Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

hypov · December 2007

Ha!
Me driving on I-95 last week, doing 82 mph, and here comes grandma coming alongside next to me. She looked over, smiled, and brrrrrrrrr she went.

Even li'l old lady don't drive like a li'l old lady in a turbocharged.

She was in a black '07 STi.

-Dave

jeffmc · December 2007

^That post made me smile.

kurtamaxxxguy · December 2007

any thoughts as to how to extend (lower) torque peaks in the Subie engines?

Different headers? Modified valve timing?

Or is the whole idea of the Subie engine to rev at high RPM and you use a manual to get power out of it?
A CVT sounds like a good match for this kind of engine, but Subie doesn't offer it.

saedave · December 2007

A CVT sounds like a good match for this kind of engine, but Subie doesn't offer it.
YET.

Nissan does and the Subaru auto trans is sourced from Nissan. That suggests we won't have too long a wait. Yes, I know Toyota has a part ownership of Subaru, but that probably does not matter. Nissan and Toyota share some components.

ateixeira · December 2007

paisan and I have a conspiracy theory that VDC AWD is shared, note both companies use the same name for it.

paisan · December 2007

any thoughts as to how to extend (lower) torque peaks in the Subie engines?

Different headers? Modified valve timing?

Or is the whole idea of the Subie engine to rev at high RPM and you use a manual to get power out of it?
A CVT sounds like a good match for this kind of engine, but Subie doesn't offer it.

Compared to other Japanese cars, the Subies actually have a lot of low-end grunt. Honda especially is very top heavy.

On Turbo models you need to get up past about 2600rpms to get into the turbo, but with my LGT I can easily get to 80mph and I skip-shift 1-3-5. Not sure how much of a rocket you want but that's a pretty good torque band if I'm skip-shifting all the time.

-mike

paisan · December 2007

Also the other Pathfinders shared the same trans with the maxima and SVX.

I wouldn't be surpised to see Subaru use some of the Nissan CVT technology.

Also all your switches are Nissan sourced switches. Pull the driver panel window switches and you'll see a nissan control box there.

-mike

kurtamaxxxguy · December 2007

interesting about switches..perhaps GM Subaru and Nissan are using same supplier ??

Anyway:

I'm wondering if the '08 Outback XT got similar "torque enhancing" mods that were given to the '08 Impreza.

A subaru dealer I visited said this was so.
But I cannot find any confirmation of that on the Subaru web site or anywhere else. :confuse:

ebony5 · December 2007

Well I took my car to the Service department ( I always use the same mechanic there) and he found that I need to replace the rear pads soon probably at the next oil service(the fluid was a bit low in the Master). This way I can earn some Subaru Bucks to help with the cost. I was not charged for the time spent inspecting the situation, He also pulled the tires and showed me the wear on the pads. Though going to a Subaru Service Dept. may be a bit more expensive there are advantages to an established good relationship. They know I have my work done there and it being a 1996 I have been using them since I purchased the car in 2002.

paisan · December 2007

I'm wondering if the '08 Outback XT got similar "torque enhancing" mods that were given to the '08 Impreza.

Actually it was the '08 Imprezas that got the controls that the 07 Legacy/Outbacks got. I-drive IIRC is what it's called.

-mike

saedave · December 2007

Mike
Is he not referring to the change in the turbo, cams, etc.to reduce the rpm at which torque is maximum?

Dave

paisan · December 2007

The Legacy/Outback have had a different torque band than the Impreza and Forester for a while but I think he may have been referring to the I-drive. The Legacy/Outback have more HP/Torque than the Imprezas now still even.

-mike

kurtamaxxxguy · December 2007

No I was referring to actual engine torque curves.
And from what I saw on two other comparison sights, other than ratings, the Outback XT engine appears to be unchanged from 2005.

There is a "speed package" that offers a less restricted intake pipe and heat shield for more HP/ torque, but I'm not sure how well that air filter protects the engine.

I did see the Impreza engine did get tweaked for broader torque, but unfortunately the former VW style seat (hinged at front,tilts you into the dash when raised, etc.) proved no match for the outback. Custom leather only made the Impreza worse (why on earth does a custom leather maker put a hard seam right under one's butt ?? ).

hammerhead · December 2007

Hey, gang - trying to tweak the headlight aim on the '99 - I know which screw does vertical, but which direction? Clockwise as viewed from the driver's seat (tightening) aims higher?

Does this qualify as righty-tighty/lefty-loosey?

Cheers!
Paul

ateixeira · December 2007

Not sure if it's universal for Subies. I had to replace a headlight and the one that came in was different than the one that came out!

Aim it against a wall with horizontal lines, then turn the light on while you adjust. That's how I do it.

kurtamaxxxguy · December 2007

I noticed the '08 Outback headlights have a very sharp cutoff (hard edge .vs. usual softer falloff of US cars).
Is this typical for all Subarus, or just the outback?

jeffmc · December 2007

^Any Subie that has the halogen projectors. I think their range and illumination is quite good, it's just that where they don't reach is more noticeable because of the greater contrast.

ateixeira · December 2007

How does it go, Tribeca and Leg have projectors, Impreza and Forester halogens? IIRC

jeffmc · December 2007

As far as I know, new Impreza added projectors, leaving just Forester without. Word on other forums is that the new Forester won't have them, apparently to help keep costs down. I'm disappointed with that 'cause I really like the projectors.

ateixeira · December 2007

I have mixed feelings.

I do think it's crucial to keep the prices flat. The segment is more competitive now, and Subaru needs volume from the Forester.

The other thing is my 1998 has excellent lights. Bob's isn't as good. He has an 01 or 02, IIRC. So it depends on the optics.

If they can get lights as good as my 1998's, which were cheap and halogen, then I'd say stick with those. Cheap and effective.

paisan · December 2007

How does it go, Tribeca and Leg have projectors, Impreza and Forester halogens? IIRC

Impreza has had projectors since the 06MY.

-mike

paisan · December 2007

No I was referring to actual engine torque curves.
And from what I saw on two other comparison sights, other than ratings, the Outback XT engine appears to be unchanged from 2005.

In 07 the turbo Outback/Legacy got a manually adjustable ECU which adjusts the boost and some other items and on AT cars changes the shift points.

-mike

kurtamaxxxguy · December 2007

Manually adjustable?

Is this adjustment the 3-setting engine response control Subaru is talking about, with intelligent, sport and sport sharp settings?

or something else?

paisan · December 2007

Yes.

In intelligent it turns down the boost along with a few other fuel saving ECU items. In Sport it's "normal" and in sport sharp it increases boost as well as throttle response.

-mike

kurtamaxxxguy · December 2007

In last night's drive in Outback Turbo automatic, the 3 positions translated to:

1. intelligent = linear but rather sluggish
2. sport = 2 step response (linear jumping to turbo in about 2 seconds)
3. sport sharp = less wait between linear and turbo transition, but still there.

Noted no turbo response until over 3K rpm. Meanwhile auto trans kept wanting to keep engine down around 2K or so.

Seems like the turbo's still not all that well matched to the auto. Perhaps a CVT would be a better fit?

alloway70 · December 2007

I decided to go into a closer Subaru dealership even though my previous experience with a Subaru dealership further away was great! I made a huge mistake going to the closer dealership...my experience at Delaware Subaru was probably the worst experience I have ever had at any type of dealership. I can handle dishonesty, but for a sales manager to be dishonest, arrogant, rude, belittling and down right unprofessional I can't handle. I visited Delaware Subaru three times before I was ready to make my purchase (Outback) when it came time to negotiate the sales managers true colors came out. Everything he said previously no longer was true. He had said he'd use NADA as a starting value for my trade...yet was using Kelly Blue Book to decide his value when I was ready to trade my low mileage BMW. Okay. Then the price of the vehicle and the options I wanted were not the same as previously agreed. That's when I thanked him for wasting my time. He sarcastically said, "I return the gratitude." He's at work...how could I waste his time? Then as I was leaving he said I wouldn't find a better deal any where and that I would be back. I assured him I wouldn't be back and he was the reason. He ran across the showroom after I had walked out the door to yell, "You're not welcome back here! Did this guy ever have any customer service training? When I complained to the dealership, they thought it was about money. I havent received an apology, only that the next time I come in to Delaware Subaru I'm supposed to ask for the General Manager and he'll "take care of me". This whole situation has been a terrible experience and I think it reflects badly on Subaru. I did buy an Outback from the further away dealership and had the same great experience, but I cant believe there are no repercussions for the sales manager. Apparently no one has complained about this guy beforehis actions were no less professional. Should I just strike this up as a lesson and move on? What happened to excellent customer service? No company seems focused on that any more?

kurtamaxxxguy · December 2007

Dealers are independent businesses. They can and will vary widely in quality. The car manufacturers have very little control over them, though Toyota has recently tried to rein in the worst of theirs.

My dealer research first checks them against BBB. While not foolproof, BBB does flag the really bad outfits (like one in Portland that I now avoid like the plague). If they pass that check, and Edmunds readers' dealer ratings, a visit is in order, during which _Any_ dishonesty in a sales person, excessive handoffs leading to high pressure tactics, or any tricks started by the finance department, will lead to a polite "no thanks" and hasty exit.
It does no good to complain to those types - they are usually short focus "deal makers".

I'd suggest doing business with the "good dealer" as much as possible, and leave the bad one alone.

jeffmc · December 2007

Warning folks about doing business there is the right move. You made a good attempt to pursue it once through the dealership, and apparently they just don't get it. Sometimes impact on the bottom line is the only thing that gets through to business owners/managers. If enough people are treated how you were treated, and they voice their opinions as you have, the dealer's bad reputation will drive away enough customers to harm their overall sales. Low sales means scrutiny. The dealership, hopefully and eventually, will either recognize a need to change personnel or go under.

Just as important as keeping business from the bad dealer is sending business to the good dealer. So, what dealership did you drive farther to for a great sales experience? Folks are looking for dealer references here all the time.

Yes, your bad experience does reflect on Subaru. Fortunately for the brand, you had a good first experience elsewhere and were willing to go there to be a repeat Subaru buyer. For many folks, that bad experience would be their first impression of the brand and would be enough to keep them from buying a Subie. Something like that might be worth repeating to a Subaru Customer Service rep. You can contact them through this form at the Subaru.com website: http://www.subaru.com/tools/contactus/index.jsp or through the 1-800 number at the bottom of that form.

Congrats on the new car, BTW!

xwesx · December 2007

The automatic in today's Subaru is far more interactive than those of old. Did you try switching the transmission into "sport" mode by pulling it out of D to the left? That will tell the car to retain gears into higher RPMs. Also, by shifting yourself, you can retain gears within the preset RPM limits. Aside from a clutch, the system lets you be as interactive or hands off as you are willing to be in order to get the performance you want (as long as your want is within the car's limitations, of course!).

kurtamaxxxguy · December 2007

No, the trans was in D. I was not aware of this additional mode of operation - I'll keep that in mind for next test drive.

My problem is to keep the XT from doing (for me) the dreaded "turbo two step" where the car keeps switching between turbo and non turbo mode. That proved unpleasant and, in real world driving, unpredictable.

The only way I can see, so far, to avoid that is to always keep the engine above 3K RPM and shift like mad. Which is what Subaru apparently has in mind all along.

...or just bypass the issue and consider the H6 instead ?

xwesx · December 2007

The only way I can see, so far, to avoid that is to always keep the engine above 3K RPM and shift like mad. Which is what Subaru apparently has in mind all along.

Haha! Many of the folks I see driving turbo Subarus do just that! I cannot comment on that aspect, though, as I have never driven a turbo-charged car of any kind.

I expect that the 5EAT has the sport mode for the transmission. You shift it into this mode by pulling the shift lever to the left as though you are going to engage the manual-shift option of the transmission, but then do not move the lever up or down. A small green light should illuminate on the dash just below the gear selection indicator that says "SPORT." I notice on the 4EAT that the transmission holds the gear longer before shifting, even if accelerating slowly.

xwesx · December 2007

...or just bypass the issue and consider the H6 instead ?

Folks say it is a very different experience, but, considering all the research you are performing, it seems to me like you should try an H6 for yourself to see whether it is even something worth considering.

kurtamaxxxguy · December 2007

Consumers Union did not look kindly on the Outback H6 engine, and worse on the 2.5 I series (their tests showed the 2.5 I clocking 0-60 no better than a Prius).

I'm not a performance hawk, but would like to see the same responsiveness in a Subaru that I get in my current Malibu Maxx (something Car&Driver liked about the latter). So far, I've not found a Subie that does that - they've proven either underpowered or non-linear (the latter apparently an inherient trait of any turbocharged system).

But thnx for suggestions...I will try those things when I do another Subie test drive.

saedave · December 2007

I chose my H6 over the GT turbo wagon after trying to drive the turbo in traffic. The turbo was either too late to accel into the opening or nearly caused a rear ender! Unlike with very high performance cars and motorcycles which I have had many of, the turbo's power did not enhance agility.

If one's objective is fastest 0-60 times, the turbo is a delight. Drive both the turbo and H6 in heavy traffic before you decide.

jeffmc · December 2007

What was it about the H6 they didn't like? Its reliability is great. Other than fuel economy, I've got no complaints about the H6 in my '06 Outback... it makes the wagon much quicker than our lighter-weight 2.5i Legacy sedan, and has better high-RPM passing power. It doesn't have the more explosive spirit of the turbo, but it feels plenty quick to me. One key (do I recall juice mentioning this also?) is to slowly & steadily depress the gas pedal rather than stomping on it.

BTW, the 2.5 is pretty good propelling the lighter Legacy sedan and, yes, is a bit pokey when in the heavier Outback body. It's one of the reasons we upgraded from our '04 Outback sooner than we typically would. A 2.5 Outback's not bad, but I think you'd have a hard time calling just the acceleration aspect "fun" at any point.

saedave · December 2007

What was it about the H6 they didn't like? Its reliability is great. Other than fuel economy, I've got no complaints about the H6 in my '06 Outback... i

I believe they complained about its slightly tail-happy cornering.....one of the reasons I like it!

As to fuel economy, it is about 1/3 BETTER in town than my Passat W8 wagon was.And it stays out of the service bay.

fendertweed · December 2007

yep only i would say don't call, put it in writing -- more impact.

kurtamaxxxguy · December 2007

your experience confirms my experience, saedave. thanks. as I routinely drive in heavy traffic, and need predictable response over all-out speed, the turbo makes little sense.

H6 sounds promising, however, and perhaps the SI drive will give the option for a bit more spirited response (as needed) than CU got (they tested an '06, BTW).

saedave · December 2007

H6 sounds promising, however, and perhaps the SI drive will give the option for a bit more spirited response (as needed) than CU got (they tested an '06, BTW

And they (CU) do not use brake-throttle combination for maximum accel. I do when needed. There is a large difference in 0-20 mph.

The auto trans on the W8 was so marginally sized that VW did not (and could not) permit preloading!

kurtamaxxxguy · December 2007

is there any published information that actually __shows__ the Subaru engine torque and horsepower curves for the Outback engines ?

I'm finding that info very hard to locate, and Subaru is strangely silent about those when asked.

kurtamaxxxguy · December 2007

drove an H6 today. ok, bit noted two oddities:

1. loud clunks in the drive line when accelerating gently around 30 mph. happened several times. Is this typical for Subarus running at midrange speeds?

2. substantial hesitation in acceleration. for speeds around 30 - 50 mph, pushing the gas for passing didn't get any real response from the engine for about 1-2 seconds. Shifting the transmission in to third helped things a bit, as did manually shifting the trans. this was true for both sport and sport sharp modes (intelligent mode was pretty lakadasial).

Does Subaru expect drivers to shift an automatic transmission "manually" in order to get a responsive driving experience?

this is all in comparison to my primitive 4 speed pushrod Malibu Maxx, which proves very responsive if not having the ultimate power of the Outback.

jskimtb · December 2007

My 96 imp outback wagon rear defrost stopped working a while ago and recently the wiper stopped as well. I checked the fuses do you have other ideas?

zman3 · December 2007

1) None such noises on my 06 H6.

2) Mine is sensitive to whether I use premium gas, as recommended, or not. It will have a hesitation when I really get on the gas if I use regular octane gas. Premium alleviates the hesitation. Perhaps someone saved a buck or two when they put gas in the car?

paisan · December 2007

You guys must be driving rocketships.

I have a legacy GT w/5MT and I drive in NYC and NNJ traffic all the time with it. No hesitations, etc.

I drove my brother in laws outback 2.5i and it's a bit sluggish but in sport mode on the trans it was adequet for me, and I'm fairly aggressive.

If you do get a turbo and keep it above 3k RPMs your milage will drop to nothing. I rarely go above 3k in normal driving, except when I want to pass.

Also the transmission learns (over 1000 miles) what your driving style is and will adapt to it so that is something to consider.

-mike

hypov · December 2007

1. it's only typical when your driving style isn't matching what the TCU/ECU have in its memory. It smoothes out when the TCU/ECU registers your driving style.

2. same as 1. Also, smoothes out when driver gets acclimated to the AT.
i.e. stumping/flooring the accelerator from standstill or cruising in overdrive will result in hesitation.

-Dave

kurtamaxxxguy · December 2007

The Maxx I drive and Ion I drove also have adaptive transmissions and did seem to adjust as time went on. My area in S Calif had lots of hills and after a while the Maxx figured out how to best shift on those.

I've no idea whether the dealers are using premium or regular in the cars I drove. But it's good to know that when Subaru says premium, they mean premium.

And no, the test I'm doing is pretty simple; simply trying to determine how the car will handle in a S. Calif passing situation. Which is usually running 30 - 50 mph and then pushing (not stomping) accelerator down to get speed up to pass.

Yes, if the accelerator was stomped, the car definitely bogs for 1-2 seconds.
By comparison, the Maxx only bogs for half a second, and perhaps that is because its tranny is sorted out.

I'll try to find used versions of these to drive.

saywhat · December 2007

Hi, I was stuck in 5 or 6 " of snow today with my 04 Forrester Turbo, and I noticed only the 2 front wheels were spinning and not the rear wheels.
When I finally got unstuck, I noticed all 4 wheels were spinning but moving me out of the snow.
My wifes 05 Legacy turbo was fine, and went right through the same conditions.
Could the snow have packed under the diff, It was as high as the bottom of the door.
If there is anyplace that I can get an answer, I thought it would be from all you very knowlegable people on this forum.

Thanks for your anticpated help. Bob "G"

paisan · December 2007

Are these MTs or ATs?

If you had snow up over the doors you probably high centered yourself. The Legacy may have been heavier and been able to dig down better. The other thing is it could have been a tire difference. Let us know the spec on both cars and we may be able to give you some more insight into it.

-mike

saywhat · December 2007

Hi Mike;
The Forrester is a 04 turbo automatic with yokohama AS 430 replacement tires with 20, 000 miles on them. Standard factory size. (I don't know what the size is).
I did notice in spite of the high cost and advertising, they always seemed a little slippery in snowy conditions.
The Legacy is an 05 turbo automatic with standard factory Z R 17 high performance all season tires. These tires also have about 20, 000 miles on them.
The 05 Legacy auto turbo, has traction control, and I don't think the 04 Auto Forrester has traction control.

Again, thanks for your anticpated help!

Bob "G"

kurtamaxxxguy · December 2007

For the subaru experts here, how much drive line lash develops as the Outbacks age?

Is there a particular area I need to keep an eye on, and make sure is properly maintaned, to avoid it?

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