to me that some people think a 6 CD changer makes a car more luxurious than a superior suspension."
It's amazing how some people here mimic the exact words of Car and Driver. It's amazing that to some people, nothing is more important then the upper 2/10ths of driving excitement that can rarely be experienced in todays traffic. It's also amazing how some people regard cars whose foundation is that of an $15k economy car as luxurious. It's amazing how the A4 is considered "superior" than the CTS in this forum when it uses yesterday's technology in a FWD chassis which weighs 3700 lbs with an unusable back seat on a 104" wheel base. I'm 5'11" and couldn't sit behind myself in one, I tried.
What I hear are excuses as to why BMWs cost so much. I will never take way from their driving involvement (spt pck only). However, why do we have to pay so much and get so little else in terms of the rest of the car? What you guys are basically telling me is that you're paying EXTRA for the chassis and that's it. BMW would never get my money because that's nonsense and cheats the customer out of his/her money.
I agree with others here, the difference between these cars is very slim. So slim in fact that I would easily take one of the less expensive more practical cars any day over a 335i sedan. Acura TL and IS350 have far superior cockpits compared to the 3 series. New '08 C class/CTS have better looking far more inspired designs from what I have seen in pics. New G35 looks far more inviting and aesthetically pleasing. In my book, chassis tuning is only part and not whole. Those cars offer a larger percentage of the pie for less money.
I understand everyone has their preference, but to pretend that cars other than Audis and BMWs can't be entertaining is balderdash.
Yes, lou. That was my point too! CTS-V is a raging dragon compared to the polite, no guts until you wind it up tight TL-S. TL-S is a nice little grocery-getter compared to race car CTS-V.
"any "premium" brand base model vehicle with no options is about the dumbest buy you can make."
Actually, I think it's the smartest buy you can make.
I absolutely agree, since that's more-or-less what I'm planning to do -- don't want but a few options (sport pkg, leather, audio). From the outside & at resale it'll look just like all the others, only more affordable.
While I've finally come to grips with the fact that my next car (that I'll treasure for its handling) is what most people consider a fashion accessory, that's certainly not a bad thing when it comes time to move on.
Much like having the least tricked-out & possibly smallest house in a luxury neighbourhood.
"maybe a smart and bargain conscious shopper should choose a brand new 2006 Mazdaspeed 6 ELLPS."
Don't forget the 286 HP Mitsubishi Evo IX ELLPS, the 303 HP Chevy Impala SS ELLPS, the 264 HP Kia Amanti ELLPS, the 269 HP Toyota RAV4 ELLPS, and the 252 HP Saturn Aura ELLPS...
I'm taking your word for it without reservation after having driven just the FWD five-door variant.
But, but, but... If I'm going to immerse myself in AWD, which is a second choice for me, I'm going Audi. I'll have to check the sport suspension box, but I haven't yet found another mfr who does it as well, IMO.
And of course I already consider their interior and exterior styling (the most subjective areas of course) the king of the hill...
If you are talking about the little BMW 3, then it and the smallest house in a luxury neighborhood are both fine, so long as you don't have to put a big family in either one of them.
Nah, none of those have the luxury/performance/price combination that a new 2006 Mazdaspeed 6 LTD possesses. It is a frickin' supercar bargain at $24,000 or so, completely loaded. With 274 horsepower, it does 99mph in the 1/4 mile in 14 seconds flat and 0-60 in 5.4 seconds and has a 149 mph top speed. 80% of its ample maximum torque is availabe as low as 2750 RPM and past the 100% torque peak you still get 80% or more of torque for the next 500 RPM. Also, if you need it for passengers, it has 96 cu.ft. volume. Yummy!
If you are talking about the little BMW 3, then it and the smallest house in a luxury neighborhood are both fine, so long as you don't have to put a big family in either one of them.
What's a "big family"? Are we talking two adults and a child? Two children? Anything over 2 kids and you're essentially squeezed out of the world of sedans. 2 kids of fewer = easily enough room in an e90. Heck, a Honda Civic sedan can easily accommodate 2 adults and 2 kids.
Having driven a MZ6, I'll take a pass. Regardless of price that AWD system, the silly gearing and the car's massive weight make it unsuitable for combo of fun/relaxed driving.
My shoppping list includes, in order: BMW 3, G35, C230 & CTS. If I reconsider my "RWD only" stance, the A3 jumps up in a hurry. They're all good, but some are better, and the reasons any one is considered so by anyone vary tremendously, depending upon who is doing the considering.
It's all good -- just sometimes a little bit better.
OK, since its up to me, I'll call a family of four or more people with heights ranging between 5'9" and 6'1" way too big to fit in the BMW 3 with any degree of comfort.
Gee, joe, hopefully a family of four or more people with heights ranging from 5'9 to 6'2 has more than just a BMW 3. Most likely a family like that will have a people mover, i.e. a SUV, van or at least full-size sedan.
I think the girl I am dating right now is quiet a catch since she told me she likes large cars... If everything goes well looks like my ELLPS days could live on longer than I expected. :P
I was thinking the same thing. If you've got 4 people over five-nine (which would never happen in my house given I'm five-seven and she's five-four), there's probably a second larger car or - more likely in my opinion - the kids have reached an age all 4 people won't be going anywhere together in one car.
1. start the car as you normally would with your TL 6-speed and 911S. 2. Step on the brake and gently shift the shifter into D (R if you are backing up). 3. Release the brake, step on the accelerator then off you go... "
4. ....Chug along mindlessly, come to a stoplight, try to depress the clutch (oops, that's the brake) and give your passengers whiplash....
Maybe I need one of those heads-up displays that projects a "Remember, this is an Automatic, Stupid" message on the windshield.
What you guys are basically telling me is that you're paying EXTRA for the chassis and that's it.
Exactly. It's called handling. It's called "feel." It's called whatever, but it's certainly called something you don't care about. Fine.
Some of us don't care about (or even want) the bells & whistles -- they often break. But the guts of the car -- straight six, refined suspension, that sort of thing -- can't be added as options. They're either there or they're not.
The added s*** (let's say stuff) is for those who care about it. I'm not one. "Back in the day" the phrase was, "if it don't go, chrome it." Form over substance, trying to impress others, rather than just enjoying driving your car -- maybe it's just that some people enjoy technology more than they enjoy driving. That's not a bad thing, but it's certainly not my thing.
Enjoy those bells & whistles, but try to recognize that some of us don't want them. We do (or I do anyway), however, love to blast around corners in unknown bits of Nevada at 5-10X the posted speed limit.
My car is not a fashion statement. It is a tool that allows me to enjoy driving. Sadly, I only get to exercise it a few days a year, but those are the days I remember years later. Driving is the thing, not the ****** car, at least in my world. I've had wonderful driving days in rental appliances -- rather have had my own car, but. . .
5'8", 5'8", 5'9", 6'1" here and we don't fit happily in 103 cu.ft. sedan, much less a 93 cu.ft. BMW 3 or Civic. So yeah, we've got the van besides, but I prefer the way the car drives, even with a couple complainers in the back seat.
Well, if we're going to discuss physics, bring it on. It's what I do for a living -- applied physics actually, otherwise known as engineering.
The 5-10X statement, which I'm assuming is the one to which you're taking issue, works out like this:
In the West (and other areas I'm sure, certainly in Canada), where it freezes in the winter, things appear on the roads in the spring called "frost heaves." Posted speed limits in those areas try to protect: 1) the suspensions of most cars, but more importantly, 2) the roads themselves from Class 8 trucks that hit them at high speeds. Point being, the limit can be as low as 5 mph. I don't have a problem going over them at 50 -- my car has an actual suspension.
The 5X has more to do with the posted cornering speeds on the road between the whorehouse at the intersection of US 95 & Nevada 266 and Big Pine, CA (the CA state highway number becomes 168). This road rules -- I love it. It's in the middle of nowhere & has almost no traffic on it. I've taken every vehicle I've owned since 1970 (except the KW) over it, and it demands (and rewards) attention. Many of the corners are posted at 10, but it's perfectly possible to go around them at 50 and have a good time in the bargain. If you're not paying attention &/or don't know the road, you can die. If you are, you can live, big time. This road (among many others) is why I own cars -- to drive them.
I'm not talking about Interstate mind-numbing appliance driving here, but that's not all bad either. I'd much rather spend the day (as I did today) driving from east of Indianapolis to LaPorte than sitting at my desk back in Phoenix.
"It's amazing that to some people, nothing is more important then the upper 2/10ths of driving excitement that can rarely be experienced in todays traffic."
"What I hear are excuses as to why BMWs cost so much. I will never take way from their driving involvement (spt pck only). However, why do we have to pay so much and get so little else in terms of the rest of the car?"
I agree with others here, the difference between these cars is very slim. So slim in fact that I would easily take one of the less expensive more practical cars any day over a 335i sedan."
Chavis10, what you're not acknowledging is the fact that some people place a higher value on performance, and less value on features/appearance, than you do. The differences that are "so slim" to you may be huge to someone else.
Ask me why I prefer BMW to Cadillac or Lexus. Easy, for the same reason why I tell time on an Omega wristwatch instead of a Seiko, or why I listen to music on Revel loudspeakers instead of Bose. It's because I perceive and appreciate the difference in quality and performance, and the added expense is worth it to me.
Most people think spending $40,000 on a BMW with vinyl seats is a rip-off. The same argument holds true for $4,000 stereo loudspeakers or a $1,600 wristwatch. The point is clear - if you can't tell or don't care about the difference, don't spend the money.
When I'm purchasing a "high dollar" item that I am enthusiastic about, I buy quality, not quantity. Be it a car or a waterheater, I will always choose a quality engineered product with "no frills" over a trinket festooned with buttons and lights - and my 20 year-old BMW and 16 year-old Omega (which both still look and perform like new) have more than validated my philosophy.
The BMW and Audi non-sport/standard suspensions still use superior engineering and components to many other econoboxes. You don't have to get the sport suspension to get fine handling from these vehicles. However, for those times when you want to have some real FAST cornering fun, the sport suspension makes it just that much better.
'21 BMW X3 M40i, '15 Audi S4, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Oh, ok, 5x5=25. I can do that one in my head. The lowest recommended speed (not legal limit) yellow signs I've seen around here are hairpin mountain switchback hairpins showing 15 mph. I don't believe even the best driver in a lotus could negotiate them at 75 mph without going off a cliff or smashing into the mountain face. You're the physics guy. Just because you can take a 5 mph curve at 25 or 50 does not mean you could take a 30 mph curve at at 150 or 300. As the posted speeds increase above 5 or 10 mph your 5x to 10x soon becomes impossible, right? Even with well engineered suspensions, is it also true generally that the heavier the car the slower its cornering ability?
"4. ....Chug along mindlessly, come to a stoplight, try to depress the clutch (oops, that's the brake) and give your passengers whiplash...."
That's funny and brings back memories as when I received my first company car (Olds Delta 88! Slush-o-rama, of course), after 15 years of driving 5 speed sticks, my left foot was constantly reaching for the clutch! Now, my left foot mostly looks up at me in disgust (slushing along since the evil wife gave up rowing her own Saab in '02) and boredom...
Interesting converstations here and always fun watching folks so stridently trying to prove a point and bring the not-alike thinkers over from the dark side.
My thoughts on perceived value: It is subjective and relative, in the eye of the beholder. If, after performing all due dilligence, I decide that a BMW 3 loaded to the gills is the ride that will put a smile on my face vs. a G, TL, CTS, A4 et. al., and I've negotiated the best price that I believe I could have, then what a great value that is! If you want a BMW, you pay a BMW price. If you end up with your second choice for ~$5k less, but think I could have had a V8, is that as good a value?
Someone posed the question regarding what do you get when you buy a BMW, MB, Audi, etc. Beyond the car and its inherent attributes, you do get the badge which can connote different things that may add "value". Take MB: There is a certain heritage and history that the three-pointed star represents including the genesis of the auto, important innovations in the evolution of the auto and a reputation for "bank vault" build, for example. This may mean nada to some, but to the buyer of the car there is great value. Why do I own a (TAG) Heuer, Omega and IWC wristwatch (among others)? Do they keep better time than a Citzen/Seiko/Invicta? Nope, but there is a history behind the Swiss brands that adds value TO ME (especially IWC as it is Swiss with New England roots). 99% of the population wouldn't know the difference between an IWC and an Invicta and would certainly think me a loon for spending a bit more on the IWC, but I enjoy it immensely. A good value to me, not to the other 99%. But they just do not count, I am not spending their money.
And I think there is one thing we can all agree on: That the current CTS is ugly with a dreadful interior! The '08, in pix, looks to be a major improvement...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Not sure what the win, lose, member is all about. Any of the ELLPS would be fine on those roads I guess. A Mazda Miata would probably be a lot better. But I am not a good enough driver to think I could do 5x to 10x the posted speeds. Sounds scary to me, I'd go slow in any of them, probably not much more than 50% over the recommended speed in good weather. Like maybe a taking a posted 40 mph curve at 60 mph. That's a big enough thrill for me in my cars. But I don't have a sporty handling car. I'm pretty sure better cars and drivers could take those at maybe double the sign numbers.
No doubt. Has anyone ever seen Michael Schumacher in a Formula 1 race car take those hairpin turns at 75?!?!? I think it's an exaggeration that any ELLPS could do it.
I think the only brand worth paying for in the entry level luxury genre is clearly BMW, given their essential creation of the genre and leadership over nearly 40 years. While you may debate whether dynamically they may have been surpassed at different points (G35, various other attempts), in image they clearly are unsurpassed as an aspirational vehicle. Whether it's worth it to the individual purchases is one thing, but the buying populace as a whole has judged the BMW 3 series worth it.
Why does "creation of the genre and leadership over nearly 40 years" make the "brand" worth paying for? The value is in today's car, now. Admittedly part of what a BMW is is its history, but that's in the feel of the car as it has evolved.
You say that "in image they are clearly unsurpassed as an aspirational vehicle". Frankly, all this could put me off mine a bit -- if I didn't like it so much.
I luv BlueGuy because he can NEVER be satisfied...he should run the new GM/Chrysler Group!! We might get some good cars in the US way quicker than the Accountants have been able to evolve!!
BTW, I am also sure his finance could turn around F.O.R.D.!!
Shipo and Habitat1 would be in charge od design for all of these!
Cadillac -- need to drive the new one. I like the look of the soon-to-be new Jag S-type, but not sure if it qualifies, and its an old chassis. Others, not really interested -- no like.
More propaganda that cannot be proven. Have you seen side by side kinematics of BMW/Audi suspensions compared to the competition? Have you seen the bill-of-materials for these suspension components? Are not the rear control arms/links in the 3 series stamped steel as opposed to cast aluminum. I can all but guarantee you that the aluminum intensive suspension package on a CTS costs more to manufacture and implement than the 3 series. Hold on to your hat, I already said the 3 series is the handler of the class, however let's not start this overly optimistic speculation as to why. I'm not arguing that the 3 (spt pkg) isn't the best handling in the class, it is. But let's leave it at that and stop assuming inaccurate information.
I'm confused as to why BMW/Audi are being compared to "other econoboxes?" Aren't we talking ELLPS? The A3 is the only econobox that cost a lot of money and it's not included in this subset of vehicles.
You're proving my point. The 3 series is a small niche car appealing to the purist. For those of you who are exaggerating the abilities of the 3 to where it can somehow perform maneuvers that other cars can not, it fits the bill. No argument there. I like good handling just as much next but I take it into perspective if agreeing to own/lease a car for a few years time. That is my point, let's stop the exaggeration of pretending that other competitors cannot be entertaining compared to the 3 for owners who need and demand a better rounded package with more value (someone like me and I'm sure many others even if they are members here). The 3 loses when those factors are considered.
If we were talking about the 335i 2dr, you'd have no argument from me because it's a coupe and the size/utility compromises of the sedan wouldn't apply in that market. I like that car (still wouldn't wanna pay extra for it though).
Comments
High performance-wise, Mazdaspeed 6 beats nearly all the listed ELLPS here.
I'm just trying to keep him happy.
I personally would NOT put TL-S and CTS-V in the same category. As I said before, one is a factory-tuner and the other has an optional bigger engine with stiffer suspension. Comparing these 2 is like comparing apples to pineapples...
Thank you sir, for your support. I happen to drive an old (107K miles 2000) Lincoln LS & agree 100%.
I also absolutely agree that Lincoln has fallen completely off the map as far a "performance" anything is concerned.
It's amazing how some people here mimic the exact words of Car and Driver. It's amazing that to some people, nothing is more important then the upper 2/10ths of driving excitement that can rarely be experienced in todays traffic. It's also amazing how some people regard cars whose foundation is that of an $15k economy car as luxurious. It's amazing how the A4 is considered "superior" than the CTS in this forum when it uses yesterday's technology in a FWD chassis which weighs 3700 lbs with an unusable back seat on a 104" wheel base. I'm 5'11" and couldn't sit behind myself in one, I tried.
What I hear are excuses as to why BMWs cost so much. I will never take way from their driving involvement (spt pck only). However, why do we have to pay so much and get so little else in terms of the rest of the car? What you guys are basically telling me is that you're paying EXTRA for the chassis and that's it. BMW would never get my money because that's nonsense and cheats the customer out of his/her money.
I agree with others here, the difference between these cars is very slim. So slim in fact that I would easily take one of the less expensive more practical cars any day over a 335i sedan. Acura TL and IS350 have far superior cockpits compared to the 3 series. New '08 C class/CTS have better looking far more inspired designs from what I have seen in pics. New G35 looks far more inviting and aesthetically pleasing. In my book, chassis tuning is only part and not whole. Those cars offer a larger percentage of the pie for less money.
I understand everyone has their preference, but to pretend that cars other than Audis and BMWs can't be entertaining is balderdash.
Well, you can put one on that very short list -- me. The CTS is on my list, but not in the top 3. It's on there, though.
CTS-V is a raging dragon compared to the polite, no guts until you wind it up tight TL-S.
TL-S is a nice little grocery-getter compared to race car CTS-V.
Actually, I think it's the smartest buy you can make.
I absolutely agree, since that's more-or-less what I'm planning to do -- don't want but a few options (sport pkg, leather, audio). From the outside & at resale it'll look just like all the others, only more affordable.
While I've finally come to grips with the fact that my next car (that I'll treasure for its handling) is what most people consider a fashion accessory, that's certainly not a bad thing when it comes time to move on.
Much like having the least tricked-out & possibly smallest house in a luxury neighbourhood.
Don't forget the 286 HP Mitsubishi Evo IX ELLPS, the 303 HP Chevy Impala SS ELLPS, the 264 HP Kia Amanti ELLPS, the 269 HP Toyota RAV4 ELLPS, and the 252 HP Saturn Aura ELLPS...
But, but, but... If I'm going to immerse myself in AWD, which is a second choice for me, I'm going Audi. I'll have to check the sport suspension box, but I haven't yet found another mfr who does it as well, IMO.
And of course I already consider their interior and exterior styling (the most subjective areas of course) the king of the hill...
BTW, just saw the Aura commercial on TV last night, I think now Saturn has officially referred to Aura as a "sports sedan". :surprise:
Also, if you need it for passengers, it has 96 cu.ft. volume.
Yummy!
What's a "big family"? Are we talking two adults and a child? Two children? Anything over 2 kids and you're essentially squeezed out of the world of sedans. 2 kids of fewer = easily enough room in an e90. Heck, a Honda Civic sedan can easily accommodate 2 adults and 2 kids.
My shoppping list includes, in order: BMW 3, G35, C230 & CTS. If I reconsider my "RWD only" stance, the A3 jumps up in a hurry. They're all good, but some are better, and the reasons any one is considered so by anyone vary tremendously, depending upon who is doing the considering.
It's all good -- just sometimes a little bit better.
I think the girl I am dating right now is quiet a catch since she told me she likes large cars...
1. start the car as you normally would with your TL 6-speed and 911S.
2. Step on the brake and gently shift the shifter into D (R if you are backing up).
3. Release the brake, step on the accelerator then off you go... "
4. ....Chug along mindlessly, come to a stoplight, try to depress the clutch (oops, that's the brake) and give your passengers whiplash....
Maybe I need one of those heads-up displays that projects a "Remember, this is an Automatic, Stupid" message on the windshield.
Exactly. It's called handling. It's called "feel." It's called whatever, but it's certainly called something you don't care about. Fine.
Some of us don't care about (or even want) the bells & whistles -- they often break. But the guts of the car -- straight six, refined suspension, that sort of thing -- can't be added as options. They're either there or they're not.
The added s*** (let's say stuff) is for those who care about it. I'm not one. "Back in the day" the phrase was, "if it don't go, chrome it." Form over substance, trying to impress others, rather than just enjoying driving your car -- maybe it's just that some people enjoy technology more than they enjoy driving. That's not a bad thing, but it's certainly not my thing.
Enjoy those bells & whistles, but try to recognize that some of us don't want them. We do (or I do anyway), however, love to blast around corners in unknown bits of Nevada at 5-10X the posted speed limit.
My car is not a fashion statement. It is a tool that allows me to enjoy driving. Sadly, I only get to exercise it a few days a year, but those are the days I remember years later. Driving is the thing, not the ****** car, at least in my world. I've had wonderful driving days in rental appliances -- rather have had my own car, but. . .
So yeah, we've got the van besides, but I prefer the way the car drives, even with a couple complainers in the back seat.
Oh yeah it can be added. The base BMW 3 doesn't come with sports package you know...
Yeah, I've done that too switching from usual stick to an automatic.
Really makes a guy feel dumb.
The 5-10X statement, which I'm assuming is the one to which you're taking issue, works out like this:
In the West (and other areas I'm sure, certainly in Canada), where it freezes in the winter, things appear on the roads in the spring called "frost heaves." Posted speed limits in those areas try to protect: 1) the suspensions of most cars, but more importantly, 2) the roads themselves from Class 8 trucks that hit them at high speeds. Point being, the limit can be as low as 5 mph. I don't have a problem going over them at 50 -- my car has an actual suspension.
The 5X has more to do with the posted cornering speeds on the road between the whorehouse at the intersection of US 95 & Nevada 266 and Big Pine, CA (the CA state highway number becomes 168). This road rules -- I love it. It's in the middle of nowhere & has almost no traffic on it. I've taken every vehicle I've owned since 1970 (except the KW) over it, and it demands (and rewards) attention. Many of the corners are posted at 10, but it's perfectly possible to go around them at 50 and have a good time in the bargain. If you're not paying attention &/or don't know the road, you can die. If you are, you can live, big time. This road (among many others) is why I own cars -- to drive them.
I'm not talking about Interstate mind-numbing appliance driving here, but that's not all bad either. I'd much rather spend the day (as I did today) driving from east of Indianapolis to LaPorte than sitting at my desk back in Phoenix.
"What I hear are excuses as to why BMWs cost so much. I will never take way from their driving involvement (spt pck only). However, why do we have to pay so much and get so little else in terms of the rest of the car?"
I agree with others here, the difference between these cars is very slim. So slim in fact that I would easily take one of the less expensive more practical cars any day over a 335i sedan."
Chavis10, what you're not acknowledging is the fact that some people place a higher value on performance, and less value on features/appearance, than you do. The differences that are "so slim" to you may be huge to someone else.
Ask me why I prefer BMW to Cadillac or Lexus. Easy, for the same reason why I tell time on an Omega wristwatch instead of a Seiko, or why I listen to music on Revel loudspeakers instead of Bose. It's because I perceive and appreciate the difference in quality and performance, and the added expense is worth it to me.
Most people think spending $40,000 on a BMW with vinyl seats is a rip-off. The same argument holds true for $4,000 stereo loudspeakers or a $1,600 wristwatch. The point is clear - if you can't tell or don't care about the difference, don't spend the money.
When I'm purchasing a "high dollar" item that I am enthusiastic about, I buy quality, not quantity. Be it a car or a waterheater, I will always choose a quality engineered product with "no frills" over a trinket festooned with buttons and lights - and my 20 year-old BMW and 16 year-old Omega (which both still look and perform like new) have more than validated my philosophy.
The lowest recommended speed (not legal limit) yellow signs I've seen around here are hairpin mountain switchback hairpins showing 15 mph. I don't believe even the best driver in a lotus could negotiate them at 75 mph without going off a cliff or smashing into the mountain face.
You're the physics guy. Just because you can take a 5 mph curve at 25 or 50 does not mean you could take a 30 mph curve at at 150 or 300. As the posted speeds increase above 5 or 10 mph your 5x to 10x soon becomes impossible, right?
Even with well engineered suspensions, is it also true generally that the heavier the car the slower its cornering ability?
I lose.
You do indeed have the bigger member.
Tell me some more about your preferred vehicle on the kinds of roads I've described.
That's funny and brings back memories as when I received my first company car (Olds Delta 88!
Interesting converstations here and always fun watching folks so stridently trying to prove a point and bring the not-alike thinkers over from the dark side.
My thoughts on perceived value: It is subjective and relative, in the eye of the beholder. If, after performing all due dilligence, I decide that a BMW 3 loaded to the gills is the ride that will put a smile on my face vs. a G, TL, CTS, A4 et. al., and I've negotiated the best price that I believe I could have, then what a great value that is! If you want a BMW, you pay a BMW price. If you end up with your second choice for ~$5k less, but think I could have had a V8, is that as good a value?
Someone posed the question regarding what do you get when you buy a BMW, MB, Audi, etc. Beyond the car and its inherent attributes, you do get the badge which can connote different things that may add "value". Take MB: There is a certain heritage and history that the three-pointed star represents including the genesis of the auto, important innovations in the evolution of the auto and a reputation for "bank vault" build, for example. This may mean nada to some, but to the buyer of the car there is great value. Why do I own a (TAG) Heuer, Omega and IWC wristwatch (among others)? Do they keep better time than a Citzen/Seiko/Invicta? Nope, but there is a history behind the Swiss brands that adds value TO ME (especially IWC as it is Swiss with New England roots). 99% of the population wouldn't know the difference between an IWC and an Invicta and would certainly think me a loon for spending a bit more on the IWC, but I enjoy it immensely. A good value to me, not to the other 99%. But they just do not count, I am not spending their money.
And I think there is one thing we can all agree on: That the current CTS is ugly with a dreadful interior!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Any of the ELLPS would be fine on those roads I guess. A Mazda Miata would probably be a lot better.
But I am not a good enough driver to think I could do 5x to 10x the posted speeds. Sounds scary to me, I'd go slow in any of them, probably not much more than 50% over the recommended speed in good weather. Like maybe a taking a posted 40 mph curve at 60 mph. That's a big enough thrill for me in my cars. But I don't have a sporty handling car.
I'm pretty sure better cars and drivers could take those at maybe double the sign numbers.
You say that "in image they are clearly unsurpassed as an aspirational vehicle". Frankly, all this could put me off mine a bit -- if I didn't like it so much.
BMW
Infinity
Audi
MB
Lexus
Acura
Cadillac
Regards,
OW
BTW, I am also sure his finance could turn around F.O.R.D.!!
Shipo and Habitat1 would be in charge od design for all of these!
Regrds,
OW
Saab
Audi (reliability?)
Volvo
Cadillac -- need to drive the new one. I like the look of the soon-to-be new Jag S-type, but not sure if it qualifies, and its an old chassis. Others, not really interested -- no like.
I'm confused as to why BMW/Audi are being compared to "other econoboxes?" Aren't we talking ELLPS? The A3 is the only econobox that cost a lot of money and it's not included in this subset of vehicles.
Amen.
If we were talking about the 335i 2dr, you'd have no argument from me because it's a coupe and the size/utility compromises of the sedan wouldn't apply in that market. I like that car (still wouldn't wanna pay extra for it though).