Cadillac STS/STS-V: What's New for 2007?

arenn · July 2003

Potential problems I see:

- Say the want to be internationally "competitive", not the best.

- No mention of interior quality.

Assuming this is real, of course.

mbukukanyau · July 2003

Cadillac needs to train its staff on how to treat customers when they walk in through the door. They need to know, that they are dealing with a different crowd, in this new market they seek to address.
Maybe, getting some people from Lexus would help! I walked into a Cadillac dealer to check out the CTS and I was totally ignored.
I went into a Lexus dealership down the street for the IS comparison, and the reception was absolutely gorgeous. Lucky for them, I like the CTS. But I will not be buying the STS from that dealership

richw5 · July 2003

The link posted by "notyourname" was an old fiberglass mockup created around the year 2000. While some of the features of the 2005 STS will be similar, this was a proposal along with some benchmarking questions.

Rich

gearman · July 2003

Here are a few follow up comments to my 19 June posting.

Being an enthusiastic owner of some interesting GM cars, including a 2000 Catera (I post at that thread on occassion) and a'02 STS, I was delighted to participate in a target market consumer opinion clinic conducted by a market research firm on behalf of GM to obtain comment on an 05 STS prototype. My comments on the car are detailed in that earlier posting.

Here are some additional comments in response to a couple of more recent postings to this site.

The disguised prototype 'spy' photos that have been recently posted to this thread are consistent with the appearance of the prototype that I evaluated in June (see my 19 June posting). Having seen the STS in person, I can easily make out the shape of the STS prototype under the black cladding.

Recently, I've had the chance to attend a couple of 'ride and drive' new product introductions: one sponsored by Ford for the new Jaguar XJ sedan and one sponsored by VW for the new Audi 8L sedan.

These are events where the invitees receive a product briefing from the organizers (Motor Trend and Jim Russell, respectively), followed by aggressively driving the cars at the edges of their performance envelopes through a low speed (70mph) track laid out between orange cones in a huge empty parking lot.

At one of these events, a fellow participant (an enthusiastic owner of a 2000 STS with 180 k miles !) described his participation in a target market consumer clinic in which he had the opportunity to drive an STS prototype. His comments echoed mine in regards to the low-budget material quality and fit/finish that he observed in the STS prototype.

Disturbingly, he was so disappointed at the disparity in interior fit/finish/materials that he observed between the '05 STS prototype that he previously drove and the '04 Audi 8L that he and I were driving at the event that he will be selling his STS and buying an 8L next week instead of waiting for the '05 STS to arrive.

To reinforce that point further, the benchmark in terms of interior fit / finish / material quality is still some selected VW products, particularly the new VW Toureg and the new Audi 8L. Interestingly, both of those cars interiors were purchased from the same French subcontractor as DCX uses for several of their Mercedes brand products, including the S-500.

The name of that French company is Faurecia. Their website is 'www.faurecia.com' in case any of you would like further information.

On the topic of the higher-buck competitors to the upcoming STS, namely the XJ, 745i, 8L, and S-500 that I drove and compared during the last couple of weeks, those cars all had very refined road manners, with variations in flavor as reported by the car magazines. Particularly the Jag: Ford has endowed that car with a remarkably effect air suspension system that provides class leading smoothness and control (always a tough combo) that was notably more refined than the air suspension equipped S-500 and 8L sedans. The new STS has some really tough competition from these cars (and their smaller/cheaper stable mates); I hope that GM's development time has been well spent.

In terms of interiors, the interior of the 8L is stunning. No matter the space, panel, edge, surface, etc, the fit, finish, and materials usage are superb. If you're interested to see the benchmark in this product category, go visit an Audi dealer. Faurecia's 8L interior is in a different ballpark from what I saw in the STS prototype, and notably better than the now-stale interior in the S-500 and the slapped-together ergonomic mess that serves as the 745i interior.

Good for GM is that neither VW nor BMW yet seems to know how to produce a mechanically reliable product that is affordable to maintain after the mechanical warranty expires.

The XJ is in the middle: not as good as the audi 8L, but better than the STS prototype.

Regarding road behavior, if my experience with the CTS is any guide, the STS will potentially be very competitive with any of the above-described cars, particularly in the rumored 'v' variants with awd and/or a V-12 (!) engine.

The '05 STS is high on my list of candidate future cars to own; I just hope that GM places a call to Faurecia's US offices or takes some other steps to properly address that interior material quality and fit/finish issue. Although I'm very pleased with the elegant interior of my STS, it clearly exhibits lower fit/finish quality than the exemplary 8L.

libertycat · July 2003

Prototypes typically have AWFUL interior quality. The real one might be different.

msgreen · July 2003

again, thanks for posting your observations. As several of us have previously stated, Cadillac simply CANNOT get the STS "wrong" - it is just too important to their overall brand image and bottom line. In my opinion, "getting it wrong" can also include trying to shave a few hundred bucks off the price by skimping on interior materials, exterior paint, etc. I sure hope not, because anyone spending 50K+ is much more likely to be persuaded to buy based upon their impressions of quality, workmanship, etc, than by saving the relatively small amounts of money that would constitute the difference in materials costs. I have no idea how the STS prototype's interior will compare with the production version, but if Cadillac seriously wants to cut corners here, they will find many buyers pivoting on their heels in show rooms on their way down the street to the competition.

Kirstie_H · July 2003

Don't forget tonight's member-to-member open chat!

http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/townhallchat.html

6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. Pop in for live chat with other members. Hope you can join us!

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

merc1 · July 2003

Very interesting post. Someone else mentioned that Audi/VW and Mercedes and even Jaguar used the same supplier for some of their interiors. That is most interesting. I'm curious to know why you think the S500's interior is stale even after it's redo for 03? But I agree the A8 and Touareg are awesome inside and out concerning the A8. This level of interior build should help the Phaeton when it arrives, it's going to need a big advantage for 60K sitting on a VW showroom floor.

M

libertycat · July 2003

You have GOT to be kidding me. It is the second ugliest luxury SUV out there (platform-sharing Cayenne is the ugliest) and I'm not impressed with the interior at all. It looks very old-fashioned; as if this was an '80s car.

mbukukanyau · July 2003

Now, let me say this, I hope Cadillac is listening; they cannot afford not to be anything other than the benchmark in this market segment.
The STS has to be better than everyone in the market place. It also has to fetch a higher price. Because perception of quality goes with price. People buying cars in this segment tend to associate higher price with quality.
Another thing GM has to stop doing is Pushing Cadillacs with incentives.
The Zero% yes, But price discounts, just makes the car look cheap. They better build a few, and sell them for a profit and use others (such as Buick) as loss leaders.
Finally, Cadillac has to last long, and lead in quality surveys fit and finish, performance/environment, safety, etc.
Cadillac is in a position where, we are giving them one last chance. Its deliver or die!
Interior is where they should not go even try to visit a plastic factory. A cow hide shop would serve you better. The days of savings for you Cadillac should be out the door. Just build a me good car and Charge me for it. I believe a good segment of people willing to spend $55 K on a car feel the same.
Lastly do we need the CIA to get picture of this car?
I need to see something
I am willing to spend money, for something different. Cadillac, you have your chance.

notyourname · July 2003

http://cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2003/detroit/autoweek-forum/im- - - ages/awforum0121.jpg

the one on the right might be the sts because it is too round to be the cts and the DeVille is not in the pic so what is it

diablo4 · July 2003

Does anyone know what kind of engine they will put in it and the HP.

msgreen · July 2003

while visiting a dealer recently to look at the 04 CTS the rep told me that the upcoming STS would have two engine choices: a 3.6L V6, similar to that in the CTS, and a 4.6 V8 (Northstar). I have read similar predictions in a few articles, so there may be some truth to it. Now if there is a "V" version, it may have a version of the Corvette push rod engine....one way or the other, we should start to get more authoritative info by some of the Fall autoshows.

cadman88 · July 2003

Yes, that is the STS in that pic. The engines will be this: 3.6L V6 about 275hp. 4.6L Northstar, at least 320hp. The V-Series is an interesting topic. If the new V12 can fit, then that will be the engine, which will make at least 500hp. If it cant fit, then there will be a twin turbo Northstar putting out at least 475hp. Same goes for the XLR V. I dont think the Corvette's engine is going into the STS-V.

mbukukanyau · July 2003

I am impressed with GMs ability to keep the car in its skunkworks/phantomworks
Un-photographed. There is absolutely no sign of either the STS or the upcoming Corvette C6 on the web.
I happen to be a car enthusiasts and I have not seen a car draw such anticipation as the STS has drawn in a while.
Again, GM should not disappoint us. This car has to be better than, Benz E320, Beamier 5 series, Jaguar Type S, Lexus GS and Audi A6. They also have to make it a little pricier and refined than most Otherwise; guys will think it as a cheap alternative. Something like Infiniti. GM cannot afford to disappoint us here.

They will for ever be unforgiven by myself.

richw5 · July 2003

One of the managers at my local dealer informed me that Cadillac will be running the "Train Station" commercials again. Possibly in the August - September or September - October time frame.

If you look closely, the car appearing in the final 3 seconds, on the wall poster, is the STS. They took out the XLR and replaced it with a sneak preview of the STS.

It should be interesting to see how many people catch the change.

Rich

mbukukanyau · August 2003

http://www.guyhillcadillac.com/GHC/CTS2003.HTM

cadman88 · August 2003

Thats the CTS, not STS.
The title says "2003 Cadillac CTS"

blkcadillac · August 2003

In the September issue of Car and Driver and Road and Track both have pictures of the O5 STS. The R/T STS looks like a smaller 16 concept, and its one the road being driven, while the C/D looks like the old picture in Popular Mechanics a few months ago. Does anyone know which is the real STS.

cadman88 · August 2003

The C&D one is closer. Expect to see some differences, but not many.

diablo4 · August 2003

I hope caddy brings out the cien or 16 because i don't won't them to put a V12 in the sts.Does any one have info on this.

merc1 · August 2003

There will be no Cien or Sixteen, but there will be a V12 in the Escalade and some type of flagship car, that should resemble the Sixteen too a degree. The current V12 won't fit in anything other than the Escalade.

M

sevenfeet0 · August 2003

Mark LaNeve (Cadillac's general manager) said in a recent interview (Autoline Detroit) that Cadillac may not build "that car" (referring to the Sixteen) but that they will likely build "a car" in the ultra luxury segment. So watch this space...I imagine the next ultra-lux concept car that shows up will be a lot closer to something they could really sell.

And the 7.5L V12 started its life as a rogue engine project inside of GM and wound up in the Cien concept. It cost only $3 million to design and build. Even though the engine is too large to fit in anything but an Escalade, couldn't GM just design a smaller one...say about 6 liters?

cadman88 · August 2003

It will fit in the STS, they just wont admit it.

diablo4 · August 2003

I hope they put the C6 z06 engine in the XLR or the next CTS-V.

diablo4 · August 2003

How do you put picture in your messages and if you know try to explain it as simple as you can thank you.

mbukukanyau · August 2003

I would like to see real pictures of this car

mbukukanyau · August 2003

Look at the Bottom of the Page, There is your Sweet STS. Kicks all Butts (forgive my French)

http://www.cheersandgears.com/boards/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6778&- whichpage=1

sevenfeet0 · August 2003

This was a Photoshopped approxiamation. The real car could still look very different.

msgreen · August 2003

this is the same "photo" that Car and Driver (I think) displayed in their latest issue. Actually, I hope the STS does look much like this picture - AND - has a great interior. This follows the overall Cadillac styling theme but tempers some of the more extreme, angular features. Bring it on!...

cadman88 · August 2003

The real STS is in this thread:

Read all the pages and you'll be convinced.

We (I am Northstar there) were confused for a while, but the silver car on the left is the STS. You have to go through the pages and read.

cadman88 · August 2003

Is a real interesting thing: (posted on second page) "They work now. It would be a lot easier if the silver car werent the same color as the background. I just thought of something. Asuming the one on the left is a CTS, the three black cars are already in production and for sale. The SRX and XLR both go on sale later this year. They are both silver. That makes me think the silver one is another car that isnt for sale right now either."

wsag26 · August 2003

If GM creates the Seville replacement like that, GM will make a big comeback. I love my CTS, but what I love even more is that picture. I would love to have an American car and know that the European models are under it instead of over it. Trust me, GM needs to make the model like this, and if they do, forget the BMW M5. A 500 hp V-10 would look good in that car... If that may not be the STS... but the future Deville (DTS), oh well. I still would buy the DTS....

mbukukanyau · August 2003

Only GM Has the Muscle to Challege the Germans.

They have no excuse for not stepping up to the play.

I do not know if any GM Marketing and cost cutting accountants listen to us GM fans, But, This is what I have to say,
Guys

 Build, a Car that Has the following
 Handles better than any other
 Quietest interior
 The Highest quality interior
 Most powerful in Class
 Best Customer service Platform
 Best warranty
 And Most Expensive.
 Take the Brand global

If people want the best, let them pay for it.

Cadillac should become what America is to the world. Super power

msgreen · August 2003

In general, I agree with you; however, for Cadillac to charge the most, they MUST deliver in all the areas that you list. This cannot be about building boulevard cruisers for geezers. They must handle like BMWs/Porsche and have equivalent quality and reliability. I would INSTANTLY buy a Caddy like that and PRAY that the upcoming STS is in that category. Cadillac should keep one series (e.g. DTS or whatever) for their "traditional buyers", but the rest must NOT look/handle like that. The CTS and STS need to be thought of as SERIOUS competitors for the 3 and 5 series BMW, A4/6 Audis, and C/E Mercs, but they will not be seen that way without a MAJOR commitment at Cadillac (that won't change after the first earnings report comes in) to stick to this plan. As an American, I would buy a Caddy in a heartbeat IF I thought it was in the same league as my current 5 Series (E39 BMW). Cadillac is on the right track, but they cannot waver.

b4z · August 2003

Cadillac needs to have better reliability than BMW.

But I know what you mean.

Also the interior needs to be 3-4 steps up in design than the CTS, which is very basic.

mbukukanyau · August 2003

There is some plastic that hangs below the Bumper on all GM cars.
I hate it
that is the only thing that makes me not buy the Vette.

GM likes that silly plastic so much that they put it on the XLR. I could not believe my eyes

eaton53 · August 2003

"Cadillac needs to have better reliability than BMW."

They already do. Better than any German make... about equal to Honda and Toyota.

http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2003050bfull.gif

bhill2 · August 2003

similar to the CTS-V? I know it wouldn't arrive for a while after the STS is released, but it would be something to look forward to if you need a car larger than the CTS.

mbukukanyau · August 2003

BMW is like down there with Kia... and Mercedes Benz and Hyuday, Daewoo, Suzuki....

Well, I wonder why the press is alway singing to the tune of the almighty 3 series,

I bet a CTS is way better, and the STS should trash the 5 and E series

As long as Cadillac keeps plastic factories out of the equation

eaton53 · August 2003

Lucky #13... not bad at all and well above average.

b4z · August 2003

I didn't mean that Cadillac had bad reliablity just that if they wanted to compete they needed to better than BMW. (Perception wise and through empirical data)
They have to be so good that people talk about how reliable Cadillacs are. Much in the same way they talk about Hondas and Toyotas. Deserved or not.

eaton53 · August 2003

"I didn't mean that Cadillac had bad reliablity just that if they wanted to compete they needed to better than BMW. (Perception wise and through empirical data)"

When the head to head matchups come out this fall (SRX vs. X5, '04 CTS vs 330i, CTS-V vs M3) we will know how it's going. I expect the Cadillacs to win at least 2 of these comparos.

And BMW has no competitor for the XLR.

theo2709 · August 2003

I've seen the STS pics, yes plural, and I came away unimpressed. The front is OK, but the back is bad: flat, big, and boxy, with droopy, Deville-like taillights that are too tall. The interior is exactly the same as the spy-shot previously posted, and there are still fit-and-finish flaws which I hope will be corrected by production.

mbukukanyau · September 2003

I just want to register my disappointment/amazement/frustration with the folks at Cadillac. I have looked everywhere for pictures of this STS and the most I can come up with are computer generated models and canvas covered pictures of a purported STS.
I think they must be working on this car where Dick Cheney lives. (Undisclosed location) with a lot of secret service aid to keep it under cover. It seems like a classic covert operation.

I can hardly wait to see it. I hope its an evolved CTS design. I also hope it kicks MB, BMW and all those other guys butts

blkcadillac · October 2003

There is a spied shot of the 05' on Car and Drivers web page. You will need to go down to the bottom of the front page. Its down on the left.

theo2709 · October 2003

I think this is the best pic yet:

http://www.freep.com/money/autoreviews/cars25_20030925.htm

(You have to scroll down a bit)

pault1 · October 2003

Thanks for the info

msgreen · October 2003

I read the comparison of new cross-over SUVs in the latest Car and Driver with much interest. They rated the SRX first over the FX, Toureg, and Porche Cayenne, which was both gratifying and amazing. The one area that they marked the Caddy down was in overall fit/finish/materials where they said it was behind the German cars. We are only months away from the intro of the new STS which will be the Cadillac standard bearer. Lets hope that Caddy knocks themselves out to put in a first class interior and does everything possible to get this right. Buying a Lexus LS430 and a couple of Audis and studying their interiors should provide clues (which, since the design is set by now, I hope they did). In my opinion, there is absolutely NO point in trying to save a few bucks here only to turn off buyers in this segment who are used to top quality in the other marques. Getting the STS right will propel not only Caddy, but other GM lines as well....

bhill2 · October 2003

I am wholeheartedly in agreement with you about hoping that Cadillac actually puts a first-class interior into the new STS (and all new models). I really want to be proud of the quality of a US car again. I'm not getting my hopes up, however. The bean counters simply seem to own the show, and won't allow the money to be spent to put in 1st class material. I think they have some kind of delusion that they can save a few bucks by throwing in stuff out of the GM parts bin and no one will notice. They get their brains beat out over and over again on this, but they just don't learn.

Cadillac STS/STS-V: What's New for 2007?

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