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Comments
Gotta write 'em to get 'em.
Steve, Host
The middle and rear seating felt odd, too. The angle of the seats felt like I was ready for "take off" and were uncomfortable.
The stow 'n go is a great feature, but not at the expense of quality and comfort.
Can you elaborate?
I looked at a few 2005's while I had my oil changed and I didn't see anything like that
Two of the DC SXT's had poorly installed carpet in the rear where the seats fold down - around the edge where it meets the side wall, the carpet was rumpled (don't know how to explain it - the carpet wasn't flat). On one DC SXT, there was a broken piece of plastic that belonged "somewhere" other than the middle of the floor. On yet another SXT, there was a black plastic part (with a part number on it) about four inces square with four tabs on it laying on the floor.
I'm on my third van from Chrysler/Dodge and I enjoyed them all and had no problems. The only reason I looked into the new vans was because of the new stow 'n go. I was expecting better quality.
mrblonde49 suggests the problems with loose pieces of plastic and ill-fitting carpet could be a dealer prep issue.
I would add that over-aggressive customers could have loosened or pulled apart components. One good reason to buy a new vehicle very quickly after it arrives at the dealership before damage can be done by inconsiderate car shoppers.
I'm not sure which models have the Stow n Go available, but I think it's standard on the SXT, and there's a $1,000 rebate on it.
Steve, Host
The Caravan SE, Caravan SXT, and Grand Caravan SE do NOT have "Stow-N-Go" even as an option.
The GC SXT has the 3.8L V6 standard. The GC SE PLUS, the GC SE, and Caravan SXT have the 3.3L V6 standard while the Caravan SE has the 2.4 L 4 cylinder engine. There are NO optional engines on any Caravan or Grand Caravan model.
All long wheel base Town & Country have "Stow-N-Go" standard. The LX has a 3.3L V6 standard, the Touring and Limited models have 3.8L V6 engines standard. There are NO optional engines on any Chrysler Town & Country.
There is NO Chrysler clone of the Grand Caravan SE that does NOT have "Stow-N-Go".
The Chrysler Town & Country LX is the clone of the Grand Caravan SE PLUS and each has "Stow-N-Go" with the 3.3L V6 as the only engine.
The Chrysler Touring is a more expensive clone of the Grand Caravan SXT. ($27,070 vs $26,315 MSRP). I can not find any content difference between these 2 models. The T&C Touring and GC SXT offer MORE value than the GC SE PLUS or T&C LX if a person wants "Stow-N-Go".
One could add options to the Grand Caravan SXT to bring it up to the same level as the Town & Country Limited both in content and in price.
I personally prefer the policy of Honda and Toyota having the same engine size and transmission in EVERY Odyssey or Sienna.
Hmmm, interesting, we have both a 1998 GC Sport with a 3.8 as well as a 2003 (not even 12 months old yet) GC ES, and while I can say that in general I like the 2003 better, there are plenty of things on the 1998 that I prefer.
Things such as the door locks; I like to drive with my elbow up on the window sill, and the 1998 has recessed door locks that are below the surface of the sill even when unlocked, while the 2003 has a little pop up button that is positioned to dig into the meat of my forearm even when locked. Grrr, by itself hot a big thing, however, very annoying. What are the door locks like on the 2005?
I also prefer the feel of the engine, the older van seems to be much more responsive off of the line compared to the new one (in spite of the extra horse power of the new one). That said; the new one seems to be a bit quicker accelerating up to freeway speeds.
When you said, "...no door arm rests to come off." What did that mean? Were the door arm rests different between the 1997 and the 1998? We've got over 80K on the old one and haven't had an arm rest come off or fail in any other fashion.
Keep us posted with your adjusting to your new toy. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
The 97 T&C LX owned by ysolde probably had the 3.3L V6 while the 2005 T&C Limited will have the more powerful 3.8L V6. Additionally, the LX is the entry level T&C while the Limited is top of the line (as was your 03 GC ES in 2003).
Each of you is a good example of another satisfied repeat buyer of a DC minivan.
------------------Model--------------- Weight - Horse Power --- Torque --
2005 Grand Caravan SXT ------ 4,252 -- 215@5,000 -- 245@4,000
2003 Grand Caravan ES ------- 4,238 -- 215@5,000 -- 245@4,000
1998 Grand Caravan Sport ---- 3,949 -- 180@4,400 -- 240@3,250
The only potential problem with the weight of the 1998 is that we have one of the rare 3.8 liter Sport models, which probably weighs a few pounds more than the 3,949 listed for the base 3.3 engine. I say rare 3.8 because when we went into the dealership to buy the 1998, they didn’t have any vans that met our requirements and the only way to order a “Sport” model was to pay $200 over and above extra cost for the 29N package which (oh darn!) was having the 3.3 (which was in short supply at the time) upgraded to the 3.8. Anyway, I digress, my guess as to why the 1998 feels so much more responsive than the 2003 is a combination of the weight (a tank of gas and some groceries) and more torque available at a lower RPM than the newer engine. That said, once those squirrels get wound up, the new mill does seem to pull stronger. Thirty five HP more? Maybe, maybe not.
Best Regards,
Shipo
And it's been 100% flawless in the 3500 miles since
05's I didn't like either the buckets or the third row, granted I will rarely, if ever, sit there, so maybe my kids could have lived with it, but I didn't like them, There was a variety of problems with some of the stock of the 05's as some were perfect, some the 2nd row seats wouldn't fold into the floor, (they just jammed against the back of the front seats) and yes, there were a couple where the flimsy trim on the 2nd row buckets had come off completely from the seat frame, or just the front part. My take is that customers are checking these seats out, and maybe not taking as much care as a new owner would. So broken pieces are a reality. but anything broke when bought will be fixed. (so the new owner could break it themselves :-) I really like the idea of a fold flat third row, but I wouldn't take the 2nd row to get the third. You really do have to have the first row seats pretty far forward to move them, so as tall and my wife and I are, moving them would be part of the routine to stash the seats.
04's, the seats are more comfortable, the 2nd row reclines, there is the foot room someone mentioned earlier. The split rearmost bench is reasonable, when folded closed and then folded forward (w/o the headreast) one drawback was that the Annivesary Edition didn't come with heated leather,
We ended up buying the 04 sxt anniversary edition (the leather, and video were the big swing votes)
Enjoy your van!
I had heard about people talking about the poor seats before I went to see them at the car show and at first was ready to agree with them. But, fixing the headrests makes a world of difference.
1. Gas mileage is rather low. Around town, we are only getting 13-14. We finally took our first long trip (about 1,000 miles round trip), and noticed we averaged about 22-23. I have contacted our dealer about this and wondered when we would be seeing better gas mileage. He said since this is a cast iron engine, it will take to about 10,000 miles to see improved gas mileage.
2. The front passenger seats are extremely uncomfortable. On this long trip I constantly had to keep "re-arranging" myself to get comfortable again. Granted I'm a bit larger than average (6'2 about 220), but still this was pretty bad. The leather seats really need/should be a bit more "cushy" especially since this is a $33,000 + vehicle.
3. The compartments in the track are quite cheap. If you pull one out, it is easy to break, so use caution.
4. The GPS navigation system is pretty cool, and a nice "time-passer" when you are bored staring at the road. However, there are some major limitations to it when trying to find something. First, it doesn't list rest area's. Not sure if this is important to anyone else, but it would sure be nice to know when the next rest area is so we can have the three kids plan accordingly. Also, none of the POI, we chose would show up, such as fast food restaurants, and gas stations. One thing that was nice, is is gave an estimate time of arrival to our destination. Not sure how it computes it, but it was off by about 10 minutes. You will notice (if you use it) the voice that tells you when to turn is kind of cool at first, but very annoying after awhile, so we just turned it off.
5. We did not get the option for the screens for the 6 disk DVD changer. To us, that option is simply ridiculously over priced. It's a $1200 option for 1 7 " screen, 2 wireless head phones and 1 remote control. I didn't really price out any other vans with this option, so not sure if this is a standard price.
6. Passing on a two lane, 55 MPH highway takes a lot out of the engine. He really has to work hard to get from 50 to 70 MPH in a few seconds.
7. The cruise control is not very sensitive. If you set it at 72, and want to either coast or accelerate, it sometimes takes 5-6 times to get it right where you want it. Usually hitting the coast of accell button will change your speed by about 5 MPH. Also, when going down a slight hill, the speed will go up about 5-6 MPH, which could be just enough to get caught in a Wisconsin speed trap, so use caution there. I realize some of this has to do with the weight, but we just had an 02 Durango, and never had any of these speed control issues.
Overall though, we are fairly pleased with the van. It has a lot of room, and the stow and go seats are very, nice.
Hope this helps any potential buyers.
Also, we did not compare any other vehicles before choosing the Chrysler due to some personal family concerns that I really don't need to disclose here...
The stow and go seats are actually fairly comfortable, however I have not spent much time in them. I heard no complaints from my 10 and 12 year old which were sitting in the 3rd row together. They had plenty of space, and seemed to be quite comfortable.
BTW, we really do like our van, even though what I posted may have seemed a bit negative. I was simply pointing out the flaws we have noticed thus far.
Cruise control is always just approx. the speed you set it. If you are afraid to get cought for speeding, set it for 5 MPH lower than you want.
I sat in a NEW 2005 GC SXT with cloth and a T&C Touring with leather. ALL the seats were comfortable for me.
I did notice the "Stow-N-Go" seats are more firm than the seats in my son's 2002 GC Sport. Since I prefer a more firm seat, the 2005 seating is more comfortable.
As for the rest of the stats, I drove (my wife flew due to work pressures) 1,727 miles in 31 hours flat, averaging 55.7 mph for the entire trip. That said, at least 3 hours was spent either tooling around the Niagara and Detroit areas or else in heavy construction/accident/border crossing related traffic. While in New Hampshire and Massachusetts, I kept the CC set at about 75 mph, and while in Canada (speed limit 62, however, traffic was moving at speeds of well over 80) and Michigan (speed limit 70, however, traffic was moving at nearly 90) I kept the CC set somewhere north of 80.
For all of that, I managed 22.3 mpg, which in my book ain't too shabby. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
My Taurus blips up 1 mph per punch of the button. This finer increment makes it a bit easier to get to where you want, but neither the van or the car overspeeds much on downhill grades, that I have noticed. Maybe the downhill grades are very steep in your area, which could account for overspeed that I normally do not encounter.
The above is not based on any observations on my part, as I have not tried stow and go seats even for a short term, but I will consider them in a few years when we decide to replace our '96.
Any comments from people who have sat in the stow and go seats, either second or third row, for an extended ride?
I sat in the third row, (yes I adjusted the head rest) and didn't like it, I was immediately unimpressed with the 2nd row because it doesn't recline, (so for long trips, that's a immediate comfort disqualification for me.) Whether the firmer foam would eventually suit me is not relevant,it is incompatible with my carseat requirements. I would have look at the stow and go much closer had it reclined. (2nd row)
Kind Regards
Additionally, the value of a '05 T&C LTD with all the options (stow and go, 6 disc, DVD, Nav, moonroof, bluetooth, etc) is far superior to the competition. Paid $32500 (including rebate) for our '05 vs. the high 30s for an '04 xle ltd ( provided you can even find one with a 6 disc DVD AND nav at that price).
Thanks
I am very picky and I found the stow n go seats to be very comfortable, firm, and supportive. My only complaint is the low backs (necessary to fit as stow and go I'm sure). I did have to raise the headrest quite a bit to achieve comfort. Some people won't care about that since they don't rest their head in the headrest while traveling in the car (I do).
I consider it an advantage, however, that the way the headrests fit low to the seat allows the seats to be stowed without removing the headrests. We also looked at a Honda and the 3rd row that stows requires the headrests to be removed and stored.
I have only driven it a couple of times (I drive the Stratus normally). However, here are my initial impressions after 1 week:
1. The seats are very comfortable once you get the headrests where you want them.
2. Although I feel like I am driving a small country when I am driving it sitting up so high, it handles very well. It really does have a car-like feel and good turning radius.
3. I like the bigger engine in the SXT, it has excellent low end torque and nice pickup, even though we are somewhat babying it until it reaches 1000 miles (at the end of this week, with the miles my husband drives).
4. Although I have heard horror stories about the transmissions in the older models, this one is extremely smooth...much smoother than the transmission in the Stratus. The Stratus is my first car with an automatic transmission and it feels very harsh to me since I am used to a manual transmission. The Van, however, has very smooth gear transitions and doesn't make the jolting when shifting the way my husband's old Stratus and the new one both do.
5. Even a dummy like me can operate the stow n go seats quickly and efficiently. You just have to remember to have the front seats all the way forward when stowing the second row (we only did this to try it out since we have a baby seat installed in row 2). Third row is even easier to stow and unstow.
6. LOVE the electric sliding doors and liftgate. Let me say it again, LOVE THEM. We were going to do without when we were looking at the SE plus, but I am very glad we got them. It is so much easier when carrying the baby to just flick the button on the remote rather than having to pull the handle and slide the door open. And the doors retract with only 2 pounds of pressure so we aren't worried about any little hands getting stuck in the door.
7. Some of the instructions in the manual that tell you how to operate the features aren't completely accurate. We tried to follow the instructions to program our garage door opener, and we had no luck. We had to bring the Stratus back to have a mark on the seat removed (they had no luck so we are stuck with a flawed seat unless I force them to replace it, we haven't decided if we want to play hardball yet) and while there the dealer advised the instructions are wrong. All we have to do is hold the button we want to program and press our garage door opener remote pointed at the display to copy the programming.
8. The stereo is nice even though it is factory standard. My 2001 Accord had a sucky stereo with no punch, although I do miss my 6 CD in dash changer. This stereo has some good punch. I have to keep the bass very low or it would blow my head off, especially when listening to radio which has a lot of bass anyway.
9. What I don't like about the stow n go seats...very low backs, you have to adjust the headrest pretty high to be comfortable. Also, 3rd row passengers have no place for their feet because the bottom of the second row seats go right to the floor. There is no room under them for your toes. This is also a problem behind the driver seat in the second row. The only seat with a recess under it is the front passenger. To achieve enough footroom, the seats have to be far way from each other. We'll see how this works out on our trip to the beach in October with my in-laws. 4 adults and a baby seat.
10. The wacky wiper design appears to be better because it seems to achieve more wiping space. It looked very weird when I saw it but it functions well.
11. I like the annoying seat belt reminder bell. I am someone who fastens my belt immediately when sitting in the seat. My husband, however, is one of those people who could drive for miles and never realize he wasn't wearing his belt. Luckily, this has a bell that continues to sound when the driver is not wearing a seat belt. Hopefully this will cause him to wear his belt regularly when I am not around to remind him. I'll call it the nagging wife bell.
12. When I saw that it had rear parking assist, I thought this was completely unnecessary...until I had to park it. You can't see the back of the vehicle and when you first start driving it you have no perception of the limits of the vehicle. Backing into our driveway (it goes down a hill so it's better to back in and drive straight out) is quite a challenge for me anyway. With this huge vehicle, I would have been sunk without the big side mirror (rock walls on both sides) and the rear parking assist to let me know when I am approaching the garage door. I can use the LED lights to park the same place every time. 2 dots gets me close enough but still leaves room for the liftgate to raise without hitting the door. I do however wish it was a little shorter so we could park it in the garage. The roof rack puts it just a hair too tall to fit under the garage door opener mechanism.
Overall I like the vehicle and wish I could drive it without having to park the huge thing. I want it to drive and ride like the van but park like the Stratus. And God help me if I ever had to PARALLEL park it!
Odie
We bought it three weeks ago and I didnt notice how LOUD the exhaust is on it? (Im always inside) It sounds like a big truck (kinda with a puttering). I told my husband (who really doesnt know much about cars) and he said he thought it was okay. But to me there is just too much noise coming from it.
What does your exhaust/muffler sound like on yours???
Im thinking about taking it back to the dealer to see if something is wrong, but dont want to look like a stupid girl!! It just seems too loud for a brand new car.
Thanks in advance.
I have a 2005 T&C on order from the factory and have already received and reviewed the Factory Service Manual and I note there are listed 5 possible reasons for "Exhaust Noise". If you really want to impress them that you ain't no "stupid girl" tell them to look in their service manual in Chapter 11 (Exhaust System) Page 2, particularly if they try to give you a hard time. This Service Manual also covers Caravan and Grand Caravan.
C.B.
Problem one has never been solved [three trips to the dealer] and problem 2 was solved after I insisted that the dealer implement a TSB [that I had to pay $20 to obtain!].
Odie
I left the bill of sale in the glove box - so I will have to write later about the purchase price - but it was basically the (quote end quote) dealer invoice less $2300 in discounts. I had no trade in. I went to two dealerships and exchanged emails with two others . My sense was you can get a good deal on the 2005 if you are willing to shop around - so don't settle if you feel the dealer isn't being aggressive enough. In the very least, don't buy on your first visit. Wait a few days then go back and say you have been shopping and wonder if they are willing to do better than the last offer they gave you.
My previous car was a 1999 Volvo XC wagon - which was great, but not as spacious as I would have preferred. With two young kids, it's amazing how quickly you can fill the cargo area (forget bikes!).
The SXT's stow and go seats give you enough room for a ton of stuff - even if you are only folding the back seats. With the split third seat - you still seat five and have extra room beyond a wagon or SUV. This car cost about $13K less than the Volvo - nice.
I have much experience driving minivans, since I rent one for out of town work and every time we go on vacation. I have rented Caravans, Windstars and Ventures and have liked them all. The Dodge's were always nice to drive and I prefer their contour seats (I am 5'9" and slender). I'm not sure if the seats would work as well for larger people.
I have always liked minivans better than SUVs on a number of levels: Driving experience, comfort, safety, cargo space, passenger seating, gas mileage and of course, all of the politically correct reasons too. I understand that some people have image issues about owning a minivan. My advice - get over it. SUVs handle like trucks and you pay thousands of dollars more than they cost to make. Minivans drive like sedans and they are very reasonably priced.
I will confess that I recently rented a Pacifica (it was the only family car left at the rental yard) and I was pleasantly surprised by how nicely that handled. It seemed more like a minivan than a truck.
Okay - back to the point: the SXT drives really smoothly, handles like a sedan and (mine, at least) is quiet. Like an SUV - you sit high, so your view of the road is really good. I like the visibility from the driver's seat on the highway. The mirrors give you a wide view and you also can see cars behind you in the right lane by turning your head and looking through the rear passenger windows (not always true in SUVs). Seeing behind you while backing up is not great, but these days, half the sedans have such high rear ends - you can't see behind in them either.
The engine has ample power for acceleration, though one gear is a little more sluggish in the low end than the others (can't remember if it was 2nd or 3rd). Still - getting on the highway is easily accomplished by stepping down hard on the gas pedal. This is a decent sized van, so I can only imagine what a bummer it would be if I had the smaller 6 cylinder.
The rear seats are definitely better suited for kids than adults - something they had to forfeit to accomplish the stow and go.
For us, it's not an issue as we don't take long road trips with lots of adults - but it is something that should be considered by anyone that is getting this vehicle for corporate use. Short trips are no problem for adults in the back - just raise the head rests as high as needed. The seats recline nicely. My kids have slept in them for the past two Sunday night drives back to the city after a weekend away.
The stow and go feature is great. It basically gives you a passenger van and a cargo van in one vehicle. I won't miss pulling heavy seats out of a van ever again and the added room in the way back, even with the seats all up is an added bonus.
The standard sound system is pretty good. I use my ipod with an itrip (so it broadcasts through an FM station on the radio) and lean it in the space between the cup holders in the dashboard. It hasn't been jostled out of there yet - so I don't have a need for the CD player.
We thought about DVD - but you can get a really nice after market version installed by Best Buy for about $500 less than the factory one - so I decided to hold off for now.
I like the styling of this van better than any other - especially the American choices - but that is a matter of taste. The roof rack is easy to use and easy to get to by standing on the door steps.
I haven't figured out the gas mileage yet - but I will report that in a future letter.
To sum up (after two weeks experience) - if you are considering the GC - I really like my SXT.