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"I do not believe the concept of the bladder bag expanding is a valid argument for the gas mileage differentials. The volume coefficient of thermal expansion (at most) for a rubber is approximately "
I'm not sure Thermal Expansion is the issue. I suspect Elasticity has more to do with it. The bag collapses as the fuel is used. It inflates as you fill it back up. It's basically a balooon filled with fuel. If it's cold it can't inflate as fully. Believe me, cold has a large impact on Elasticity.
--Yeah, I ditto what railroadjames and tempusvn said. I own a 2004 Prius and I know that 2 gallon fill differentials as a function of temperature are quite common. The discrepency noted by Jebster is more likely the result of the "shrinkage factor" (relating to fluid volume) and subsequently not knowing exactly how much gas has been burned, than an inaccurate monitor. With that said, I probably should have been a bit more careful in my wording. Should have referred to the ability of the bag to expand (i.e., elasticity).
Only a hybrid owner appreciates the reason behind our madness. I live near Chicago where frugal driving is unheard of (it just takes patience). Something Chitown drivers totally lack. They don't seem to mind 2 buck gas and 11 miles per gallon economy. Guess it just takes more time than they have to spare. I too have taken "hybrid economy driving #101" like you and can enjoy the fruits of it all. I often find many oppertunities to crawl off using only electric mode when no one is behind but feel rushed by the "get out of my way" guy/or gal that only seems to know full throttle and slamming brake stops. Last week a Hummer was tail-gating me and in frustration sped around me just in time to slid thru a stop sign with a local cop just licking his lips in hot persuit. I smiled.
sometimes the traffic lights aggravate the situation. leaving my street, a side street onto a state highway, there is just about no way to make the next light. i did make it a tme or two in my mustang gt, but it really isn't worth it. after that, by timing the lights i can make through the next 3 lights to the highway(about 4 miles away). lights 1 and 2 require you to drive a bit slow. to get through light 3 you need to speed up. you don't need a hybrid to time the lights, as long as you know what the timing is.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
I find it annoying that people don't rush through the light. You may make the yellow, but I will be stuck at the red. Have some consideration for the people behind you. If you pace your self right, you can have green light all the way, but going at 5 mph is way too slow for non slow jam conditions.
"5 mph is way too slow for non slow jam conditions"
You're right, the hypermilers need to be courteous as well, but even that has limits.
For example, when a vacant freeway has 5 other lanes to choose from and someone slides up behind me in the far right lane, I'll pay no mind at all.
Let them flash lights and be obnoxious.
My attitude is alot different if I have a "captive audience" on a single lane road.
My route is almost always the same and I know where all the places are to let folks in a hurry go by if necessary with minimum MPG damage.
We know that some people just have to tailgate, no matter how fast you are going. I used to do that too.
Last month I saw a kid driving an old Bronco miss judge a turn and slam a curb, separating the tires & bending his wheels. He mowed over a fire plug and carved up someone's lawn.
Why? He was protesting because I wasn't tailgating the next guy.
All I could do is look with stunned amazement as this unfolded and mumble "gee, what an idiot!"
Personally, at busy intersections I'll forsake some mpg to keep it all flowing, but I'm not going to burn off excessive fuel to do it. When beginning from a light I won't tailgate like every one else, but slowly set up a traffic buffer.
Any police officer worth his pension will tell you that someone speeding up to rush through a YELLOW light is usually exceeding the speed limit already by 15mph and should have slowed down and stopped in the first place. Of course if you check accident statistics they're full of those light runners that are least of all concerned about fuel economy.
Culliganman(Lt. runners are cheaters of courtesy & high risks)
P.S. Getting back to Hybrids and good milage..The best efforts tend to rub the "OTHERS" the wrong way because WE have come to know that there's a better way. The guy in the HUMMER could care less about his milage.
I find it annoying that people don't rush through the light. You may make the yellow, but I will be stuck at the red. Have some consideration for the people behind you. If you pace your self right, you can have green light all the way, but going at 5 mph is way too slow for non slow jam conditions.
--Anytime you expect people to "rush" through a yellow light you're asking for trouble. The car ahead of you that you're trying to piggyback through the intersection may suddenly decide to hit the brakes, leaving you eating his bumper.
--Who goes 5 mph through a clear intersection anyway (unless you're talking about a pedestrian)? I can see this being annoying if it happened all the time, but I can't imagine it would happen so frequently that one would be annoyed by it.
OK guys - the "light to light dash" is away from our topic. I'm sure I can find you great discussions to post the rules of the road, driving, inconsiderate drivers, etc. but this discussion isn't it.
Let's get back to Hybrid Gas Mileage: Good? Bad? As Expected?
Remember - we also have a discussion on Optimizing Mileage in the Hybrid Forum if you need it.
Had an '89 CRX that usually got 50+ MPG on mostly Iowa county blacktops. I'm all for conservation and my point is that it can be done without going hybrid. I follow Click & Clack, the Tappett Bros. mantra of easy starts and gentle stops. BTW 2 sisters-in-law have just purchased used Prii, and that's why I'm here.
A friend of mine had an 80's Civic that got about 50MPG
Someone here earlier pointed out that it's because they were a much lighter car than today. Stripped of extras and underpowered by today's small car requirements.
My HCH has a 1.3L engine, which is pretty small.
The electronics make up the deficiency.
Oh yes...sorry to be off topic...so...
Last night (3AM) I drove home with a 30MPH gusty cross wind, 18 degrees and still got 54.8MPG over 45 miles.
This afternoon it turned into a slam-on gusty head wind, about 40 degrees and I still did 58.7MPG over the same distance.
My drive is about half freeway with long, drawn out sometimes very steep hills, the other half hilly country roads.
One hint:
To get extra MPG out of a hybrid car, keep the instant MPG indicator above your current Average.
--Had my Prius for just over a year now, with my long-term average at 50.1 mpg with 11, 850 miles under the belt.
--I believe it would have been higher if not for the fact that almost half that mileage was the result of two long highway trips (i.e., running at ± 50 mpg hwy), and short work commutes that didn't allow the engine to warm up to its full potential.
I too found the CRX to be a formidable thrift car BUT... It simply is short in comparison to the PRIUS. 2-seater CRX(cramped) while the Prius delivers plenty of room in a 4 Dr. Performance is quite good in the Prius even with a full load. The CRX on the other hand had limitations both in load and performance. The Prius simply gives the best overall in all catagories (room, comfort, & economy). It should be interesting to see where the technology takes us now that we see what a hybrid can do. I have 13K on my 04 PRIUS and seem to average 44-49 mpg's and about 455 miles to a tank.
"Have some consideration for the people behind you. If you pace your self right, you can have green light all the way, but going at 5 mph is way too slow for non slow jam conditions."
.
If the light 50 feet in front of me is red, why do I need to move faster than 5 mph????? It makes no sense to speed up to 30, and then lock-up the tires to stop.
And just to be on-topic: I burned 0.1L/100km in that stretch (rev to 5 mph, and then engine off) which is ~2000 miles per gallon. Coasting to a red light at 5 mph, instead of burning rubber, saves fuel & money.
It's all about "gentler" driving. If you can drive more smoothly, you will waste less energy. When you go around hard-charging, hard-braking, you are wasting energy in the form of heat...through your tires and your brakes.
I can see being able to calculate hwy mileage, if you go on a long trip. But the rest of the time, people are doing combined. I guess if you never got on an on-ramp, but how many people does that apply to?
...the question in the topic is aimed at the drivers of hybrids by default. In the interest of cleaning up the title on the topic list, AND in the interest of clearing up the question about whether one can calculate "city mileage", I'm going to rename to topic.
Is your hybrid living up the EPA numbers? Here's a place to report what your real world mileage numbers look like, both highway and city (or combined).
I heard thru a fellow Ham that CNN had a report on disgruntle Hybrid owners? Around town driving was poorer than advertised . Anyone catch the report and which models/make were they? Real world drivers/non car buffs always tell like it is. TNX Paul N8BUU
I think people are annoyed that they're not getting 60 MPG, but instead are averaging mid 40's. Anyone who bought a hybrid expecially the Prius and expecting 60 should have their head examined. Ain't no way it is gonna happen as the EPA tests are not even close to real world driving. Caveat emptor.
On the other hand, when you listen to Toyota ads (and also tv shows like West Wing), you hear "The Prius gets 60 mpg." No mention of the city qualifier.
Don't believe everything you read. I guess the early buyers are the ones that are annoyed. People buying now should have done their research. I have no pity for them.
I own a 2004 Honda Civic Hybrid with about 11,000 miles under my belt.
My average MPG has gone up from 38.4 in my first tank in July 2004 to my last six tanks averaging 52.4 MPG. :shades:
So anyone willing to use the available gauges to "play the high mileage game" can achieve EPA or greater. If you are not willing to adopt a more economical driving style, then I suggest keeping your SUV.
No, it is no surprise when high profile shows and media claim something that is just not true. Less than 10% of those people that are reporting their Prius II mileage are reaching or exceeding the combined 55 MPG EPA estimate. The only hybrid that is performing up to the EPA estimates is the Insight. The HCH is close. I'm not saying that an average of 48 MPG is not good, it is very good. I would think if Toyota was straight forward in their advertising that no one would have reason to complain.
"The trials found a BMW Z-4 gets 14.5 miles per gallon, versus the EPA's 21 mpg city and 29 mpg highway estimates. A Chrysler PT Cruiser averaged 17.5 mpg, compared with the EPA's 21 mpg city and 29 mpg highway assessments. A Dodge Neon averaged 24 mpg, versus the EPA's 27 mpg city and 33 mpg highway estimates."
Further to your comment, it is against the law for Toyota to mention anything contrary to the EPA numbers. Once again, people love to jump on the wagon and blame the manufacturer for the stupidity of our government.
There is no "misleading" being done of anyone, anywhere, anytime.
I think you are missing the point. The person that buys a BMW Z4 is not all that worried about gas mileage. He wants fast a sporty car. What ever gas it burns is just part of the cost of having that sporty vehicle. A person that buys a Hummer is not worried about mileage. They want the off-road ability that vehicle affords. If it does not perform off road as expected they are going to be upset. The major reason the Prius exists is Good gas mileage. If it does not do what it was expected to do the driver feels cheated, and rightly so. Toyota does not have to play up the 60 MPG in their advertising. They know that the vehicle will not live up to the EPA flawed estimate. They could just say it gets great mileage and be done with it. The only place they have to post that EPA estimate is on the window sticker. Your assertion is that it is OK to spread misinformation if it comes from the US Government.
No, what I am saying is that ALL CARMAKERS have a legal obligation to report the EPA test mileage results on the window sticker, and they have every right to advertise that in efforts to sell the cars, as has been the case since EPA test Number One 40+ years ago.
Flawed test or not, the Prius REALLY DID achieve 60 MPG, and under certain driving scenarios, even better than that is possible. One ( in my opinion quite disturbed ) Prius owner even got 85 MPG on a 900+ mile trip.
And since the Prius REALLY IS capable of 60 MPG, how is Toyota "misleading" anyone by using that in their advertising?
The truth is that until the EPA test is fixed, if you think Toyota is misleading anyone, that translates that ALL the carmakers are "misleading" consumers.
I frequent a lot of forums, and we very seldom if ever hear about anyone upset about their Hybrid MPG, because even drivers who refuse to play ANY of the games still get AT LEAST the low 40s. That's pretty decent, regardless....
The "disgruntled hybrid owner" seems to be a "newsworthy item" for some reporters, and the few cases nationwide have been reported because it makes for an intruguing story in today's world of trash news. :mad:
There is NEVER a report on the THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of HAPPY hybrid owners, is there? What kind of story would THAT be???
60MPG average for last summer, 58MPG average for last winter, last 3 tanks have been over 60, the most recent one 62 point something. Miles driven/gallons used method. 750+ miles on 12 gallons of gas well exceeds my expectations. Working for that +65MPG tank hopefully this summer. It's been like this for the last 38,000 miles and never had a car that was so much fun.
Very satisfied with my hybrid MPG.. :-) 2004 HCH CVT
** A person that buys a Hummer is not worried about mileage. ** Then how come I hear on the Jim Rome show in the H3 ads that it gets "up to 20 mpg"? Do you think some H3 owners will be pissed because they thought they were getting that great off road (although .00001% ever see anything resembling 'off road') performance, coupled with that great gas mileage?
Can't speak for anyone else, but when I hear a phrase like "gets UP TO 20mpg" or "prices STARTING AT $15,900" I'm not really expecting to see anything like those numbers in real life. I have a whole rant about advertising in general, but this isn't the place for it
I just bought a prius last thursday and filled up for the first time today. Using the mileage/gallons (436 / 7.98), I was pretty pleased with the results. Driving was about 55/45 city over highway. After 30 miles (mostly highway) on this tank, the computer is estimating almost 58 mpg. The computer under-estimated the first tank of gas.
Comments
I'm not sure Thermal Expansion is the issue. I suspect Elasticity has more to do with it. The bag collapses as the fuel is used. It inflates as you fill it back up. It's basically a balooon filled with fuel. If it's cold it can't inflate as fully. Believe me, cold has a large impact on Elasticity.
And, the bladder isn't rubber.
Culliganman (haste makes waste) how true!!
___You are on your way to becoming a hypermiler if you like it or not ;-)
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
You're right, the hypermilers need to be courteous as well, but even that has limits.
For example, when a vacant freeway has 5 other lanes to choose from and someone slides up behind me in the far right lane, I'll pay no mind at all.
Let them flash lights and be obnoxious.
My attitude is alot different if I have a "captive audience" on a single lane road.
My route is almost always the same and I know where all the places are to let folks in a hurry go by if necessary with minimum MPG damage.
We know that some people just have to tailgate, no matter how fast you are going. I used to do that too.
Last month I saw a kid driving an old Bronco miss judge a turn and slam a curb, separating the tires & bending his wheels. He mowed over a fire plug and carved up someone's lawn.
Why? He was protesting because I wasn't tailgating the next guy.
All I could do is look with stunned amazement as this unfolded and mumble "gee, what an idiot!"
Personally, at busy intersections I'll forsake some mpg to keep it all flowing, but I'm not going to burn off excessive fuel to do it. When beginning from a light I won't tailgate like every one else, but slowly set up a traffic buffer.
If nobody's behind me I do what I please.
Culliganman(Lt. runners are cheaters of courtesy & high risks)
P.S. Getting back to Hybrids and good milage..The best efforts tend to rub the "OTHERS" the wrong way because WE have come to know that there's a better way. The guy in the HUMMER could care less about his milage.
--Anytime you expect people to "rush" through a yellow light you're asking for trouble. The car ahead of you that you're trying to piggyback through the intersection may suddenly decide to hit the brakes, leaving you eating his bumper.
--Who goes 5 mph through a clear intersection anyway (unless you're talking about a pedestrian)? I can see this being annoying if it happened all the time, but I can't imagine it would happen so frequently that one would be annoyed by it.
Let's get back to Hybrid Gas Mileage: Good? Bad? As Expected?
Remember - we also have a discussion on Optimizing Mileage in the Hybrid Forum if you need it.
Someone here earlier pointed out that it's because they were a much lighter car than today. Stripped of extras and underpowered by today's small car requirements.
My HCH has a 1.3L engine, which is pretty small.
The electronics make up the deficiency.
Oh yes...sorry to be off topic...so...
Last night (3AM) I drove home with a 30MPH gusty cross wind, 18 degrees and still got 54.8MPG over 45 miles.
This afternoon it turned into a slam-on gusty head wind, about 40 degrees and I still did 58.7MPG over the same distance.
My drive is about half freeway with long, drawn out sometimes very steep hills, the other half hilly country roads.
One hint:
To get extra MPG out of a hybrid car, keep the instant MPG indicator above your current Average.
--I believe it would have been higher if not for the fact that almost half that mileage was the result of two long highway trips (i.e., running at ± 50 mpg hwy), and short work commutes that didn't allow the engine to warm up to its full potential.
Culliganman(going for a thrift ride)
.
If the light 50 feet in front of me is red, why do I need to move faster than 5 mph????? It makes no sense to speed up to 30, and then lock-up the tires to stop.
And just to be on-topic: I burned 0.1L/100km in that stretch (rev to 5 mph, and then engine off) which is ~2000 miles per gallon. Coasting to a red light at 5 mph, instead of burning rubber, saves fuel & money.
troy
sincerely,
grasshopper
troy
2004 Manual Tranny Honda Civic Hybrid.
highway: 50 mpg
2005 honda civic hybrid CVT
2002 Prius -- approx 47 mixed driving
2005 Escape (4wd) -- approx 29 mixed driving
My "highway" figure comes from the two road trips I have taken in my HCH.
City = not applicable (I avoid cities.... they suck)
troy
Anyone catch the report and which models/make were they?
Real world drivers/non car buffs always tell like it is.
TNX
Paul
N8BUU
Is it any surprise that people feel mislead?
troy
My average MPG has gone up from 38.4 in my first tank in July 2004 to my last six tanks averaging 52.4 MPG. :shades:
So anyone willing to use the available gauges to "play the high mileage game" can achieve EPA or greater. If you are not willing to adopt a more economical driving style, then I suggest keeping your SUV.
No, it is no surprise when high profile shows and media claim something that is just not true. Less than 10% of those people that are reporting their Prius II mileage are reaching or exceeding the combined 55 MPG EPA estimate. The only hybrid that is performing up to the EPA estimates is the Insight. The HCH is close. I'm not saying that an average of 48 MPG is not good, it is very good. I would think if Toyota was straight forward in their advertising that no one would have reason to complain.
The EPA mileage tests are outdated and flawed !! Even the EPA has acknowledged that and is investigating makeing modern changes to their tests.
NO car maker ANYWHERE is putting ANYTHING on their cars which is different than the EPA rating !!
There is no "misleading" being done of anyone, anywhere, anytime.
Here is a story which explains that Toyota WANTED TO LOWER MPG ESTIMATES but the EPA would not allow them to !!
http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=77&did=854
And it's not just Hybrids either:
"The trials found a BMW Z-4 gets 14.5 miles per gallon, versus the EPA's 21 mpg city and 29 mpg highway estimates. A Chrysler PT Cruiser averaged 17.5 mpg, compared with the EPA's 21 mpg city and 29 mpg highway assessments. A Dodge Neon averaged 24 mpg, versus the EPA's 27 mpg city and 33 mpg highway estimates."
http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/transportation/11049522.htm
I think you are missing the point. The person that buys a BMW Z4 is not all that worried about gas mileage. He wants fast a sporty car. What ever gas it burns is just part of the cost of having that sporty vehicle. A person that buys a Hummer is not worried about mileage. They want the off-road ability that vehicle affords. If it does not perform off road as expected they are going to be upset. The major reason the Prius exists is Good gas mileage. If it does not do what it was expected to do the driver feels cheated, and rightly so. Toyota does not have to play up the 60 MPG in their advertising. They know that the vehicle will not live up to the EPA flawed estimate. They could just say it gets great mileage and be done with it. The only place they have to post that EPA estimate is on the window sticker. Your assertion is that it is OK to spread misinformation if it comes from the US Government.
Flawed test or not, the Prius REALLY DID achieve 60 MPG, and under certain driving scenarios, even better than that is possible. One ( in my opinion quite disturbed ) Prius owner even got 85 MPG on a 900+ mile trip.
And since the Prius REALLY IS capable of 60 MPG, how is Toyota "misleading" anyone by using that in their advertising?
The truth is that until the EPA test is fixed, if you think Toyota is misleading anyone, that translates that ALL the carmakers are "misleading" consumers.
The "disgruntled hybrid owner" seems to be a "newsworthy item" for some reporters, and the few cases nationwide have been reported because it makes for an intruguing story in today's world of trash news. :mad:
There is NEVER a report on the THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of HAPPY hybrid owners, is there? What kind of story would THAT be???
That would be BORING, just like telling of all the Iraqis that are delighted to be out from under a brutal dictator.
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58MPG average for last winter,
last 3 tanks have been over 60,
the most recent one 62 point something.
Miles driven/gallons used method.
750+ miles on 12 gallons of gas well exceeds my expectations.
Working for that +65MPG tank hopefully this summer.
It's been like this for the last 38,000 miles and never had a car that was so much fun.
Very satisfied with my hybrid MPG.. :-)
2004 HCH CVT
I have a whole rant about advertising in general, but this isn't the place for it
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News & Views, Wagons, & Hybrid Vehicles
The Subaru Crew Chat is on tonight. The chat room opens at 8:45PM ET Hope to see YOU there! Check out the schedule