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Mercedes-Benz: Future Models
carcar
Member Posts: 19
Personally, I don't get what Mercedes is trying to do with the new CLS!! First of all, it looks ugly, sort of an ugly knockoff of the future Lexus GS models. Second of all, Mercedes has the C, E, and S Class vehicles, each filling their appropriate market segment. It doesn't explain why they're putting the CLS out there. If people want a cheaper S Class, buy an E Class!! The whole "coupe yet sedan" look is just plain weird. Time will only tell if they will sell. Mercedes is going in the wrong direction with this vehicle. I think the new Grand Sports Tourer/R Class type thing will be a bigger hit and all that Mercedes needs for now.
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By contrast, I'm not quite sure what Mercedes is now, especially having seen them at a recent autoshow. Their styling seems to be going towards neuvo-avant garde, with some almost cartoonish like details. The interiors are just festooned with buttons, drowning out obvious "smart engineering." The new SLK interior, while stylish, looks like Mazda or Alfa could have drawn it. The CLS and upcoming Pacifica-like vehicle (sorry, the name escapes me right now) don't make much sense to me. Slam BMW's recent design moves as one may, by contrast, they still have a BMW-ness performance focus about them.
I get the sense that Mercedes is trying to be like Lexus - something for everyone. That every vehicle can be smooth, sporty, silky, firm, understated, flamboyant, etc. all on the same car. I miss the focus of the Mercedes of old, and I'm far from old myself! If I had the money to buy one, I'd rather have a decent condition vintage Mercedes than a new one!
- Bret
BMW 3 5 7
Audi A4 A6 A8
Infiniti G M Q
Lexus Es Gs Ls
If you compare these brands in this chart, you can see that mercedes fills every category nicely with everyone else. The C is not superior to many of these, but it is competing. Everyone wants an E or S class. But where/why would you throw in a new model and detract from other models sales? Who would buy an wagon in between the c and e classes instead of another brand? wouldn't they also look at the c and e?
What MB does need is a full-size SUV that falls into the price range of a Navigator, maybe a little less than an LX470 or Range Rover.
I don't think they had any other niche to go for so they are trying to create one themselves. They already have more Coupes and Convertibles than any other luxury makers, so they decided to do something different. I'm not totally sold on the styling of the CLS, but it shouldnt' take away from the S or E Classes sales due to the CLS having a very impractical backseat arrangement and the price will be right in between the E and S. The CLS will also be a big profit maker, which Mercedes needs right now. The car didn't cost much to develop because it uses so much off-the-shelf E-Class hardware. On the body and some interior pieces are new. The new direct injection V6 will be used in every, and I mean every Mercedes model over the next 2 model years.
Now the GST (supposed to be R-Class) will be a runaway hit I'm betting. Crossovers are hot and Mercedes is currently completly absent in this segment. I agree with the earlier post, Mercedes needs a RR/LX470 competititor. Maybe the next G-Class? Not sure.
Mercedes basically had no choice but to expand. The old 1990's business model (from everything I've read and been told by the business-minded people here) just wouldn't have worked anymore. The Japanese forced the issue so Mercedes has to compete wherever they can and spread the costs out over more cars. Just think about it 10 years ago there was only a C, E, S and SL.
Its about survival now, even Porsche had to do a "different" kind of product to ensure their survival.
Three things Mercedes needs to do: improve reliability, stop with the under 30K model plans and never make and ugly car or veer off in a strange styling direction like BMW.
M
Having no choice is bad. Having some choice is good. Having too much choice becomes bad again. Mercedes is starting to act more and more American with each passing year. Too many choices, overlapping and confusing, and precious development and assembly resources being sucked away to accommodate a breadth of lower quality products when it probably should be spent focusing on a smaller but higher quality portfolio. And all this for the sake of maintaining or increasing market share, at all costs. This is silly, because the CLS isn't going to do what MB is looking for it to do, whereas Smart...
M
Wouldn't it be great if all of these luxury companies could improve their reliability? Unfortunately, only Lexus and Infiniti can say they have above-average reliability, and Lexus's arent "cool" enough for some and nobody buys the upper-end Infinitis. In my opinion, that's why people would by an MDX over a VW Touareg
Also, why not have a below- 30,000 dollar car? Many people buy the C-Class, even though its a terrible car. Fix it up, and have it compete with the 330's of the world.
Speaking of 330's, why not style like BMW? They are the best compact luxury car, ahead of the TL and G35. Plus, The average person would readily buy a 330-like car under the MB nameplate and not know it was a poorer version of a BMW if the price was right. Keep in mind, most buyers DON'T use Edmunds.com or Consumer Reports to purchase, so by targeting the clueless drivers they'd be selling to the majority.
The new wagon should have a partner sedan to go with it, to replace the poor C-class, and the new G-class, as merc1 suggested, should be styled more efficiently and should have an under 70K price tag.
I think they're looking for it to maintain or increase market share for the overall brand. I don't think it'll do so, it'll merely present yet another option to those who already are sold on the brand, and in the process add yet more complexity (read: cost) to the design and manufacturing processes to support the product lineup.
Will this model bring in new customers, or customers who would not have bought a MB in the first place? Or will it take away from C, E, and even M class buyers? Inevitably it will lower not boost sales.
Can someone tell me what MB does not have that would sell very well and that they should have, seeing how the other luxury models have it? (Hint: Full-size, practical luxury SUV. I understand BMW has one in the makes, joining RR, LX470 and QX56)
I agree totally about the large SUV thing. I've wanted a Range Rover competitor since the day the M-Class was announced. Mercedes knows they want to build a 75-100K truck anyway, but they sold their souls to the volume market with the ML with disastrous (quality) results.
BTW, the 2005 C-Class is much improved in the area that it needed it the most, interior. Hopefully all those things under the skin that were unreliable have been dealt with also. Mercedes' philosophy about how a car should drive will never allow them to out-sport the 3-Series, so they need to give up trying to out-sport this car, just make the C-Class a reliable, high-quality, fun to drive car that can keep up with the 3-Series in that area, but make it more luxurious. That is correct the Mercedes formula.
sphinx99,
I don't think they're expecting it to do much for market share worldwide at just 50K units a year, which is a small drop in the Mercedes bucket. I think they did it honestly for more profit as the CLS uses mostly off-the-shelf E-Class parts (chassis, engine etc) with only the body and a very select few interior pieces being truly "new". I would imagine the CLS didn't cost much to develop.
M
http://www.mbusa.com/brand/aboutus/news/newsFrame2004.jsp
M
I opened the trunk on the C230 Kompressor sedan and the lid just flew up and almost twisted my arm. Geez. At least let the lid go up slowly. None of the other automakers had this problem, including Chevrolet, Suzuki, Hyundai, Kia and BMW. I opened the liftgate on a C230 SportCoupe and when I tried to close it the latch was jammed. Keep in mind this was a brand new $28,000 MERCEDES On every other car I sat in and opened the liftgate, there was no problem with the latch jamming. All the problems I encountered were at the Mercedes Benz display.
I do think the Crossover Concept they had on display was quite nice looking.
M
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?n=156,178&sid=178&a- mp;article=7100
I hope it will be well built! Wonder what powerplant and price. Anyone know?
Bring it on, says I.
I swear at times I can't understand my own favorite brand. You bring Smart here as an outlet for cheaper vehicles, then give Mercedes a variant also? What the hell for?!
M
Gotta let go of that brand image thing, Merc! You have to believe that Mercedes can be bigger and better than just Lux here. I know I do!
M
It's weird how Mercedes is offering all of these wagon choices, yet wondering why people like companies like Nissan/Infiniti (no wagons), Toyota/Lexus (Matrix, the only one other than the Scions) and Honda/Acura (Civic is it)
Why?
The 2007 G-Class should however be a true Range Rover competitor, no doubt.
M
Look at it this way. Think how many Navigator and Tahoe buyers the GX and LX have taken away. G Class buyers aren't really in that price range. Wouldn't Mercedes sell more luxury, 7 pass. SUV for 60-70K than a wagon model when they would new wagons, when there's already the E and C classes to choose from?
They'll have a mainstream SUV...the ML, then a crossover the R-Class and then an upper SUV the G-Class. I just don't see Mercedes, BMW or any other German company building a Tahoe/LX470 sized vehicle.
M
The DC merger really got off on the wrong foot, but after checking out some of Chrysler's new products, I am REALLY impressed.
I think MB, in addition to broadening its product line, has to figure out how to coordinate its product (platforms, engines and trannies) with Dodge and Chrysler.
Otherwise, they'll end up like GM, which has some good looking cars with great engines, some good looking cars with old dunger engines, some low quality cars with great engines, and too many low quality cars with low quality engines.
I agree with you 100% that MB should dump below $30k cars. That's what Chrysler and Dodge are for.
I also agree with you that MB should expand into any luxury niches its weak on, but I think they need to coordinate this effort with Chrysler and Dodge.
Here's how I'd organize the product line.
Dodge would get a few RWD performance cars, but the main lineup would be economy FWD cars, FWD minivans and small to midsize FWD SUVs. Dodge would also get a few large RWD SUVs. Also trucks.
Chrysler would get cheaper versions of MB's RWD cars and upscale versions of Dodge SUVs. Less luxurious, different design. Engines would be same as MB engines (to save costs), except the v8 would be Hemis instead of expensive DOHC v8s. The MB v6s in Chrysler's would be the same as MB's, except that even though MB's v6s would be high compression, they would be detuned to run on regular gas only in order to cheaply differentiate them from the premium MB v6s.
MB would get the premium engines (DOHC v8s instead of the Hemi, or hell, maybe even a bigger and badder Hemi) and go with upscale, luxurious cars all the way. MB would get the funky hi-tech transmissions that MB is famous for also, whereas Chrysler and Dodge get standard, cheaper (but maybe more reliable) low tech transmissions.
"I think MB, in addition to broadening its product line, has to figure out how to coordinate its product (platforms, engines and trannies) with Dodge and Chrysler."
Picture me standing on my desk here at work jumping up and down in protest. NO! This would destroy Mercedes-Benz.
"I also agree with you that MB should expand into any luxury niches its weak on, but I think they need to coordinate this effort with Chrysler and Dodge."
I'm not sure what niche they could enter with help from those two brands.
"MB would get the premium engines (DOHC v8s instead of the Hemi, or hell, maybe even a bigger and badder Hemi) and go with upscale, luxurious cars all the way. MB would get the funky hi-tech transmissions that MB is famous for also, whereas Chrysler and Dodge get standard, cheaper (but maybe more reliable) low tech transmissions."
Well every transmission should be reliable.
Overall I guess I still get nauseous when I think about a Chrysler and Mercedes sharing a jointly developed platform. So far this hasn't happened. Yes the Crossfire is a rebodied SLK, but the SLK will be all new in 2 months. The 300/Magnums have Mercedes inspired suspension design and some previous E-Class parts (seats, steering columns etc.), but not the entire platform.
I think they should share parts where it doesn't affect the character of the respective brands. People aren't going to buy a 80K S-Class if they know there is a Chrysler equivalent running around. They can't ever share platforms in the way Ford/Jaguar does say with their S-Type/Linc LS. They can share alternators, seat tracks, and various nuts and bolts, but the stuff that makes a Mercedes a Mercedes can't be jointly developed on a platform intended for use in a new Chrysler and Mercedes at the same time. It won't work.
So far I think they've done the right things and the Chrysler side of the house is starting to show signs of a turnaround, but it is way too early to say anything about it yet.
I think for this union to work both Mercedes and Chrysler has to be left to do what they do best and work together in areas that will save them both money and R&D time without messing up the character of each brand. In short only get what they need from each other and nothing more. The boys in Germany should just give the boys in Detroit technical, purchasing and R&D support, not tell them what kind of cars to build and certainly vice versa (like that would ever happen anyway).
M
LOL
Overall I guess I still get nauseous when I think about a Chrysler and Mercedes sharing a jointly developed platform. So far this hasn't happened. Yes the Crossfire is a rebodied SLK, but the SLK will be all new in 2 months. The 300/Magnums have Mercedes inspired suspension design and some previous E-Class parts (seats, steering columns etc.), but not the entire platform.
Well, I know how you feel about MB, but honestly, part and platform sharing are going to happen with increasing frequency, whether you like it or not. And it's not like MB is really lowering itself. There are stripper MB taxis all over Germany after all.
I like the idea of using old Benz platforms and parts for Chrysler and possibly Dodge as well. That's a good way to increase ROI on old plant and equipment, and it won't devalue MB b/c MB will get the latest and greatest.
I think platform sharing can work under the following circumstances:
1. different interior and exterior parts so that the cars look different, with the better stuff going in the upscale model.
2. better, more powerful engine in the upscale model.
If it's just badge engineering (which it unfortunatley too frequently is) then it'll devalue MB.
I think for this union to work both Mercedes and Chrysler has to be left to do what they do best and work together in areas that will save them both money and R&D time without messing up the character of each brand. In short only get what they need from each other and nothing more.
I hear where you're coming from. Esthetically I agree with you, but dollarswise, I don't think it's going to happen the way you want it to.
I don't think we'll see much reverse osmosis from Chrysler to Benz (much to the everlasting relief of our friend here) anytime real soon. Personally I think Merc has a valid point in that there's not much to gain yet.
Yet.
OTOH, there is a measure of adapability inherent in the culture in Auburn Hills that I don't think really exists in the Benz boardroom, and there are learnings there that would be helpful to a mfr looking for a true global presence and a shot a dominance.
You guys go harp on the under 30 product all you want; I, for one, would very much be interested in a B hatch with some amenities and a smokin' plant. Cars in this size range interest me greatly, and as I like my cockpit trimmed in leather with some comfy features and as little NVH as possible, having an alternative to the typical econobox applications is right up my alley and down my freeway! That's how I ended up in what I drive now, and that's why things like an A3 Sportback (or an S4 Avant) look good for my future. Don't need bigger and roomier. If I wanted to go that way, I'd have seized on the '03 540iT and the outrageous lease I was offered like a Pit Bull on a lamb shank (prettiest wagon I ever done seen and a pip to drive)!
C'mon, bring a B and make it hot!
I don't think we'll see much reverse osmosis from Chrysler to Benz (much to the everlasting relief of our friend here) anytime real soon. Personally I think Merc has a valid point in that there's not much to gain yet.
I'm wondering if MB will put the upcoming 6.1L Hemi in any of their model lines.
I, for one, would very much be interested in a B hatch with some amenities and a smokin' plant.
Dodge Magnum with a Hemi? It might not have the amenities you want but it's a smokin' wagon.
You know Mercedes will never put a Hemi in one of their cars.
M
Scene
Snobby looking European in Armani suit driving MB SLK AMG pulls up to a ratty burger joint. Sweaty, beefy, greasy teenager leans out of drive-thru window.
European: "Excuse me sahr, but do you have some Grey Poupon?"
Teenager: "That thang got a Hemi?"
M
That B-class hatch with the 3.2L or so? Geddouttahere!
C230
C240
C320
C55 AMG
(several bodystyles for most engine/trim choices and 4Matic versions)
E320
E320 CDI
E500
E55 AMG
(Again, several bodystyle for most engine choices and 4Matic versions)
S430
S500
S600
S55 AMG
CL500
CL55 AMG
CL600
CL65 AMG
SL500
SL55 AMG
SL600
SL65 AMG
CLK320
CLK500
CLK55 AMG (Coupe and converitble bodystyles for each engine choice)
SLK350 (brand new models)
SLK55 AMG
ML350
ML500
G500
G55 AMG (new 469hp supercharged engine from the E/CL/S/SL "55" models)
SLR McLaren
For the 2006 model year:
CLS500 (Feb-March 2005 with a next generation V8)
R-Class (known as the GST right now, giant crossover vehicle)
M-Class (all new model, May 2005 as a 2006 model)
Is this too many models?
M
What models do you think they should eliminate?
M
I've seen pictures on the Internet and have read a little, but am looking for more information, such as specs and when exactly is will be available (I've heard January). Any information would be appreciated. Thanks.
This seems to be a Benz-bashing site, so naturally I'd better investigate!
In short, yeah, Mercedesa is SMOTHERING the market in models, and not showing a commenserate increase in sales, so some beancounter should hold up a red-flag.
That B-Blass looks like a Mazda MPV to me. I can't see what it's competition would be, much less a price.
I dig the SL, CL, E-Class (except for the electric brakes and throttle), and the S-Class general styling (sans the S430 model, the Comand system, and the $10k too high price).
Everything else needs serious work.
The M seems to be getting attention as we speak.
The G is just too archaic outside.
The C should go to one model only, the C320, with stick and AWD available.
The CLS is just a strange-looking concept of a car, one better left at a car show turntable. Overstyled, a true misfit.
The B-Class: See above
The A-Class: See above
Drop one of the CL AMG models.
Give the C-sedan some original style, a sense of independence. It comes off as a half-pint S430 with no back seat, and a mutated cousin (C230).
Mercedes is becoming the GM of the luxury market. Overgrown, needs landscaping, furnace works good, but the piping has gone bad! Hate to say it, but it's true....
Desperate? Like no other.
DrFill (DIG)
This is the first time though I've heard of an "overstyled" car which say the CLS is. Is that opposed to a understyled or no-styled car that each and every Lexus is?
The only thing we might be close on the B-Class, while I personally don't have problem with its looks, the price and fwd layout are not traditional Mercedes and shouldn't be sold here.
Lexus: The relentless pursuit for complete and utter bordem.
M
http://www.mbusa.com/brand/models/CLS500C.jsp
M
I assume the price is not traditional US Mercedes, and so therefore shouldn't come here. Codswallop.
Unfortunately, the closest Benz to a compact sport wagon (C320) was dropped like an old glove here, leaving nothing but the underpowered and overpriced C240 for the backpack enthusiast. I had hoped the B would be RWD and would take some of the sting away in range of power choices and perhaps an AMG. No.
On Lexus, my apparently soon to be former brand, the less said, the better. Thanks goodness for Audi...
The CLS is overstyled and a slyly done Jaguar rework (can't fool this old goat) just like they cloned the round headlight on the 96 E class and called it all new Mercedes design. So Mercedes has this so-called styling but their quality is in the toilet compared to the stronger Japanese. Which does the consumer care more about a kool looking curve or telling the boss can't come in today Jim fixing my car AGAIN.
If Lexus is utter boredom that's a compliment because the E class is utter generic looking safe design that has an interior on level with Nissan of today. Merc1 your trying too hard sailor. You know your favorite brand is not what it use to be and that's all their fault. Competition brings out the problems that once were hidden or swept under. You can't wish away a problem or live in denial. My uncle wisely said way back wait till the Japanese get to the Germans they will feel the pain the domestics did. And they are. Another salute to Toyota the world's most powerful auto making money machine.
If you don't like the CLS that is fine and of course your styling critique is your opinion. Mercedes has always been, beyond there three sedan models, a niche player and the CLS is just another car in that tradition. The SLK, SL, CL, G and SLR are all niche products.
At this point I find the harping about reliability to be something that most here can do because they have nothing else to really talk about anymore. I don't expect any car company to be able to fix their problems overnight...long as they are doing something about it...it is encouraging to me. Mercedes seems to be doing something about their problems, trouble is Americans are slow to learn there is a problem and once they do they're even slower to realize the problem has been fixed. Oh, and I'm not saying the problem is fixed at Mercedes, but I am saying the ranting about it is beyond tired at this point.
You'll talk about Mercedes' quality being in the toilet and I'll continue to say Lexus makes the worlds most boringly and/or derivative luxury cars inside and out, with both views being able to be supported by either surveys or roadtests, so we'll have to agree to disagree.
M
Mercedes is always very good about taking care of their customers. I personally find the complete lack of rearward vision on an RX as well as the "detached" driving experience of all Lexus models to be far worse of an engineering flaw than a software "flash" for an E class radio that shuts off a few times.
At least a Mercedes has proper driving dynamics.
P.S. Mercedes makes all the available models with more features because they can. It takes gifted engineering to build an arsenal such as theirs, that's why everyone else sits on the fence to see what Mercedes does first, then follows suit.