Luxury Performance Sedans

drtravel · April 2005

Looking for some feedback on this question. I'm choosing between a 36, 39 or 42 month lease on the M. One issue is when is the best time of the year to end a lease? If I sign a 36 month lease now it will end in April 2008 which leaves me in a position to buy a 2008 model that has been out for six months or so or maybe an early introduction 2009 model. If I get a 39 month lease it will end in July 2008 meaning that I'm about 3 months away from most new 2009 models but I believe way too late in the year for a 2008 model - if I get a new car then it will be a year old in just three months. Maybe they will extend the lease to give me a crack at the 2009s?? If I get a 42 month lease it will end in October, 2008 just in time for a good selection of 2009 models. I know some are not big fans of the 42 month lease but the timing is one reason I'm considering it. Any insightful input will be appreciated.

qbrozen · April 2005

I don't know about cstiles, but it certainly didn't change my mind. 1.19 million sales last year? Oh, ouch, yeah, I'm sure that hurts. :confuse:

As a matter of fact, I just saw a clip in this week's autoweek that only 5 manufacturers in the world top 1 million a year. Nissan has just joined the ranks of GM, Ford, Toyota, and, of course, Honda.

markcincinnati · April 2005

I don't know any way other than a SWAG to answer this. The 2005 Chrysler 300C, came out when? The 2006 M came out when? The Lexus GS's came out when?

The new BMW's called '06's came out when?

The Audi A4 2005.5, same question.

The 2005 G's from Infiniti came out very late (like November) -- yet the 2006 M's came out in February.

I have no clue how to even suggest the right time, unless all manufacturers PROMISE from now on to make their new models come out within 30 days of each other and always in October (which means September, October or November).

Fat chance.

Sorry.

gandhim3 · April 2005

GM sold $4.7 million vehicles last year - but it does not mean they are doing great.

The point I am trying to make was Honda is not in a strong position in the near future because of lack of exciting product - hopefully the upcoming Civic replacement will change that.

Getting back on topic, Honda will never be seriously consider a premium luxury car until they introduce a RWD car. Selling re-badged Accords does not cut it - even if you have a sophisticated AWD system. Same problem with Audi, if you ask me. Volkswagen and Audi are a little too similar in look and feel nowadays - and that hurts Audi more then it benefits Volkswagen.

Growing up, I use to aspire to owning BMWs. Great performance at a good price. Now that I am at a point where I can afford one of their cars, I no longer see the value in them. They are overpriced just like Mercedes.

Just my opinion, of course.

qbrozen · April 2005

well, yes, we're way off topic ... in a roundabout way ... but just one point to answer your comment about GM:
Selling 1.19 million with little to no incentives is VERY different from selling them with huge discounts and incentives (i.e., at a much lower profit margin and maybe even at a loss sometimes).

cstiles · April 2005

The AutoWeek article also doesn't change my opinion about Honda/Acura. It merely states that they have their work cut out in an intensely competitive market place. But I believe Honda and Acura are working from a position of strength.

I've suggested to Mark Cincinnati that I think there are far too many marquees and models available today, and there will be some significant casualties in the next 5-10 yrs. Brands like Saab, Jaguar, Buick, Pontiac, Mitsubishi, Isuzu, etc. may be entirely gone from the U.S. market due to poor mgmt and poor products. Honda won't remotely be in that league. (And to remain on topic, several of these brands sell luxury performance cars, or at least aspire to play in that league.)

Remember that Honda/Acura almost totally eschews commercial fleet sales. GM and Ford and DC and Toyota and Nissan's sale numbers are helped by the tens of thousands of cars they sell to rental fleets or company fleets every year (often at cost or less). I work for a U.S. corporation ranked in the Fortune top 15, and for 80 years we bought nothing but domestic brands for our commercial fleets. We have just started to buy hundreds of Nissan Maximas for our executives as company cars. I give Nissan credit for moves like this. Before Ghosn, Nissan was on the brink of bankruptcy!! Honda indeed needs to get more creative in their marketing, and consider selling some of their cars to commercial fleets (at the risk of taking hits in resale value).

On the luxury performance end, I do think Acura may roll out a car to sit above the RL, if the RL has at least modest success, and so far, sales numbers are decent in a very tough marketplace. 300HP is probably the most power you can squeeze out of a naturally aspirated 6, and Honda/Acura has avoided forced induction in their powertrains. I think it's just a matter of time before they roll out a V8 "flagship," but the RL is a critically important car for them to bridge that gap.

lexusguy · April 2005

From C&D's top 20.

You're giving me one moth of data. That doesnt say much of anything. Accord sales for the year through march are 77,371. Last year in march they had sold 83,231. Down 7%. In 2003, they sold more than 83 thousand by March. Camry sales are up 2% compared to last march to 98,504. So they Accord is not quite nipping at Camry's heels. The Civic is doing even worse. Nissan now sells more Altima's than Honda does Civics. Civic sales through march were 59,225, compared to 73,149 last year, down 19%. Corolla absolutely spanks the Civic in sales, with 81,658, up 9% and more sales than Accord.

Remember, as I've said before, I'm not trying to say that Honda is in the position of the REALLY hurting Isuzu and Mitsubishi. They arent. Honda will act, what I was saying is I am interested to see in what they can come up with now that they have a little more competitive pressure than they are necessarily used to.

cstiles · April 2005

Good points. The net increases to their sales figures suggest that the mix of cars (or trucks) that Honda/Acura sells is clearly changing, with less reliance on the bread and butter Accord and Civic. There's a positive lining to that, with more diversity, luxury, and performance within their total product line. However, I agree with you that they have their challenges laid out to maintain their momentum and growth. As someone said earlier, they are a victim of their own success, along with the relentless strides that Toyota and Nissan are making.

markcincinnati · April 2005

Somehow I have managed to keep both Toyota and Honda as my clients even through the last three terrible years here in Ohio and in Information Technology (my field). When I am with the management (at lunch or golf or whatever) and the subject of "the market" comes up, Toyota seems (emphasis added) to be certain of world dominance soon -- but they seem to respect Honda while they literally make fun of some of the other Japanese Rivals (I guess they don't even consider any European car worthy of comment.) Two years ago they even made fun of Nissan. In 2004 that particular action ceased altogether. Nissan, apparently, is back on the radar as at least a potential rival. Honda has never left their radar.

At Honda the culture is somewhat similar, but those managers seem very excited about "upcoming" product. I don't know what this means and even if I did I have signed all kinds of non-disclosrures (as if I am even near to the "secret" future stuff) and couldn't comment. Honda, however, does seem more interested in CARS and Toyota seems more interested in BUSINESS. From one perspective I admire the "car guys." I always heard what was killing GM was the non car guys (the bean counters as they are called).

Toyota is obsessed with quality -- obsessed, and I mean obsessed. Toyota is obsessed with doing quality better while reducing costs. There is not much talk about "cars" -- well once or twice they talked about the new HP that is coming to the Camry line and they are also darn proud of the current and upcoming Toyota V8's (made in America).

Honda too is obsessed with quality but it almost seems as if they are obsessed with quality from the standpoint of how the car will drive if the tolerances for joints is such and such. They want their cars to perform "perfectly" shift perfectly, etc -- to enhance the driving experience.

Now, most of these folks are US born men (an a woman or two) from these two companies -- the Toyota folks are all from small town Kentucky and the Honda folks are all from small town Ohio (but reasonably close to Columbus).

Maybe the folks in Ohio are more "car guys" and maybe the Kentucky managers are more bean counters -- and maybe this doesn't mean anything other than its just these particular people.

Both companies have "handbooks" of behavior and philosophy. Both companies are very regimented -- even the managers stand when the bell rings and go to lunch all at the same time in the corporate lunch room (and the president does too).

The Honda way SEEMS to be more focussed on the product as it relates to its customer's driving, the Toyota way SEEMS to be more focussed on making the cars "perfect" at the lowest possible price -- with only a passing nod to "driving."

I hate to say this, but probably Toyota will triumph, but Honda is "serious" competition if you believe the Toyota people's words and body language.

Just some random observations.

As you were.

lexusguy · April 2005

Toyota is doing so strongly in the US because they understand what the majority of people here want in a car. Ford and GM understand this as well. What they sell here is mostly garbage, and what they sell in Europe are are almost always better to significantly better cars. Europeans just demand more. Toyota just plays the game of making "ol' boring and reliable" better than Detroit does. The Celica and MR2 didnt really fit with that kind of approach, and their fate was sealed.

Lexus is trying to be more "driver focused", but because of traiditonal Toyota think, I think its going to be a very tough road for them. Over-boosted steering, too much suspension travel, and too much electronic meddling are most likely going to continue. I dont care if you have to hold the button down for 10 seconds, hit it 20 times, or whatever, but in a car like the GS430, making the stability system mandatory when you're trying to take on BMW is just not smart. The GS430 would've gotten much less bashing from the press if the VDIM system could be disabled. More than the GS, though, the IS350 will really tell the story as to wether Clements is all bark and no bite.

It seems like Honda understands the mistakes they made moving the Civic to a Mac strut suspension. I would definitely expect the new car to get its independent underpinnings back, and it will definitely become a little more spunky and less Corolla-ish. Some more ponies is also definitely a must have. The Civic's fuel economy is great, but with the Mazda3 taking bites out of it, they could stand to lose a few mpg for some more horses. Another thing, and this is just a rant, is Honda has GOT to learn how to design a set of brakes. There is simply no excuse for an Acura RSX to goble 195 feet of road in a 70-0 stop. It just looks bad. Either get a major contract with Brembo or Wilwood, or start puting proper brakes in your cars.

In my opinion, Honda needs more and bigger trucks, it needs a car to slot above the Accord in terms of size with a Honda badge on it, it needs to make SH-AWD cost effective on models cheaper than the RL, or use VTM-4, or something to make cars like the TL AWD. Most importantly they have to suck it up and build a V8. Honda also needs to make huge marketing changes and get the Civic and possibly a new model to slot below it in terms of price to keep Scion at bay. Nissan has acted incredibly fast to deal with the Scion threat. They know that the Sentra really isnt working. The Azeal and that gorgeous Sport Coupe Concept at New York are the perfect weapons to aim directly at the tC and xA. Honda needs something like that, and fast.

mg808 · April 2005

To go along with the current theme, Honda needs to compete with Toyota and its line of cars/trucks. Nissan is bottom feeding on the Accord while Toyota launched Scion to take the Civic customer away from Honda. Toyota with its Avalon and large line of SUV/Trucks should be Honda's target. The new Civic and possibly a restyled Accord will keep Nissan and Scion at bay.

Acura needs a flagship car to one-up Infiniti and Lexus. Even with the new Lexus LS around the corner, its pricing is approaching 7series / S Class. Acura has an opportunity to do what Lexus did years ago. Provide the flagship luxury sedan with a big engine (V8 or better) at a great price. Acura must do that or will suffer from being a near-luxury car maker. Its not like Honda can't build bigger engines, their F1 and Indy Car engines are some of the best V8/V10 engines in the world. They just need to detune and send them to the assembly lines. Only if it was that easy...

cstiles · April 2005

Toyota is also substantially larger, more efficient, and has more resources than Honda and Nissan. Considering the state Nissan was in 4 years ago, their turnaround is pretty remarkable.

Toyota
265,000 employees
04 Revenues $164B
04 Net Inc $11B

Honda
131,600 employees
04 Revenues $78B
04 Net Inc $4.5B

Nissan
124,000 employees
04 Revenues $70B
04 Net Inc $4.8B

GM
324,000 employees
04 Revenues $194B
04 Net Inc $2.8B

Ford
325,000 employees
04 Revenues $172B
04 Net Inc $3.5B

jrock65 · April 2005

M35 vs. 530i vs. E350 pricing.

Infiniti M35 (Journey/Tech Package): $47,500

BMW 530i (Premium package, Premium sound, Steptronic, Park distance control, Active cruise, Navi, Satellite radio): $58,000

MB E350 (Lighting package, Premium package, Ventilated seats, Hands-Free communication with voice control, Keyless Go, Parktronic, Satellite radio, Tire pressure monitor): $64,000

I knew that the MB and BMW sold at a premium, but I didn't realize that the gap is so large. $10,500 less than a comparable 530i and $16,500 less than the E350. The fact that the E and the 5 are still sales leaders even at those prices is pretty impressive.

xkss · April 2005

cstiles,

Please note the following thread about Jaguars

New aluminum Jaguars

lexusguy · April 2005

The reason that the E and 5 still lead is that 2006 is the first year that Japan has really fought back. Give Japan another 10 years of serious competition in this segment, and we will see if Germany is still the leader.

merc1 · April 2005

I have never seen an E350 loaded up quite like that, I suspect most buyers would just get an E500 at that price. I have seen a 545i for 66K though. I couldn't believe it but it did have everything though. I suspect that in 2005 both Mercedes and BMW will see a big drop in sales on these two models, especially Mercedes because from what some are saying on other boards, at least a few MB buyers are falling for the CLS instead.

M

merc1 · April 2005

What I'm waiting to see is how MB and BMW will respond with their mid-cycle facelifts to the E and 5-Series. A BMW 550i is a sure thing and the rumor is the E500 will become the 380hp E550 for 2007. We'll see. It is so interesting to see how now all three luxury sedan segments are just bursting with compeition. Just a few years ago you had only a few choices now the magazines have to get at least eight editors to compare all the cars in this class. The entry level segment will start making the rounds in the mag comparos once the C350, A4 3.2, IS350 and new 330i are all on the market, along with the existing models. I feel for Jaguar, being overun in every segment except for the XJ, which will be put back in its place when the new S-Class comes along. I'm reading where Jaguar is to keep the X-Type in production for four more years!

M

lexusguy · April 2005

Four more years? Youch! It will be year number 10 by the time a new XK actually rolls in. I can understand why Jaguar is retreating from being any kind of volume production player, these kinds of cycles are just not possible in today's world. If your car is 5 years old, its due for redesign. By year number 7, its literally ancient. In a side note, TVR has been sold to a Russian, and MG\Rover just went bankrupt. There goes the last of British auto.

cstiles · April 2005

XKSS---Nice photos! Jaguar makes beautiful cars and is obviously a player in Europe with their hand-made and sophisticated status. It will be a sad day if the Jaguar brand is forced to scrutinize their survival in the US. Do they have the resources to overcome the disaster called the X-Type? The S-Type is also fading fast.

Just not sure if Jaguar can appeal to a segmented and fickle U.S. luxury marketplace, where immediate gratification, commoditization, and over-reliance on leasing rule the roost. I sure hope they can scratch their way out because the Jaguar brand really stands for something that most other brands pretend to have.

mnjoe · April 2005

I'm in Minnesota. Here's the question: can you direct me to a site to understand the differences in AWD systems on M35, GS300, A6, STS, and RL? They seem very different. Will all work well in a snowy climate. I have enjoyed reading your forum, and have learned alot.

markcincinnati · April 2005

Try this:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/four-wheel-drive.htm

and this:

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/bown/2004/autotech/article/0,22221,750808,00.html

and this:

http://mozart.chat.net/~jeske/unsolicitedDave/legacy/awd.html

and finally:

http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/difference_4WD_awd.html

These URL's are are links to explanation of a variety of AWD/4WD drive systems.

Some are easy to understand, some a little more techie, but all pretty good.

lexusguy · April 2005

Audi's Quattro is a mechanically based, fixed torque split setup. The rest of the cars use electronic systems that work hand in hand with their respective traction\stability control systems. The RL's SH-AWD is notable among this group because it has the ability to varry torque levels to the left and right rear wheels and accelerate the outer wheel in cornering. This acts as a counter balance to the RL's front heavy weight bias, which without SH-AWD would lead to a lot of understeer. Both it and the GS can vary torque 30/70 rear to 70/30 front. The M35 uses a similar setup, but it has the ability to send 100% of torque all to the rear wheels, emulating the feel of a RWD car, but can bring up to 50% to the front tires when necessary. The M's is the most performance oriented of the group, as under normal conditions, its essentially not AWD at all. All of them should work well in the snow, provided you arent using ultra-performance summer tires. AS tires will probably work, but you'll get best results with a dedicated set of snow tires like Alpins or Blizzaks.

markcincinnati · April 2005

Audi's system is indeed mechanical it is called a Torsen system (for Torque Sensing). At rest, quattro is -- at least for the current generation -- 50-50 torque split. However, a Torsen system can instantly "appropriate" torque and send it where needed (f or r). I didn't read the current Audi gospel on this, but as I recall the Torsen set up allows an instantaneous transfer of power to the wheels with the most traction up to a 75 25 split.

Audi has mated the Torsen system with some electronic assistance in the form of ASR (let's see, Anti Slip Regulation), ESP (electronic stability program) and ETC (or something that means electronic traction control.) Additional systems work in concert to provide brake assistance which increases the stopping pressure on the rotors based on the speed at which you press the brake not just the force or travel of the pedal beneath your foot.

Some of these systems used by these manufacturers are sourced from Bosch, some from Teves (sp?) and many of them behave remarkably similarly.

The current philosophy (not that I disagree with it) is to somewhat "trash" AWD systems that are FWD biased (Acura and Volvo are FWD biased, for instance), Audi's quattro sorta, kinda, a little bit, gets a pass since it, at least is nominally a 50 50 torque split. The Mercedes 4Matic and BMW's X-drive and the above mentioned system employed by Infiniti are, or at least can be truly RWD biased AWD.

I recently test drove a Volvo S60 type R -- the company brochure says the Volvo system is 95% FWD and 5% RWD unless or until power is needed to be spread out differently. I did not drive the Volvo on snow, but I did get really aggressive with it on dry pavement. I could detect no torque steer (as one can feel in an Acura TL or Audi A4 FWD for instance) and I would say the feeling was "transparent" -- I have had dozens of Audis and I can likewise state that the action of the quattro system is invisible. The Acura system is probably also transparent -- the issue that some have with the Acura is with the engine being somewhat anemic (300HP in a V6 is hardly anemic, but I understand the gripe). The Infiniti and the two RWD biased Germans seem to be the editors faves -- but their highly tuned bottoms must be able to detect that slight RWD sensation better than mine.

I just ordered an Infiniti M35x FWIW and currently have two Audi quattros in my garage. My daily driver is an allroad with a 6 speed manual and a 250 HP 258 pound feet of torque at 1850RPM engine -- I know it is nominally a 50 50 split, but -- if I'm lyin' I'm dyin' -- I couldn't tell it was not RWD biased if my life depended on it. Likewise the new M35x which I have now extensively test driven cannot be, by my bum, felt to be "RWD" biased.

What I notice about the Audi cars is that they are nose heavy and can be pushed into understeer (but I think most people would be hard pressed to create this condition during normal and even super normal daily drives.)

The current crop of AWD system used day in and day out are all snow worthy, but more importantly coupled with good suspensions these things are even better in the dry because of these drive trains.

I would urge you to test the cars in question -- thoroughly. Then test them again and again until you get the feel you like from a particular car -- then all things being "similar" (price, color, options, etc) get THAT one.

This may make some here want to argue, but -- Audi has been doing AWD cars for 25 years. The other guys are still, to a lesser or greater extent, still in their learning curves.

As far as I am concerned AWD is THE ONLY way to go -- and it has very little to do with snow and everything to do with performance, fun, control and safety (and probably in that order, too).

Drive it like you live.

lexusguy · April 2005

I agree that in normal driving, I think all AWD systems regardless of wether they are torsen, haldex, or electronic, will feel pretty similar. The one thing I have noticed in driving the Infiniti "x" cars is how easy it is to bring the tail out, just like in a RWD car. A quick stab of the throttle and flick of the steering wheel is all that is required. You just cant do that in an Audi. Wether this has to do more with weight balance rather than Quattro vs. ATTESA-ETS I dont know. All I can say is that the G35x and M35x "feel" RWD to me.

I agree that Quattro is the veteran of the group, but ATTESA is not exactly a spring chicken. Its been used in the Skyline GT-R for quite a long time. The GS's system is also directly related to the one in the RX that has been around for awhile. The only real "new guy" is SH-AWD, and I've heard of some possible problems.

markcincinnati · April 2005

Only because I have been through Audis driving school in Austria 4 times can I state that the Audi can be driven with the tail out, as you state. It can be made to perform a perfect figure 8 driving with the throttle.

It requires "schoolin'" but it was second nature after two days of training. My wife to this day, loves to make her Audi "power slide" as the instructors called it.

Audis, I have learned, have been under rated in terms of their prowess -- I can only imagine what Audis will be like with the engines moved backwards a couple more inches, the batteries moved to the rear and quattro made to be slightly RWD biased (coming soon if you believe the rumor mill).

lexusguy · April 2005

I stand corrected. The one thing that I really like about the G and M performing these kinds of manuvers is that I always felt in control. Even with the tail out, I didnt get the kind of uneasy feeling that you get when power sliding an XKR. While its better than the XJ-S before it, its still more frightening than fun. When the Jag loses traction, feel at the helm drops to absolute ZERO, and its very hard to discern how much counter steer is required to bring the nose back in line.

I understand that "the latest generation of Audis permanent four-wheel drive featured for the first time in the RS 4 offers asymmetric/dynamic torque distribution and a self-locking Torsen centre differential". If previous Quattro systems can vary torque rather than just being 50\50 all the time, how is this new system different?

merc1 · April 2005

The new Quattro setup in the RS4 is designed to give a 60/40 rear/front torque split in normal conditions compared to a the current 50/50 setup. This is supposed to make if feel more like a rwd car in normal conditions.

M

markcincinnati · April 2005

". . .how is this new system different?"

Here goes: "The new quattro system, though changing to the new 40/60 front/rear fixed torque bias for normal dry-road driving, still will retain the quattro designs primary feature: the ability to apportion the optimum amount of torque between the front and rear axles when wheels lose traction.

The ability to apportion a variable amount of drive torque to either axle in reduced-traction conditions is enabled by the Torsen-design center differential, which has been the heart of the all-mechanical quattro system since Audi adopted the technology in 1987."

Quoted from WardsAuto 25 February 2005.

commofficer · April 2005

Just sitting at a computer in Iraq (Yeah, can't wait to leave) and thought I would chime in here. I have driven some of the new generation AWD systems in snow and would agree that they all work basically the same in snow. Unless you have the chance to push them to limits, you probably will not notice a difference. Audi builds a great car but they don't hold up well. Look at what a 10 year old Audi A8 is worth. But, If you are going to lease and it will always be under warranty then it's not a bad option as long as they provide loaners. The Inifinity is good but also loses value too fast. Better reliability then the Audi though. Forget the STS. Sorry but I can't recommend an American made AWD system since I own a 2004 Pacifica and already had the transfer case replaced. These are the same guys who own Jeep and Mercedes and still they can't build a dependable transfer case. GM is not Chrysler but it's just starting to get into the AWD game. Do you really want to be their guinea pig?
I'd have to go with the Lexus GS300 if it was my money and then get a set of winter wheels and tires delivered from the Tirerack or some similar store.

Capt. Phil
North of Baghdad with no snow in sight.

jrock65 · April 2005

Hey cap thanks for your post and your services.

Just one thing, if the G35, FX, and the residuals of the M are any indication, the M35/45 will have great resale values.

lexusguy · April 2005

The residual value of the M35 blows the A6 out of the water. Its ahead of everybody except for BMW and Mercedes... even Lexus cant match it.

ksoman · April 2005

I think there's not much meat in the residual values of almost new cars like the RL, the M. For something like the GS, the 5 & E's of the world, the residuals are based on historical reality. Residuals for the RL & M will most likely change based on how things pan out over the next 2/3 years.

Overall the Infiniti G has done a remarkable turn around in residuals compared to the general past of the brand, both infinity & nissan.

ksso

lexusguy · April 2005

Its the "Ghosn Infiniti" effect. All the post-Ghosn cars have it. I would expect the M to be similar.

prophet · April 2005

Traded my 530i for an 06 M35. After 900 miles I can't stop grinning. Reminds me of the 530i with an intuitive idrive. BMW was a good car but not better any than the M35.

fighterwso · April 2005

More fuel for the fire....

Spoilsport Sedans

commofficer · April 2005

">The M45 in the article is sweet. I haven't seen one in person yet but will take a look when I get home. My buddy has a G35 Coupe and that is a great vehicle. Nissan makes great engines. Infinity has, historically, had low resale but I really hope that you guys are right and they start to become more of a sure bet like Lexus.
On another topic:
I hate to even wonder this (I have English parents) but does anyone out there think that Jaguar has a fighting chance against these new sedans? The S and X type are not competitive in any class and the XJ is really not holding its own even with the new Al body. Quality has just never caught up and if you say "I own a Jag" people look quizzically at you and ask "Aren't there loads of problems with that thing"?
If we lost Jaguar, Saab, Volvo and Audi in the US market, would anyone care? It's more like a Darwinian question but all these makes seem to have lost out and they are being kept in the system through unnatural selection. VW's attempt to gain entry into the luxury sedan market was met the way we all thought it would be met, a swift blow to the head. Did natural selection bring about the iDrive in the BMW or was that forced evolution? Why is it so hard to get the manufacturers to offer a diesel engine in some of these cars now that gas is so expensive? They have the engines already. We see all kinds of vehicles here in Iraq with diesel engines including Ford Ranger pickups. The US could do with some of the better diesel engines in the sedan offerings.
I have lots of time to wonder these things when we have slow days with few US or Coalition wounded.

Later
Capt. Phil

markcincinnati · April 2005

If we lost Jaguar here in Cincinnati, there would only be a few tears. Ditto Saab. Audis and Volvos do, however, seem pretty popular.

I see so few Jaguars and Saabs (especially Jaguars) that it is remarkable to actually see one. I have commented that Jaguar will "pay you" to lease one of their "X" cars currently.

I went to the auto show in February and the Saab display was THE MOST pitiful thing in the whole show.

bartalk3 · April 2005

Capt. Phil,

Saab and Jaguar wouldn't be missed here; their sales are poor and they are big money losers for both GM and Ford. The main function of Jaguar, it seems, is to come in last when the car mags do any multi-car rating of luxury performance vehicles. I think Ford recently said that one model will be retained unchanged for another 4 years, which will make it 10 years old. Ridiculous. Ford has no money.

Volvo is actually doing fairly well as it's acquiring a performance as well as a safety image. They just added a V-8, I beleive, built by, is it Yamaha? Their styling is improving since they began thinking out of the box, so to speak.

On diesels, I think I read that BMW is going to import diesels here in the next couple of years. Diesels will be a hard sell here, thanks mainly to Detroit (mainly GM, I think) that introduced diesels here in the 70s that were smelly, smoky, and problem-plagued. That turned off a generation of American buyers.

xkss · April 2005

Commofficer

The aluminum XJ has been reliable. Jaguar's 4.2 liter V-8 doesn't have the potential timing chain tensioner or nikasil problems of the old 4.0 liter V-8 Car & Driver had a long-term 2004 Jaguar XJR and they picked it up in the summer of 2003, a few months after production started. They had only two problems. The XJR will outperform even the revised 2006 BMW 750i, the Audi A8, the MB S430/S500, and the VW Phaeton.

The XJ was compared with some other luxury sedans recently in a car magazine. They should have tested a Super V8, the flagship XJ, because an S500 was optioned to over $85,000.

You should drive an new XJ before saying it isn't competitive. Check out the "New Aluminum Jaguars" thread.

Also, the next Jaguar XK will use the new XJ's aluminum chassis. It will have to comply with new European pedestrian safety regulations.

Car & Driver's long-term XJR

pat · April 2005

I see you posting in many places that "the aluminum XJ has been reliable". Am I missing something? You say it is new. How does it have a "reliable" track record right out of the gate? And we're talking about an aluminum body, right? How does that address the reliability issues of the innards?

Just curious.

xkss · April 2005

The X-Type will linger on until 2009, but I hope they drop it before that.

The next Jaguar XK will use the new XJ's aluminum chassis which will spread costs. The next Jaguar XK will have to comply with new European pedestrian safety regulations. The 2005 Jaguar Super V8, the flagship XJ, weighs over 800 pounds less than a BMW 760Li.

2004 XJ8 finishes second in comparo

Americans generally don't like diesels.

lexusguy · April 2005

Very interesting points, sir. I actually DO own a Jag, a '00 XKR. The reasons, well, despite the fact that the car is now 8 years old, its still one of the most attractive drop tops on the market. The SC430 to me looks like an Audi TT after a bit too many Big Macs. I really like the SL500, but I'm not a fan of M-B electronics. Also, I cant afford one. Unlike M-B, Jaguars tank right off the lot like most British cars. This XK is my third Jaguar, my first being a '96 XJS. Reliability has improved. The XJ had lots of problems, my '98 XK8 had less problems, and the '00 has had less than that. It has still had its share though. Its not a car I would depend on as a dialy driver. The S and X-type have no chance in their respective segments. The XJ really isnt a bad car. What disappointed me most was the interior materials. The hard plastic on the inside of the door handles felt like a Kia.

jrock65 · April 2005

"For the first time, Audi has outsold BMW and Mercedes-Benz to become the top-selling luxury brand in Europe for a three-month period.

Propelled by hot new A4 and A6 models, Audi was the big winner in the first quarter of 2005  at a time when Mercedes-Benz was suffering quality problems and BMW saw sales depressed while it was going through a model change on its bread-and-butter 3 Series."

---------

Surprising, the A4 and the A6 don't do nearly as well here in the States.

lexusguy · April 2005

As to your other comments, would Jaguar and Saab be missed? Probably not. I've gotten in arguments with Saab fanatics before that Volvo is the only Swedish brand left. "But SAABs are actually built in Sweden!", they cry. "Volvos are made in Belgium". To their first retort, not for long. By 2010, Saab is out of Sweden in terms of production and design. To the second, Volvos are also built in Gothenburg, Sweden. Also, if you want to see what the Swedes themselves perfer, go there. I have, and the ratio of Volvo to Saab was at least 1000 to 1. I saw more American muscle cars in my time in Stockholm than I saw Saabs. You literally cant throw a rock without hitting a Volvo V70 though. Also, once there are "GM" badges on Saabs (brilliant move guys, THAT will get the sales back in line) how Swedish is it, really. The Saab lineup currently consists of an Opel, a Subaru, and two Chevys. Dont worry, as long as the ingnition is on the center console, its a Saab. Yeah, right.

Volvo is in much better shape. They along with Mazda in terms of Ford's "foreign properties" are actually doing reasonably well. Also, unlike Saab, they havent lost their soul. The old S40 was developed with Mitsubishi, and was no great loss. Even though the new one is half Mazda3, there really isnt a better small car platform out there to use. Volvo's engines are their own, and they are better than anything Ford has. The T6 makes 268hp. Even with Jag modified heads, the Duratec cant push past 230 or so. The next S60 is going to use a new platform called P1X, developed by Volvo. Ford made mistake after mistake with Jaguar, but they've handled Mazda and Volvo very well. Instead of gutting them and making them into another Isuzu, Ford is actually using Mazda and Volvo parts in THEIR cars. Volvo's future plans are to increase their volume with a new small car to slot below the S40. Wether its going to work, I dont know, but they are one of the bright spots in PAG.

The problems with diesel here in the states are 1. our diesel contains a lot of sulfur and cant pass emmissions in several states. 2. diesel costs as much as premium. When we get "clean diesel" around '06 or so, the amount of diesel options may increase. Honda is apparently at work on a diesel for the US market.

xkss · April 2005

lexusguy,

about Jaguar

Yeah, it sure is a mistake to make an aluminum luxury car.

Have you noticed how heavy cars are getting today? It hurts handling, mpg, and overall performance. The 2005 Jaguar Super V8 weighs over 800 pounds less than a BMW 760Li. The XJR will outperform the revised BMW 750i.

Have you driven a new Jaguar XJ?

mikestevens · April 2005

A shout out and thanks to Mark, Lexusguy, and Merc1, among the many other posters here--as a rather obsessive lurker on these boards recently (as I try to make what is turning out to be a difficult decision), your insightful comments are greatly appreciated....
As to my thoughts, I test drove an M35X and Audi A6 3.2 today within an hour of each other, and here are my impressions:
If you're into gadgetry, the M35 is where it's at. The audio text capabilities, reverse camera, and DVD-audio were very cool. Nonethless, I had trouble with the Rosewood matte finish and quality of the plastics, and I'm not crazy about the shelf dash. The seats were comfortable, and there was plenty of room in the rear, considerably more than the A6. Bottom line however, is that I thought the Audi had the better interior, with a more luxurious feel and slightly better fit and finish.
As to the ride, the M has noticeably better low end torque (I believe it's about half a second quicker to 60 from what I've read?)-but I was pleasantly surprised by the A6. Based on what I've read, I assumed it would be a slug, but the difference was really pretty marginal. The M had a more throaty engine noise (unless the A6 was in Sport mode) and seemed marginally more tossable on the exit ramps and in lane maneuvres.
I find the exterior of the A6 considerably more attractive- the M35 looks a little too like a generic Japanese sedan for my taste. I do not have a problem with the Audi grille, though I would probably pop for the Euro front plate holder, and take my chances with the law:>)
One last note-the difference in salespeople at each dealership was pretty striking-the Inifiniti salesman really belonged on the Nissan lot-he had no idea how to work the voice recognition, and tried to BS his way through a few questions he couldn't answer, whereas the Audi salesperson was knowledgable and low key.
As you can probably tell from my post, I lack the intricate knowledge and furvor of those that post here with regularity. I did prefer the A6, and this surprised me, based on what I had read in the mags and on this and other boards. I suppose the bottom line is that these are both fine cars, and those of us who are fortunate enough to be able to afford a car in this price range are doubly fortunate to have so many excellent choices. I expect to be test driving the RL in the next week, and perhaps a GS after that (although I currently own a GS430, and am looking for a change).

cstiles · April 2005

Mark--if you want to see an actual Jaguar or Volvo specimen, stop by a (Ford-owned) Hertz #1 Club Gold counter at any major airport, since that is where most of them exist and are available for rental (LOL)! I think I drove my last few S80's, Cross-Countries, or S-Types as rentals on some recent trips.

Jaguar might be able to hang around by remaining a tiny niche player in the US market by appealing to the few that appreciate it's design philosophy, exclusivity, and requirement for deep pockets for non-warranty repairs. However, unless they have a credible entry and mid-level model, it will never be more than a tiny fish in a large pond. For years, they had Ford to prop them up, but I think those days are over.

Same story for Saab. They do have a loyal following in the Northeast U.S., but GM can't afford to be their sugar daddy any longer, so they will be on increasingly thinner ice in the next few years. Their "Saabaru" 9-2X is now selling at $5000+ discounts, and their next big thing is a rebadged Chevy TrailBlazer (think it's called the 9-7X??). Those 2 models pretty much sum up Saab's current and future heartburn. Their upcoming 9-3 "sport combi" is also rather pathetic. Marketing departments have now developed about 10 new names for the word "station wagon."

Volvo has a chance. They have more diversity in their lineup, and they can still play their reputation for safety as their trump card. But they really need a true replacement for the S80, and the S40/S60 line needs a boost although I'm not sure what exactly that would be. The XC90 is selling fairly well, probably to customers who are coming out of Volvo wagons. Volvo also sells powertrains for semi-trucks that help sustain their bottom lines.

Regarding Audi's success in Europe---although they certainly sell luxury models there, they also sell a hell of a lot of non-quattro 4-cylinder or diesel A2 and A3 models that serve as relatively plebian forms of transportation. Audi has a more complete model line from top to bottom than M-B or BMW in Europe, and with the addition of the Touareg-based Q7, their overall lineup will be impressive, especially with Skoda/Seat/Bugatti/VW/Bentley providing them with a deep and interesting bench.

Anybody see the photos of the upcoming M-B Gelaendewagen in AutoWeek? Gone is the spartan, boxy, ready-for-a-safari-or-a-war look, to be replaced by the jellybean impression from the new M and R-class.

markcincinnati · April 2005

I believe that TODAY the Audi has fallen in acquisition cost via lease to within spittin' distance of the M35x. I certainly hope my M decision is not one that I regret. I do like the look of the Audi and the interiors are always at the top of the class.

The Audi advantage 4 years or 50,000 miles make the current Audi a pretty low risk lease. The driving experience of the Audi and M are both very desirable.

My issue my personal challenge has been European vs Japanese. It is difficult to explain if you really have no preference. But, for virtually the majority of my life, I have felt that European cars were better than all others. The current crop of cars from all over, especially the Japanese, has made me rethink this.

The good news is the current crop of cars in this class are all very good to excellent -- I can hardly imagine feeling I had "settled" with any of them.

If money were no object, I would have one Audi A6 and one Infiniti M35x and I would fully evaluate them both.

lexusguy · April 2005

Yes, the XJ is aluminum. We get it. The A8 has been aluminum for quite a long time, its not like Jaguar is breaking new ground or something. When I was refering to Ford's bumblings with Jaguar, I was making reference to the X-type and S-type, not the XJ. If you actually read cstiles post, he said "credible entry and mid-level model". We're not talking about the XJ here. The X-type and S-type simply cant compete in their respective segments. The XJ is a competent car. I've driven an '05 XJ8. Its very nice. Would I trade my LS for one? Not a chance. Being "pretty good" against a '00 design Mercedes, and an '01 design Lexus isnt exactly something to get excited about when your car is brand new though. Both Lexus and Mercedes will have all new full size players for '07 with new engines that will absolutely trounce the Jag, and they'll be back of the pack again.

The rest of the industry moves in 5-6 year cycles now. If its taking you 10 years to get new cars out, your going to lose, plain and simple. Jag simply doesnt have the financial muscle to keep up with BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, and Audi.

merc1 · April 2005

I think more than a few people would miss Audi and Volvo. Jaguar and Saab too, but to a much lesser degree, especially for Saab.

Audi and Volvo in particular have some pretty good cars under their respective lineups, especially Audi. I don't think Audi is in danger of having to leave the U.S. anytime soon. Ditto for Volvo.

Jaguar on the other hand has about 2-3 more years to turn things around otherwise they might be sold off or just shut down. Ford is only going to lose so much money on them before getting fed up. Land Rover should be in the clear sometime next year, and Volvo already makes money. Aston-Martin is in the middle of a turnaround also. Jaguar needs a new X-Type, which imo should be engineered on a new compact rwd platform that could also support that F-Type sports car concept they showed a few years ago. I mean Mercedes, BMW and Audi do it with the SLK, Z4 and TT don't they? Pretty much. Ford has to realize that they have to spend on Jaguar just like they have with the other PAG brands otherwise they're wasting time foolin' with Jaguar any further. The X-Type is dead and the S-Type may as well be as the sales numbers will show as this year progresses. In the past there was room for MB, BMW and the occasional Audi and the even more exclusive Jaguar. Now however in addition to the usual Euro suspects you have Lexus, Infiniti and Acura all heating things up in the lower and middle segments and Jaguar simply can't compete with their current products. I think a new rwd X-Type sedan and a sports car based off the same platform to tackle the SLK/Z4 and a new XJ based S-Type along with the new XK could give Jaguar the product it needs to live.

I know for people who prize Lexus, Acura and Infiniti brands like Jaguar, Audi and Volvo might seem pointless, but they aren't and they imo offer a refreshing alternative to the usual MB/BMW combo and the often boring Lexus/Acura offerings. Infiniti on the other hand seems to be a Japanese brand after my own heart.

M

Luxury Performance Sedans

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles