Nice post on milage. Wow, you must really be putting on the miles! Are you adding about 9 gallons when you fill? If so, you look to be on a 25,000+ miles/year pace.
I ordered a 2004 package #9 on Feb 24th from Miller Toyota, Manassas, VA. I was told it would be 4-5 months. Got a call this week, it will be in next week. First choice of color. MSRP for the car was $25,998, $829.78 for tax, $49.50 tags, $188 fees (not sure what this is) for a total of $27065. They did tell me when they called that Toyota raised the price $300. So, I ordered the car before March 1, but they claim to know nothing about refunding the $300. Where did you hear about this?
That is really interesting, John. I'll be anxious to see how it looks after you have had the car for a whole year. I've got a 2003 that over the first year averaged about 45 mpg, actual gas measurement. I think that is close to what you got on your Classic Prius. Looks like you will be a good 10% higher with your new Prius by the time the year is up.
I received a letter from Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. telling me that the price went up by $300.00. The letter stated that their records show that I ordered my Prius before March 10th. To show their appreciation they will offer a payment of $300.00 only if I take delivery of a 2004 Prius with the increased MSRP. They will mail a check for the $300.00 approximately 6-8 weeks after I take delivery.
They gave me a phone number to call if I had any questions. 1-800-331-4331. You might want to give them a call.
Yes, I check eBay now and then and have noticed many a Prius, new and slightly used, with current bids over MSRP. I can only figure out that these bidders are cross-shopping the Prius to other mid-sized cars or perhaps even near-luxury cars or small SUVs, which would be in the low-to-mid-$20s for price, or price is not the major consideration for them.
I do not believe the Toyota Prius hybrid concept will be successfully "ported" to vehicles with HP/performance expections much above that of the Prius.
--I'd hate to see you part with your money, wwest, but here's a quote from the Lexus website...
"Conventional wisdom says that high driving performance and superior fuel efficiency cannot be achieved in the same vehicle. We have proved this wisdom wrong with the new RX400h fitted with Lexus hybrid technology, and taken SUV driving to a new and different dimension." O. Sadakata, RX400h Chief Engineer
Only so much energy can be recovered with regenerative braking, probably not much more per vehicle pound than the Prius. All other energy MUST come from the ICE and the high energy loss in using the ICE to recharge the batteries will always result in a net loss vs an ICE adequate to the job alone.
--Uhm, so what's the energy efficiency of your ICE when it's stuck in traffic or idling at a red light as compared to a hybrid with its engine shut off? What's the energy efficiency of your ICE when it's cruising down the highway as compared to a much smaller engined hybrid cruising at the same speed? A hybrid does not live on regenerative braking alone!
> All other energy MUST come from the ICE and the high energy loss in using the ICE to recharge the batteries
Due to the PLANETARY-CVT, the ICE is able to run at a more efficient RPM than possible in a traditional vehicle. The effect of that is a much lower overall loss from recharging. The net result is a gain, allowing you to squeak out higher efficiency than an engine alone could achieve.
I was told I could order an RX400h back in 03 and take delivery in the spring, April, was "proposed". Then it was moved into summer, then fall, now early 05.
In truth I lost complete interest when Lexus started touting V8 performance. I didn't buy the 03 Prius for HP performance, V6 power out of the small I4. I was/am perfectly satisfied with reasonable I4 performance and EXCELLENT fuel economy.
I have an 01 AWD RX330 and have no complaints about HP performance.
I have owned two Jeep Cherokee Limiteds, the first, an 85, with a Chevy V6, and the second, a 92, with the I6, and both of these weighted substantially more than an AWD RX, and even the 92, still being productive on a cattle and wheat ranch in north central MT, only had 190HP.
More than enough HP IMMHO.
If someone needs more HP than an RX200h would offer, let them buy elsewhere.
Are you intentionally trying to confuse people, or just not a careful reader?
I said PLANETARY-CVT not regular type of CVT.
There is a very significant difference between the way the types work. It is impossible for a regular (cone & belt) CVT to interact with 3 devices the way the PLANETARY one does in Prius.
"Only so much energy can be recovered with regenerative braking, probably not much more per vehicle pound than the Prius."
Regenerative braking is one of the way hybrids improve their efficiency. Prius(2,890 lbs) has 50kw motor to recharge 200 volt battery. Escape Hybrid(3,627 lbs) has 70kw motor to recharge 300 volt battery. RX400h(4,000lbs?) will have 120kw motor to recharge 400 volt battery. If you do the math, RX400h will have more power to weight ratio, performance HSD. That does not necessary mean it can recover less from regenerative braking. It just means that when you brake hard, more energy can be recapture while brake pads does not kick in as fast as Prius.
"All other energy MUST come from the ICE and the high energy loss in using the ICE to recharge the batteries will always result in a net loss vs an ICE adequate to the job alone."
HSD gains efficiency from attacking inefficiencies from ICE and transmission. In traditional cars with automatic transmission, radiator has to cool the engine and the transmission using two separate . Atkinson cycle engine generates 15% less heat(waste gas) than an Otto cycle ICE. HSD planetary ECVT is permanently engaged with ball baring gears and generate very little heat due to non-existent friction. BUT, HSD has the Inverter that needs to be cool. Toyota use solid state semi-conducting Inverter which generate less heat. By looking at Prius' cooling system, I can tell you that HSD generates less heat because Prius' radiator cools the ICE+Motors, Inverter, and acts as A/C condenser. How much efficiency is lost due to Inverter vs. automatic transmission? I don't know the answer to it but I can find out and post at a later time.
Now, we are clear that HSD gains efficiency by reducing areas that generate heat and waste gas at the brake, engine, and transmission. Let's analyze the battery. Prius can recharge it's battery from min state of charge in about one minutes at ICE max hp. The power in the battery will be use only when it is most beneficial. Otherwise, why even have the battery and generate electricity on-the-fly? So, it does not matter how battery power is generated either from engine or by regen braking.
After more than 6 months on the wait list I took delivery last night of my Silver '04 Prius with the AM package. Dealer now says there is a 2 year wait and they have stopped taking orders. I suppose that's good for the resale value of my car, but it just does not make sense. If there is this amount of interest in "Green" vehicles, especially with the environmental issues we are facing, the Administration and Congress should increase the incentives for automakers to respond.
Just got a quote from Champion Toyota in Houston for :
>I have no way of knowing the price >of a 2005 model. I can tell you that a >2004 model with the package #9 will cost >$22152 plus TT&L. As the production >dates change, we will be notified of >the price changes. Let me know how I >may assist you.
>Julie
I AM GOING FOR IT!!!!!!!!!! Is this a grat price or what??
What side is that? The very next sentence you provided completely contradicts that claim. I strongly believe HSD can and should be scaled up. That sounds like the total opposite to me.
How many of the "efficiencies" you quote cannot be readily ported to any ICE??
The Atkinson cycle, for instance, is simply an earlier design version (subset)(1930's) of the miller cycle (late 40's) used in the Mazda Millenia S. Net result is a "longer" power stroke to allow more complete burning of the fuel/air mixture.
And by the way, during "hard" braking (approaching the need for ABS activation wherein the regenerative cycle might interact adversely with ABS) the regenerative cycle is completely off-line. The regenerative system is only used during light to moderate braking, during coastdown (throttle closed), to retard persistent cruise control overspeed, and to simulate engine lagging torque to the drive wheels. The latter method is only used if the batteries are in serious need of recharging.
Totally and completely in the Toyota Prius design concept***.
I do not believe that this concept should be "prostituted" by sacrificing fuel economy to satisfy a few wannabe MACHO types that think HP/Torque, the V8 engine, is the end all and be all.
And as an engineer I am of the firm belief that the Prius hybrid concept cannot be scaled to the RX platform while providing V8 HP/torque performance and sensible fuel economy.
Additionally my gut tells me that compromising the design to achieve V8 performance in the RX rather than settling for the current level of V6 performance and the resulting absolutely STELLAR fuel economy is just plain a sin against humanity.
*** To be entirely fair, I bought the 03 Prius partially to experiment with the possibility of improving its hwy MPG by disabling the ICE only battery recharge cycle during "cruise".
"The Atkinson cycle, for instance, is simply an earlier design version (subset)(1930's) of the miller cycle (late 40's) used in the Mazda Millenia S. "
Yes, Mazda did it with a supercharger to complement weak low-end torque. It can be done but will it make sense? No, it failed due to a set of inefficiencies and extra cost that supercharger brought. In a HSD, high torque electric motor(supercharger) is a given in hybrid equation.
" during "hard" braking (approaching the need for ABS activation wherein the regenerative cycle might interact adversely with ABS) the regenerative cycle is completely off-line."
You make a good point. There will be limit on how fast regenerative cycle can recapture depending on the road conditions. On snow or ice, regen braking peak electricity will be limited but can capture most of the energy over a longer period of time.
" do not believe that this concept should be "prostituted" by sacrificing fuel economy to satisfy a few wannabe MACHO types that think HP/Torque, the V8 engine, is the end all and be all."
Then, you will end up on the same boat as midnight cowboy. He feels that people shouldn't drive a car as "slow" as Prius. Toyota shouldn't even design a car like Prius. He wants a performance HSD. You are in the opposite end as midnight cowboy where you prefer efficiency/fuel economy. It is wrong to decide for others. Choice is always good.
The way I see this situation is that RX400h or any other bigger HSD cars give up fuel economy for size. BUT the efficiency of HSD system will not change much. The drivetrain will get bigger and powerful but efficiency benefit in contrast to similar traditional car would stay the same since HSD is highly salable. In short, no matter how you tune HSD, for performance or fuel economy, HSD efficiency is always about twice greater than ICE only cars. The more HSD is available in all type of car, the better. It might pollute a little more to produce HSD cars but over a long run(1-2years), overall pollution will be less than traditional cars.
Analyze and stop being so anal, especially on John! You'll need to know this equation:
MG1 = 3.6 * ICE - 2.6 * MG2
From that equation, you can make a nomograph. What is a nomograph? By definition, it is a chart that allows you to easily solve equations involving three variables by drawing straight lines. In the case of the Prius transmission nomograph, the three variables are the rotational speeds (the RPMs) of MG1 (the generator), the Engine, and MG2 (the motor).
Note: Above graph represents MG1 6,500RPM limit of the classic Prius. 2004 Prius can spin from -10,000RPM to 10,000RPM. ICE max RPM is also raised to 5,000RPM.
Here is how to read the graph. The green line basically shows Prius travelling at 22mph purely on electricity since engine RPM is zero. The blue and red lines shows Prius travelling at different speeds with the same ICE 1,700 RPM. In any given instant, Prius CPU can calculate the most efficient RPM for a given speed or situation. Prius CPU can also adapt to the highest performance line on the graph. The setup is extremely flexible.
Well, according to these posts there are a lot of IDIOTS that have purchased a Prius . . . not just the pointy-headed intellectual know-it-alls! Just kidding, of course!! How simple do the manufacturer's have to make a car, so that a typical animal can get behind the wheel and drive safely(???) at 60+ mph!!! Great posts. Thanks for the laugh!
The 1985 Jeep Cherokee did not come in Limited form (which was introduced for the 1987 model year). The Laredo was the top of the line in the Cherokee for 1985.
The Cherokee did not "weighted substantially more than the AWD RX".
The 4 dr. 4WD Cherokee had a curb wieight of 3,100 lbs. The '01 RX300 AWD has a curb weight of 4,950. Thats nearly 2k pounds!
"The '01 RX300 AWD has a curb weight of 4,950". No, it is 3960 pounds off by a 1k lbs. The difference though would still be about 1000 lbs more for the Lexus.
3100 lbs for a 4WD Jeep Cherokee, two solid axles with full "third members" and a tranfer case. If the 01 AWD RX is 3924, then the Jeep must be at least 500 lbs greater.
I'll call my wife's sister in MT tomorrow and see if the owners manual has that info.
Will the air conditioning always be on (assuming of course that the A/C Auto is activated and the windows are left up) when cabin cooling is required? Say for example that the car has been sitting in the sun with an outside temp of 70 and a cabin temp of 80. If you have the climate control set at 75, will the car just vent in the cooler outside air? Or will the A/C automatically fire up? I assume the later, but just wondering.
Can't say about the new one but prior to the 04 model the A/C system was flawed. Yes, it will turn on the A/C, and it will change the airflow mode to recirculate, to LOCK all that hot air within the car to be cooled by the A/C rather than bringing in the cooler air first and then going into recirculate mode.
To be fair the owners manual does say to drive with the rear windows lowered for a few miles to flush the heated air and to help to more quickly cool the super-heated interior materials.
Personally in those conditions I always try to remember to immediately over-ride the recirculate mode and put it intop fresh.
Go for it!! Even if you find out it doesn't meet your needs, you could make a quick profit on it by reselling it on eBay or elsewhere (plus keep the $1500 tax deduction).
Or maybe you'll love it so much you'll keep it. ;-)
P.S. Be sure this isn't a case of a typo first. It sounds to good to believe. Meaning it probably is.
There are 2 purposes of A/C, not just 1 as you believe.
The first is to cool the air.
The second is to remove the humidity from it.
For some of us, since we live in humid areas, the second is actually more important. So recirculating is more effective. And realistically, most people are well aware of the fact that opening the windows for a moment will provide cooling much faster than even having the air-vents on full-blast.
Seattle, humid, but not HOT and humid, had enough of that growing up in AR.
Your point is very well taken, but I wasn't proposing not using the A/C, just using it more efficiency.
If the vehicle has been setting in the hot sun all day the interior atmosphere is very likely quite a bit above ambient, and the interior materials are certainly quite warm, heated, as a result.
Now, which would be more efficient, using fresh mode to cool the incoming outside air down from 75F(??), all the while forcing the hot, 100F(??) interior air out at the rear exhauster port(s).
Or, like the flawed factory design, go immediately to recirculate, trapping the interior atmosphere with a temperature elevated to 100F and using the A/C to cool it down to your comfort level.
Now as too humidity, 100% RH, while clearly extreme, with temperatures below 65F, are not generally discomforting to the human body at rest. So the use of A/C when the OAT is below 65F is clearly needless for most of the earth's human population.
A/C and Demist/defog:
A/C can clearly be useful for dehumidification purposes during the colder months to help prevent windshield and window fogging. But here again the Prius (Toyota/Lexus/NipponDenso/Denso USA) climate control design is flawed.
Your Prius relies exclusively on the A/C to defog/demist the windshield/windows should that event occur. By design, your A/C is completely non-functional below about 35F. So the only method available to you at these temperatures, should windshield fogging occur, is to manually intervene with the system and turn the heat up to a HIGH level, QUICKLY.
Additionally, when the outside air is below ~47F, the RH humidity is typcially so low that an A/C evaporator operating, by design, at 33F or above, cannot cool the incoming airflow close enough to dewpoint to efficiently lower its RH.
I agree is sounds like the AC could more effectively manage the cooling and your solution makes a lot of sense. I also thought, contrary to John's statement that ALL ACs dehumidified as well as cooling. In fact, many cars automatically use the AC to dehumidfy and defog the windows in the winter in the defrost mode .
The only ACs I know of that only cooled and didn't dehumidify were the ones we used when I was growing up: the 4/55s
For that matter, how you could even prove I was even referring to a car?
Remember, vague works both ways. I can't get more specific than the original question provided. And in this case, "flaw" is implied overall even though it isn't. In the grand scheme of things, having recirculate a default and taking an initial hit will still result in a greater savings when used long enough. Of course, if you are smart enough to just air out the car in the first place, it is totally a non-issue.
It seems whenever John, wwest, or MidnightCowboy says anything we have to go through pages and pages of back and forth bickering. Let's face it guys, you aren't going to agree on most things. It's not bad to state your point and let it be! As passionate as you all are about your views, the other is just as passionate. Also, I have heard several times references to mistatements and wrong information.
This forum is not the end-all, be-all source for accurate information. So someone says something that may be incorrect. We should all know that anything on the internet is 50% unreliable anyway and needs to be substantiated. I doubt any responsible person is going to take information in a forum where they know nothing of the contributors and use it as absolute truth.
I've enjoyed having John back. Do we need to make it so vitriolic that he leaves?
Everyone's view, information and comments are important in a forum situation. No one, however is infalable.
Strangely enough, the bickering actually does serve a purpose. It's an excellent diversion.
June, July, and August data will make those less-than-enthusiastic about the technology think twice. But in the meantime, we have to stall while that data is being collected.
This morning was my warmest ever morning commute with the 2004. At 77F degrees with a high humidity, the Prius was in heaven. The MPG rode delightly high the whole trip. Now after 332 miles, this tank is displayed as getting 56.6 MPG. That's just plain sweet, something the media has claimed impossible.
Over the past 3 years with a Prius... June is typically the worst summer month. July is better. August is the best.
It is generally impossible, laws of physics intervene, to cool the air without dehumidifying it. That's why all air conditiioners have some method of draining the condensate away or disposing of it by some other method.
Of course there will be times, as I have already stated, that the A/C in your car cannot cool the airflow to a low enough temperature to reach its dewpoint.
But those times are totally unpredictable by any means readily available to the general public. So IMMHO there is no harm in saying A/C's ALWAYS dehumidify when cooling the airflow.
midcow...
Those were, are, evaporative coolers, technically not air conditioners as the term is most commonly used nowadays. These are actually airflow HUMIDIFIERS, and work most efficiently in hot and dry climates, or at least with low RH.
Actually my post was missing a comma; I scripted a correction but somehow my posting missed the 30 minute window. My comment was that All airconditioners dehumidfy. The previous post implied that air conditioners had two functions : (1) cool and that (2) dehumidify was not always a function. I agree with you.
The old air conditioner I was referring to that didn't dehumidify was 4/55, rolling down al four windows on the highway at 55 miles per hour; most cars didn't have air conditioners back then.
For a change from the usual programming on this board, here’s a (long) post about the Prius and its features ;-)
This weekend I decided to rent a Prius from my Toyota dealer. It was $49 per day (Dallas area) with 150 miles per day included. It was fully loaded (package #9). This was a fun experience that I would thoroughly recommend to anyone who is thinking of buying a Prius. The rental was handled through the dealer’s collision center so I didn’t have to go near a salesperson.
Here are some of my thoughts & observations, in no particular order:
- There is a lot of leg room, front and back. I did a short trip with five people and they were all very comfortable. The car just feels roomy. Headroom is good in the front, just OK in the back. A “standard” 6 foot person would probably be comfortable in the back but I have a long torso and my head was brushing the roof.
- I thought the acceleration was surprisingly brisk (even with 5 people). I never felt short of power.
- I was extremely impressed with the seamless way the computer manages the power. Most of the time I couldn’t even feel or hear the gas engine starting and stopping, and when I could feel it the jolt was less than that of a regular automatic car shifting.
- The brakes were a little difficult to modulate at times. Mostly this was when I was already braking softly and then realized I needed to brake harder – I found I tended brake much too hard. I imagine I would get used to this over time.
- The automatic climate control seemed to work very well.
- I found the touch screen very usable except when direct sunlight hits it – they could easily have put a deeper hood over it.
- It’s weird to have a calendar built into the car. This would be a lot more useful if I could beam appointments to it from my PDA.
- The service reminders will be useful - anyone know if they are retained if the battery is disconnected for servicing?
- Why on earth should I have to manually set the clock on a car that contains a GPS unit??? They should be integrated.
- I thought the seats were nice and firm, the fabric seems of good quality, but it has an upright seating position that will take some getting used to for me – it made my upper back hurt until I figured out that I needed to move the seat much further forward than in other cars. I would have liked a telescoping steering wheel.
- I thought the overall ride quality was pretty good, though a little “floaty” for my taste. The tires chirp easily on corners but it never felt like it was going to break loose. Body roll was also a bit more than I like, but not objectionable.
- Crosswinds affect this car more than most.
- I got 46mpg over 300 miles according to the computer. This was mixed city/highway, A/C on most of the time, and included some pretty aggressive driving. I found myself accelerating pretty briskly from stop lights, though I was careful to avoid hard braking as I know this hurts regeneration. I also found myself going way over the speed limit without realizing it – the high seating position and quiet interior makes it feel like I’m not going very fast.
- I’m not too keen on the hard plastic interior, though I could deal with it. I just wonder how easily it scratches.
- This car loves to beep! Seatbelts off, reversing, locking, unlocking, door ajar, you name it this car will find a reason to beep about it. There’s a big table in the owner’s manual explaining what all the different beeps mean! I understand the reverse beeping can be disabled.
- When not beeping, the car seemed very quiet.
- There’s plenty of storage space – I especially noticed the double glove box, massive center console bin, big hidden compartment under the hatchback floor, and bottle holders in the door side pockets.
- As with most hatchbacks the cargo capacity is good and very flexible. The front passenger seat reclines all the way for carrying long objects. This car is definitely way better then a typical sedan for Home Depot trips.
- I found the Nav system easy to use and it seemed to be very accurate and gave clear directions. It wouldn’t let me type in an address or perform many other setup functions while moving. This is obviously a safety-related design decision, but I’d like to be able to override this lock-out if I have a passenger who can do the programming.
- Most people I showed the Prius to asked about plugging it in to recharge the batteries!
- The Smart Key feature is awesome.
- The JBL sound system sounded good but not great. The specs say it has 9 speakers and I assumed that the odd number meant there would be a subwoofer, but I couldn’t see or hear one. I did find the JBL amplifier module under the passenger seat. The radio automatically displays the station name and song information for stations that transmit this data. I was happy to see a cassette player, which allowed me to plug in my MP3 jukebox.
- I wish I could get a sunroof. The creases in the roof profile make me think that an aftermarket sunroof would not be possible.
- I liked that I was still able to roll the windows up after turning off the power.
- Typical DIY maintenance (fluids, filters, plugs, brakes) looks feasible. Obviously, any trouble related to the hybrid system will require a trip to the Toyota dealer. For someone who hasn’t let anyone except the tire shop touch his car in the last 10 years this thought is a little daunting to say the least!
- I’m a hatchback fan! Despite some negatives that I mentioned above I was very impressed overall with this car, and the Prius is now on my shortlist along with the Mazda6.
Comments
Ed
New 2004 Prius with Option package #9 (loaded), is currently at $29,610 and the reserve has not been met. Buy-it-Now is set at $36,450
WOW that is almost $10,000 over MSRP.
The Prius demand still seems to be very high!
However, once news got out, they ran out of stock very quickly. Not known when or if Toyota will get more.
I received a letter from Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. telling me that the price went up by $300.00. The letter stated that their records show that I ordered my Prius before March 10th. To show their appreciation they will offer a payment of $300.00 only if I take delivery of a 2004 Prius with the increased MSRP. They will mail a check for the $300.00 approximately 6-8 weeks after I take delivery.
They gave me a phone number to call if I had any questions. 1-800-331-4331. You might want to give them a call.
It is still pretty interesting that the one car I mentioned and others are being bid at higher than MSRP.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1- &item=2481300433&category=43925
--I'd hate to see you part with your money, wwest, but here's a quote from the Lexus website...
"Conventional wisdom says that high driving performance and superior fuel efficiency cannot be achieved in the same vehicle. We have proved this wisdom wrong with the new RX400h fitted with Lexus hybrid technology, and taken SUV driving to a new and different dimension."
O. Sadakata, RX400h Chief Engineer
Only so much energy can be recovered with regenerative braking, probably not much more per vehicle pound than the Prius. All other energy MUST come from the ICE and the high energy loss in using the ICE to recharge the batteries will always result in a net loss vs an ICE adequate to the job alone.
--Uhm, so what's the energy efficiency of your ICE when it's stuck in traffic or idling at a red light as compared to a hybrid with its engine shut off? What's the energy efficiency of your ICE when it's cruising down the highway as compared to a much smaller engined hybrid cruising at the same speed? A hybrid does not live on regenerative braking alone!
Due to the PLANETARY-CVT, the ICE is able to run at a more efficient RPM than possible in a traditional vehicle. The effect of that is a much lower overall loss from recharging. The net result is a gain, allowing you to squeak out higher efficiency than an engine alone could achieve.
JOHN
I was told I could order an RX400h back in 03 and take delivery in the spring, April, was "proposed". Then it was moved into summer, then fall, now early 05.
In truth I lost complete interest when Lexus started touting V8 performance. I didn't buy the 03 Prius for HP performance, V6 power out of the small I4. I was/am perfectly satisfied with reasonable I4 performance and EXCELLENT fuel economy.
I have an 01 AWD RX330 and have no complaints about HP performance.
I have owned two Jeep Cherokee Limiteds, the first, an 85, with a Chevy V6, and the second, a 92, with the I6, and both of these weighted substantially more than an AWD RX, and even the 92, still being productive on a cattle and wheat ranch in north central MT, only had 190HP.
More than enough HP IMMHO.
If someone needs more HP than an RX200h would offer, let them buy elsewhere.
Are you intentionally trying to confuse people, or just not a careful reader?
I said PLANETARY-CVT not regular type of CVT.
There is a very significant difference between the way the types work. It is impossible for a regular (cone & belt) CVT to interact with 3 devices the way the PLANETARY one does in Prius.
JOHN
Regenerative braking is one of the way hybrids improve their efficiency. Prius(2,890 lbs) has 50kw motor to recharge 200 volt battery. Escape Hybrid(3,627 lbs) has 70kw motor to recharge 300 volt battery. RX400h(4,000lbs?) will have 120kw motor to recharge 400 volt battery. If you do the math, RX400h will have more power to weight ratio, performance HSD. That does not necessary mean it can recover less from regenerative braking. It just means that when you brake hard, more energy can be recapture while brake pads does not kick in as fast as Prius.
"All other energy MUST come from the ICE and the high energy loss in using the ICE to recharge the batteries will always result in a net loss vs an ICE adequate to the job alone."
HSD gains efficiency from attacking inefficiencies from ICE and transmission. In traditional cars with automatic transmission, radiator has to cool the engine and the transmission using two separate . Atkinson cycle engine generates 15% less heat(waste gas) than an Otto cycle ICE. HSD planetary ECVT is permanently engaged with ball baring gears and generate very little heat due to non-existent friction. BUT, HSD has the Inverter that needs to be cool. Toyota use solid state semi-conducting Inverter which generate less heat. By looking at Prius' cooling system, I can tell you that HSD generates less heat because Prius' radiator cools the ICE+Motors, Inverter, and acts as A/C condenser. How much efficiency is lost due to Inverter vs. automatic transmission? I don't know the answer to it but I can find out and post at a later time.
Now, we are clear that HSD gains efficiency by reducing areas that generate heat and waste gas at the brake, engine, and transmission. Let's analyze the battery. Prius can recharge it's battery from min state of charge in about one minutes at ICE max hp. The power in the battery will be use only when it is most beneficial. Otherwise, why even have the battery and generate electricity on-the-fly? So, it does not matter how battery power is generated either from engine or by regen braking.
Dennis
>I have no way of knowing the price
>of a 2005 model. I can tell you that a
>2004 model with the package #9 will cost
>$22152 plus TT&L. As the production
>dates change, we will be notified of
>the price changes. Let me know how I
>may assist you.
>Julie
I AM GOING FOR IT!!!!!!!!!! Is this a grat price or what??
Maybe it will be MidCow Hybrid
What does 'squeak out .." mean ????
YMWBLTJ.
MidCow
My point is that ANY CVT can be used to maintain it's driving engine at peak efficiency, planetary type or no.
Impossible for a regular (cone & belt)....
Can't say, but a "regular" CVT only has to react with one device, the ICE, to accomplish the same purpose.
And just in case you missed it.
I really am on "your" side.
I simply do not believe the current Toyota Prius hybrid concept can, or even should, be scaled up to the RX while also increasing HP/torque.
What side is that? The very next sentence you provided completely contradicts that claim. I strongly believe HSD can and should be scaled up. That sounds like the total opposite to me.
What belief do you support (with detail, please)?
JOHN
The Atkinson cycle, for instance, is simply an earlier design version (subset)(1930's) of the miller cycle (late 40's) used in the Mazda Millenia S. Net result is a "longer" power stroke to allow more complete burning of the fuel/air mixture.
And by the way, during "hard" braking (approaching the need for ABS activation wherein the regenerative cycle might interact adversely with ABS) the regenerative cycle is completely off-line. The regenerative system is only used during light to moderate braking, during coastdown (throttle closed), to retard persistent cruise control overspeed, and to simulate engine lagging torque to the drive wheels. The latter method is only used if the batteries are in serious need of recharging.
I do not believe that this concept should be "prostituted" by sacrificing fuel economy to satisfy a few wannabe MACHO types that think HP/Torque, the V8 engine, is the end all and be all.
And as an engineer I am of the firm belief that the Prius hybrid concept cannot be scaled to the RX platform while providing V8 HP/torque performance and sensible fuel economy.
Additionally my gut tells me that compromising the design to achieve V8 performance in the RX rather than settling for the current level of V6 performance and the resulting absolutely STELLAR fuel economy is just plain a sin against humanity.
*** To be entirely fair, I bought the 03 Prius partially to experiment with the possibility of improving its hwy MPG by disabling the ICE only battery recharge cycle during "cruise".
Yes, Mazda did it with a supercharger to complement weak low-end torque. It can be done but will it make sense? No, it failed due to a set of inefficiencies and extra cost that supercharger brought. In a HSD, high torque electric motor(supercharger) is a given in hybrid equation.
" during "hard" braking (approaching the need for ABS activation wherein the regenerative cycle might interact adversely with ABS) the regenerative cycle is completely off-line."
You make a good point. There will be limit on how fast regenerative cycle can recapture depending on the road conditions. On snow or ice, regen braking peak electricity will be limited but can capture most of the energy over a longer period of time.
" do not believe that this concept should be "prostituted" by sacrificing fuel economy to satisfy a few wannabe MACHO types that think HP/Torque, the V8 engine, is the end all and be all."
Then, you will end up on the same boat as midnight cowboy. He feels that people shouldn't drive a car as "slow" as Prius. Toyota shouldn't even design a car like Prius. He wants a performance HSD. You are in the opposite end as midnight cowboy where you prefer efficiency/fuel economy. It is wrong to decide for others. Choice is always good.
The way I see this situation is that RX400h or any other bigger HSD cars give up fuel economy for size. BUT the efficiency of HSD system will not change much. The drivetrain will get bigger and powerful but efficiency benefit in contrast to similar traditional car would stay the same since HSD is highly salable. In short, no matter how you tune HSD, for performance or fuel economy, HSD efficiency is always about twice greater than ICE only cars. The more HSD is available in all type of car, the better. It might pollute a little more to produce HSD cars but over a long run(1-2years), overall pollution will be less than traditional cars.
Dennis
Analyze and stop being so anal, especially on John! You'll need to know this equation:
MG1 = 3.6 * ICE - 2.6 * MG2
From that equation, you can make a nomograph. What is a nomograph?
By definition, it is a chart that allows you to easily solve equations involving three variables by drawing straight lines. In the case of the Prius transmission nomograph, the three variables are the rotational speeds (the RPMs) of MG1 (the generator), the Engine, and MG2 (the motor).
Note: Above graph represents MG1 6,500RPM limit of the classic Prius. 2004 Prius can spin from -10,000RPM to 10,000RPM. ICE max RPM is also raised to 5,000RPM.
Here is how to read the graph. The green line basically shows Prius travelling at 22mph purely on electricity since engine RPM is zero. The blue and red lines shows Prius travelling at different speeds with the same ICE 1,700 RPM. In any given instant, Prius CPU can calculate the most efficient RPM for a given speed or situation. Prius CPU can also adapt to the highest performance line on the graph. The setup is extremely flexible.
Dennis
The 1985 Jeep Cherokee did not come in Limited form (which was introduced for the 1987 model year). The Laredo was the top of the line in the Cherokee for 1985.
The Cherokee did not "weighted substantially more than the AWD RX".
The 4 dr. 4WD Cherokee had a curb wieight of 3,100 lbs. The '01 RX300 AWD has a curb weight of 4,950. Thats nearly 2k pounds!
I seem to remember something approaching 2.5 tons for the 92 Jeep.
Are you really sure you don't have those weights reversed? I'm quite sure my 01 AWD RX is ~2 tons or less.
The 04 AWD RX330 is at 4065lbs, doesn't have the extra weight of the VC.
According to intellichoice and cars.com the weight for a 1985-1989 4WD Cherokee was 3,100 lbs.
I'll call my wife's sister in MT tomorrow and see if the owners manual has that info.
Will the air conditioning always be on (assuming of course that the A/C Auto is activated and the windows are left up) when cabin cooling is required? Say for example that the car has been sitting in the sun with an outside temp of 70 and a cabin temp of 80. If you have the climate control set at 75, will the car just vent in the cooler outside air? Or will the A/C automatically fire up? I assume the later, but just wondering.
To be fair the owners manual does say to drive with the rear windows lowered for a few miles to flush the heated air and to help to more quickly cool the super-heated interior materials.
Personally in those conditions I always try to remember to immediately over-ride the recirculate mode and put it intop fresh.
Or maybe you'll love it so much you'll keep it. ;-)
P.S. Be sure this isn't a case of a typo first. It sounds to good to believe. Meaning it probably is.
There are 2 purposes of A/C, not just 1 as you believe.
The first is to cool the air.
The second is to remove the humidity from it.
For some of us, since we live in humid areas, the second is actually more important. So recirculating is more effective. And realistically, most people are well aware of the fact that opening the windows for a moment will provide cooling much faster than even having the air-vents on full-blast.
JOHN
Your point is very well taken, but I wasn't proposing not using the A/C, just using it more efficiency.
If the vehicle has been setting in the hot sun all day the interior atmosphere is very likely quite a bit above ambient, and the interior materials are certainly quite warm, heated, as a result.
Now, which would be more efficient, using fresh mode to cool the incoming outside air down from 75F(??), all the while forcing the hot, 100F(??) interior air out at the rear exhauster port(s).
Or, like the flawed factory design, go immediately to recirculate, trapping the interior atmosphere with a temperature elevated to 100F and using the A/C to cool it down to your comfort level.
Now as too humidity, 100% RH, while clearly extreme, with temperatures below 65F, are not generally discomforting to the human body at rest. So the use of A/C when the OAT is below 65F is clearly needless for most of the earth's human population.
A/C and Demist/defog:
A/C can clearly be useful for dehumidification purposes during the colder months to help prevent windshield and window fogging. But here again the Prius (Toyota/Lexus/NipponDenso/Denso USA) climate control design is flawed.
Your Prius relies exclusively on the A/C to defog/demist the windshield/windows should that event occur. By design, your A/C is completely non-functional below about 35F. So the only method available to you at these temperatures, should windshield fogging occur, is to manually intervene with the system and turn the heat up to a HIGH level, QUICKLY.
Additionally, when the outside air is below ~47F, the RH humidity is typcially so low that an A/C evaporator operating, by design, at 33F or above, cannot cool the incoming airflow close enough to dewpoint to efficiently lower its RH.
I agree is sounds like the AC could more effectively manage the cooling and your solution makes a lot of sense. I also thought, contrary to John's statement that ALL ACs dehumidified as well as cooling. In fact, many cars automatically use the AC to dehumidfy and defog the windows in the winter in the defrost mode .
The only ACs I know of that only cooled and didn't dehumidify were the ones we used when I was growing up: the 4/55s
YMMV,
MidCow
For that matter, how you could even prove I was even referring to a car?
Remember, vague works both ways. I can't get more specific than the original question provided. And in this case, "flaw" is implied overall even though it isn't. In the grand scheme of things, having recirculate a default and taking an initial hit will still result in a greater savings when used long enough. Of course, if you are smart enough to just air out the car in the first place, it is totally a non-issue.
JOHN
This forum is not the end-all, be-all source for accurate information. So someone says something that may be incorrect. We should all know that anything on the internet is 50% unreliable anyway and needs to be substantiated. I doubt any responsible person is going to take information in a forum where they know nothing of the contributors and use it as absolute truth.
I've enjoyed having John back. Do we need to make it so vitriolic that he leaves?
Everyone's view, information and comments are important in a forum situation. No one, however is infalable.
June, July, and August data will make those less-than-enthusiastic about the technology think twice. But in the meantime, we have to stall while that data is being collected.
This morning was my warmest ever morning commute with the 2004. At 77F degrees with a high humidity, the Prius was in heaven. The MPG rode delightly high the whole trip. Now after 332 miles, this tank is displayed as getting 56.6 MPG. That's just plain sweet, something the media has claimed impossible.
Over the past 3 years with a Prius... June is typically the worst summer month. July is better. August is the best.
This season sure is going to be fun.
JOHN
Of course there will be times, as I have already stated, that the A/C in your car cannot cool the airflow to a low enough temperature to reach its dewpoint.
But those times are totally unpredictable by any means readily available to the general public. So IMMHO there is no harm in saying A/C's ALWAYS dehumidify when cooling the airflow.
midcow...
Those were, are, evaporative coolers, technically not air conditioners as the term is most commonly used nowadays. These are actually airflow HUMIDIFIERS, and work most efficiently in hot and dry climates, or at least with low RH.
The old air conditioner I was referring to that didn't dehumidify was 4/55, rolling down al four windows on the highway at 55 miles per hour; most cars didn't have air conditioners back then.
YMMV,
MidCow
Thanks all around.
This weekend I decided to rent a Prius from my Toyota dealer. It was $49 per day (Dallas area) with 150 miles per day included. It was fully loaded (package #9). This was a fun experience that I would thoroughly recommend to anyone who is thinking of buying a Prius. The rental was handled through the dealer’s collision center so I didn’t have to go near a salesperson.
Here are some of my thoughts & observations, in no particular order:
- There is a lot of leg room, front and back. I did a short trip with five people and they were all very comfortable. The car just feels roomy. Headroom is good in the front, just OK in the back. A “standard” 6 foot person would probably be comfortable in the back but I have a long torso and my head was brushing the roof.
- I thought the acceleration was surprisingly brisk (even with 5 people). I never felt short of power.
- I was extremely impressed with the seamless way the computer manages the power. Most of the time I couldn’t even feel or hear the gas engine starting and stopping, and when I could feel it the jolt was less than that of a regular automatic car shifting.
- The brakes were a little difficult to modulate at times. Mostly this was when I was already braking softly and then realized I needed to brake harder – I found I tended brake much too hard. I imagine I would get used to this over time.
- The automatic climate control seemed to work very well.
- I found the touch screen very usable except when direct sunlight hits it – they could easily have put a deeper hood over it.
- It’s weird to have a calendar built into the car. This would be a lot more useful if I could beam appointments to it from my PDA.
- The service reminders will be useful - anyone know if they are retained if the battery is disconnected for servicing?
- Why on earth should I have to manually set the clock on a car that contains a GPS unit??? They should be integrated.
- I thought the seats were nice and firm, the fabric seems of good quality, but it has an upright seating position that will take some getting used to for me – it made my upper back hurt until I figured out that I needed to move the seat much further forward than in other cars. I would have liked a telescoping steering wheel.
- I thought the overall ride quality was pretty good, though a little “floaty” for my taste. The tires chirp easily on corners but it never felt like it was going to break loose. Body roll was also a bit more than I like, but not objectionable.
- Crosswinds affect this car more than most.
- I got 46mpg over 300 miles according to the computer. This was mixed city/highway, A/C on most of the time, and included some pretty aggressive driving. I found myself accelerating pretty briskly from stop lights, though I was careful to avoid hard braking as I know this hurts regeneration. I also found myself going way over the speed limit without realizing it – the high seating position and quiet interior makes it feel like I’m not going very fast.
- I’m not too keen on the hard plastic interior, though I could deal with it. I just wonder how easily it scratches.
- This car loves to beep! Seatbelts off, reversing, locking, unlocking, door ajar, you name it this car will find a reason to beep about it. There’s a big table in the owner’s manual explaining what all the different beeps mean! I understand the reverse beeping can be disabled.
- When not beeping, the car seemed very quiet.
- There’s plenty of storage space – I especially noticed the double glove box, massive center console bin, big hidden compartment under the hatchback floor, and bottle holders in the door side pockets.
- As with most hatchbacks the cargo capacity is good and very flexible. The front passenger seat reclines all the way for carrying long objects. This car is definitely way better then a typical sedan for Home Depot trips.
- I found the Nav system easy to use and it seemed to be very accurate and gave clear directions. It wouldn’t let me type in an address or perform many other setup functions while moving. This is obviously a safety-related design decision, but I’d like to be able to override this lock-out if I have a passenger who can do the programming.
- Most people I showed the Prius to asked about plugging it in to recharge the batteries!
- The Smart Key feature is awesome.
- The JBL sound system sounded good but not great. The specs say it has 9 speakers and I assumed that the odd number meant there would be a subwoofer, but I couldn’t see or hear one. I did find the JBL amplifier module under the passenger seat. The radio automatically displays the station name and song information for stations that transmit this data. I was happy to see a cassette player, which allowed me to plug in my MP3 jukebox.
- I wish I could get a sunroof. The creases in the roof profile make me think that an aftermarket sunroof would not be possible.
- I liked that I was still able to roll the windows up after turning off the power.
- Typical DIY maintenance (fluids, filters, plugs, brakes) looks feasible. Obviously, any trouble related to the hybrid system will require a trip to the Toyota dealer. For someone who hasn’t let anyone except the tire shop touch his car in the last 10 years this thought is a little daunting to say the least!
- I’m a hatchback fan! Despite some negatives that I mentioned above I was very impressed overall with this car, and the Prius is now on my shortlist along with the Mazda6.
60 MPG easy, with wife, full of kids and bags and doing 70-75mph here in MI!!!
90% fewer emissions than other 2004's not to mention older cars (and tanks)!!
Detroit get real, Hybrids like this will eat your lunch big time.
2004s Sold out in the first few months, even after uping\changing production at Toyota twice.
PS: SUV (Tank) owners, Gas prices are never going to come down just upupupupuppupupupup......