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Methinks we are digressing from the main topic here so I will stop now...
To each his/her own.
I like the looks of some of these LPS cars, some grow on me, some never grow on me and who cares anyhow (unless you can somehow force me to buy an ugly vehicle, then I would care.)
Truth of the matter seems to be that the style and look of these cars is about all they have left to strikingly differentiate themselves from one another.
I drove an STS with the sport package -- and if I'm lyin' I'm dyin' -- it felt like it belonged in with the European and Japanese LPS bunch.
I was pleased with it.
Of course the 530xi still looks like a Pontiac (to me.) But it drives like a BMW.
My point here is to just so stipulate that the style can be debated until we are blue in the face and to just hope that we can not worry about offending each other if we "tell it like it is" (in our opinions) with respect to the "look" of these vehicles.
Of course, it is a fact that mini-vans are all ugly.
Just kidding.
:shades:
Well... I believe that it is the other way around and that Pontiac has had BMW in their sights for many years now. Pontiac has had delusions of being the "BMW of GM" and has copied design cues from them that have been poorly executed and copied, IMO. If I were BMW and could sue them to stop the design infringement, I would
Of course, one can't escape the inevitable similarities such as the twin-kidney grill. Also, those similarities end right there!
As much as I like BMW’s minimal angular styling through the 70s up until now, (with the exception of you know what) I never really cared for their kidney grille. It always reminded me of that lame mustache Hitler wore.
M
M
Now, in somewhat of a reversal, I in no way believe that the materials used by BMW are shoddy or cheap. The leather in my wife's Premium Package/Sport Package X3 (terracotta "Montana" leather) is, as far as I can tell at about 8,000 miles on the od, of very high quality. The 530xi I test drove recently, too, had its seats covered with top grain cowhide, no doubt.
Yet, the school of interior design, IMHO, has Audi folks as the professors at this point in time.
The BMW 7 is a great car, perhaps a better performing car than the A8 (I said "perhaps"), but "I, senator, knew John Kennedy, and you sir are no JFK!"
And he left in a huff!
The "Huff" a short-lived (only one year in production) car brand from the early 1930's, noted mostly for its creator, Edward Huff, who used to take great pleasure in riding through the country side yelling at people to shut up, grow up and wise up.
He died dejected, alone and in poverty in his room at a seedy New York tenement.
:sick:
But having more Porsche vehicles that share platforms with VW or Audis is not a stretch. The relative success of the Cayenne can be used to justify such platform sharing.
Also the billions of dollars that Porsche is investing in VW would be a silly investment without any operational gains for Porsche itself!
LOL...Speaking of Dan Quail, I understand he drives an LS430 :surprise:
Dan Quayle is currently one of the biggest deal makers for the world's largest hedge funds called Cerberus.
I guess being ridiculed has its advantages!
Oops am I off-topic again?
The claim was that the 2005 MY would begin "the big moves" into Premium territory.
The A8L and W12 have moved Audi in the general direction of Premium for a couple of years (but at what price point), yet the A8 is a bit too esoteric and at a price point that makes it less of a "mass market" car regardless of its capabilities and lux content.
The 2005 A6, on the other hand, has moved Audi closer to the cluster -- some would argue they are now in the same Solar System with the broad range of cars that Automobile, Car & Driver, Motor Trend and Road & Track loosely call Luxury Performance Sedans (aka Premium Class).
We may argue the point -- did Audi with the A6 actually move into the Premium Class or did it just make a really good run at it and is still in the [Super] Near-Premium Class or is it simply a Freshman in the class.
I just got the latest round of accolades (conveniently distilled and placed in an expensive brochure) sent to me by Audi of America. To read the stuff that they have been able to amass over the past year it certainly seems like Audi (with the A6 and the A8 'family') are now legitimate (but perhaps "probationary") members of the class.
With great fondness and brand loyalty, I have always said (about Audi) that they were VW's "who knew somebody."
As far as I am concerned that is a compliment.
And, without wishing to start the debate up again, I will one more time say that Consumer Reports opinions mean less than my 3 year old Sheltie's opinions on "Nawsomes" vs. "Bonz." He likes 'em both.
CR has many fans -- I am one of them, but not with respect to their ability to convince me of the merits of a particular car.
Speaking only for myself, cars are NOT an appliance. Cars are just about the most emotional thing I can think of or about, second only to family.
Those folks who rely on CR are welcome to do so and I do not fault them for using CR at all. I simply find, in this case, CR to be an unreliable source for information.
But, it's just my 'pinion. :shades:
First of all, I am not a CR fan at all, EXCEPT I do believe their reliability ratings are somewhat scientifically based. I'm a 25+ year reader of C&D and R&T, and from the perspective of comparing the qualities of BRAND NEW cars, I agree Audi seems to be coming into the ballpark and even knocking a few home runs like the S4. However, those mags generally do not consider owner satisfaction, reliability, resale value in their comparo ratings, but curiously do usually have price dependent and price independent judgements, which have never made sense to me without factoring in all costs of ownership (depreciation, expected maintenance included).
So, I wanted to make sure anyone reading this forum from a position of not having the history of 25+ years of enthusiast knowledge has the benefit of at least asking the questions regarding Audi.
After all of that "indoctrination", I will not consider the Caddy - even the new STS/CTS. Have driven them and will not pay the premium $$'s they are asking until they earn their position in the market.
Some may disagree, but if I'm spending $50K+, it's going to BMW, MB... or even Lexus if all I want is luxury. I really WANT to buy a Caddy or other American LPS car, but the choices and dollars asked are not viable... yet!
"Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how'd you like the play?"
If they fix the inside and chic up the outside, and offer a solid RWD player a tad smaller than the CTS (too big) I might bite. Certainly they appear to be headed in the correct direction where the rubber meets the road...
Regarding the "small things" like switchgear, etc... these little things impart a feel of quality (or lack thereof) and GM feels down market in a big way - as are many American nameplates right now. For STS $$'s, I don't want to feel like the K-Mart parts bin was raided to save money.
That said, improvements are being made and one day... maybe one day...
End of disclaimer.
In 1989 a then "nobody," Michael Moore released a film called "Roger and Me." Anyone remember it? It became "something" over time as it was released and re-released on the format du jour (now DVD, of course.)
Moore's premise is well known and I will not digress into a review of the film except to comment it was entertaining and informative if you recognize that it is at once a documentary -- a well-spun documentary -- and a bit of fiction.
Now Moore wanted, so he said, to show Roger Smith, CEO of GM the results of the layoffs that ostensibly were Smith's handiwork.
Now here is the part where you have to keep everything in context. And add to the context the part that is germane to us here in LPS edmunds.com land. Part of the thread here of late includes a generally undefended notion that GM (Cadillac in particular) has squandered billions and its possible future and to this day cannot build a car at a price that makes most of us take either the CTS or the STS seriously.
N.B.: While @ MSRP, I agree that "who are they kidding with respect to the asking price;" but, reality check, even before the GM employee pricing of late, the STS's (here in Cincinnati at least) were discounted some $7,000 and even V8, loaded SRX's were slashed to $49,999 with super sub-vented leases.
Sorry, again, for the run-on sentence.
So we are all [apparently] mostly in general agreement that the CTS and STS are the most likely suspects within the GM line to compete in what we know as the near premium and premium classes of cars. But, we can't see an STS/AWD commanding or being worth some $63,000+ (well, at least it appears MOST of us cannot fathom those dollars for a Cadillac with its 'less than impressive' quality and fit and finish.)
What Roger & Me didn't do or perhaps couldn't do was explain part and parcel of the milieu that led (in part) to Smith's ascention to the position of GM's CEO.
Saying it's the economy stupid would be right, incomplete and too easy.
"It was the economy stupid. . ."
Smith, or so it most surely seems (in context), was NOT really a "car guy." Smith and those in power before and somewhat after his time were "accountants." The line of cars that all were built on the same platform (remember the Cimarron?) were the product of a car company led by CPA's -- not a right brain anywhere to be found, at the time, amongst those in control of GM.
Remember I said (my opinion, only) that cars are emotional and second emotionally to family (I love my wife because it is logical, right?)
The era, perhaps that peaked (or is that piqued?) during Smith saw the car manifested through the eyes and "soul" of an accountant.
We are where we are (with respect to GM and US car companies in general), in part, due to GM's shift from emotional (passionate) leadership to rational (logical) management.
Moore was not entirely biased, not entirely the left-wing wacko he is often portrayed as today -- it is just that his documentary was incomplete insofar as being a bellwether of where we have come to in American car-dom.
Hopefully, this will not incite those on either the left or the right to enter into discourse that will surely be frowned upon here.
In the context of LPS cars and Cadillac in particular (and with respect to the post I am directly responding to) I thought it might be a relevant line of thinking.
Drive it like you live. :shades:
Ironically, the current auto situation has a lot of things in common with the '70s gas crisis. Detroit is again stuck with a bunch of big, gas guzzling whales, just SUVs this time instead of the big '70s iron. They're still using 2-valve engines, and inefficient four-speed automatics. Trying to get away with 20 year old technology just doesnt work anymore.
Now that I have the Lexus, the first oil change visit was free. They did a nice job: they topped off all the fluids as I would expect, washed the car, rotated the tires, and changed the oil. I asked what it would cost me the next time for the exact same service and was told it would be about $220.
WOW!
Now, I realized maintenance on an LPS would not be cheap. But *what* is a Lexus dealer doing to earn $220 for minor service every 5,000 miles? I can surely get an oil change and tire rotation for much less than 25% of that price elsewhere.
What do the rest of you LPS owners do? I know BMW gives several years of scheduled maintenance free, but I don't think the other companies do. Is there any way Lexus dealer service is worth that money, or should I just plan on going to the Lexus dealer for the big 30,000 mile checkups?
Thanks for any advice.
Everything else is Jiffy Lube or better still a great local mechanic.
I took my LS400 to Jiffy Lube once, and spent $300 at the dealer to fix the damage they did. (This was after warranty though, I'm not sure what Rehal's policy would be if it was still under warranty).
It reminded me of the Edsel.
The above quote is from Edmunds Inside Line.
BMW is selling an image?? I thought I bought my BMW and intend to buy a future BMW based solely on drivetrain/chassis considerations! The HELL with image--I dont need to impress anybody but myself!
The proof that image itself does not sell cars is the Jaguar X. Despite the high image of a Jaguar on the hood most drivers did not want to drive a rebadged European Ford Mondeo. If Ford had provided a Jaguar X with a drivetrain/chassis combo that could beat the specs of the BMW 3 series, I can assure you Mr. Freymann would have a far more humble opinion about BMW Image.
This kind of BMW arrogance provokes a lot of hostility. If you want to observe this hostility in action then go the the new Lexus IS250/350 forum. For every one sentence about the IS there are about 3 sentences on how crappy and unreliable BMW are!
I have had first hand experience with it. My first Audi was a new Fox purchased in '75. At the time, it offered FWD and fuel injection and was one of the few cars that ran on regular leaded fuel and met EPA standards. It had also garnered a high rating from CR, but that was not a factor in my buying decision. I had a foreshadowing of my long term relationship with the car when I picked it up from the dealership and discovered that the horn, gas gauge and windshield wipers did not work. This was after receiving a piece of paper stating that the car had been carefully checked by technician and was certified for delivery! Not even an apology from the salesperson or dealership! Fortunately, I went over the car before signing the final papers so those repairs were done on the dealership's time. The Fox never got over its need for long term bonding with the dealership. I had numerous problems with the car throughout my ownership period (8 years), the worst of which was its love for consuming a quart of oil every 1000 miles. Audi claimed this was normal operation which was reinforced right up through the ranks to the US Audi Corporate folks. Of course, toward the end of my ownership interval, I was reimbursed by VW for the cost of 2 valve jobs to replace valve guide seals. Apparently this was a widespread problem that VW had and never formally acknowledged with the Dasher (Passat) and Audi Fox. It also didn't help that customer focus was a completely foreign concept to Audi dealerships. Their service advisors were the lords and customers the "unwashed" masses. But when the Fox was running, it was a hoot to drive........
In subsequent years, Audi learned a hard lesson about customer focus with the "unintended acceleration" debacle, i.e., it almost cost them the business in the US.
Such owner experiences tend to have long memories in the minds of the buying public (as seen by this posting!). I believe (my opinion) that this is historical baggage that Audi is still working to overcome.
Time warping ahead to 2005...... I was in the market for a AWD luxury sedan. My short list narrowed down to 2 vehicles - Audi A6 & Infiniti M35x. In the end, the Infiniti was the winner from 4 perspectives: better ergonomics, better value for the dollar, better predicted reliability and better dealership customer focus.
Maybe BMW shoud re-design their grilles to look like FDR's chin!
You fool!
:P
I rather drive controversial than boring, but that's just me.
As far as I'm concerned (and that's all that really matters) my new 545i is perfect.
As we say in Bangleland:
iDrive, you condemn, we laugh.(liberally translated from veni, vidi, vici).
To bimmer cars he gave a new twist
Despite all his works
Some thought them as quirks
But shareholders now get the gist.
(or substitute for the last line:
"But shareholders are not at all p****ed")
My work requires shuttling executives (luxury/class). My personal life includes being both a single guy in Los Angeles (style) AND spending significant time in the mountains (awd or stability control).
Also, the vehicle should make me look older/more executive than my age (early 30’s), without looking pretentious.
I will probably finance a certified pre-owned, to leverage a more luxurious vehicle at a more affordable price.
What car do you think would be best vehicle for luxury, value, style, residual, reliability and driving impressions?? Perhaps:
2005 G35 X awd sedan: a bit “boy racer”?
2003 Audi A6 2.5T or 3 quattro: spendy and (supposedly) unreliable?
2003 or 2004 Lexus ES330: uninspiring, and fwd?
2003 or 2004 Acura TL: uninspiring, and fwd?
2003 Jaguar S-Type: pretentious, no awd?
2004 Cadillac CTS: unsophisticated, unreliable, no awd?
2004 Lincoln LS: unophisticated, unreliable, no awd?
2003 BMW 530: expensive, old style, no awd?
2003 or 2004 Volvo S80 2.5 T awd: uninspiring and unreliable?
I am considering keeping my Tacoma truck for the mountains, and using a sedan (such as above) for mostly city driving. Perhaps this would allow for a more affordable FWD (such as an ES330). Otherwise, a truck might smell like mountain gear when I return on Monday and pick up executive clients...however an fwd might be unsafe for my mountain driving.
If I had to choose, I would say A6, BMW 530, G35, ES330 but each has distinct disadvantages.
Thanks for your opinion!