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Audi S4 vs BMW M3
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First post in this forum. I have an AWD XC90 (family car) and a zippy FWD SAAB 9-3 Vector, which you may scoff at, but which truly has been a fantastic car...but...I'm really interested in purchasing (rather than leasing) a used M3. Love the 02+ styling and performance. However, living in CO, I wonder about it in the snow. I want the car as a daily driver, but I'm used to front- or AWD. With the performance tires, even my FWD SAAB couldn't budge in low snow (Denver really doesn't get much snow - it's just a couple weeks a winter where it's an issue unless you're in the mtns) but when I slapped all seasons on it, the SAAB was excellent. So, the question is this - can I put winters on an M3? Will it go at all? Or will I need my wife to zip me downtown in the Volvo when it snows?
Any feedback is appreciated.
thanks.
But everyday driving is where it counts. The S4 is a far better everyday driver as the M3 can be quite a harsh ride. Both cars are extremely nice and it's not a bad choice to get either one. Audi's 4.2 V8 is one glorious engine, and the interior fitted with Recaros feels incredible.
Take these cars on the back roads when it's pouring down raining or bad weather, and I'll take the S4 all day long.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Thanks for the response. I do love the car...funny - after I entered my post we had a surprise early October snow. But again, most days the roads are dry and I thought with dedicated tires it might be okay.
The BMW market here IS thin. Audis are much more prevalent...maybe becuase of quattro.
Anyway,Ii was aware that a used M3 could have some hard miles on it. I've seen a huge range of prices on some sites (private sellers). Why is the 05 being discounted? Is it because of the upcoming styling change?
Thanks!
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
The M3 might have a sportier feel and look better than some of other Bimmers. But the current 5 and 7 series cars leave you with a somewhat cold and cheap look for a high-end car. And a majority of the automotive publications you'll read out there as well have commented on BMW's "lackluster" interiors.
Afraid of taking your car out in bad weather? If you spend 50-60k on a high performance car, you shouldn't need a second car unless you can afford it. A lot of people only want or need to have (1) car. The S4 is an all-weather machine. Nearly 1/4 of the country lives in conditions that have some type of snow, slush, or harsh weather. So it's a reallity that all wheel drive is a big plus for a lot of people if they have only 1 car.
The M3 is a very fine car in it's own right, and the debate will rage on about M3 vs S4. Both cars have their own pluses and minuses, and it's not a bad choice to get either one.
But anybody who says the fit, finish, and overall appearance of BMW's...especially the 5 and 7 series is crazy. Virtually every automotive magazine has questioned the once clean and classy Bimmers of the late 80's and most of the 90's, only to get "Bangelized" the last 1/2 decade.
I've been subscribing to Car and Driver for close to 20 years, and the reviews for BMW products the last 1/2 decade has been average at best. One of the last comments from a writer was that he was glad the BMW 5 series was fun to drive and it got him to his destination quicky, but he was thankfull he didn't have to spend too much time in the cars dreary interior. Nobody really praises BMW for their interiors.
And please, lets not even go into IDrive, as it's one of the poorest designs of any auto manufacturer. SMG vs, DSG? Don't go there, either.
Audi has never been the darling of reliablity, so I won't go there. But the A4's have always been one of Audi's most reliable cars, and they are on consumer reports best pick list for 2005. Audi as a whole has made leaps and bounds in terms of quality and reliablity over the last decade, but it seems that BMW and Mercedes are going in the opposite direction.
The 3 series cars fare much better like the A4's, but don't even talk about reliablity and overall quality for the 5 and 7 series via "consumer reports". The same with Mercedes for their C class, E class, and S class. They are average at best and bordeline horrible at times.
BMW ruled the 80's & 90's, but Audi has the best looking and stongest lineup they've ever had. And arguably a better line-up than either BMW or Mercedes right now. From the A3, A4, A6, A8, there ain't a weak chain in the link anymore. The brutal 414hp RS4 is on the way, and the V10 S6 and S8's are coming next year.
It's good to be Audi right now.
I did some thorough due diligence as well, and though all these cars are excellent, the Audi S4 seemed to take the cake; read the following:
http://motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0308_sport/
Check out this auto enthusiast's comprehensive assessment of both cars. Pay particular attention to the "last words" copied below:
http://www.epinions.com/content_139324919428
"Last Words
This was a shocking test drive, to put it mildly. I expected a more user-friendly drivetrain, and I especially expected livelier handling. As it stands, not only is the Audi S4 a more practical car with a more stylish, more comfortable interior, but it is also more fun to drive. Among $50,000 high-performance luxury cars, the Audi is the easy choice.
The next M3 will likely have a V8 with 400 or so horsepower. But power is the least of the car’s problems. The car’s steering and handling require much more urgent attention. The M3 might not be breaking a sweat in most driving on public roads, but it should at least pretend to be enjoying the trip. As it is, it feels musclebound, strong but inflexible."
Also, consult consumer reports. The S4 and the M3 are both recommended vehicles.
The current sales figures seem to indicate the buying public as opposed to the critical journalists like the car. So while one can point to the magazine articles to support a position the cars are cheap, their crap, they don't drive well, BMWs are indeed doing better, ATM, than the competition.
As the above posted suggested, I don't even want to go out in the snow, salt, with my 10 year old Hyundia, much less my $60K M3 or S4. The M3 does better on dry pavement, no doubt about it, but people who drive M3s also have backup cars in their garage. The next generation M3 should make things more interesting for BMW.
It's interesting to note what Audi had to do with the S4 in terms of the engine to get equitable performance to a 3.2L M3 engine.
Truth is, both cars are great, but for 2005, Audi S4 has taken the M3 down and I can't find a industry publication that says otherwise. Here's yet another article from R&T...
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=913&page_number=1
"The S4 is an excellent overall package, but it isn't as sporty or exciting to drive as the BMW M3 or Cadillac CTS-V. Its V8 is wonderfully smooth, delivered reasonable fuel economy, and makes the S4 very quick. The car has sound, capable handling enhanced by all-wheel drive. Like most cars in this class, the ride is stiff, but the S4 is not as punishing as some sports cars. The interior is beautifully crafted, and the trunk is the largest of the group. Like the regular A4 sedan, the rear seat is cramped, with little leg room. Reliability of the A4 line has been below average."
THE DRIVING EXPERIENCE
The S4 rides a bit stiffly, transmitting low-speed impacts to the cabin. The car feels a little unsettled on the highway, and overall it doesn't feel as controlled as the BMW or Cadillac. The cabin is well-isolated from noise, with just a mild engine hum audible.
The S4 delivers very good handling, but not significantly better than the $30,000 A4 3.0 version. The steering is quick and responsive, and the car doesn't exhibit much body lean in corners. When pressed to its handling limits, the S4 tends to plow in corners, even with electronic stability control. It was secure and predictable and was easy to thread through our avoidance-maneuver course.
EXHIBIT 2 From Consumers report:
Sports CARS: The $50,000, High-performance Audi S4 and BMW M3 top our sports-car ratings, while blending fun and practicality.
Audi S4
BMW M3
Cadillac CTS-V
Pontiac GTO
The Audi S4 and BMW M3 sped to the top of our sports-car ratings this month. Although the two are different in character and driving behavior, their overall test scores, based on more than 45 individual evaluations, were a virtual tie. Both finished ahead of our previously top-rated sports car, the Subaru Impreza WRX STi, which is about $20,000 less expensive.
Although it finished third in this competitive group, the new Cadillac CTS-V also achieved an excellent overall score. The new Pontiac GTO, about $20,000 less expensive than the Audi, BMW, or Cadillac, scored notably lower overall in our tests.
All four cars have a strong engine and manual transmission, and can accelerate from 0 to 60 mph in less than 6 seconds. The Audi and Cadillac are four-door sedans, while the BMW and Pontiac are two-door coupes. The Audi is all-wheel drive, while the others use rear-wheel drive. The M3 is the only one that meets all of our criteria for being recommended. (See CR Quick Recommendations for more details.)
Three of the tested vehicles are limited-edition, high-performance versions of other cars in their respective model lines. The Audi S4, redesigned for 2004, is based on the compact A4. In contrast to previous S4 versions that used a turbocharged V6 engine, this S4 is powered by a 340-hp, 4.2-liter V8 that's similar to that in Audi's largest sedan, the A8.
The S4 is quick, has a beautifully crafted interior, and delivered the best fuel economy of the group. It has a very tight rear seat, though, and on our track it lacked the at-the-limit handling finesse of the BMW and Cadillac.
:shades:
Even 5-6 year old S4's with the 2.7T Turbo can be rather expensive on the used market if they've been taken care of and can be hard to find.
Keep your M3 and head back to the BMW forums. You obviously don't have any appreciation for the S4. The M3 is a fine car in it's own right, but you have no objectivity in being fair with other cars.
2001 BMW M3 in excellent condition with 100,000 mi $20,375
2001 Audi S4 in excellent condition with 100,000 mi $12,700
2002 M3 ( Same as above ) $22,875
2002 S4 ( Same as above ) $14,250
2003 M3 (Same as above) $26,100
2003 S4 (Model year change) No Data
2004 M3 (Same Data as above) $28,475
2004 S4 (Same Data as above) $20,975
Perhaps the S4 is falling apart :lemon:
If a $60,000 car depricates 50%, the resale is $30,000
If a $53,000 car depreciates 50%, the resale is $26,500
Numbers are relative, lemon boy.
Anyway, I do agree that Audi is on the move and that there is no weak vehicle in their lineup at this time. The question is how does Audi get out from under the shadow of Mercedes and BMW in this country? In build quality they are seemingly better made (at least initially) than BMWs and most Mercedes (the CLS, SLK, and new S being the exceptions imo), but Audi can't catch a break in the U.S. I've liked Audi since the 5000 days, but for some reason they aren't on a lot of buyers lists when the time comes to look at luxury cars. The A8 deserves a look more than any other Audi product (except the S4 Cabrio), but doesn't get looked at by enough luxury car buyers. The default choices are still the S-Class, 7-Series and to a lesser extent, the XJ and LS430. How does Audi change this? I mean look at the A6. Stunning design inside and out, but it isn't even close to the E,5,GS,M or STS in sales. There has to be something wrong with Audi's promotion or frachise for such a stellar car to go so unnoticed.
M
Sorry S4 owners :sick:
I'm a bit biased as an M3 owner, but I find the exterior styling of the S4 to be a bit boring. Looking forward to the RS4, thought.
I have always had a bias for BMWs but I really wanted 4WD (midwest weather) and I didn't like the look of the 3X-sedan (previous model). So I went with an A4 3.0Q. Have had it for 3 years now, have never had a problem with my car and I drive 18k highway miles p/year. I have test-driven an M3 cabrio and an S4 cabrio recently as I am looking to trade-in. They both drive amazingly, although the M3 feels more "racey" while the S4 is a lot more refined. Having said that, the heavy rumble of the S4's V8 is just that much more exhilarating than the high-pitched whine of the I-6!! Either way, both absolutely waste most other things on the road, eventhough the S4 is so much more understated that most people don't even know what they are up against (so I think I would quite enjoy the look of the Porsche driver who challenged the S4 and lost).
So what do you prefer? I guess it is just personal taste. Even to the M3 lovers, you can't deny that the S4 cabrio looks stunning (and the fact that there are not that many out there means resale values are actually much better than the sedan's). Personally, I have to commute in this car and that includes 3 months of snow ... so from a safety perspective I think I am going S4
cheers -
Firstly, which consumer report are you talking about? Go to Consumer Reports.org , and look up the BMW 3-series and Audi A4 reports. Granted, the Audi has atrocious reliability through 2001 (it is that reputation which hurts its resale value now ... ) but has shown consistent improvement since the new shape was introduced in 2002. Indeed, in 2003 it received only excellent and very good ratings and in 2004 ONLY excellent reliabillity ratings across EVERY category. Against that, in 2004 the 3-series scores only Very Good in Fuel System, Transmission, Electrical, Power Equipment, Body Integrity and Body Hardware. Again ... these are hard facts from Consumer Reports.org
Secondly, talking about a depreciating asset like a car (regardless of brand) as an "investment" is not particularly useful. You would normally expect an investment to appreciate, not lose 30% of its value the moment you drive it off the lot!!!
Thirdly ... I would direct you to BMWusa.com and go to "build your own M3". Look to the left of the screen and you will see that BMW itself classifies it as a 2006 model. I am more than fully aware that the M3 is up for a model change (and it will get a V8, and that it is expected to deliver 400 HP , etc etc etc ....). I did not intend it to mean the new model, if you want to use that logic then Audi will be introducing the new A4 series shape in the 2007 model year which will mean a new S4 which will undoubtedly be pushed to match the Bimmer for power (it is [non-permissible content removed] for tat between those brands).
Fourthly, get your facts straight. The 2005 MSRP for a sedan with stick was $45850 (before gas guzzler tax. See following website http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/audi_s4_2005/4129/model_overview.html). The comparable M3 coupe was $47300 (http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/bmw_m3_2005/4243/model_overview.html;_ylt=AondEun5GacdcWhT- dpCbfLuzIMQF) Even the 2006 model is $46,400 base MSRP before gas guzzler tax, which is materially lower than the $51k your are quoting. By the way .... if you talk facts - quote your source (I have as per the above links.
It is interesting that you would say "subjective opinions and distortions" and then follow that up with "unreliable and service-prone S4". Do you have a published data source that confirms that statement? Again, Consumer Reports.org dispute that view ... published data (not my opinion)
At the end of the day, though, all this is pretty useless. Cars are so much about personal taste ... if you fall in love with a car, who CARES about the fact that after a couple of years of enjoyment it is worth a couple of grand less!! Over the same period I will have spent more than that on dinners and drinks ... something I will never remember. The car will give me daily enjoyment - can't put a price tag on that. For the record - I love the look of the M3 (especially convertible) and if I lived somewhere where it did not snow, I would buy it without a doubt ... however, I really want the 4WD because it just deals much better with inclement weather.
Cheers -
1.Consumer Reports sells monthly magazines and also has a website. Got it? OK.
2. If you go to their website you can check to see what they say about many different products including cars. Got it? Take your time, this is not that difficult to understand. I'll even make it easy for you. I have a subscription to Consumer Reports and I will for the 3rd time post what they said about the BMW M3 and Audi S4.
Pasted below is what Consumer Reports said about your beloved S4:
"See a summary of test findings and Quick Picks--the choices that merit first consideration.
In a sports car we look for quickness, agility, and responsiveness. Comfort, convenience, and fuel
economy are important, but less so than with regular cars. Of the nine cars listed in the chart below, we recommend three. The Audi S4 (1) and Cadillac CTS-V (5) have had below-average reliability in their standard versions, the A4 and CTS, respectively, so we cannot recommend them. We lack reliability data on the Mazda RX-8 (4), Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution (6), Pontiac GTO (8), and Chrysler Crossfire (9).
The Ratings rank vehicles based on their overall score in our tests, irrespective of price or reliability. Recommended models ( ) not only tested well but have shown average or better reliability, and performed at least adequately if crash-tested or included in a government rollover test. Quick Picks are recommended models that in our judgment deserve special consideration based on your needs".
THIS IS WHAT WAS STATED ABOUT THE M3:
All four cars have a strong engine and manual transmission, and can accelerate from 0 to 60 mph in less than 6 seconds. The Audi and Cadillac are four-door sedans, while the BMW and Pontiac are two-door coupes. The Audi is all-wheel drive, while the others use rear-wheel drive. The M3 is the only one that meets all of our criteria for being recommended. (See CR Quick Recommendations for more details.)
Consumer Reports would not recommend buying a Audi S4. I wonder why? :lemon:
<a href="http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/past-road-test/sports-cars
I'm not going to by a car I don't want simply because it's worth a few thousand dollars more 3-4 years down the road. People with high discretionary incomes who purchase 50-60k cars buy what they want. Getting money back on resale is obviously a good thing. And no doubt the M3's do have a super strong resale value. So I'll give you that.
But why act like a child about it and say the S4 is a Lemon? That's not the case.
BMW's are no pillar of reliability and are very, very expensive to repair and maintain after they are out of warranty. So I don't what what you think you have in your M3.
1. Do your research and check out the M3 CSL Light Weight.
2. If you are still in denial (and I suspect you will always be) check out the M3 GTR 450 hp V8(street version) that will make your RS4 wet it's pants. :P
The current S4 is only a “refreshed” version of the old S4 (As is the same with all the A4 family). Audi has done this to hold the market over until the new B8 A4 is out in early 2008. So it comparing the current S4 and the current M3 is totally legitimate.
M3_R1. If you don’t understand the benefit of having all four wheels able to put power to the ground (weather conditions aside) then I think you should probably do a little more research, and next time you floor your car off the line, or take a corner faster than you should, and you get those tires a’ spinnin’ out of control maybe just maybe you’ll get it.
I love BMW, I love Audi I think both companies are totally innovative and make amazing cars. Audi has had a rough past with their quality, but that HAS been turned around. To me the reason to go with Audi is because it is not a BMW. But like I said you cant go wrong with either.
2. If you are still in denial (and I suspect you will always be) check out the M3 GTR 450 hp V8(street version) that will make your RS4 wet it's pants.
r1,
Unlike its Euro-spec counterpart, the M3 CSL, the CS is not a stripped-down,lightweight flyer. ... 1/4 Mile: 13.38 s @ 105.73 mph Price as Tested: $52300
M3 GTR is a car for true purists. An empty weight of approx. 1350 kilograms has been achieved. The 4.0 litre V8 engine with a cylinder bank angle of 90 degrees resembles the race version featuring in excess of 450 hp. Due to the necessary adaptations regarding emissions and noise levels the road version still generates more than 258 kW (350 hp).
- Im not even going to show the price!
- m3 gtr=350hp, The rs4=420 source www.fast-autos.net/bmw/bmwm3gtr.html
- I hope your new m3 doesn't come with this engine.
p.s.- I hope this shows the rs4 is more powerful and has a better drive train but another note I believe your in denial the proof is in the ink. :surprise: also do your home work
2. The new M3 will sport a 400hp V8 that will easily make quick work of the RS4 and any other Audi product on the market. In fact I will take on any RS4 with my current M3 and I promise you that a Dinan M3 will never lose to an Audi. :surprise: :surprise: :surprise:
2. The new m3 just might come with a 400hp 4.0l but it will weigh more and the Rs4 will make quick work of it.
3. Back to my s4, ko4 upgrade distorys the dinan, Im sorry but that is just a fact. I know it is because after racing one, into second gear I could see the dinan m3 on my side view mirror.
4. This a forum, just because you read an article in your favor doesn't mean much. Audi doesn't compare its self to bmw, you do, and any brand of car that threatens you. All cars have there ups and downs.
-- M3's are rwd coupes, the S4 is awd 4 door sedan "diffrent class."
That has nothing to do with the car and everything to do with the driver, bro. Cars can only go as fast as the driver, not the other way around. If I saw you and your M3 on the open road I'd challenge you, and unless your willing to push it to 150 you wouldn't stand a chance. You may own an M3, but do you REALLY know how to drive it? Do you know how to drift? Do you have the guts to push that car to it's limits? If you put 2 good drivers who are equally skilled behind the wheel of each car, the S4 would win. It's a lighter car with AWD and it has a more powerful engine.
Why is the S4 NOT RECOMMENDED by Consumer Reports?
I would imagine that some of it has to do with the bad gas mileage. If you can afford this car though the gas mileage should not be an issue at all. Consumer reports also bases much of their opinion on value for the money. We're talking about a sports sedan here though, not a friggin value. If you want a value go get one of those stupid looking new Volvo's. If I was looking for a new washing machine I would definitely consult Consumer Reports, but there's too much opinion factor and manufacturer loyalty with high end vehicles to make Consumer Reports the last word in this case. Audi has greatly improved their reliability issues as of late as well. Any poor reliability claims are based on older models and as we all know the 2004+ S4's are completely different from their older counterparts.
1) With options the M3 costs at least $10,000 more than the S4.
2) The S4 has several basic standard features that end up costing an extra $3,000 in the BMW.
3) The S4 gets maybe 2 less mpg on the highway, but it's V8 has more horsepower and much more torque which translates to a faster car if the driver knows what he/she is doing.
4) The BMW weighs nearly 600 pounds more than the S4 which makes a huge difference in performance, especially when the engines are close in horsepower. 333/340.
5) Both care have great handling and nice interiors. I test drove both and decided on the S4.
6) I could go on, but I think I've made my point.
There are some facts for ya.
Bottom line though, some people prefer BMW M3's and some prefer Audi S4's. Both are nice cars, so stop making dubious comparisons and be lucky that you're in a good enough financial space to be able to afford either of them. If you still have an inferiority complex just go buy an M5. They cost nearly 100K with options and taxes, but they can beat an S4. The M3 cannot.
I buy what I like to impress myself and be happy with my car.
I'm willing to give up 1/2 sec 0-60 to get an AWD car like the S4. It rides much better. The M3 is a very harsh riding vehicle to drive year around.
The interior on the S4 is much nicer, IMO as well. Those silk nappa leather seats are impeccable, and the whole interior vibe is better on the S4. Nobody can beat Audi for their interiors, and that's where you spend most of your time.
And the sound of Audi's 4.2 is glorious. Just starting the engine and hearing that V8 purr makes all the difference to me.
You guys can pick apart numbers all day long from Car & Driver, Motor Trend, etc, etc, about who's 1/2 second quicker here and there on the track. It's the everyday driving characteristics that make the difference for most people.
I will start and end with this. BOTH CARS ARE "AWESOME"
The bimmer was first. Amazing balance {no suprise there} and great acceleration. I think maybe a hair quicker in the first 20 or 30 yards than the S4. The sound of this mighty V6 is enough to stear one towards the the 4 rings. {the word ghastly, and strangling a cat come to mind} However this car is amazing. I think a better track car for sure. As someone intersted in autocross racing, this one get's the nod for that.Good seats great gearbox, clutch felt a mile long. Like I had to eat my knee to get it disengaged after upshift. The back end slid out in an absolutely delicous manner, never without letting you know ahead of time that was going to happen, and always so balanced. The ride was fairly quiet however, I would recommend re-gluing down any dentures that the pilot may have before entring vehicle.
S4
I had previously driven the 04 S4 and came away un-inspired. Not so with 06. Power comes without the tortured animal sounds and without fuss. There does seem to be a slight lag right off the line {even at high rpm launch} but it doesn't last long. Handling is great and very buttoned down. This to me is more of a GT car in the traditional sense. Better interior, smoother power, just not quite the out and out track car the bimmer is.
I have come to the conclusion that I will autocross maybe once a month, but will drive the car every day. For me the winner is the Audi. BOTH CARS ARE AWESOME however and you can't go wrong with either. JMHO.
I encourage everyone to test drive both vehicles and use your own judgement. See for yourself. I'm trying to go light on the opinion factor and just give facts about the #'s. The extra cost for the M3 over the S4 is significant, but you're NOT getting more for your money. To all you BMW loyalists- Test drive an S4 before you rag on them. I know it's hard to do in this country sometimes but keep an open mind because that's the only way good decisions can be made.