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Toyota Tundra vs. Chevrolet Silverado
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Comments
Toyota may indeed have you returning to the dealer for service as one of it's priorities, and a way to make sure you are taking care of the vehicle properly.
Since the dealer may not necessarily see the owner as often as the domestics, this is built in to support the dealer network, and help them contribute to the bottom line, if not in service, than in maintenance.
you are joking right? you cant be serious. Could anybody be so naive to think there could be any truth to this? I cant wait to see the proof you mistakenly left out :sick:
Motortrend does compare the Silverado and Tundra in the April issue and Silverado wins. It will probably be in the next issue of Truck Trend as well.
Good truck for the customer, in-flux of customers for service department.
If someone HAS TO work on the truck themselves, why would it they complain that it is not so simple. That's why it's called work.
If the location of the filter is a dealbreaker.....
DrFill
DrFill
The manufacturers tout these awards like they won.
Sorry, I'll end my rant now. Hopefully, I'll save someone $4.
Seeing as how you're "not sensitive" about Tundra maintenance issues, and seeing as how Toyota is "aiming for the center of the market" as you say, then you won't mind at all if I continue asking the questions as often as necessary until we get an answer, right?
So here goes again (and again, if necessary): What is required to do a routine change of engine oil and filter on the new Tundra? Where is the filter located? How easy is the access?
1offroader
Here's one. Progressively some stores for competitive purposes will do the oil and filters for free..... forever.
The costs then are;
air filters.. as needed
tires, wipers, brakes, coolant as required by conditions and driving
spark plugs 100K miles min
4WD lube according to driving and vehicle.
My BMW loving wife was surprised that maintainence services on the Tundra were not free and that they didn't utilize synthetic oil. I guess we all have different expectations as well.
I think that keeping things simple in this regard would have been more advantageous, however, there may be some weird benefit to the cartridge system that I haven't heard of yet. Even if there is, I can't see it being that big a deal. Either way, changing oil means getting under the vehicle. If it means doing it one way instead of another I don't think that is going to matter too much to anybody unless it is a really big problem. Seems like the Tundra uses a lot of it though... 8.7 quarts? I have to recheck that number, but I thought that was it...
I could just as easily poke holes in the Edmunds comparison of the two trucks as well. Typical of this forum, any advantage the GMT900's have is down played or ignored.
As for drawing your own conclusions, you got that right. Over 70,000 people did that in February and bought a GM full size pickup.
In any case, even if the Tundra were worlds ahead of the Silverado, it would not out-sell it. Selling volume is more of an indicator of established brand equity and how entrenched a company is in its target market. Obviously the Tundra has a long way to go in this respect. But that doesn't mean that they won't be a big player in this market. It just means that it isn't right now. Getting there will take many years.
For now, I'm still concerned that there aren't huge differences in these trucks aside from what appeals to people's personal preference/taste. The thread itself is kind of exhausting meaningful differences other than bragging rights. But at the very least it can be acknowledged that there is another legitimate contender in the full-size truck market. How that plays out in the next few years will depends on many different factors. I think that ultimately the company's financial picture will come into play more strongly as more price pressure is put on this segment. Ford has the most to loose from this scenario so far.
You're half right.
See, there are Chevy guys in here and Toyota guys. And what happens is that the Chevy guys trumpet all advantages that the GMT900's have while they downplay or ignore the advantages of the Tundra.
And the Toyota guys trumpet all advantages that the Tundra has while they downplay or ignore the advantages of the GMT900's.
It's what passes for "debate" these days: ignore the other guy's point and only press your own. At least it's better than name calling which (apparently) got at least one GM fan kicked out of Edmunds.
I will offer this: the previous Chevy's were better than the previous Tundras for serious truck guys. GM has made the new Silverado better. At the same time, Toyota has made the Tundra MUCH better (in terms of what matters to serious truck guys).
Now, is the new Chevy better than the new Toyota? Personally, I think that BOTH are exceptionally capable trucks likely to provide YEARS of fine service to virtually anyone in the market for a 1/2 ton. They EACH have their own set of strengths and weaknesses; continually arguing about which is the "best" is (IMO) stupid, since different buyers appreciate different qualities/features.
As far as sales numbers: does McDonald's make the best hamburger just because they sell more? Personally, I don't give a rip HOW many people bought vehicle 'x' last year or last month.
Using GM's sales against the Tundra is useless, since Toyota may not be able to even build 200k units this year. That doesn't mean the Tundra is inferior, just not established as a brand. This will take a generation, or two. I think Toyota will continue to gain ground, and in 2 years, we can reaccess.
GM and Toyota should be commended. They've both raised the state-of-the-art.
DrFill
http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/2460
Bob
If Ford doesn't get their house in order, that could change for 2007.
kcram - Pickups Host
Yes, belias, there is a weird benefit. It's called "profit". The cartridge filters are not nearly as available as the spin-on types, and they are a lot more $$$. Plus, given the apparent relative complexity of doing it yourself on the Tundra, some portion of those who might've done their own will resort to the dealer. So, the dealer profits by either selling the filters, or having you pay to have them do the entire job. Next question - what does the Toyota dealer charge for the oil & filter change? I'm going to guess between $40-$50. I can do the Silverado for about $13 if I get the oil & filters on sale.
bugchucker just can't believe that someone would want to spend time changing their own oil. Yikes! What an elitist attitude. Hard to believe he's/she's a pickup owner, but I guess it takes all kinds...
It takes me a HECKUVA lot less time to do it myself. About 15 minutes on the Silverado. It takes most people more time than that just to drive to the dealer (or wherever) to have it done, not to mention the wait and then the drive home.
Then there is the issue of QUALITY - I've either personally experienced or witnessed stripped-out oil pan drain plug threads; cross-threaded filters; insufficiently tightened filters; overly tightened filters; too much oil; too little oil; and incorrect oil type/viscosity.
When I do the work it's ALWAYS done right and it's done in much less time. I recommend it to everyone (except bugchucker).
Hey, props go to the Tundra fans who at least answered my questions about the procedure & etc. At least you're (reluctantly) honest about the Tundra being a PITA on the oil change issue.
1offroader
1offroader
In the end though, I think you are right. Doing these small things cuts down on some of the alienation of modern life and they get done right!
YMMV
I cannot agree with you more... do it yourself and it's done correctly. I had a 1992 Astrovan, never taken to a mechanic, it was a rust bucket before the engine would need work. Gave it to a charity at 196,000 miles. Tahoe or Silverado.. do my own oil changes, done correctly, filled correctly and takes less than 20 minutes at half the cost. Anyone who can't or won't change thier own oil shouldn't own a truck....next question!
Chromedome 2007 Silverado Vortec MAX, Blue Granite Metalic 4x4 WITH almost everything save the Bose... Love it at 53 miles
Ya, I used to toss my keys to the dweb at the BMW dealer for an oil change. Both times the car came back damaged. That was the topical issue that I could see. God knows what they did when they had the hood open. The fewer number of times you let the dealer have your car, the few number of chances they have to screw your car up. If you are so free with letting some at your car, the next time you go out to a nice eatery, let the valet grab your car... twist your nexk and watch the snotty nosed attendant burn a few pounds of rubber of your tires. I used to park cars when I was a kid, it was great fun!
Chromedone
NICE new ride! Surprised you bothered to come back here when you only have 53 miles on the clock. You should be out gloating!
Wrong. My local dealer charges $21.95.
"I can do the Silverado for about $13 if I get the oil & filters on sale."
The canister type filter is about 20-23 dollars at full price. Taking into consideration that the oil change intervals for the Tundra are longer, the price difference might be a wash.
"Then there is the issue of QUALITY - I've either personally experienced or witnessed stripped-out oil pan drain plug threads; cross-threaded filters; insufficiently tightened filters; overly tightened filters; too much oil; too little oil; and incorrect oil type/viscosity."
If this is the type of service you get from Chevy, I can definately see your benefit from doing it on your own.
"Plus, given the apparent relative complexity of doing it yourself on the Tundra, some portion of those who might've done their own will resort to the dealer."
"At least you're (reluctantly) honest about the Tundra being a PITA on the oil change issue."
I knew you would spin this is. Please post a link to someone who actually stated it was a PITA.
:confuse:
Having said that though, there are times where it is cheaper and easier to do it at a dealer. I've done that several times and even have my car vaccumed and washed free.
Until we get more info on how to do the actual oil-change, I'm going to reserve judging whether this cartridge system is easier/harder than a typical oil change. If it is just a "different" way to do it but doesn't take more time/effort to do, then I don't see what is wrong with the system... hopefully we can get more owners to report on their experiences with this soon.
$0.. for life
$0.. for 2 years
$9.95
$13.95..
$21.95.. very common
$29.95
A couple years ago, my wife drove home from the dealer after a service. Within a FEW MILES of the dealer, the idiot light came on and the engine seized up. Someone forgot to add fluid to the vehicle. Anyway, she got to drive an upgrade vehicle for a month or 2 with unlimited miles, a new engine with warranty and now only the master mechanic touches one of her vehicles. She sold that vehicle with a transferrable warranty. She is still on a first name basis with her master mechanic and she never waits even 1 minute at the dealer.
Also, what harm is there in checking to see if they did their job right? It takes all of 1 minute to pop the hood, check that the cap is on properly, check the oil level, and look under the engine bay to see if there are any oil leaks.
Still, the likelihood of you making a mistake with your own vehicle will be a lot less than if somebody else is doing it. Despite the fact that "pros" can usually do it faster is offset by the chances that it is so routine that they are bound to mess up at least once or twice on the procedure without the proper control checks in place.
When I change my oil, I know if I've put on a new filter because I buy it myself. I know if it is tight enough because I can check it for myself. I know if I've put in the right oil and the right amount of it because I bought the oil myself and can measure the amount myself. And finally I can tell if I've done everything I need to do if the oil cap is put on tight and everything is nicely sealed, the oil level is correct, and the engine is running fine. It isn't rocket science... it just takes some time and a little care and it is easily done.
Also, in the off chance that you do forget to do something on your oil change, you are more likely to catch it before doing any damage to your vehicle.
This is a tough nut to crack for Toyota, and nothing in this class will come easily.
The Tundra is good enough to make Detroit blink. At the end of the day, that's all you can ask.
DrFill
So, who wears the pants in your family? Also, if you drive a Lexus and your "wife" drives a BMW, may I ask why you are posting on a pick-up truck thread? Just curious, that's all.
Mike
"I can do the Silverado for about $13 if I get the oil & filters on sale."
The canister type filter is about 20-23 dollars at full price. Taking into consideration that the oil change intervals for the Tundra are longer, the price difference might be a wash.
Ok, how can they do it for $21.95 if the filters sell for $20-$23?
I assume it's $21.95 (labor)+ oil and filter?
Of course this is an academic topic for now since the 6.2L/6-speed is in a truck costing $63k. Bling!
FYI, the 6.2l/6 speed is also standard in the Sierra Denali, which lists between $42-$45K, or roughly the same as the Crewmax Ltd.
I do plan to buy the Tundra unless I find something better. I test drove it on Sunday. The interior was kind of cheap but I really like that Nav. option.
Mike
The canister type filter is about 20-23 dollars at full price.
I guess they get discounted when you get it done at the dealership but charge a premium if you want to buy it over the counter :confuse:
I'm really not sure.
Ah, so I see, ggeq. Toyota is in business to sell the complete job, oil+filter+labor, for less than the cost of the filter. I doubt it.
Let's see: $20 for the filter, 8 quarts x $2.50/qt. for TOYOTA brand oil, plus labor. Yup, that's $21.95 by my math. :confuse:
But you know what? I will call the local Toyota dealer and ask them what they charge. Then I will post the answer, along with their phone # so you can check me. Fair enough? In exchange, you won't mind posting your dealer's phone number so we can check whether they charge $21.95, right?
In any event, I can do it better, faster, and cheaper than any dealer.
Regarding your assertion that the intervals "are longer"...longer than what? You are free to drive your vehicles any intervals between oil changes. Just remind me not to buy a used car from you, OK?
If this is the type of service you get from Chevy, I can definately see your benefit from doing it on your own.
That's your version of spin, and not very intelligent at that (but don't worry, we don't expect that from you). I haven't owned a GM vehicle in more than 20 years, and none of the examples I gave were from poor service at a Chevy dealer. My WORST dealer experiences EVER have been at Toyota. That's just one reason why I didn't buy a Toyota this time around.
"At least you're (reluctantly) honest about the Tundra being a PITA on the oil change issue."
I believe it was belias who agreed that the Toyota had to have the skid plates removed, it has a canister type filter, and the filter was harder to get to. The canister type filters are definitely harder to find, messier to deal with, and more expensive. I have changed them enough times to know...
Looks like you're the one spinning, doesn't it? But I'll let the readers judge who's the spinner. I told you how easy it is to do on the Silverado - no spin, just fact. If someone wants to explain the procedure on the Tundra no one's stopping them.
So here's my challenge to Tundra owners - tell us about your oil change procedure. C'mon!
Say, ggesq, why don't YOU tell us? You seem to know so much about Tundras...
1offroader
kcram - Pickups Host
Hey buddy. This isn't the proper board to be discussing "lifestyle choices". Take it somewhere else, OK?
kcram, can't you put a stop to this?
1offroader
To put this more on topic, Toyota and Chevy/GMC dealers are going to offer similar discount oil changes for the same reason. They want to make the oil change as inexpensive and convenient as possible, so that the Tundra or Silverado/Sierra owner will want to come there for scheduled maintenance. For many people, that is a selling point.
kcram - Pickups Host
The one warning was issued, and that's all one gets.
kcram - Pickups Host
Local Toy dealer is Toyota of Tampa Bay-toll free- 866-540-1711. Knock yourself out. I even saved you a quarter with the toll free #. I don't need to check you, why would you lie?
Toyota recommends 5k miles between oil changes down here.
I'm not going to respond with personal attacks like you have done previously e.g. "That's your version of spin, and not very intelligent at that (but don't worry, we don't expect that from you)." I guess you haven't learned already that it is not proper online etiquette or allowed on Edmunds.
Belias is hypothesizing. I believe he doesn't own one. So, how could he personally know? How could you personally know?
Sorry, but I have never changed the oil in any of my previous trucks and don't plan on it either. Choice is a wonderful thing.
Now let me explain how this works on the tractors and see if these apply to the Tundra (Tundra owners will need to report on this). Basically, the idea is that the canister method involves a self-pressurized fixed container that is supposed to be accessible from the top. A type of lid (and o-ring) is removed to expose the filter which can then be pulled out and disposed of quickly and easily. When the bolt holding the lid in is removed, the "pressure" is released sending the rest of the oil down through the oil pan and eliminating the mess that the oil can create with spin-on filters by dripping down the side(s) of the other components in the vehicle. The new filter is replaced, lid replaced, and everything gets bolted back together.
It seems like a fairly simple procedure and my guess is that Toyota did this maybe to give be in line with other equipment on a ranch or farm (i.e. for marketing purposes). The problem for me comes from whether or not it is accessible from the top of the engine bay or not. If I still need to get underneath it to make the change, then it doesn't provide much of an advantage, if any. On the other hand, I do agree that the "idea" behind it being cleaner and more "environmentally friendly" may still be correct. The only problem is that generally most people don't care about that. Spin-ons have the advantage of being more familiar and, in general, the most obvious and expected route for oil changes.
I do think though, that the two o-rings do need replacement (every 3 oil changes for the ones on the John Deeres), though I'm not sure how often on the Tundras. In the end, I really don't think that this is that big of a deal. The bigger problem right now is that apparently there isn't much stock of the cartridge and people are trying to get their hands on them. That may have surprised Toyota, but I know that certainly me and many of the people I know want to change their oil every 3000 to 4000 miles no matter what the manuals claim (my car says that it is needed only every 15,000 miles or 7,500 miles in "harsh" driving conditions).
Also, one small point; yes the cartridges are more expensive than the regular spin-ons. But, in John Deere's case, it is actually the opposite now (probably due to manufacturing ramp up and less differences in size). The cartridge filters for those are already considerably cheaper than the regular spin ons, so it may take a while for that to occur. I imagine the combination of being just the paper filter and the reduction of different filter types for each vehicle will help bring down the cost of these filters dramatically. Also, oil filter manufacturers such as Fram and Purolator will create more competition and price pressure.
The best way to think of this type of filter is to look at it the same way as your air filter. It uses the same principles of design but applied for use with oil. Honestly it will be interesting to see how this turns out in the long run.
Also, I've seen ads for and even heard oil change radio ads for Toyota oil changes for $21.95 in my area here. But that is generally for 4cyl and 6cyl engines with up to 5 quarts of oil. I'm guessing that there is a premium for 8cyl engines and I think I remember reading on Toyota's web site that the 5.7l Tundra takes something like 8.7 quarts of oil. So chances are that the actual price will be closer to $30. Still, buying a 12-pack of motor oil runs a good $30. Getting 2 gallons and 1 quart would still run about $27 or so. Even if the filter was just $5 now, that is still $32 to do it yourself.
For most dealerships, an oil change is simply a way to get you used to bringing your vehicle in to them for servicing and to build up a relationship. I don't think they loose money on it, but it is a good way for them to keep their staff busy between major jobs. Some dealerships even give you free oil changes during the warranty or the 1st year. Think of it as an item on the McDonald's dollar menu; most people buy meals, but the dollar menu gets you to think that their food is economical.
In any case, the only real issue so far seems to be that the cartridges are in short supply at the moment. I'm sure that will be resolved soon.
For someone that made the comment about "Toyota" oil, just a little info to help ease your concerns. While the packaging certainly says "Toyota" oil, the actual oil is probably something like Pennzoil or Castrol GTX or something similar. Almost every major auto manufacturer has some version of their own motor oil. They typically go into a contract to get these things supplied from one of the major manufacturers. That goes with many parts like any of the air or oil filters, etc.