Has Honda's run - run out?

chuck1 · June 2005

"As for the Ridgeline - are ANY midsize pickup trucks selling well?"

Your right....I think all PICKUPS are off. But the key word is pickup. I looked at a Ridgeline, and the sticker was $35,000.00. It seems like a lot of money for a "pickup" that has a small bed and can only tow a maximum of 5,000 pounds.

Time will tell, but I think Honda has made a mistake in marketing. Yea, there are those who say the Ridgeline is a "pickup for those who really don't need a pickup..but would like the look of one". I think this group is relatively small. I think the Ridgeline is overpriced and will need incentives to sell. Let's see what happens!

stickguy · June 2005

the Ridge might be a tweener. Same way that I don't consider a Sporttrak or the Hummer SUT (or whatever that abomination is called) a real pickup. Rather, they are more SUV with an open bed instead of a closed up cargo area.

The Nissan and TOyota are definitely Pickups, athough some of the 4 doors are pretty skimpy on bed length.

Maybe that will help the Ridgee, if it can kinda play in both markets. Something for almost everybody?

Remember, no vehicle can do everything. A long bed F150 4 door is a "real" truck, but makes a lousy everyday family car! And the Ridgeline can certianly handle some bags of mulch and a small tree from HD.

gee35coupe · June 2005

$35k for the first truck. They gotta be on crack.

nippononly · June 2005

may be the Converse Chucks of the line, but it sure gives you a new perspective on the amont of Hyundai you can get for the same money. Honda should get out of this price range altogether, which I suppose they will anyway with the '06 Civic, since the Fit won't be far behind.

chuck1 · June 2005

Well,
Honda is not the king is used to be. One can only surmise there are a lot more choices out there. And people are chosing others over Honda. Of course look at the Accord, no styling risks taken there.......

ateixeira · June 2005

Best car commerical ever. In any market. Simply brilliant.

What I hated about it was that it kept reminding me that the US doens't get a TSX wagon!

"Grrr" seems targeted at my toddler. :-) Honda seems to have backed off from its plan to enter the US market with its diesels - too bad.

-juice

davem2001 · June 2005

They are on the Edmunds home page now.....

Well.... I guess it's an improvement, BUT, my complaint about the Accord's styling has always been the upside down HEADLIGHTS not the taillights. They "fixed" the wrong end of the car for me! LOL!

varmint · June 2005

"The sedan has a Volvo V40 flavor to it (which I don't view as a bad thing)."

S40. But, yeah, I had the same thought. The greenhouse is just a bit large, and the bulge at the shoulder line is very Volvo-esque.

I think the (extremely) raked windshield will kill the similarities in the profile, but from a rear 3/4 view, the Civic sedan does look like the S40.

Looking at YTD sales for compact/mid-size trucks:
Dakota + 2,000 units
Ranger - 24,000 units
Colorado + 16,000 units (was it on sale early last year?)
Frontier + 1,000 units
Tacoma - 3,000 units

And, just for an odd little coincidence... Avalanche sales are down 11,000 units, which happens to be about the same number of Ridgelines sold.

chuck1 · June 2005

And, just for an odd little coincidence..

That's all it is....a coincidence!

ateixeira · June 2005

Ranger is old so that makes sense, but I'm surprised about the Tacoma. It seems to be much improved and sales are down?

-juice

varmint · June 2005

Chuck - That's what I said, and all that I meant by it.

Juice - Yeah, the Ranger is understandable. It's very old and about to be redesigned. Also, it's not offered as a crew cab, which is becoming a more popular configuration (even with small trucks). Instead of offering a crew cab Ranger, Ford sells the SportTrac.

AIC Autosite doesn't break out SportTrac sales. I think they're reported in the Explorer total on that site.

Regarding the Tacoma, I think Toyota may have a problem with the Tundra. They're offering pretty good incentives on the bigger brother right now (sales are up). It might be stealing some buyers from the smaller rig.

seminole_kev · June 2005

I also wonder about availability of the new Tacoma affecting sales. When I purchased mine in early February, they were just starting to hit the lots. Maybe they lost basically a month or so of sales due to switching over to new production? (I honestly don't know though)

ateixeira · June 2005

Maybe supply hasn't fully ramped up yet.

-juice

nippononly · June 2005

an article very recently in one of the car mags where they compared the Tacoma crew cab to several of its peers. I think it ended up midpack in their ratings, but what really caught my eye was their comparison of Tacoma crew cab specs to Tundra crew cab specs. Tacoma grew so much last year it is now within a couple of inches of the Tundra in most measurements.

And the Tundra is an old model that Toyota is running cash back on almost continuously now. And Tundra has an available V-8. You can get the two for almost the same price, so unless you are in love with the Taco's new composite bed, you might seriously consider the Tundra instead once you got to the dealer's lot. I went and looked, and to eyeball these two side by side, you would think they were virtually identical in size.

andre1969 · June 2005

was on sale early last year, but wasn't really widely available yet. I remember seeing one on the streets on Christmas Day, 2003, so it was on the market for all of 2004. However, it seems like nowadays when a new vehicle launches, it trickles onto the scene and builds up sales over time, rather than having a massive sales surge all at once.

One reason the Tundra and Tacoma might seem so close together in size is that the Tundra, while they might call it a full-sized truck, feels like it uses the seats out of a compact truck. They're not all that wide or deep, and sit low to the floor. There's really not a lot of room in there, and even if the published dimensions seem close to other full-sized trucks, I can tell a definite difference.

Also, the seat on the Tacoma actually feels like it goes back FURTHER than on the Tundra! It'll be interesting to see if the redesigned Tundra is much bigger than the current model. Also, will Toyota be coming out with an engine bigger than the 4.7? While the 4.7 does stand up favorably to the smaller V-8 offerings from GM, Ford, and Mopar, when it comes to bigger engines like the Hemi, GM's 5.3/6.0, Ford's 5.4, and Nissan's 5.6, it just doesn't have a chance.

nippononly · June 2005

the next Tundra will be every inch of an F-150, supposedly. So, much bigger. And with a new 5.4L engine - no more base V-6s after that!

So, has Honda's run, run out? LOL

I want the new Civic here right now!

davem2001 · June 2005

---------------------YTD 2005 YTD 2004
Toyota Camry 178,890 176,022
Toyota Corolla 147,146 139,669
Honda Accord 138,376 175,788

This time last year, the Accord and Camry were neck and neck, the Accord was only behind by 234 sales....
One year later, the Camry is ahead by over 40,000 sales and the Corolla has knocked the Accord out of the #2 spot.

Why the dramatic change? That's a huge swing in 12 months. I can't understand it.

ateixeira · June 2005

I wonder how long Honda will hold out. Toyota also sells more cars to fleets - but that doesn't exlpain the dramatic drop in Accord sales.

-juice

davem2001 · June 2005

Yeah, it's sort of a mystery to me.....It's like the bottom just dropped out of Accord sales in the past 12 months.

Plus, the Camry is actually the "fresher" of the 2...the Camry has been around 1 year longer, so it's re-do is going to hit the market first.

stevedebi · June 2005

"Yeah, it's sort of a mystery to me.....It's like the bottom just dropped out of Accord sales in the past 12 months.

Plus, the Camry is actually the "fresher" of the 2...the Camry has been around 1 year longer, so it's re-do is going to hit the market first."

No mystery to me, I hate the styling of the new Accord. It is a bit too far out for the mainstream buyer that is the target audience of the Accord.

carlisimo · June 2005

I agree that it's ugly, but that didn't stop it until this year. The sudden change is the weird thing.

The new Civic sedan is underwhelming. Follows the Corolla too much. But they're taking a gamble with off-center mounted gauges (I think) like the xB. The suspension isn't really changing, so it still won't be the tuner's delight it used to be. I hope what's on the inside holds a few surprises.

varmint · June 2005

The cars haven't changed. The market hasn't changed. The reputations for each brand have not changed.

IMO, that leaves incentives and/or fleet sales.

stickguy · June 2005

If Honda puts center mount gauges (like the Quest and Ion) in the Civic, you can put a bullet into Honda right now. THat would be a dismal failure and a huge mistake.

Not that I really have an opinion about this of course!

If nothing else, it would eliminate any chance that I would buy one!

Also, to me, the only part of the Accord that was unattractive was the rump. The '06 refresh fixes that problem at least. The front and sides always looked fine to me, and the interior was great.

Frankly, the Camry is much uglier (or at least no better looking) overall than the Accord, except for the tail which is bland as opposed to goofy. And the Camry interior is no where near as nice.

Since Honda has a similar reputation to Toyota (quality/resale), only thing that makes sense is price, or the other gainers (Hyundai/Nissan/etc.) are taking their poind of flesh out of the Honda instead of the toyota. Or both, but Toyota was more aggressive about using rebates and fleet to get the Camry to stay even, instead of dropping like the Accord.

Anyway, they do need the redo on the Accord and the new Civic like yesterday.

davem2001 · June 2005

No mystery to me, I hate the styling of the new Accord. It is a bit too far out for the mainstream buyer that is the target audience of the Accord.

But that doesn't explain why sales dropped by 40,000 units from YTD 2004. The YTD 2004 numbers are the new body style. If sales crashed from 2003 to 2004, then the styling would be easier to blame.....

I do agree, I don't like the styling of the Accord, but that doesn't totally explain why sales are down so sharply just in the last 12 months

ateixeira · June 2005

Style can hurt you, though, if it's a trendy look it will fade, while timeless/conservative designs hold steady.

Bad news is if anything this will only make Honda even more gun shy about straying from the middle of the mainstream next time.

-juice

davem2001 · June 2005

Ironically, I'm the opposite - I could live with the sedan's rear end (although I do prefer the coupe, and I think the '06 rear is an improvement). But, it's the front that I don't like. I've said above in this thread, I'm not a big fan of having the turnsignals ABOVE the headlights. It ruins the "face" of the car, IMO... The turn signals should always be below or maybe beside the headlights. Just my pet peeve...

explorerx4 · June 2005

i'm confused. isn't the tundra a toyota not a honda?

navigator89 · June 2005

Yes, the Tundra is a Toyota truck, along with the Tacoma. Honda's only truck is the midsize Ridgeline.

Although you're right post 5094 doesnt make sense. If the new Toyota Tundra will be every inch an F-150, how does that relate to Honda's run running out? It should be - Is Toyota's run running out? Well, the company at hand is Honda, but anyway we know the answer to that - Toyota's run will probably never run out.

ateixeira · June 2005

We were talking about the Ridgeline's competitors, and got a little side-tracked. No biggie, as what happens to the Tundra certainly does have at least an indirect affect on the Ridge.

-juice

geo9 · June 2005

Some argue its a truck , some a crossover of all things.......................

With a v-6 engine and a troublesome transmission I can see this "truck" will go the way of the subie baha.......................

Lets not forget the PRICE ! Pretty $pendy for what you get. A Chevy Avalanche for a lot less $$$ is a better choice.

Not to mention the probems with body construction , water leaks and wind noise issues posted here at Edmunds and other forums among other things....................

The inventory at my local dealers are mounting.............

I don't think the honda faithful are gonna save this one................... :lemon:

grbeck · June 2005

varmint: S40. But, yeah, I had the same thought. The greenhouse is just a bit large, and the bulge at the shoulder line is very Volvo-esque.

My mistake! Judging from the new spy photos, the shoulders are prominent on the sedan, which gives it a more substantial look. This car definitely looks as though it is more upscale than the current model.

As for the dashboard - I'm not seeing a center-mounted instrument pod. It looks as though the instrument pod is before the driver in the shot taken from slightly above the sedan. The instrument does have a "bi-level" look to it - almost as though there are two rows of instruments. Sort of an updated version of the 1974-76 Cadillac DeVille and Eldorado instrument panel, where the speedometer was located right behind the steering wheel, and the fuel gauge and warning lights were contained in a strip that bisected the upper level of the dashboard.

Regarding the drop-off in Accord sales - I'd say it stems from Honda's refusal to pay the incentive game. Plus, the competition is getting better. At one time, Honda could have remained above the fray, but the competition has improved so much that buyers aren't going to turn a blind eye to what other manufacturers are selling, especially when they are throwing around incentives like confetti.

grbeck · June 2005

Well, if early teething troubles are a forecast of a vehicle's long-term success, then the current Silverado and Sierra should have flopped, too. I seem to recall many complaints (on this board and others) about vibrations and shoddy workmanship on the current generation of GM pickups when they debuted. Somehow, they survived.

geo9 · July 2005

YUP...........GM DID have some teething problems in 1999. But I guess thats
ancient history.........Lets Talk TODAY ! Remember these OLD models Silverado/Sierra) still outsell every other fullsizer out there..............

Seems GMs launches of the CTS, SRX. LaCrosse,Malibu, G-6 have went quite well..............

Seems superior honda can't do that huh?............NO excuses please....... :lemon:

rsholland · July 2005

So what you're saying is:

Teething problems in GM vehicles = success.
Teething problems in Honda vehicles = failure.

Or that GM has the capability to solve their teething problems, but Honda doesn't?

:confuse:

Bob

anonymousposts · July 2005

have been two people over on the CCB forum who have had their GTO's bought back by GM. A co-worker has a Malibu that has had a couple of recalls, a couple of problems, and horrendous resale. We had a 2000 Silverado and it was the biggest piece of junk we have owned. I would have felt better taking a 200,000 mile Accord across country. We all know that GM is having their share of problems.

seminole_kev · July 2005

I'm having trouble telling if he is for real, or if he is doing an imitation of someone else?

stickguy · July 2005

although GM might have finally hit on a solution for their quality woes. Keep the same model in porduction for 7+ years, and eventually you might work the bugs out.

anythngbutgm · July 2005

Um, not sure where the basis for that came from... It's a new model and there is no data to support your claim. I guess you must be referring to the issues that happened what 7 years ago??? I have one, never had an issue, never worried about it being troublesome. 11 other people I know are just as satisfied and they have WAY more milage than what I have on mine. But ever since 99 the garbage motors pickups have been perfect???

Don't think so.

"Seems GMs launches of the CTS, SRX. LaCrosse,Malibu, G-6 have went quite well.............."

Maybe because not many people wanted the damned things in the first place? Little sales = little problems revealed. Other than the CTS, the others have landed with a solid THUD in the market place. Not until the real market value of these clunkers was revealed through with the "You pay what we pay" has the sales actually picked up. We'll see what reputation these things hold in 3 years when the warranty period is up. Not expecting the stallar reputation you may be touting that's for sure. Sounds like a comment cooked up by a GM lover to take the focus off the real failure in the market if you ask me.

How's that Return of GM's might going?

rsholland · July 2005

I'm having trouble telling if he is for real, or if he is doing an imitation of someone else?

Yeah, I noticed that too. Sounds like the old poster "Boomer." Remember him?

Bob

ateixeira · July 2005

GM has to give them away to boost sales, but the G6 launch was a flop even with the Oprah publicity. So were the others minus the CTS.

And before we call this short-term boost a success, let's see if they make a profit or loss after these heavy-duty incentives.

-juice

nippononly · July 2005

there is something to be said for actually selling vehicles at a profit, which is what Honda has to do since it doesn't have a finance arm selling mortgages to make up for its losses on cars.

davem2001 · July 2005

As somewhat of a Honda loyalist, I would hope Honda execs are more concerned about a 40,000 YTD sales drop of just the Accord alone than some of you guys above. Reminds me of the end of the movie "Animal House" where the ROTC guy keeps yelling "All is well" in the middle of the riot.

geo9 · July 2005

Is well documented in several forums here at Edmunds. Everone seems to
ignore those posts tho........................

I only know of 1 posters GTO being bought back because of cradle and firewall
problems over at the CCB forum........... He seems quite pleased with his
new one tho...........

I do feel sorry for the poster in AK. that has had 2 troublesome titans.......

But yet again these folks actually BOUGHT a NEW vehicle................
Their REAL WORLD experiences are worth reading...........
Not posts about someones OLD hooptie ride....................

I see new posts today over at Rigeline problems and solutions tho...........
Sad reading.............................

rsholland · July 2005

Is well documented in several forums here at Edmunds. Everone seems to
ignore those posts tho........................

As you're so fond of saying: "That's old news." This issue has long since been corrected. It's a "non-issue" with new Hondas.

Bob

ateixeira · July 2005

Let's stop feeding the troll and he'll go away.

-juice

geo9 · July 2005

JUICE.......I read the GTO vs the subie sti thread also............quite comical..................Your comments are something as a NON owner are noted
also.............So would YOU be a troll?

And yes the poor souls with the bad honda trannies have been chased off those
threads here as liars and also trolls so no more posts from them.................

But yet again the problem posts on the ridgeline are heating up also...........

Funny tho..........How come the NON buyers of any NEW vehicle inhabit the
GMs problems thread and MANY others yet are not called trolls? ..................... :confuse:

rsholland · July 2005

A "troll" is someone who goes out of their way to make fun of, insult, and/or provoke fights (aka "baiting"). It ranges from sarcasm to in-your-face confrontation. This description fits you to a "T."

There's a big difference between "debating" and "trolling," and it's a difference that you have never learned.

Bob

nippononly · July 2005

:-P

J/K. We have many avid fans of one particular brand or company here at Edmunds, he is far from being alone in that regard.

A 40K sales drop year over year on an Accord that didn't change one whit except to now have more standard safety equipment (side airbags and curtain airbags) is very bad news. No two ways around that. There was also no debut of any midsize sedan in that time that I can think of, except the Legacy. Could it be that 40K Accord buyers in the last 12 months bought Legacys instead? Don't think so - Legacy sales don't rise to that level.

What will happen now that the brand new Sonata is arriving, the brand new Camry arrives in eight months, and the brand new Fusion arrives in the fall? Will we be sitting here a year from now talking about an additional 80K drop in Accord sales? If so, that will put it behind the Altima in sales for the first time ever.

I don't think some new taillights will make all that much difference in this scenario.

davem2001 · July 2005

Yeah, it really is puzzling to me. I could see, if sales dropped sharply right when the new body style came out - if we were comparing MY 2002 to MY 2003.

But, it's strange. Accord and Camry sales were neck and neck, within 250 units in 2004.

12 months later, the Camry sales are up, Accord sales are waaay down and there is a 40,000 units gap..... What happened? Neither car has been re-designed. Both still cost roughly the same.... I dunno....

And, yes, absolutely, the new '06 Sonata, '07 Camry and even the new Fusion don't make things any easier for Honda.

davem2001 · July 2005

I went over to the new car pricing section of Edmunds....

An Accord LX 4 cyl, auto with no options has a TMV of $19,484

A Camry LE 4 cyl, auto with no options has a TMV of $19,039

I'm not even sure what comes standard equipment on each, so that might not be a total "apples to apples" comparison... But even if it is, I don't think a $400 price difference adds up to 40,000 extra sales?

The plot thickens.....

Has Honda's run - run out?

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