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Permanent Rust Removal?

kw_carmankw_carman Member Posts: 114
edited March 2014 in Toyota
Well, if it's permanent rust, then it's staying. Why? Because it's permanent.
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  • rmblizzardrmblizzard Member Posts: 6
    I have a '93 Toyota Camry with surface rust near the rear wheel well. I took it to a certified Auto Body shop for some insurance claim work not associated with this problem. Since it was being worked on I had them repair this rust. Well 6 months later it starts to bubble and has water under this bubble which is approx. 3/8" diameter. I called the shop that did the work and complain and there response is "We don't gurantee any rust work at all." They said there is no possible way to remove all the rust unless they cut the metal out around it and weld in new sheetmetal. This of course is big $$$$. I called another local auto body shop who responded the same. So my question is: What product out there completely removes rust so when you paint it does not come back?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If there is only a very light oxide of rust with no perforation or pitting of the metal it may be possible to arrest it chemically.

    But as soon as the rust has penetrated the metal, your body shop is quite correct--the only permanent cure is to cut out the metal that is rusted.

    Rust Never Sleeps as they say.

    Of course the body shop that did the work could be copping out, too. If there was only a light surface rust, a chemical treatment, sanding and primer should have taken care of it.

    It rather depends on what you mean by "surface"--what I mean by that is no penetration, flaking or pitting of the metal surface, just almost a "dusty" coating. Once "in" the metal, the rust will return.
  • jgmilbergjgmilberg Member Posts: 872
    There is a product called P.O.R.-Paint Over Rust. I don't know the particulars, but it does work. I used it on a battery tray, the only problem is I don't know if you can paint over it, and if you can even spray the stuff to get an even coat for a good finish quality with the final paint. The engine bay on the car was black any way, so it didn't matter to me, but the thing still is looking good, no rust popping out.

    http://www.por15.com/index.html
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Usually you can paint over chemical treatments after you thoroughly clean off the chemical by, ironically, washing it down with soap and water.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    loctite/duro makes one; however, since their web site uses frames and doesn't give you a clean link, you will have to research naval jelly and their stabilizer, whatever-it-is, yourself.


    3M does make nice linkable pages on their web site. check out rust avenger at (you will have to fix this oversized link in the usual fashion...)


    http://products.mmm.com/us/auto_marine_aero -

    /products/aad.jhtml? - powurl=DVQHTHVCKFbeGSLPLPKL4XgeGST1T4S9TCgvRMT00NZ63Rgl

  • bigfurbigfur Member Posts: 649
    The ONLY way to make sure it is totally gone is to weld in a new peice. otherwise grinding down the rusted areas and removing all of the rust with a sand blaster works too. Used the sand blasting in a GMC dealership i used to work in and it worked well. Just have to put a lil putty over the divits left by the sand blasting. Just something we used to use, and in minnesota we used it alot, so good luck.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    I always used big nasty stones-on-paper sanding disks, and if I could see daylight or the second piece of steel making the back side of a fender, got out the snips and cut until it was all clean metal. being arc-challenged, I then cranked up my Bondo act with reinforcing glass fabric. the only thing I ever used rust stabilizer for were those little stone dings you get on the front and sides, just in case there was any rust that had started down there. then primer, then color, then clear.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    Take a look at the Eastwood site for rust related materials and processing:

       http://www.eastwoodcompany.com
  • dc_sports_ruledc_sports_rule Member Posts: 134
    A man that I know that restores classic cars uses believe it or not sulfuric acid. It works--not one car of his that had this process ever had rust return.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    he's "pickling" the metal before painting it, getting all nonsense out of the way and straight down to bare cathodic iron. the less-risky, less-intensive "modern" process is to use an etching primer, which has acid in it. in either event, you have to start with "clean" and solid metal, no pinholes or perforations, no glaze of wax or primer or oil.

    some old-timers working on their model Ts who get down to pure iron and have pinholes get out the gas set and braze fence wire into the perforations so they have mild steel with no mess all the way. it should go without saying, but it won't, that you have nothing but metal here, the seats and weatherstrip and tires are all on the other side of the garage. this is stripping the husk a little further than somebody who wants to get a couple of rusting mall dings out of the Camry before Monday is going to do.

    I have also used cold galvanizing spray inside the fenders, etc. where it is hard to get a solid and tight coating on bare metal, works nicely until it is etched away, which is what all "zincs" are supposed to do, be it in ocean-going boats or rust-resistant body panels. again, that's only gonna work on pure clean bare metal, because it has to be a chemical bond.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    From another (likely lesser) approach, I have noted in recent years that several offerings are available that "entomb" rust by reacting with it and enclosing it in a status very near dormancy. I posted the Eastwood Internet site above as a place where one can access this technology in commercial products. I cannot attest to the efficacy of the materials and techniques, though.
    http://www.eastwoodcompany.com
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    and again, I sorta think they're called for if you find a little dullness at the bottom of a stone pit. if the fender is salted with rust, or perforated, I still believe in cutting down to good metal and replace the nasty stuff. bondo with glass mat backing is a darn site better than swiss-cheese rust.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    When I was in my late teens I did some rust through repairs on a 1955 Chevy I "restored." I did a body putty on a screen mesh instead of welding in new metal. I didn't have a welder. Still don't. I am wondering why I don't. I seem to have most all the other tools known to humanity, according to my wife. Hmmm! Oh, yeah... I'm still ashamed of that body work I did.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    but then, I did it over several times when the truth is told on my first vehicle. have picked up the touch over the years (no, dangit, I didn't say I'm slightly touched, you're all against me, it's a plot.......)

    a welder would not do me much good in an apartment garage without power, but then again one spark could burn down the housing for a hundred cars, so I remain arc-deficient.

    I DO know what to do with a cutting torch, though ;) park behind me and take off your plates and see ;)
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    chopped and channelled! (:o]
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    you say you have lousy gas mileage on your road hog, and want to save some money? well, bunky, step right up and let the flamebroiler cut your weight and make your ride whistle along! cut you down to Mini-size in under an hour. not responsible for battery or gas line fires.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm very skeptical of "permanent" rust removal that doesn't actually cut away the infected metal.

    Many auto body panels are sandwiches or have pressed seams, so the rust is completely hidden from view but in there nonetheless.

    Also sand blasting can often peen over the rust.

    Chemical dipping has its own set of problems, as the chemical cannot always be extracted from every nook and cranny, and will itself seep out over time and run your paintwork. Been there, done that!

    I like the approach they use in the UK, where they are so much more facile with rust repair, and treat rust with a familiarity and contempt unknown in the US. They just torch the car to pieces and get rid of all the bad panels. You have a hole in the rocker? ZAP, that's outta there! None of this patchwork for the Brits!

    Of course, one would hope they have the car jigged in some fashion so it's straight after all the structural cutting they've done!
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    but it ought to be effective.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    They do some pretty ferocious rust repair over there.

    But you know, "surface" rust, I think that can be knocked out chemically. But extensive perforation, uh-uh, I don't think so.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    the plan is to keep from getting there as long as possible, and for that, all good methods for fixating the rust process are acceptable.

    the oxidation of iron, or the reduction of the hydrogen in water by iron, as the chemists would have it, causes lots of flakes and gaps in which more water gets underneath. anything that stops that process and seals the surface is good, even better if it stays put for a while.

    even stainless steel rusts. corr-ten (tm) is designed and expected to rust, and it happens fast. but after corr-ten rusts, it doesn't raise up and flake off like other alloys. and it holds paint well afterwards. so that makes a dandy surface for water towers and bridge beams and the like, and US Steel has made some good money on the alloy.

    unfortunately, drivers don't have big slabs of steel in their fenders, and they don't like to have a thick layer of rust on their cars before they have them painted, so it won't help us a bit.

    galvanizing puts the judgement day off, as the zinc sacrifices itself first once something gets past the paint layer.
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