I live in West Tennessee. I own a 2005 prius. I love everything about it. It gets very hot and humid in this part of Tennessee in the summer time and it lasts for several months. I bought my car in mid April when the weather was still somewhat mild. I was averaging 52-55 mpg for the first few tanks. Then came the heat. 100-115 heat index for a whole month and not much less for the rest of summer. With the A/C set a Max Temp my mpg took a good hit. I am averaging 45-48 mpg with the A/C on. I realize that there in nothing that can be done about it. I am really looking forward for the fall season.
Some of you sure get off track...... I purchased a Toyota Prius On May 1, 2005 and have driven a little over 12,000 miles since. I live near Sacramento, CA and so my air conditioner runs a majority of the time. I use it primarily for work, and keep about 100 lbs. of stuff n the back as well las my 180 lbs. I keep a spreadsheet of the gas purchased vs. miles driven, and in 12,000 miles my average MPG is 50.1, which is not bad. About 70% of my driving is highway and that at 65 - 70. I drive it normally. I did take my wife and two dogs, with camping gear, to Colorado (2,500 miles) and it had lots of power in the mountains, and still averaged about 50 MPG on that trip. Nice car!
I read the autosite review and they got 48 overall. I am sure there are pre-production quirks. Let's hope the new HCH does really well in the market place. More competition brings better products to market.
I have a 2005 Honda Civic Hybrid with a 5-speed manual transmission. The car is driven throughout Western CT's rolling hills. I have driven 2,800 miles on the car at this point with an overall average of 51mpg. The fuel economy has met my expectations and continues to improve with each tank of fuel. I highly recommend this car to all current truck And SUV owners especially with gas prices in excess of $3 per gallon.
" I highly recommend this car to all current truck And SUV owners especially with gas prices in excess of $3 per gallon."
I assume you mean those truck owners who never haul large amounts of (for example) sod or manure, or tow a heavy boat, and for those SUV owners who do not have 5 kids, or who regularly need to haul 5 - 6 kids around? Or those who live on very rough semi-improved roads, which is still common in the Southern US?
The Prius is good at MPG, but it is not the all-in-all answer to everyone's transportation needs.
I'm going to take down the stuff that took us off topic here as it keeps generating more off topic stuff. Let's stick to hybrid mileage please. Thanks!
Off-topic: stevedebi was simply responding to (yet another) anti-suv statement which seems to crop up a lot in this thread. If it would be possible to post items related to hybrid gas mileage, and leave out the word "SUV" from posts (unless, of course, we are discussing the hybrid gas mileage from a hybrid SUV), it would help.
On-topic: my dad has owned an '04 Prius since December of '03. He now has nearly 40k miles on his Prius with a lifetime average of a bit over 50 mpg. My mom drives a 4runner; he's been tempted to get a bumper sticker that says "My other car is a SUV".
With 13 fillups averaging 50.7mpg (50.6 per computer; 50.8 measured); lowest about 42 and highest about 57. I just had installed 2" receiver hitch to haul bicycles and will measure my next 13 or so tanks. I'll post results then. However, I'm usually just carrying 1 bike, I'll just throw it inside, since it fits w/o removing front wheel. It will be interesting to see the impact of the 30 lb hitch over time. Of course with winter coming on, my mileage may be lower anyway, so may be better to wait till next summer to get a valid measurement of hitch impact. By the way, absolutely LOVE the Prius.
Glad to hear you're enjoying the car. My sister usually throws her two bikes in the back with the two seats down. Incredible what you can get in that car!!!
quote Moparbad-"50 mpg in your HCH? LOL CR can not get 50 mpg, Pete B. can not ge 50 mpg in HCH, HCH is not even rated at 50 mpg. Amazing that you get 50 mpg in your HCH larsb. You must be a phenom."-end quote
The fact that this comment was made shows again how so very few mainstream news stories about Hybrids EVER EVER point out that with a little driver training, HUGE MPG numbers can be achieved.
Like the team who recently got 109 MPG over one tank in a Prius.
Or the Insight driver who has a lifetime 92 MPG figure.
Or the HCH driver who has a lifetime 59.9 MPG over 50 tanks.
All we hear is the "doesn't make financial sense, doesn't get advertised MPG" mantra OVER and OVER and ANNOYINGLY OVER. :mad:
Like the team who recently got 109 MPG over one tank in a Prius. Or the Insight driver who has a lifetime 92 MPG figure. Or the HCH driver who has a lifetime 59.9 MPG over 50 tanks.
Larsb,
in all honesty the above examples are extreme and do not reflect the real world of driving. You do know that?
So what is the reality of hybrids. Let me repeat the shrewd following facts from your prior post:
1)Hybrids currently do not make financial sense 2)Hybrids do not even remotely resemble advertised MPG
The fact of the matter is that the mainstream news media are reporting the facts that are experienced by a majority of hybrid drivers and not by one Guiness Book of World Prius records of 109MPG .
I'm saying that believe those who are reporting "reserves" have every reason in the world to overstate figures and NO reason to understate the figures. And I'm hearing stuff about refining capacity. And a Republican president talked about something called conservation (he didn't actually use the word...but close enough).
And that If we somehow found ourselves just a smidge short of gasoline (I know...it's a bizarre thought), I'd rather own something with an electric motor under the hood rather than a turbocharger.
So even if it doesn't make sense economically at the moment, I'm ready. And when I get the plug-in conversion next year, I'll be ready. It's about being ready.
This talk of 109 mpg got me to wondering: Is this even possible?
I calculated the drag of the TPH using the published 0.26 coefficient of drag and the density of air in a standard atmosphere. I used 1.8 m^2 for the frontal area. I found that it requires ~292000J of energy from drag to travel a mile at 55mph.
I then found that a gallon of gas has about 115,000,000J of energy in it. The prius engine is supposed to be around 35% efficient, if reports are to be believed (this is way more efficient than most cars -- but it is an Atkinson cycle engine so I'll use this number). This leaves 40,000,000J of useful energy.
Dividing 40,000,000/292,000= 137 mpg. This is what could be achieved just pushing the wind. This also assumes that the wind speed is 0. Now before anyone gets excited, the wind drag is typically 45% or so of the power consumed at 55mph. Assuming this holds in the Prius case, then the best that could be achieved is somewhere around 68 mph. Obviously, real, published numbers for "other" losses would be useful and would allow a better calculation of the actual power requirements.
Given this analysis, it is hard to believe anyone achieved 109 mpg on a tank -- at least not on a fair course with a stock Prius. They had to either have had an incredible tail wind or been driving down hill. I'd have to see them repeat their results a few times on a loop course in an outside environment to believe it.
Then again, if they were able to reduce the coefficient of drag further by encasing the bottom of the vehicle with mylar or something and went to super efficient tires and lower viscosity grease and oil on everything and tested at the optimal temperature, they might have gotten close.
Does anyone have a link to information on this record?
Here's the link. Not only is it POSSIBLE and it HAPPENED, but it was recorded by HBO and will appear as a part of a multiple subject special next year.
"Hybrid drivers complete run for mileage mark 2 days, 1,400 miles, 110 mpg 1 tank Monday, August 08, 2005
By Jacqueline Shoyeb and Moustafa Ayad, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Dan Kroushl punched the gas pedal in his silver Toyota Prius during the final 30 minutes of the 47-hour, 1,397-mile trip completed on a single tank of gasoline."
I guess I didn't understand the criteria. I don't think it is possible to achieve this in a stock Prius at highway speed.
Well I just read the description and I understand how they did it. They drove at an aveage speed of 30mph!!!! Wind drag increases at the square of velocity so the wind drag they experienced was only 30% or so of my calculation. Also tire rolling resistance goes up linearly with speed so this would have been reduced as well. Pulsing the engine eliminates some of the losses in the drive train since it is decoupled during their coasting.
No one is going to think this is a realistic way to achieve mileage gains. I'm pretty sure people aren't even willing to drive 55. The physics of traveling at HIGHWAY speeds are such that you can't get from A to B for free.
I guarantee I won't be traveling cross country at 30mph or less unless I decide to do a long bicycle tour or ride a 1st class luxury train.
The Prius has a long way to go to break any mileage records. Both gas & diesel vehicles have gone over 155 MPG at 55 MPH. Not a hybrid in the pack.
Gasoline Record The 157.192 MPG at 55 MPH gasoline record was set on November 20, 1980. Malewicki drove the California Commuter from Los Angeles to San Francisco where the machine was featured at the San Francisco International Auto Show. Just 2.87 gallons to travel 451.3 miles! (Note that a 20 MPG vehicle would use a little over 22 gallons to drive the same distance!)
Diesel Record The 156.53 MPG at 56.3 MPH diesel record was set on November 30, 1981. A year later, Doug drove the California Commuter from Anaheim, California to Las Vegas, Nevada where it was featured at the SEMA Show (Specialty Equipment Manufacturers Association). This time Guinness people were on hand to document the run, so with their help we also obtained accurate average speed data. The mileage for a diesel should be better than for gasoline - except driving to Las Vegas involves climbing two long mountain passes for a total of 7,993 feet of elevation gains. Just 1.68 gallons of diesel to travel 263.4 miles!
I agree. Current hybrids actually don't help at highway speeds. They are better than some other cars simply because they have been engineered for efficiency and have very small engines. The prius would get better highway mileage if you removed the batter pack, generator and motor.
I'm excited about the possiblities for improvements, but it is possible to put an upper bound on fuel efficiency at a given speed with a certain sized vehicle and inefficient heat engines. We can generate a theoretical limit and must realize that the practical limit will be much lower than the theoretical limit.
That is until we do something crazy like create evacuated air highways with built in maglev style propulsion systems.
Oh, I was just saying that because they went 1300 miles on the trip. Also, my personal bias is for highway efficiency since that is where I do most of my driving. I live 1 mile from work so even having a vehicle isn't much of a concern for my work commuting. I like to drive further to recreation spots on the weekend. Sorry for not stating that.
That technique may work well in residential neighborhoods and slower city streets. How much up and down in speed does it require? Too much would seem to cause other traffic problems.
Have you seen the CA. Commuter? It would not be street legal in any of the 50 states let alone 80% of the known world. All the hybrids that are for sale here are. Not to mention carry 5 adults, luggage, front, side, and side curtain airbags, etc You may as well purchase a Honda Moped for > 200 mpg as it would probably be safer Then there are the greater then 10,000 mpg experiments running the Shell Eco runs and the PV based experiments that receive infinite FE. Would you drive any of them back and forth to work? Can you drive any of them back and forth to work? The answer is no.
Tradescott, who said anything about traveling across the country? The “Marathon Attempt” was performed in an all-city environment along the Ohio River near Pittsburgh. The final tally included over 300 stops for stop lights and maybe 200 slow downs to less then 20 mph before the lights turned green again. If you were traveling behind the Prius II during the event, you would not have noticed it was in an event.
In regards to Hybrids not receiving higher FE on the highway then their non-hybrid counterparts, that is incorrect. A hybrid uses a smaller, less thirsty ICE with its electrics assisting helping with the performance when needed.
I think the plug in option is great. I'd like to see one of Toyota's competitors offer it. I don't think you'll see Toyota offer it until they are forced to do so.
I think 109 mph is possible. You go under 35 mph on a special smooth closed circuit track drafting a foot behind a wind break truck. Heck! Every driver drives under those conditions.
By at 109 mpg running dry = 1297.1 miles at 35 mph = 37.06 hours of driving
You think 109 mpg is possible? That was last years best in an Insight 5-speed in and around Chicago and the state of Illinois. The Prius II beat that mark over an entire tank at 110.03 mpg after 1,397 miles, 51.25 Km/L or 120.6 mpg over 150.8 Km with a 127 mpg best RT segment over 30 Km. It was completed by a team of 5 who are all now good friends. This was not “I think”, this was reality. It did not include drafting and was not on some special off-road smooth race course. It was 15 miles of PA. Rt. 79 with stop lights about every 1.5 miles on average, stop signs at each ends turnaround, and traffic just like many suburban roads any one of us may commute through on any given day. The night and early morning shifts had the least traffic but the colder temperatures and rain on both nights
Final Talley: 46.52 Km/L (109.4 mpg) after 2248.70 Km
Best Segment: #10 @ 51.25 Km/L (120.6 mpg) after 150.78 Km
Zodiac2004, the Prius II’s native P&G capability was used for 90 + % of that FE I would have liked to use FAS’ on some portions of the route as that is a Honda Hybrid and non-hybrid trick but P&G worked very similar (natively) in the Prius II with a lot less cycling of the powertrain.
Some independent, verified tests also indicate the Prius can get 109 MPG too........
The fact that stands out among all the "media-generated confusion" about hybrids is that "when driven correctly" hybrids CAN AND DO achieve EPA estimates, and we know the EPA tests are flawed for ALL cars.
and we know the EPA tests are flawed for ALL cars. But the flaws are significantly worse for hybrids than non-hybrids!
Some independent, verified tests also indicate the Prius can get 109 MPG too........
What tests proved the 109MPG figure?
I am willing to wager that the tests that got 60% off city driving EPA involved the type of driving 99% the population does while that 109MPG involved driving that can hardly be repeated by anyone else!
Here is the real story.. whether you accept it or not.. the typical Prius owner who tries to use the best features of the system will get a combined rating of abt 47-51 mpg.
Any knowledgable Prius owner can replicate the various mileage ratings reported by CR, Edmunds and individual owners ranging from 35 mpg to 65 mpg. YMMV.
Everyone ( including the EPA ) knows the EPA city test is flawed and needs to be changed. The highway test is fairly accurate for all vehicles including the Prius.
Harp on the negative if you wish but the above is reality. Complain to the US EPA about the free advertising for the Prius.
Harp on the negative if you wish but the above is reality. Complain to the US EPA about the free advertising for the Prius
I have no intention nor the time to continue harping about hybrid MPG, but you are correct in stating the US EPA provides Toyota with free advertising!
I would question the tire pressure being higher than is recommended safe by the tire manufacturer. Were the brakes loosened to give less drag? Did they use a non bladder gas tank to get accurate mileage results. If that was feasible with a stock Prius II, maybe at least one of the people reporting on GH would have reached that lofty goal. I don't see any of the 383 owners even averaging 75 MPG. In fact less than 10% are getting the EPA 55 MPG combined. The 48 MPG combined is good unless you expected 55 MPG.
Second: Why are so many of the Pro hybrid group happy to only take the good results that CR comes up with? You know my opinion that CR is a worthless rag. Several of you love to give out the 94% happy rating of the Prius. And you hate to admit the 35 MPG city rating that the same CR published for all to see. Does that mean you only want people to see one side of the hybrid coin? Not the good, the bad, and the UGLY?
It's not only Toyota. Every manufacturers benefits from the flawed testing of the EPA. If you look at the Prius window sticker there is a range of MPG for that type of size vehicle. Back in the summer of 2003 when my sister placed her order the EPA testing was not available yet, but there was chatter that it would be 60 or so city. I said back then, be prepared for 45-48 on average. Needless to say, my sister is quite pleased with her mileage. Not many cars out today, can tout that type of mileage. Gotta love it!!
The reason the 94% number is important is that it comes from THOUSANDS of REAL owners, rating their own car. That's what makes it statistcially significant. It's not "Consumer Reports" rating the car at 94% - it's the ACTUAL OWNERS who live with the good and the bad of the car every day.
As for the 35 MPG figure, that's one or a few drivers who are not trained for hypermiling and in fact could probably CARE LESS what MPG they get driving the car - it's not their car or their money paying for the gas. They probably drove the car without even knowing there is a way to keep in in EV mode for as long as possible. That one little test of MPG has no bearing on how real drivers who own the car and learn the car over time can perform MPG-wise.
Any uneducated driver can get into a Hybrid and produce bad results. But if they OWN the car and are paying for the gas out of their OWN POCKETS and the car payment out of their own pockets, they are smart to learn to maxmize the MPG of the car using the tools provided by Toyota.
The Prius is the best among the best hybrids in terms of real MPG vs. EPA!
Read in National Post a test drive of the new Hybrid Civic. Despite a Canadian rating of 4.3 Litres/100km combined driving, the Civic accomplished 7.0Litres/100km.
That is 63% off the claimed Canadian(EPA) version of mileage. THat is nothing short of being PATHETIC for any car that claims the virtue of gas efficiency!
quote Dewey-"Read in National Post a test drive of the new Hybrid Civic. Despite a Canadian rating of 4.3 Litres/100km combined driving, the Civic accomplished 7.0Litres/100km."-end quote...
See my post number 3936 above, the middle paragraph. One test by an untrained driver does not a "OK this car is a failure" make.
I don't understand the controversy. We all know the EPA #s are not intended to reflect what each of us will achieve. What they are is a standard test, that all cars have to take. That is all. It's no surprise that a car company may have gamed the system, so they could do much better in the test (and thus get all sorts of good press) and not as good in real life.
I don't think Toyota says "When you buy this car you will get X mpg" They say "According to the EPA test, this car gets X mpg."
It's not only Toyota. Every manufacturers benefits from the flawed testing of the EPA.
Well it looks like just the Prius gets the great EPA ratings to me. It averages about the same as the HCH with manual transmission, 48 MPG combined. Yet the EPA rates the Prius for 55 MPG and the HCH MT at 48 MPG combined. So if you buy the HCH you should get the EPA. If you buy the Toyota Prius it is likely you will not get the EPA. In fact less than 10% of all Prius owners get EPA estimates. Also not all mileage tests are done by the EPA. The EPA lets the manufacturers do their own testing on some cars. Who did the Prius tests? Did Toyota fudge a bit to get a high rating?
Manufacturers test their own vehicles—usually pre-production prototypes—and report the results to EPA. EPA reviews the results and confirms about 10-15 percent of them through their own tests.
In the training just before the Gen2 came out in Oct '03 one of the training engineers told us that Toyota was very pleased to hear that the EPA had decided to put '60' as the city figure. It was the promotional benefit that pleased them with the '6' as the leading figure. It was implied that it was Toyota's guesstimate that the city figure would be '58-59'.
Two years of free promotion courtesy of the US Gov't.
If I (Mr. Lead Foot) can easily get low 50's in highway driving, then anyone else can. Bottom line, the Prius is one of the best mileage cars money can buy. Let's forget what the EPA says for a moment (bunch of bunk). Name one other car sold in the US that seats MIN 4 PEOPLE (ALL FIFTY STATES!) that easily gets 50 mpg highway. Keep thinking...cause the only one that you'll come up with is the HCH. Prius...gotta love dem numbers!!!
Yeah... I guess I should complain to Jeep for why my inlaws Jeep with a 6cyl engine has an average of 13.8 mpg. Now knowing what real world mileage is, people still line up in droves to buy the Prius. Gotta love it!!!
P.S. I'd be happy as a pig in *** if my car got 48!!!
"Overall, this switch-on, switch-off of gas and electricity adds to the Civic Hybrid's reported fuel economy rating of 4.7 litres per 100 kilometres in the city and 4.3 L/100 km on the highway, or 1,000 kilometres on a 46.5-litre gas tank. My results averaged more like 7.0 combined city and highway driving and about 700 kilometres on a tank of fuel. Still impressive, considering I didn't dance on the throttle like a ballerina in thick socks."
So even the "no hypermilers" tester was impressed...... He's "no-hypermilers" because he said this earlier in the review:
"A list on greenhybrid.com called "You know you're a real hybrid owner when ... " offers "you lean forward going up hills instead of hitting the gas" and "you post your gas mileage online."
These are the freaks looking for better mileage in an already fuel-efficient and emissions-friendly car. The reality is that most people who are switching from conventional combustion engines to the dual gasoline/electric-motored-cars are not likely going to change their driving style to save a few pennies."
That's just it - people should be willing and happy to change their driving style a little bit to take advantage of the technology that Hybrids provide...
Comments
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2005-09-08-civic-hybrid_x.htm
I purchased a Toyota Prius On May 1, 2005 and have driven a little over 12,000 miles since. I live near Sacramento, CA and so my air conditioner runs a majority of the time. I use it primarily for work, and keep about 100 lbs. of stuff n the back as well las my 180 lbs. I keep a spreadsheet of the gas purchased vs. miles driven, and in 12,000 miles my average MPG is 50.1, which is not bad. About 70% of my driving is highway and that at 65 - 70. I drive it normally. I did take my wife and two dogs, with camping gear, to Colorado (2,500 miles) and it had lots of power in the mountains, and still averaged about 50 MPG on that trip. Nice car!
Dick
Davis, CA
I assume you mean those truck owners who never haul large amounts of (for example) sod or manure, or tow a heavy boat, and for those SUV owners who do not have 5 kids, or who regularly need to haul 5 - 6 kids around? Or those who live on very rough semi-improved roads, which is still common in the Southern US?
The Prius is good at MPG, but it is not the all-in-all answer to everyone's transportation needs.
On-topic: my dad has owned an '04 Prius since December of '03. He now has nearly 40k miles on his Prius with a lifetime average of a bit over 50 mpg. My mom drives a 4runner; he's been tempted to get a bumper sticker that says "My other car is a SUV".
The fact that this comment was made shows again how so very few mainstream news stories about Hybrids EVER EVER point out that with a little driver training, HUGE MPG numbers can be achieved.
Like the team who recently got 109 MPG over one tank in a Prius.
Or the Insight driver who has a lifetime 92 MPG figure.
Or the HCH driver who has a lifetime 59.9 MPG over 50 tanks.
All we hear is the "doesn't make financial sense, doesn't get advertised MPG" mantra OVER and OVER and ANNOYINGLY OVER. :mad:
Or the Insight driver who has a lifetime 92 MPG figure.
Or the HCH driver who has a lifetime 59.9 MPG over 50 tanks.
Larsb,
in all honesty the above examples are extreme and do not reflect the real world of driving. You do know that?
So what is the reality of hybrids. Let me repeat the shrewd following facts from your prior post:
1)Hybrids currently do not make financial sense
2)Hybrids do not even remotely resemble advertised MPG
The fact of the matter is that the mainstream news media are reporting the facts that are experienced by a majority of hybrid drivers and not by one Guiness Book of World Prius records of 109MPG .
And that If we somehow found ourselves just a smidge short of gasoline (I know...it's a bizarre thought), I'd rather own something with an electric motor under the hood rather than a turbocharger.
So even if it doesn't make sense economically at the moment, I'm ready. And when I get the plug-in conversion next year, I'll be ready. It's about being ready.
I calculated the drag of the TPH using the published 0.26 coefficient of drag and the density of air in a standard atmosphere. I used 1.8 m^2 for the frontal area. I found that it requires ~292000J of energy from drag to travel a mile at 55mph.
I then found that a gallon of gas has about 115,000,000J of energy in it. The prius engine is supposed to be around 35% efficient, if reports are to be believed (this is way more efficient than most cars -- but it is an Atkinson cycle engine so I'll use this number). This leaves 40,000,000J of useful energy.
Dividing 40,000,000/292,000= 137 mpg. This is what could be achieved just pushing the wind. This also assumes that the wind speed is 0. Now before anyone gets excited, the wind drag is typically 45% or so of the power consumed at 55mph. Assuming this holds in the Prius case, then the best that could be achieved is somewhere around 68 mph. Obviously, real, published numbers for "other" losses would be useful and would allow a better calculation of the actual power requirements.
Given this analysis, it is hard to believe anyone achieved 109 mpg on a tank -- at least not on a fair course with a stock Prius. They had to either have had an incredible tail wind or been driving down hill. I'd have to see them repeat their results a few times on a loop course in an outside environment to believe it.
Then again, if they were able to reduce the coefficient of drag further by encasing the bottom of the vehicle with mylar or something and went to super efficient tires and lower viscosity grease and oil on everything and tested at the optimal temperature, they might have gotten close.
Does anyone have a link to information on this record?
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05220/550484.stm
"Hybrid drivers complete run for mileage mark
2 days, 1,400 miles, 110 mpg 1 tank
Monday, August 08, 2005
By Jacqueline Shoyeb and Moustafa Ayad, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Dan Kroushl punched the gas pedal in his silver Toyota Prius during the final 30 minutes of the 47-hour, 1,397-mile trip completed on a single tank of gasoline."
Well I just read the description and I understand how they did it. They drove at an aveage speed of 30mph!!!! Wind drag increases at the square of velocity so the wind drag they experienced was only 30% or so of my calculation. Also tire rolling resistance goes up linearly with speed so this would have been reduced as well. Pulsing the engine eliminates some of the losses in the drive train since it is decoupled during their coasting.
No one is going to think this is a realistic way to achieve mileage gains. I'm pretty sure people aren't even willing to drive 55. The physics of traveling at HIGHWAY speeds are such that you can't get from A to B for free.
I guarantee I won't be traveling cross country at 30mph or less unless I decide to do a long bicycle tour or ride a 1st class luxury train.
Gasoline Record
The 157.192 MPG at 55 MPH gasoline record was set on November 20, 1980. Malewicki drove the California Commuter from Los Angeles to San Francisco where the machine was featured at the San Francisco International Auto Show. Just 2.87 gallons to travel 451.3 miles! (Note that a 20 MPG vehicle would use a little over 22 gallons to drive the same distance!)
Diesel Record
The 156.53 MPG at 56.3 MPH diesel record was set on November 30, 1981. A year later, Doug drove the California Commuter from Anaheim, California to Las Vegas, Nevada where it was featured at the SEMA Show (Specialty Equipment Manufacturers Association). This time Guinness people were on hand to document the run, so with their help we also obtained accurate average speed data. The mileage for a diesel should be better than for gasoline - except driving to Las Vegas involves climbing two long mountain passes for a total of 7,993 feet of elevation gains. Just 1.68 gallons of diesel to travel 263.4 miles!
http://www.canosoarus.com/03CalifCommuter/CalCom01.htm
'nuff said.
P.S. Boy, we certainly WOKE this forum up today. Great Debates guys !!! Loving it !!!
I'm excited about the possiblities for improvements, but it is possible to put an upper bound on fuel efficiency at a given speed with a certain sized vehicle and inefficient heat engines. We can generate a theoretical limit and must realize that the practical limit will be much lower than the theoretical limit.
That is until we do something crazy like create evacuated air highways with built in maglev style propulsion systems.
That technique may work well in residential neighborhoods and slower city streets. How much up and down in speed does it require? Too much would seem to cause other traffic problems.
Have you seen the CA. Commuter? It would not be street legal in any of the 50 states let alone 80% of the known world. All the hybrids that are for sale here are. Not to mention carry 5 adults, luggage, front, side, and side curtain airbags, etc You may as well purchase a Honda Moped for > 200 mpg as it would probably be safer
Tradescott, who said anything about traveling across the country? The “Marathon Attempt” was performed in an all-city environment along the Ohio River near Pittsburgh. The final tally included over 300 stops for stop lights and maybe 200 slow downs to less then 20 mph before the lights turned green again. If you were traveling behind the Prius II during the event, you would not have noticed it was in an event.
In regards to Hybrids not receiving higher FE on the highway then their non-hybrid counterparts, that is incorrect. A hybrid uses a smaller, less thirsty ICE with its electrics assisting helping with the performance when needed.
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
I think the plug in option is great. I'd like to see one of Toyota's competitors offer it. I don't think you'll see Toyota offer it until they are forced to do so.
On the LA freeways, it is not only extreme, it is suicide... :sick:
Tradscott, don't forget the FAS technique which they no doubt used. Gets infinite mpg for a period of time.
By at 109 mpg running dry = 1297.1 miles at 35 mph = 37.06 hours of driving
sounds like one for Guiness or Ripley's
YMMV,
MidCow
You think 109 mpg is possible? That was last years best in an Insight 5-speed in and around Chicago and the state of Illinois. The Prius II beat that mark over an entire tank at 110.03 mpg after 1,397 miles, 51.25 Km/L or 120.6 mpg over 150.8 Km with a 127 mpg best RT segment over 30 Km. It was completed by a team of 5 who are all now good friends. This was not “I think”, this was reality. It did not include drafting and was not on some special off-road smooth race course. It was 15 miles of PA. Rt. 79 with stop lights about every 1.5 miles on average, stop signs at each ends turnaround, and traffic just like many suburban roads any one of us may commute through on any given day. The night and early morning shifts had the least traffic but the colder temperatures and rain on both nights
Final Talley: 46.52 Km/L (109.4 mpg) after 2248.70 Km
Best Segment: #10 @ 51.25 Km/L (120.6 mpg) after 150.78 Km
Zodiac2004, the Prius II’s native P&G capability was used for 90 + % of that FE I would have liked to use FAS’ on some portions of the route as that is a Honda Hybrid and non-hybrid trick but P&G worked very similar (natively) in the Prius II with a lot less cycling of the powertrain.
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
The fact that stands out among all the "media-generated confusion" about hybrids is that "when driven correctly" hybrids CAN AND DO achieve EPA estimates, and we know the EPA tests are flawed for ALL cars.
But the flaws are significantly worse for hybrids than non-hybrids!
Some independent, verified tests also indicate the Prius can get 109 MPG too........
What tests proved the 109MPG figure?
I am willing to wager that the tests that got 60% off city driving EPA involved the type of driving 99% the population does while that 109MPG involved driving that can hardly be repeated by anyone else!
Any knowledgable Prius owner can replicate the various mileage ratings reported by CR, Edmunds and individual owners ranging from 35 mpg to 65 mpg. YMMV.
Everyone ( including the EPA ) knows the EPA city test is flawed and needs to be changed. The highway test is fairly accurate for all vehicles including the Prius.
Harp on the negative if you wish but the above is reality. Complain to the US EPA about the free advertising for the Prius.
I have no intention nor the time to continue harping about hybrid MPG, but you are correct in stating the US EPA provides Toyota with free advertising!
What part of that is "unreal" to you, other than the 109 MPG?
I would question the tire pressure being higher than is recommended safe by the tire manufacturer. Were the brakes loosened to give less drag? Did they use a non bladder gas tank to get accurate mileage results. If that was feasible with a stock Prius II, maybe at least one of the people reporting on GH would have reached that lofty goal. I don't see any of the 383 owners even averaging 75 MPG. In fact less than 10% are getting the EPA 55 MPG combined. The 48 MPG combined is good unless you expected 55 MPG.
Second: Why are so many of the Pro hybrid group happy to only take the good results that CR comes up with? You know my opinion that CR is a worthless rag. Several of you love to give out the 94% happy rating of the Prius. And you hate to admit the 35 MPG city rating that the same CR published for all to see. Does that mean you only want people to see one side of the hybrid coin? Not the good, the bad, and the UGLY?
Infinite MPG with a bicycle that is just as fast or maybe even faster!
As for the 35 MPG figure, that's one or a few drivers who are not trained for hypermiling and in fact could probably CARE LESS what MPG they get driving the car - it's not their car or their money paying for the gas. They probably drove the car without even knowing there is a way to keep in in EV mode for as long as possible. That one little test of MPG has no bearing on how real drivers who own the car and learn the car over time can perform MPG-wise.
Any uneducated driver can get into a Hybrid and produce bad results. But if they OWN the car and are paying for the gas out of their OWN POCKETS and the car payment out of their own pockets, they are smart to learn to maxmize the MPG of the car using the tools provided by Toyota.
Read in National Post a test drive of the new Hybrid Civic.
Despite a Canadian rating of 4.3 Litres/100km combined driving, the Civic accomplished 7.0Litres/100km.
That is 63% off the claimed Canadian(EPA) version of mileage. THat is nothing short of being PATHETIC for any car that claims the virtue of gas efficiency!
See my post number 3936 above, the middle paragraph. One test by an untrained driver does not a "OK this car is a failure" make.
I don't think Toyota says "When you buy this car you will get X mpg" They say "According to the EPA test, this car gets X mpg."
but if I am missing something, please tell me
Well it looks like just the Prius gets the great EPA ratings to me. It averages about the same as the HCH with manual transmission, 48 MPG combined. Yet the EPA rates the Prius for 55 MPG and the HCH MT at 48 MPG combined. So if you buy the HCH you should get the EPA. If you buy the Toyota Prius it is likely you will not get the EPA. In fact less than 10% of all Prius owners get EPA estimates. Also not all mileage tests are done by the EPA. The EPA lets the manufacturers do their own testing on some cars. Who did the Prius tests? Did Toyota fudge a bit to get a high rating?
Manufacturers test their own vehicles—usually pre-production prototypes—and report the results to EPA. EPA reviews the results and confirms about 10-15 percent of them through their own tests.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml
Send em an e-mail if you think different....
Two years of free promotion courtesy of the US Gov't.
If I (Mr. Lead Foot) can easily get low 50's in highway driving, then anyone else can. Bottom line, the Prius is one of the best mileage cars money can buy. Let's forget what the EPA says for a moment (bunch of bunk). Name one other car sold in the US that seats MIN 4 PEOPLE (ALL FIFTY STATES!) that easily gets 50 mpg highway. Keep thinking...cause the only one that you'll come up with is the HCH. Prius...gotta love dem numbers!!!
P.S. I'd be happy as a pig in *** if my car got 48!!!
So even the "no hypermilers" tester was impressed...... He's "no-hypermilers" because he said this earlier in the review:
"A list on greenhybrid.com called "You know you're a real hybrid owner when ... " offers "you lean forward going up hills instead of hitting the gas" and "you post your gas mileage online."
These are the freaks looking for better mileage in an already fuel-efficient and emissions-friendly car. The reality is that most people who are switching from conventional combustion engines to the dual gasoline/electric-motored-cars are not likely going to change their driving style to save a few pennies."
That's just it - people should be willing and happy to change their driving style a little bit to take advantage of the technology that Hybrids provide...