Luxury Performance Sedans

nvbanker · September 2005

But doesn't the new S have the i-drive substitute in it to eliminate 60 or so of those buttons? Not a good thing, IMO.........

lexusguy · September 2005

Speaking of which, I'm curious to see how the new COMAND interface is reviewed by the press. So far most of the auto press seems to prefer MMI to iDrive, and the Infiniti knob over the Acura RL one, at least in terms of functionality if not looks.

merc1 · October 2005

My problem with the Bentley is that it looks like something Timberland would make.

I do see what you're saying about MT though. There is no way a 5000lb Bentley would win a comparo over a Ferrari in any other publication. Not even the stuffy (but great reading) British mags would do that, or at least I haven't seen it. Then again Bentley is being true to tradition by making "the world's fastest trucks" as one rival company's founder stated long ago.

M

merc1 · October 2005

Speaking of which, I'm curious to see how the new COMAND interface is reviewed by the press.

So far in the European press they're saying that it is much easier to use than Idrive (of course), but they're also saying its much easier to use than Audi's MMi system also. Mercedes still includes buttons for everyday tasks.

M

lexusguy · October 2005

I just saw the new M-B "please like us again" ad. I understand that its the biggest strength they have to use against the competition, but it (imo) came off as a little desperate, especially when the little kids started showing up. Not as bad as the puppy-dog-eyed "who will protect us when the airbags deploy" OnStar\GM ads, but close.

nvbanker · October 2005

Ouch :sick: Sounds like the GM ads from a couple of years ago, when they were admitting they had made crap for 20 years, and were sorry, so please try us once again. Didn't respect that anymore than their former campaigns that said, "we are putting quality on the road" when you could barely get the door on the car to stay shut. :mad:

merc1 · October 2005

I'd have to see that one. Though all car companies are guilty of poor-ads, every single one of them.

M

lexusguy · October 2005

Oh definitely. Toyota's new HSD ad that I've seen several times now makes it seem like if you dont buy a Toyota hybrid, then you personally will be held responsible for killing the earth. Again I understand the idea, they know hybrids from a variety of companies are on the horizon and they want to cement themselves as the hybrid company in consumers minds before that happens. I still think its in bad taste, though.

nvbanker · October 2005

I maintain that hybrids are much ado about nothing. The extra cost for the hybrid more than overrides the $ in fuel savings up to about 200,000 miles. The batteries are very toxic to the environment, and if you wreck your hybrid, or roll it - the batteries can kill you from the weight, or toxic spill. In some accidents, you can short out the car, and that can kill you from the high voltage, and the rescuers won't touch one that is shorted out to get you out.

I'll wait for the diesel.

lexusguy · October 2005

Plus there's the fact that nobody knows how long the batteries will last, and wether at say, 50K miles if they are operating at 90%, 70% or worse of their original efficiency. Mpg from diesel engines generally does not go down as the car ages.

nvbanker · October 2005

Exactly. IMO, it's an experimental technology, and I'm not ready to risk much on it. I don't think it will last, it may at best, be an interim soluton. A 10 year old Prius may be as popular as an Oldsmobile Diesel is.

chuck1959 · October 2005

I think the hybrids are a joke. It was just a way the car manufacters trying to please all the "environimilists" and get them off their backs. In Europe diesels are everywhere and they should be here as well. While in Spain I rented a compact diesel Citroen, it wasn't all that bad. Of course here in American GM has made the consumers gun shy of diesels of the eighties. Because of the crappy way they executed it. I was a victim myself. I had a 98 diesel that blew up. At least I was given the choice of another diesel or a gas 350.

nvbanker · October 2005

I am amazed that Hybrids have gained as much traction as they have. And I'm equally amazed at the prices some folks will pay for one, for the chance to get 40mpg. You need to drive one 200,000 to make it pay for itself. I think it's interesting who has put the hybrids out, and who hasn't.

jjacura · October 2005

Lexus is committed...look at their RX and they will have the GS450h next spring...But is the Tax deduction enough of an incentive to buy one? LexusGuy may have already answered this one...I don't know.

merc1 · October 2005

I think hybrids are here to stay, but they aren't going to totally replace the conventional drivetrain like some people seem to think. There has yet to be a production hybrid that makes me actually want to "drive" one.

M

lexusguy · October 2005

The A4 2.0T TDI that I rented in Italy was quite nice. It wasnt exactly a fireball like the RS4, but I dont think it would be any slower than the gasoline 2.0T.

From what it seems like, everybody that sells a car in north america plans to have a hybrid by around 2010, even VW, M-B, and BMW. Whether they will be as popular then as they are right now remains to be seen. What I really dont understand is why everybody is so crazy to get a Ford Escape hybrid. At least with a car like the Accord hybrid, you can make the "well it is faster" excuse. Same with the RX400h. But the Escape hybrid is quite a bit slower than the regular V6, and still costs a lot more, and is not really all that fuel efficient. Yet people cant wait to buy one.

markcincinnati · October 2005

. . .until or unless Mr. Fusion comes along. The hybrids are not a bad idea, but their drawbacks ($ for one) make no sense to me unless gas jumps to at least $4.50 per gallon in the US.

Even then, clean biodiesel seems to be a powerful alternative -- and from what I can tell is totally renewable.

I just returned from Munich and the cabs I rode in were all diesel and were all German cars (Merc and VW, for instance) -- based on theses "taxis" I would be delighted with such a vehicle as my daily driver. Other an the TDI logos on them it was almost impossible to tell they were anything other than "normal" internal combustion gasoline powered cars.

Bring these things to the western side of the Atlantic for pity's sake.

Now where is that URL for the biodiesel kit you too can use to make your own fuel?

jjacura · October 2005

I checked out the tax deduction on the Lexus and uncle allows a 1 time $2000 deduction. Bear in mind that it is a deduction and not a tax credit so if you are in a 35% tax bracket the net savings is $700. If the demand for these Hybrids isn't there because of the markup then down the line you can negotiate a better price and the deduction is still there. Plus there are State incentives as well depending on where you live.

drtravel · October 2005

Infiniti sold 2351 M's in September

wale_bate1 · October 2005

I believe the hybrids are bandaids. As Mark suggests, when you run all the numbers and factor in long range uncertainties, the ledger doesn't quite balance. Great marketing though, especially for Toyota. I get the drift that there's just a bit less hype in "Hybrid" than "Hemi". ;-]

Bio-diesel does indeed look to have legs, as one alternative. Just wait until we're in the "gas" line behind our local "Mickey D's"!
:surprise:

lexusguy · October 2005

It depends on what you want to get out of your hybrid. On a car like the Escape, I agree, you wont make your money back, and there's no real other reason to get it. If on the other hand, you compare a hybrid to say, an engine upgrade, instead of just "free money" that isnt real, then it makes a little more sense. Suppose, instead of the RX400h, Lexus used the Avalon's 3.5L and made a 280hp RX350, with a $5K premium over the RX330. Would anybody complain? Probably not. The RX400h is the same idea, just different execution, with the bonus of lower emissions and a bit more mpg than the 3.5L would do by itself.

jrock65 · October 2005

Well, the next RX is definitely going to be the RX350 (already trademarked), with engine output probably around 280 hp.

But there's no way they'll price it $5000 over the current RX330 though. Base price will probably go up a couple thousand at the most.

jrock65 · October 2005

September 2005 Sales:

E = 4,544
5 = 4,137
GS = 2,739
M = 2,351
STS = 2,212
RL = 1,552
A6 =

lexusguy · October 2005

Hmm, quite a big drop for GS. I hope this isnt the "curse of the GS" already. Only about 400 cars between it and the M. Unless I'm mistaken, Isnt the STS way down as well? Maybe that means the rental companies have bought their allotment for this year. OOOooo burned!

lexusguy · October 2005

I didnt mean as a replacement for the RX330, I meant as a theoretical step up engine. The difference, for example, between the C280 and C350 is almost exactly 5 grand.

wale_bate1 · October 2005

I'm just not convinced hybrids are anything except a stopgap, LG. It's bandaid or bridge technology, which doesn't make it any less important short term, just means that it isn't the answer. Something more at bio-diesel just seems better; totally renewable and a reduction of gasses as well, AFAIK.

I'm not knocking Toyota with that marketing remark, BTW, as they're in the right place at the right time, but I think people are buying into these things with rose-colored glasses firmly in place, and their ledger books shoved way to the back of the bureau drawer...

hpowders · October 2005

5 series sales up 15.8% year over year. Clearly folks are not listening to the relentless Bangle/iDrive bashing of the auto media.
My 2005 545i is one of the most striking vehicles I have ever seen. The iDrive is so simple to use. I don't know what all the fuss is about.

lexusguy · October 2005

Yeah, I'm not buying one for myself any time soon. What Toyota's "what if every car produced 80% fewer emmisions" commercial fails to mention is if the 17 million new vehicles were all hybrids, thats 17 million highly toxic batteries to dispose of. What is the environmental impact of that?

merc1 · October 2005

It seems that sales are slightly depressed for everyone in Sept. With everything going on in the U.S. right now I'm not surprised.

M

warthog · October 2005

You wrote: "Even then, clean biodiesel seems to be a powerful alternative -- and from what I can tell is totally renewable."

I agree that diesel is an attractive alternative, but how, exactly, is it "totally renewable?"

docnukem · October 2005

Biodiesel is a different animal from fossil-fuel-derived diesel:

http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/biodiesel_basics/default.shtm

Renewable sources are going to have to become huge in the next 20 years to avoid global economic meltdown.

Read some of the horror scenarios about when the world hits peak oil production. Nobody knows when it's going to arrive. A very few believe it will get here in the next few months.

lexusguy · October 2005

"Comparing all brands, in September Mini spent only $17 while Scion spent $109 and Porsche spent $408 per vehicle sold. At the other end of the spectrum, Jaguar spent the most, $8,194, followed by Lincoln at $5,399 and Cadillac at $4,371 per vehicle sold. Looking at incentives expenditures as a percentage of MSRP for each brand, Mitsubishi and Jaguar spent the most, 16.1 percent and 15 percent, respectively, while Mini and Porsche spent the least, 0.1 percent and 0.5 percent, respectively."

Jaguar outspends Lincoln by almost 3 grand?? Ouch. Something is going seriously wrong there. That certainly is not going to help Jag's notoriously bad residual values.

drtravel · October 2005

While we are waiting for Audi to post their numbers (maybe Mark has them), do you have the August Sales numbers for the STS?

Thanks

jrock65 · October 2005

September 2005 Sales:

E = 4,544
5 = 4,137
GS = 2,739
M = 2,351
STS = 2,212
A6 = 1,640
RL = 1,552

August 2005 Sales:

E = 5,011
5 = 4,359
GS = 3,335
STS = 2,818
M = 2,623
RL = 1,721
A6 = 1,509

drtravel · October 2005

Don't forget the better leasing deals. Seems like BMW is actually in the car rental business more than in sales.

drtravel · October 2005

Wow, a two minute turnaround for my request! I'm going to contact Guinness - has to be a record.

March thru September 2005 Sales:

E = 30,216
5 = 29,149
STS = 22,631
GS = 22,313
M = 16,920
A6 = 10,827
RL = 10,663

bdr127 · October 2005

My 2005 545i is one of the most striking vehicles I have ever seen. The iDrive is so simple to use. I don't know what all the fuss is about.

A lot of people are still knocking the iDrive based on their first impressions from the original version in the 2002 7-Series..... The iDrive has improved by leaps and bounds since then. Every year it gets better and easier to navigate through the menus. The most recent versions in the 3, 5, 6, and 7 cars are all much more straight-forward than anything in the past. You can really get to everything you need within 3 clicks. Most of the fussing you hear is based on old prejudices.

freddybb · October 2005

I completely agree with hpowders and bdr127 -- my 2006 530xi looks great, drives even better, and iDrive is easy to use and leads to an attractive uncluttered dash (have you seen the number of buttons in the M and the RL?).

One other excellent feature that my manual transmission 530xi has -- Hill Start Assist. This holds the car for two seconds when you are starting on an up-hill slope -- more than enough time to get your foot onto the accelerator before you start releasing the clutch. Takes ALL the stress out of manual driving, and makes it even more fun!! When I demo this to my buddies they are amazed.

hpowders · October 2005

Well, wouldn't you say that BMW vehicles make the best rental cars?
Full maintenance coverage for the entire lease with very fair residual values. Compare this to Lexus where you pay for the maintenance and the residual is kept artificially low on their leases to keep their monthly payments high.

I compared the GS430 to the 545i about 6 months ago, and the GS430 on a great deal would have cost me $40 more a month plus $1500 more in maintenance over a 3 year lease. So I saved the almost $3000 and got the 545i.
You have to be nuts to buy a BMW in my opinion. It gets too expensive to own once the warranty runs out after 4 years.

hpowders · October 2005

You know freddybb, even one of the auto mags. is having second thoughts about the E60.
Motortrend recently came out with "You were right Chris" in their re-evaluation of the 5 series recently.

I am very happy with my decision to lease the 545i and find my average 20 mpg driving 70% highway, 30% city quite satisfying for a V8.

Good luck with your new 530xi.

tayl0rd · October 2005

... My 2005 545i is one of the most striking vehicles I have ever seen. ...

Yep. Like being struck in the face by a board with nails protruding from the end of it! LOL! :P

j/k

I believe the Bangle style is starting to grow on people. It usually takes a while for a completely redesigned vehicle to be generally accepted; especially when it's a drastic departure from the previous version. You have to admit, the previous 5 was pretty boxy. Adding all these curves threw folks for a loop.

As far as i-Drive, I've been reading that it's nowhere near as bad in the 5 as it is/was in the 7.

markcincinnati · October 2005

I am NOT a chemist or an engineer or a fuel expert. But, here is what I think:

o - biodiesel can be made from CORN OIL

o - corn oil is, after all, made from corn

o - corn, as a crop, is essentially renewable

Therefore, it would seem that we can grow corn, make corn oil, use it to fry stuff (potatoes for example), process the "spent" corn oil into biodiesel and fuel our current technology diesel engines successfully.

I am often wrong, but never uncertain -- and I watched a show on Spike TV where they made 20 gallons of biodiesel and put it into a 2002 Dodge Ram pickemup truck and the thing ran normally and the tail pipe smelled of french fries.

The cost per gallon of this fuel was said to be something like $.70 per gallon.

Renewable, good smelling (perhaps) and relatively cheap.

What's not to like?

markcincinnati · October 2005

I like the looks of the newest BMW X3, X5, 3 series and 6 series. The 7 looks like it has a bustle butt (to me).

The 5 series to this day screams Pontiac to me.

I love to drive a 5 series, don't get me wrong -- I just can't get past the Pontiac face.

Great cars (BMW's) -- I still haven't grown to "appreciate" the Bangle look.

Perhaps this is why the new 3 has really only taken a half step in that direction.

Give me the last model 5 any day.

No offense meant to anyone.

What the heck do I know, I bought one of the new A6's -- some folks think the front end is so bad it ruins the whole thing.

Maybe yes, maybe no -- the A6's profile does appeal to my sense of proportion better than the 5 series. But, that is what makes the world go round -- we all see beauty differently.

We can argue about the look of the car -- what cannot be argued are the facts: BMW's 5 is a very fine car from behind the wheel (especially in 530xi form).

Eye of the beholder. :shades:

bartalk3 · October 2005

According to the current issue (November) of "Automobile" magazine, Lexus will release the GS450h in...March: over 300hp and a 0-60 time under six seconds. $49,000 base price.

That should be interesting. What will they do with the 300 and the 430? Keep them both? Discontinue the 430? What's your guess?

lexusguy · October 2005

I've been wondering what the guy in charge of Lexus engines has been smoking for quite awhile. The Avalon gets 3.5L and 280hp for 30 grand. The IS250 gets less power than the car it replaces. The GS300 has the weakest engine in its class, and is handily beaten, at least in a straight line, by the Avalon. The GS450h will be RWD, have similar power, similar performance, and similar price to the GS430. Makes sense. Wait.. what?

Here's what I would do. Give the Avalon the new 3.0L... or just leave it with the Camry engine. I dont think most Avalon owners are lead foots. Make the base IS the IS300, leave the 2.5 for the countries that had IS200s. Take the G35 head on with IS350 AWD and a MT version. Introduce the GS with a single engine, GS350, with rear or AWD. Some 90% of sales are V6s anyway, nobody, despite what the magazines say, will miss the V8. A year later, follow up with the GS450h, and make it AWD to compete with the A6 4.2, then after the debut of the LS460, introduce a RWD GS460 V8, with a sport suspension and defeatable stability control. Doesnt that make a lot more sense?

bartalk3 · October 2005

Makes a lot more sense than what Lexus is doing. On the other hand, it's hard to argue with success (and Lexus is nothing if not successful). Whatever they do turns to gold. Considering their logic, what engine will they put into the next ES?

The IS 2.5 doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, grossly underpowered. A slow sports car that's beaten at the stoplight by grandma's Buick. Reminds me of the old Toyota Celica, another sporty car with a puny engine.

bw45sport · October 2005

One other excellent feature that my manual transmission 530xi has -- Hill Start Assist. This holds the car for two seconds when you are starting on an up-hill slope -- more than enough time to get your foot onto the accelerator before you start releasing the clutch. Takes ALL the stress out of manual driving, and makes it even more fun!!

Isn't that cheating? I would think that would defeat the "ultimate driving experience". If you want to remove all the stress simply opt for an automatic. It's amazing how well they work.

This message brought to you by a golfer who uses graphite shafts rather than hickory.

jimbres · October 2005

From your lips to God's ear. Too bad that you're not in charge of marketing for Lexus.

quasiactuary · October 2005

"I agree that diesel is an attractive alternative, but how, exactly, is it "totally renewable"?"

The link that was posted on bio-diesel didn't work for me. Bio-diesel's can run on vegetable oil, which is why it is said to be totally renewable.

I heard an interview with Willie Nelson (who has a tour bus that is bio-diesel) who said that regular diesel engines can be converted to bio-diesel. I know he's not exactly an expert on cars, but I think it is true.

lexusguy · October 2005

"..Lexus is nothing if not successful). Whatever they do turns to gold. Considering their logic, what engine will they put into the next ES?"

Not exactly. The ES, RX, and LS are extremely successful, and they've been carrying the rest of the stragglers on their shoulders since the debut of the SC and GS in the early 90s. Those cars did better than the Infiniti J30 sedan and M30 coupe and convertible (anybody remember those?) but not by all that much. When the SC went in to its 7th and 8th model year with no changes, it was selling under 3K cars a year. While the GS was strong out of the gate in '93, it fell on its face in about two years. The exact same thing happened with the '98 version. The IS300 was hardly a smash hit either.

I'm not really sure what the ES will get. Traditionally it has shared engines with the Camry, but nobody seems to know yet whether the Camry will keep its current 3.3L with a bit of a bump in power, or get a detuned version of the Avalon's 3.5. Its a safe bet though that were Camry goes, ES will go.

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