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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans
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I wonder what the families of all of the people who have died in car fires (including ones involving Honda Odysseys) would say to that? I doub't they would think thats cute and funny...
-Adam
http://www.pbs.org/mpt/motorweek/driverschoice.shtml
I read their Road Test of the Chrysler, not bad. Then I searched their site to see what they had to say about the Honda Odyssey, Toyota Siena and the Ford Windstar. And you know what I discovered? That they did not road test the Odyssey or the Siena and the last time they Road tested the Windstar was back in 1995.
That is about the only type of test that Chrysler minivans can win, one where the other competitors aren't tested.
But I am glad you guys respect what the automotive authorities are saying. Here are a few others that you will appreciate:
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/ features/2001/october/200110_preview_
hondaodyssey.xml? keywords=Odyssey
http://www.motortrend.com/news/stories/
010808ho.html
http://www.automobilemag.com/buyers_guide/
CarDisplay.cfm?ID=1832
http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/details/
honda01odyssey/expreviews.html?review=edmunds
One thing is for sure, the Odyssey is the new status quo as far as minivans go. They get good reviews. Have a good price at MSRP. Have some clever features like the magic seat and plenty of cargo room. They have a good resale value and crash test scores. And they are hard to get.
What a perfect automobile.
If a magazine liked Motor Trend were to compare the Odyssey to the Town & Country based upon "what a minivan does best", as edmunds.com says, the Odyssey would probably win. However, if they were to test those two vans based upon performance and comfort features, I think it's safe to say the Town & Country would win.
According to edmunds.com the Town & Country is a "driver's minivan." It has a engine and transmission that work together better than that of the Odyssey, it has much better breaking, handling, drivers position, ect. Just read their minivan comparison test. The Chrysler beat the Odyssey in almost all of the various categories.
-Adam
.....Our GC SE is better for us with the built in child safety seat to take grandchildren and the comfort of separately controlled temperature for the driver and front passenger.
.....We have a much better quality sound system with the Infinity 200 Watt 10 speaker with Cassette AND CD but road noise on cement interstate highways on each minivan negate that additional quality of ours. The Odyssey automatic temperature HVAC works flawlessly and the front fan has many speeds whereas our DC has only 5 speed fan and we must control temperature manually. Both have cast wheels and both are white.
"How long will the anemic, unpopular original Honda Odyssey rebadged as an Isuzu Oasis sit on lots before they are all sold?"
I recently bought a used old style Ody as our second car (first is a 00 Ody). They don't sit on used lots long and they have not depreciated as much as I would have liked. For those who want that style vehicle, there aren't any real choices in the US (there are overseas). Anyway, my understanding is that the trickle of sales of the Oasis is because some of the dealers who had new ones when the supply dried up did not panic and fire sale them but held out for premium prices. While it is not very powerful, it has been proven quite reliable (as some say, it is pretty much a tall Accord). JD Power recently rated it the best 5 year old used van to buy now. I bought mine at a Honda dealer for a couple of reasons - I got a HondaCare extended warranty in place before I ever left the lot and the previous owners traded it to buy another Honda (so it probably treated him/her well).
I am not sure why US consumers don't like the tall wagon - small van concept. I do understand why some want the option of a bigger engine, though the "little" Accord engine in the old Ody pushes it along just fine unless you load it heavily. Then it is a bit sluggish but is always up to speed in plenty of time to merge onto the freeway.
You'll find that most vans have arrived at the same mechanical design - based on a front-drive chassis. The styling you can drape around such a platform will not vary that much.
Remember that the first Japanese vans in the U.S. were derived from delivery vehicles used commercially in Japan - they weren't specifically designed as passenger carriers.
And also remember that as the Toyota and Honda, et. al., entries have progressed, they've significantly dented Chrysler Group's market share - by providing things that Chrysler Group doesn't (and also by siphoning off sales of those who would never buy another Chrysler Group van because of bad experiences with current or past ones - - - there are plenty of those folks out there; just look around).
For example if you combine the following three lines into a single unseperated URL it works just fine:
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/ features/2001/october/200110_preview_
hondaodyssey.xml? keywords=Odyssey
And 4adodge knows that given how active he is on these boards but he is being his usual [non-permissible content removed] 16 year old self. And regarding your comments any reviewer will have different likes and dislikes about any given van, and them stating that in their review only indicate their true attempt at trying to be as objective as possible. And such comments are valuable since some of those likes and dislikes are likely to very important for certain people.
However, please do not take one or two such areas where a T&C is preferrred over the Odyssey as final judgment on which is the better van. If you read those articles fully (and I know you did)you will find that in every instance (taking into consideration all of the pluses and minuses of each van) the Odyssey was consistently rated number one. Now if every single automotive authority comes to the same conclusion don't you think that this probably represensts what the majority of people value in a minivan?
Also, you keep going back to how the Chrysler vans perform better, as someone stated earlier most of the comparisons were doen on 2001 vehicles. For 2002 the Odyssey significantly increased horsepower, torque, suspension and noise. What will be your argument when the 2002 vans begin to be compared and the Odyssey blows away the Chrysler vans in the only area you claim the Chrysler vans are better? Will you then claim that the Chrysler vans are better because the have a softer arm rest? or that it has an automatic lift gate opener? Cause that is all you will have left. Or are you going to keep going back to how Chrysler sells more vans? The only reason that is the case is because they are the first to come out with minivans in the US and they cover every segment of the market. I can assure you that if Honda ever decided to sell minivans in the $16,000 - $24,000 price range that Chrysler's rein there will end as well. And lastly lets not forget that Chrysler has been losing market share in the minivan catagory for the last decade. Guess who is taking it away?
Once again for all of those comparing the purchase of either of these vans please take whatever you hear and read with a grain of salt, there are many people whoa re posting on these boards with a bias. I suggest do your own research and make your own conclusions as to which van better meets your specific needs.
Here's a "direct" link to that Car & Driver Odyssey article:
Car & Driver Odyssey Preview.
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Yes, indeed, there are many people posting on these boards that are biased. I am one of them. Yourself included. Yes, my family along with millions of others each year do their own research and then make an informed buying decision on which minivan to buy. We choose the Chrysler Town & Country for its style, handling, ride, comfort features, and price. Not everyone chooses the Honda, that is quite clear by looking at the sales charts.
Just 15 minutes ago I saw a new 2002 Grand Caravan ES AWD roll down the street. Odyssey owners like Akin67 would ask, "how in the world could anyone choose a CHRYSLER minivan over the beloved, perfect, emaculate, awward-winning Honda Odyssey!!???" Then he would put his hand on his forehead and desperately ponder the big question...WHY!!!?!?!??!?!
Why? Could it be because they liked the tri zone automatic climate control? Could it be because they liked the convience of having a power rear liftgate? Could it be because they wanted the reasurance of having all wheel drive traction? Could it be because they wanted an auto-leveling rear suspension? Could it be because they wanted a center powered console? Could it be because they like music and wanted a quality Infinity sound system? Or maybe it was the price? Or I think it could have been the sleek exterior design? Or maybe because they wanted the split rear bench seat? Or maybe because they wanted an AutoStick transmission? Or perhaps because they have had good experienes with Chrysler vans?
Take your pick, Akin67.
Oh and lets not forget, it could also have been because the Chrysler vans actually have basics like PADDED ARMRESTS. No wonder the Chrysler vans are more comfortable! It took Honda three years to have leather as an option on their beautiful and perfect Odyssey!
As for the power increase in the Odyssey for the 2002 model year, more horsepower doesn't mean the Odyssey will be a better performer than the Chrysler vans. Especially with an engine that has to rev to 5k+ RPMs just to get it's max horsepower. As edmunds.com says about it's 2001 long-term road test Grand Caravan SE, the 3.8L V6 engine has a large and impressive range of torque and hp. I don't think the same can be said about the Odyssey, especially in the pre 2002 models but we will let future comparisons settle this debate...
As for Chrysler sales, Honda isn't the only one taking sales away from Chrysler as Ford and Toyota are doing their part as well. Five or six years ago Chrysler had no real competition and enjoyed that for many years. The same cannot be said for today. I may be 16 but my common sense tells me that the more competitors there are in any given market, regardless of the quality of products they make, they will take sales away from "the sales leader." Does this suprise you, akin67? Because it does not suprise me.
As for whats next, I think I'll pick on the Odyssey's weak rear suspension and how it doesn't handle turns as nicely as vans like the Chrysler Town & Country do.
And for your information, there are alot of other wiseasses besides myself out there surfing these boards. And guess what kind of vans they drive?
BTW, your link still doesn't work...too bad.
-Adam
think of what we mean to the world and what we get in return.
CNN Headline News did a short news listing regarding Ford and
GM`s contributions to the relief and recovery efforts in New York and Washington. The findings are as follows.....
1. Ford- $1 million to American Red Cross matching employee
contributions of the same number plus 10 Excursions to NY Fire Dept. The company also offered ER response team services and office space to displaced government employees.
2. GM- $1 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions of the same number and a fleet of vans, SUV`s, and trucks.
3. Daimler Chrysler- $10 million to support of the children and victims of the Sept. 11 attack.
4. Harley Davidson motorcycles- $1 million and 30 new motorcycles to the New York Police Dept.
5. Volkswagen- Employees and management created a Sept. 11 Foundation, funded initial with $2 million, for the assistance of the children and victims of the WTC.
6. Hyundai- $300,000 to the American Red Cross.
7. Audi- Nothing.
8. BMW- Nothing.
9. Daewoo- Nothing.
10. Fiat- Nothing.
11. Honda- Nothing despite boasting of second best sales month ever in August 2001
12. Isuzu- Nothing.
13. Mitsubishi- Nothing.
14. Nissan- Nothing.
15. Porsche- Nothing. Press release with condolences via the
Porsche website.
16. Subaru- Nothing.
17. Suzuki- Nothing.
18. Toyota- Nothing despite claims of high sales in July and
August 2001. Condolences posted on the website.
Thats not all. The Chrysler Town & Country also ranked higher in a previous JD Powers & Associates survey of the most satisfied new car owners as it was ranked highest out of all other minivans. While I don't have a link to a site to back this up, I remember reading it a few months ago on carpoint.com. I encourage you skeptics out there to find the report I'm talking about if you don't believe me.
Click here to see the report on a survey taken on car audio systems...
http://carpoint.msn.com/browse/win_4020807.asp?src=Home&pos=Edit5
-Adam (16/M/CA)
00 T&C LX with a VERY LOUD Infinity Acustic 10 system w/200 watts
A quick search on goggle.com for "Auto Firms Mobilize Attack Relief Efforts" shows counterpoint stories about Honda and Porsche's contributions, among others (check the cached stories for 9-26-01 for a good example).
Bah humbug!
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
You don't know how amazing I thought our '88 Grand Voyager was with it's digital compass and temperature readout and of course the power seat. Back in 1988, stuff like the overhead consol, power seat, and all the nooks and crannies were pretty darn cool.
So Why did I choose the 2001? Because I wanted the new luxuries and other than rattles and phantom wipers, my 1996 T&C was flawless. I figured why mess with success.
But I do understand why some of these people are pro-Honda. I had a Chevy Vega, rated Motor Trend's Car of the Year twice in a row, thinking it was reliable transportation. That was before it rusted out and backfired after two years, which caught the car on fire, almost killing my dog who was riding in the back seat. Did GM do anything about it? No. It took them a long while to change what they did.
So when my son needed a car, we looked around. Should we go with the 2001 Pontiac Grand Am with CD changer, leather, alloys, and power seat for $14,000, or should we go with the 2001 Honda Civic EX with sunroof, height adjustable seat, CD player, and air conditioning for a negotiated price of $16,800?
Needless to say, we went with the Honda. It may not have had the luxuries the GM cars have on them, but I felt better knowingly giving him reliable transportation from a company with a VERY good reputation and a 5 star frontal crash rating and "Best Pick" offset crash rating. I'm sorry, but when we're dealing with a 16 year-old driver, I'd like to make sure his car is as safe as possible.
If we were new parents now, would we go with the Honda van? Maybe, who knows? The point is, I was burned by GM, and won't ever get another GM car. Some people here were burned by Chrysler. I don't care how often someone can tell me GM is more reliable now than it was in 1972, the point is I'll never buy another one again as my little protest, regardless of the fact that they give you more bang for your buck.
So 4adodge, you should understand that while the Chrysler may have more luxury, style (subjective), and better handling, someone buying an Odyssey is NOT making a bad choice. They may have minor problems on them, but the Odyssey doesn't have 17 years of a bad reputation haunting it like Chrysler. I've been lucky to have such reliable Chrysler vans minus the electrical problems of the 1988 van, and who knows where Honda will be 17 years down the line in terms of reliability? But I'm guessing they'll learn from Chrysler's faux pas and keep the Odyssey as reliable as can be. Everyone has a choice and shouldn't be berated for not choosing the latter.
From carandtrucknews.com I offer the following;
DC COMMITS 10 MILLION TO HELP CHILDREN OF VICTIMS
DaimlerChrysler is committing $10 million, through the DaimlerChrysler Corporation Fund, to support the children of victims of the terrorist attacks. Additional donations from members of the DaimlerChrysler family around the globe, including employees, dealers and suppliers will be established through the Fund, said DaimlerChrysler AG Chairman Jurgen E. Schrempp.
"In these difficult hours, for the civilized world and especially for the American people, we want to send a signal of humanity and solidarity," said Schrempp. "The attacks have deeply affected the lives and futures of many children who have lost a mother or father. While this can never replace the void in these childrens lives, it can help give them renewed hope."
In addition, DaimlerChrysler employees, dealers and suppliers around the world have expressed a desire to help in this effort. As a result, DaimlerChrysler will open an account so that contributions can be made from the DaimlerChrysler family around the globe.
The money will be used for various kinds of support, including educational needs.
In the United States, contributions can be made to the "œDaimlerChrysler Help the Children Fund" by sending checks to the DaimlerChrysler Corporation Fund, PO Box 218006, Auburn Hills, Michigan, USA 48321-9955 (CIMS 485-02-46).
In Germany, contributions can be made through Deutsche Bank, Stuttgart, BLZ: 600 700 70, Kontonummer: 100 000.
FLY YOUR FLAG
Posted: 09/13/2001
Source: DC/
http://www.jdpower.com/index.html
I hope you like fruitcake, steve!
-Adam
The list is somewhat accurate and somewhat of an urban legend according to snopes.com. They found that Audi, BMW, Honda, Mitusubishi, Nissan, Subaru and Toyota did indeed contribute to the relief efforts.
Check it out: http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/cars.htm
Pardon the intrusion, but we hosts - and more importantly, we fruitcake haters - gotsta stick together! ;->
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
http://www.google.com/search? q=cache:wWaReNOOULA:www.latimes.com/class/ highway1/20010926/t000076993.html+Auto+Firms+Mobilize+Attack+Relief+Efforts+&hl=en
That's just one article and it mentions various contributions by Honda, Isuzu, Porsche, etc. So I still don't think I have to eat any fruitcake unless I want to (I do crave a little every few years).
dmathews3, I can't tell you about my housekeeping around here if you don't fix your email in your profile (or should I guess attbi?). Thanks.
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
http://www.chrysler.com/town_country/accolades/index.html
Read and weep...
-Adam
http://www.cobizmag.com/issues/apr2001/pages/wheels/wheels10_23_00.cfm
-Adam
If your experience parallels mine with the Omni, you'll find that your first head gasket replacement won't be your last, assuming you keep the van a while longer.
In fact, the 3.3L has been around since the early days of Chrysler minivans back in the 1980s and is known for being more reliable than Chrysler's more powerful 3.8L engine.
We have had two Chrysler minivans with the 3.3L engine and have driven over 100k miles combined on both cars and have not had a single problem. Too bad some Odyssey owners can't say the same...
-Adam (16/M/CA)
We have had two Chrysler minivans with the 3.3L engine and have driven over 100k miles combined on both cars and have not had a single problem. Too bad some Odyssey owners can't say the same...There are already a couple here with Odysseys that have that many miles and no problems. If CR is to be believed, they rate the relieablity of the Odyssey a lot better than DC. The 99's had some door problems that were fixed on recall and CR admits that was the basis of the lower rating of the 99's but have since corrected it. The odds of a DC dud are much better than a Honda dud, and for arguements sake lets say you are right at least I can sell mine and get a lot closer to what I paid for it than you ever will. Yours new van willdrop in value more once you leave the dealers than mine will in 2 years.
This time you provided a better link, so I could read:
"Citing the redesigned look of Town & Country, "
It's a beauty contest, nothing more. Oh wait, they do require at least some dependability:
"what consumers like and dislike about their new vehicles during the first 90 days of ownership"
They do look nice. I saw a gold T&C with the gold plate trim the other day. It really looked awesome. Even the roof rack had the gold plate look. It was a sunny day and it had obviously been waxed and buffed properly. The van was turning heads. I expected to see Apollo himself driving the way it shone. But does that make it a better choice for the long haul? Should I put my family in it because it looks nice?
-Andy (plodding along in obscurity, safely and reliably, resting my arm on something that is barely comfortable but more than adequate)
The T&C is nice but the price is quite a bit higher than an Odyssey EX and there are concerns about the reliability.
I love how a reviewer can review ONLY TWO vehicles out of a market segment that probably has at least a half a dozen strong contenders and some how manages to come to the conclusion that one of the vehicles is the Best MInivan. And conveniently the reviewer decides not to test drive the two vehicles that have won the most acclaim in the last 3 or 4 years.
4adodge go post this link on the Winstar to Chrysler van comparison board cause it provides nothing meaningful to this board.
We ended up with the T&C Limited and enjoy it very much. 423 trouble free miles so far ;}. (The 7y/100k powertrain warranty did play a big part in our purchase)
The Honda was a strong contender for us but the T&C fit our needs a bit better.
The final vote for best mini-van comes down to how you vote with your wallet.
I do think the Odyssey is a great van, but not the be all end all of mini-vans.
Merry Christmas to all and enjoy the mini-van you thought was best!
"In the minivan category, the Honda Odyssey LX wins Best in Class, with 30 extra ponies over last year's model as well as top resale value and high safety honors. The Toyota Sienna and the Pontiac Montana are also worth a look, and note that Kia joins the minivan realm this year with the Kia Sedona. About the same size as the Sienna and powered by a 3.5-liter, 195-hp V6, this under-$20,000 entry could prove to be a real bargain. "
Many of those look like they were decked out with plastic recycled from $89 Daewoo television sets.
It's not hard to see why Chrysler Group's margins were squeezed with the introduction of the new models - one look close up shows well that they've addressed most of the cheesy trim from the older versions. Upgraded trim and quality doesn't come for free - as the departed management of Chrysler Group can tell you.
Luxury sedans have separately controlled temperature for the driver and front passenger. Why is Honda too cheap to include this item on the Odyssey?
We had ordered a Granite Green 1999 Honda Odyssey LX-C on March 16, 1999 and would have enjoyed the Magic Seat and very nice, flexible 2nd row seating (on all 99 Odysseys except the base Odyssey LX-B that had a 2 passenger bench seat for middle row).
As a previous poster stated "people vote with their wallet". Here are the FACTS on how people voted with their wallets:
http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svolva.asp
Nearly every available Odessey sold, most at or above MSRP.
Did every available Caravan, Windstar, T&C and Econoline sell? No. Most that did sold below MSRP, and the year end deals are really good bargains.
I bet WalMart sells more china than most high end department or specialty stores. Is that where you recommend buying china?
Guess what? Most people who buy china at WalMart will be happy with it. Most people who bought a Caravan, Windstar, T&C or Econoline will be happy with it. Some buyers are a little more discerning and are willing to pay a little more, wait a little longer and possibly even "endure" an armrest that isn't as comfy as the living room couch because they value the slightest margin in safety and reliability more than others.
Dodge Caravan 306,501 down 11%
Ford Winstar 165,167 down 19%
Chrysler T&C 130,97 up 43%
Honda Odyssey + Acura MDX 155,509 + 26%
The only reason I included the Acura MDX numbers is because Honda opted to produce the MDX on the Odyssey plant despite severe Odyssey shortage. Hopefully 2002 with the new plant in Alabama Honda can try and catch up to demand.
Also keep another thing in mind. Honda sells both vehicles at full MSRP and almost throughout every region in the nation there is a waiting list that is at least weeks long. No incentives, no rebates, no 0% financing. Can you imagine how many more people would have opted for the Odyssey if they didnt have to wait months for it? Peope are speaking with their wallets some people just aren't listening.
I don't know why you keep ignoring the biggest glaring counterpoint - People can't "vote with their money" when demand is greater than supply. I think the percentage of available vans that sold at or above MSRP would be a better indicator.
Immediate availability is a requirement of many buyers. The Ody does fail to meet that requirement.