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Comments
The whole point of this for example, is instead of having the majority of people head into the standard base model, to entice them into the higher trimmed models. Having more of the upper trimmed level also allows for a perceived quality feel, to the whole Freestar experience (as rediculous as it sounds, this what we've had to listen to and roll my eyes over).
Let's say you have 10 Freestars, out of those, 8 were standard, and 2 were Limited, the whole Freestar line is greatly depreciated on itself, ONLY because of that allocated amount. Take 10 Freestars, make 7-8 of them Limited, while 2 standard, believe it or not it's does better for depreciation in the used car market, and with customer's as well.
Proof? Take the VW Jetta or Passat. The majority are very well trimmed, YET you pay thru the nose for it. Realiability sucks, yet it rates highest in perceived value. Mainly this is because of equipment, and trim level allocations. You alienate those who want simple basics, but did they really want those consumer's? Answer: rebates. You can always upgrade, yet have the rebate bring the price down to something decent.
People complain about the lower depreciation on vehicles such as the Windstar, YET the issue is trying to be rectified on the Freestar, and this is one manner of attaining that goal. A best selling title in this segment was not the mission of the Freestar's design. Again, quality over quantity.
As for toys needed here and there, that all depends on consumer's. Example, I agree with the items on your list. But if I were to shop for a Minivan (never since I don't want kids) I would want the versatility of a bench and being able to squeeze 3 into it, than a bucket of 2. And other consumer's believe on that same philosophy. If need be, upgrade to higher trims, or Monterey if such a factor came into play.
And this isn't just in the Freestar, you have other vehicles like the Aviator, Navigator, etc. Where you have the option of a bench or buckets for the 2nd row. YET in THOSE vehicles, consumer testing showed people prefered bucket's, therefore they were kept/used/implemented as no cost options.
But overall, the emphansizes of the Freestar was quality over quantity, therefore they refined, retuned, etc. and with a rather LIMITED budget. IN fact, I was surprised at how much was done, with the amount the engineer's/designer's received. Therefore items might needed to be cut, to lower complexity costs in manufacturing. To make the vehicle profittable at certain price points.
This also means, more sales of SEL and Limited will be needed, to make up for the few that will choose the very standard models.
So many factor's are involved, and agree it will not please many people, but sometimes there's ways of going around the issue, and other times you shop the competitor's. I myself have not found the perfect vehicle....it has yet to be invented :-)
As a result of this, and their current $5,000.00 off, I am trying to obtain a 2003 windstar SE for around $22,500.00. If this works out, I'm glad I waited, If not, I'll have to look elsewhere. Unless they offer a big discount on the inflated Freestar.
Steve, Host
I just Bought an F-150 instead of the Toytota Tundra for two reasons. Toyota lacked a crew cab. The other was Toyota arrogance at having limited option combinations. I may have been able to do with out the crew cab but I was not about to buy lots of options I did not want to get the one I did want.
Ford allows you much more freedom to mix and match options so you can get what you want and leave out the stuff you do not want.
However, I do wonder why they do not phase in all the options over a year or two. Sell the expensive ones first then roll out the lower end models in mid year?
Of course that would not help if you are looking for a bargain. Unless you get the older model at a big discount with rebates.
The majority of those surveyed in these groups are picked by not having much knowledge about any vehicle in particular. So "HOW" they pick them, I'm not fond of that method. I say, they should ask people who actually KNOW about vehicles, be surveyed. But sometimes ignorance is bliss, so they are able to ask much more question by the "uneducated about vehicles" group, over the "educated about vehicles" group.
Think of it this way, if they were to survey us, there would have been SOOO many changes (specially powertrain) that we would have ended up with a $40K Maxiivan, by the time we were done. AND that's easily the reason why they rather not survey us....
I wasn't much concerned over the development of this vehicle, considering what will be replacing it in the future.. NOW THAT next minivan will have quite many toys, and it'll easily be the a tough contender in the market when it debuts. Waiting is just the part that's frustrating at this time.
But as just mentioned by the previous post, don't be surprised (HINT) if some of these items are phased in during the next year or 2... And have greater flexibility over options as well, which occurs every year on the product trim shuffles.
In looking at the mechanics of the rear seat, I can see why it is so low to the floor, compared to my current '02 Windstar. The new seat needs to fold flat in the forward mode, then flip over and hide in the well; like being "double jointed". There is no place for the current seat brackets to hide. I am glad my kids are sitting back there. It certainly would be painful for a 6' adult. This will probably quench the taxi crowd, but this unit is targeted for the "kid-van" crowd. When you add a car seat to the third row, then things are about right.
My observations "up front" (with a whole bunch of folks crawling all over the demo) was "ho-hum". Not too much as far as changes. The extra row of storage in the door is nice. The "pizza box" storage area in the center of the dash will hold about $20 in change in the well, plus a few maps. When I look at our "kid-van" Windstar, I see places for the loose stuff that now exists.
As I have said before, I have two units on order. Our personal one should arrive next week, an SEL. Corsica Jeff, don't get offended, but I like the accessory mix. We ordered the SEL without leather and I only added a few things, like the side curtains, 6 CD unit and center console. What made me mad was the fact to get the side mirrors with the turn signals, I was forced to order a package which included a digital dash, "the message center". The blinkers I conside safety, the digital dash is fluff. Since I hate a digital dash in any vehicle, we passed on that option. ANT said some folks don't want a center console. My company unit doesn't have a console from Ford, hence, it has a $30 console unit from WalMart, which is very functional when installed reversed, front-to-rear, from the instructions. The striped company unit will show up around Xmas.
Bottom line, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.....
Randy
Trainboy- I believe the Explorer has better leg room on the 3rd row, over the Freestar... I wasn't fond of how it was engineered, BUT it needed to be done, and at minimal cost, so this was the best solution.
Next generation minivans will have the dissapearing 3rd row seats, BUT also be able to fit AWD if need be. That platform can handle supplying both of these comfortably.
Something to note, a feature I like about the Freestar's 3rd row is the tail gating option (copied from the Mazda MPV) which is great for tail gating parties. And the headrests do NOT need to be removed, to make the seat dissapear either which is another item people have liked.
Readers on this board should also know that at least some of what you've been disclosing is incorrect (it may have been at one time, but product plans change). I won't say how much or what statements are wrong because that would be indirectly revealing confidential information, but don't believe everything you read.
Since when is educating consumer's and giving them insight, something that's "just wrong". If the topic is things that are "just wrong" we can address the issues when people spend $20-60K on a vehicle, and can't get answers to their questions. Whether it's information pertaining to their vehicle, or anticipation of a future products and personally that is "just wrong".
So either I'm part of the problem by ignoring it, or part of the problem by addressing it. Either way, we can't always make everyone happy and I'm sorry if you fit into the latter.
http://media.ford.com/products/press_article_display.cfm?article_- id=16422&vehicle_id=939&make_id=92
Rose
The anger comes from those in the market for a $28,000 SES who discover that a DVD system is not included in the base price and not even offered as an option.
Buyers of lesser Freestars will have to go the aftermarket route.
http://www.arifleet.com/production.html
Rose
If you do use a portable device, there are accessories out there that let you strap them in quickly for safety's sake.
Steve, Host
The story with the DVD system is it's late availability (yet to be determined) $1395.00. It'll be available as an option on SE, SES, SEL & Limited, NOT available in Freestar Standard. Also, to be able to pick this option, you will need to pick the Rear A/C option as well, which is around $580-600 I believe.
My friend has a VCR in a bag that made me very uncomfortable. If the vehicle were to roll, it's guaranteed to let loose. And I have no idea whether it would stay put in any other kind of crash. I make the assumption (for myself and my kids sake) every time I get in a car that THIS will be the time I end up in a crash.
Rose
Car Seat Tech
Fortunately (for Ford) your "inside information" is frequently very wrong and out of date (even statements you have made in recent days). But unfortunately for the readers of these boards you're leading them to make uneducated decisions by spreading misinformation about future product plans.
I know there's nothing anyone can say to make you change your behavior, but at least I can help everyone else on this board by letting them know that you usually don't know what you're talking about when it comes to future products.
2) No more illuminated glove box. Ford's "best minivan ever" dropped these little cute thing they always used to offer, even on the older Aerostars. Is this the best minivan Ford had ever built?
I also disagree with the 'quality materials'. The glove box and center stack storage compartments feels soo cheap, like toys. The controls are so soft and light, for example if you want to turn the A/C knob from 0 to 2, you will automatically turn it to 4. if you will turn it back to 2 it will go back to 0. You almost can NOT feel you turning something. Is this what quality stands for? And all those switches around the audio system feels so cheap... if you press any switch, the next one will press itself along.. (hope you understand).
The FIRM brakes which everybody is so excited about it, I thing it's too much. You hardly notice that you can push the brake. It's too tight.
I still have a lot of minor complaints. Bottom line: I'm not impressed with the Freestar. Not to say it's bad - but I expected to feel better in it than in my current Windstar - but no. I want back my Windstar, and I like it more!
ANT14: I don't know your rules, but I enjoy most of your posts, and I thing that at least 95% are true. Don't feel bad. I couldn't see why it should be wrong to tell everybody that a new minivan is due in 2006. What's the secret?
Therefore I have my validity in my stories, but I don't see your sharing information otherwise. It's very comfortable for you to point fingers and name call and state I'm misleading, YET you show no proof that I might be incorrect. And you will probably reply with "Well I have more integrity, I will not share such information"... Which is a convinient scape-goat. Yet still doesn't rectify the situation.
So in that case, I would question what your reasoning for being on these forums might be. Or who led you TO them for one reason or another. And what your purpose is since you aren't really sharing anything positive. Don't be shocked, but there's actually other's on these boards that work in the industry and share insightful information. And this doesn't pertain to just future information, but past/current developments.
But now that I think about it, to have someone upset over me in relation to this, just reintorates the fact that I'm correct, because no one else would go thru that much effort as you have placed. There's many things in life that people do that might be seen wrong, by one group or another, but I'm not sorry it displeases you.
http://www.cars.com/carsapp/national/?szc=33174&srv=parser&am- p;act=display&tf=/features/mvp/ford/freestar/freestar_overvie- w.tmpl
Thanks
Rose
Thanks,
Randy
Steve, Host
WE ordered the limited and let me tell you, my wife and I looked at the interior and thought it was beautiful the car overall in our opinion is handsome. I'm anxious to drive the vehicle. I will except it this Friday. I honestly don't expect to be disappointed.Ive owned one Aerostar two Windstar's and now the FREESTAR.
One more note, there is only a $1,000 rebate, until 12/01/03
Good luck,
Randy
Thanks
Please let your voice be heard!
I'm sure the SE your looking at has a number of options, which should make that $22,000 a good price. The base invoice price for that car is $28,053, beside the $5,000 rebate there are $500 loyalty rebate + $1500 if you finance though Ford,s FMCC. If you qualify for the $500 + $1500 and their are a number costly options, go for the $22,000, if it's basic, offer them $21,000. Waiting for further rebates is a gamble you'll have to take.
Good luck.
By the way what are you driving?
If it were up to me, I would have preferred a "maxi-minivan" on a RWD or AWD DEW98 Platform (basis of the Lincoln LS, Jag-Stype, Tbird) throw in the 4.0L SOHC V6 as standard, 4.6L OHC V-8 as an optional engine. BUT reality is, that can't be the case given the investment and development needed for such a vehicle. As was mentioned before, every vehicle has it's pros and cons, that is why there's so many different products in the market, each to suit someone's preferrences as closely as possible.
My question for you is this - why did Ford choose to go with a four speed instead of a five speed transmission. Does Ford even have plans for a five speed front drive transaxle or are they banking on the development of CVT technology for their next generation of passenger cars (Futura/500).
I also noticed that the F150 came to market with a four speed unit. Why hasn't Ford developed a five speed for the F150/CV/MM/TC/Expedition? Are they waiting to introduce their six speed automatically shifted manual boxes?
When transmissions are developed/engineered/designed,
their are 3 main factors to consider. If their application will be applied to RWD, FWD or AWD-4WD configurations, the power/torque output of the engine it'll be coupled with, and overall vehicle structure/load/stress.
As you may have read on here, the 3.8/9-4.2L Essex engines will be dropped in the future, therefore they received limited changes (as well as their coupled tranmissions the 4F50N ). If we search thru Ford's parts bin of other engines and transmissions available, the CLOSEST combo they could have used might be the 4.0 SOHC V-6 found in the Explorer. Issue? It's configrued for RWD/4WD, not Freestars FWD layout. Let alone, the Freestar's structure would have needed additional re-engineering to accept it.
I mention that engine (nicknamed Cologne after the city in Germany it's built in), since it's power and torque outputs are closest to the Essex engines. The Freestar is a heavy vehicle, so torque is much more of a priority. Placing the Duratec 3.0L V6 found in the Taurus, might WORK for the Mazda MPV since it's much lighter, but definatly not on the Freestar since it's transmission would NOT have been able to sustain the extra weight the Freestar possesses over the Mazda MPV. The Cologne engine would also require additional plant re-investment in Germany, whereas the Essex engine plant in N.A. needs the work because of U.A.W. contract issues.
Closest to that, Ford really doesn't have any other V-6 engine with a higher torque output, and closest engine along the power line would be Ford's Triton 4.6L SOHC V8. I'm purposely NOT mentioning the 3.9L DOHC V8 found in the Lincoln LS, since it's quite an expensive engine, and Ford will keep that engine design exclusively for Jaguar.
IN another senario, Ford could have opted to place "an extra gear" in the 4F50N tranmission. But in reality, it's benefits would have only been gained on maybe an additional MPG on the highway run. Let's not forget, this is an OHV engine design, where it's output is maximized down low, therefore having the extra gear, might be only beneficial on highway cruising at that. (take note, the Cologne engine brings a 5/Auto). A OHC design engine would benefit much more from a 5Speed automatic, since the majority need to climb up on revolutions, for decent output.
This year, the 4F50N tranmission was given a much improved torque converter, that allows for much better launch from stops. Also a new 5 pinion final drive gear replaced the previous 4 pinion version for better shifts. And faster hydraulics improve shift performance and refinement. I've read of 2 reviews already in which the auto journalist pointed out the vast improvement from the old system onto the new one. If someone on this board has test driven it, and noticed the improvement, let us know... I myself instantly felt it.
In case your thinking, "Why not just design a totally new tranmission?" That is a budget issue, plus it wouldn't make good business sense since whatever transmission they would have designed for it, would have been killed upon the next generation of Ford Minivans introduced and not be able to be phased in any other vehicle.
So ALLLLLL this I have mentioned above, hopefully will answer your first question as to why Ford elected to upgrade the current transmission, over adopting another. IN a nutshell, I hope the factors above can show you it's NOT as easy considering the numerous factors involved.
To the next question if Ford is planning on developing 5Speed FWD tranmissions, YES that's already being worked on. There's a new line of fuel efficient transmissions that are being developed by Ford, there's one series of engines that Ford will co-design/engineer with GM (said to improve fuel efficiency 10-12%). These include 6 Speed automatics for FWD applications. (Ford has issued a press release over this, NO big secret).
Would these transmissions be phased into vehicles starting this year? No, these transmissions will first go into Ford products that aren't with us yet, and the development of these tranmissions have started just recently.
Ford has also announced (no big secret either) how it'll use CVT's as well. CVT's have a special world of it's own, and it's applications are somewhat limited depending on the vehicles/loads/torque outputs. But yes, we will see more of those.
***Side note, Ford is working with Torotrak http://www.Torotrak.com on developing an IVT. (Infinitly Variable Transmission)...
What makes an IVT better than a CVT? You can use it on any sized vehicle,load, output, and Torotrak is testing it's IVT in a 5.4L Expy. The vehicle cruises at 70-80MPH on/around 1000RPM's. Personally, I believe the future of CVT's, is on IVT's, but that's still being refined.
Next question, the F-150 debuted with a 4SpeedAuto because of some factors similar to that of the Freestar, BUT you will have new tranmissions being phased in, in the first couple of years to answer this. The current/previous tranmissions in the F-150 do not have a history of issues such as the famed Windstars, therefore it might be a smarter alternative to stick to something that works, over trying something new that might distort the launch of the F-150.
***Side note: Ford has stated publically that it will improve vehicle components through generations/redesigns, rather than introduce totally new components. Japanese manufacture's have used this approach which is why they have been able to control their quality issues since they use a higher percentage of carry over parts from one generation to another, over domestic manufacturer's.
Compared to the two major contenders, the Sienna drove nice, but as I said, the trim was very weak. The demo unit we drove had 180 miles and the plastic trim on the floor was all torn up where the seats attach. Also, I cannot see the logic of using an engine that requires premium fuel in a kid hauler. Maybe the Freestar is less technically advanced under the hood, but I save 20 cents a gallon and that adds up. We tried the Honda Ody, but we are both too tall and that vehicle punishes front seat occupants that are over 5'-8" in height; we are both 6'. Also the Honda does not offer a driver's keypad on the door. As parents of small children we have locked our keys in the car on a regular basis and I don't think we are alone here. The key pad has saved us a bunch of times.
We did find a few flaws with the unit once we got it home. We ordered the power side doors but we did not get the key fob that operates the side doors. That should be an easy fix. Another possible problem is with the side canopy air bag. The icon on the dash annunciator panel shows front airbags only. We can see the side airbags, but it appears that maybe the wrong icon is programmed or is the side canopy not enabled? We will get that one looked at as well. The driver's door seems twisted in that the rear seam is not parallel front or rear to the next door/panel. It seems off about 3/16" top to bottom. The problem that really makes me mad is the paint quality. We ordered the Arizona Beige Clearcoat. We found one paint flaw with dirt on a horizontal ledge under the rear windows. The service guy at the dealers said they would repaint that area. Once we got home, without looking too hard, I found 10 more paint flaws of dirt, paint "boogers", or drips in the clearcoat off the back door corners. Ford has a real problem here with quality. On top of that, whoever filled the unit with gas at the dealers gouged the paint inside the filler well. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for us to endure a repainted vehicle, so we will be talking to the dealer tomorrow.
I really don't have a problem with the use of the pushrod 4.2V6 - as long as Ford fixed the head gasket problems that afflicted the previous generation of this motor. In fact, I was glad to see Ford touting torque as an important aspect of engine output unlike other manufacturers who continuously brag about horsepower.
No doubt Ford fixed the shift quality of the transaxle used in the Freestar, but did they solve the durability problems that afflicted the previous generation? I know you referenced several modifications, but are you confident that these will do the trick? There is a saying we use around the office - "You can't polish a turd". I hope this doesn't hold true for the 4F50N.
Given your message, we shouldn't expect to see a five speed automatic or a different engine option in this generation of Freestar, correct?