Daimler's abuse of the Dodge Charger legacy.

seminole_kev · May 2005

Sort of ties in with the current topic: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Columns/articleId=105526

andre1969 · May 2005

on that article is how the writer commented on things falling off of the Mopars and how the interiors were cheap compared to the Chevies and Fords. My experience has been just the opposite. In fact, one thing that turned me ON to Mopars is the fact that the interiors aren't as flimsy. Now I'm not sure about Ford, but GM started loading up their interiors with cheap plastic parts that would fall apart and crack, while Mopar was still using good old fashioned metal! Sure, a metal headlight pull-switch would gouge out your knee if you whacked it in an accident, but at least it wouldn't come off in your hand like the GM stuff! :P

That article does drive home the point though, that the Hemi really wasn't a good day-to-day engine to live with. It was a race car engine, pure and simple. It would go out of tune like every 15 minutes and you had to drive it hard to make it "happy". And they usually lasted about half as long as a wedge head engine (or the old Dodge/DeSoto/Chrysler Hemi) before needing a rebuild.

Years ago, I read an article in a muscle car rag where they compared a '68 Dart with a 340, 440, and 426 Hemi. Overall, the 340 was the best-balanced engine. The 440 wasn't appreciably faster, and the added weight made the car a pain to maneuver. The Hemi WAS appreciably faster, and downright evil...in a straight line on the drag strip. But it was pretty much bottom of the barrel when it came to handling.

Now that was also in a compact car. In something larger like an intermediate, the torquier 440 would've probably done better than the 340, and the additional weight wouldn't affect the larger car as much. So in something like that the 440 might be the better daily driver.

spitngrease · May 2005

'68-70's? What about the '66. That WAS the original Charger(unless you include the Dart Charger). I like that the '06 borrowed the '66s roof line.

john_324 · May 2005

Saw the new "teaser" drag-strip ad for the Charger...it's actually not that bad.

IMO it does a nice job of juxtapositioning the car's muscle-car pedigree with suggestions (the cup of coffee) that the car would be a fine daily driver.

Also saw an ad for the upcoming Dukes of Hazzard movie...it's too bad they didn't tie-in with the new Charger...probably would have sold a lot of them that way.

utter · May 2005

The 4-door fans will like this:

"The 2006 Dodge Charger has received the government's highest rating for frontal-impact crash protection from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). The Dodge Charger five-star rating for frontal crash protection makes it the 10th new product from Chrysler Group to achieve the top safety rating in the governmental frontal crash tests."

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050512/deth030.html?.v=6

stickguy · May 2005

I think that many people have selective memories. I parked next to a gen 2 (68-69)CHarger at BJs the other day. Odd to see it out in the first place, and boy was this a big car!.

Anyway, it was a complete boulevard.fogey car. tan, 2 tone interior, vinyl roof, everything screamed "chick" car/image but no performance.

I think my point is, even though they were all 2 doors, even the old Chargers abused their own legacy at the time!

davem2001 · May 2005

think my point is, even though they were all 2 doors, even the old Chargers abused their own legacy at the time!

we need to ignore that so we can continue to bash DCX for being German, not bringing out the '99 concept, having 4 doors on the 2006, and anything else that I can think of......

andre1969 · May 2005

so STOP making sense, Stickguy! :P BTW, the Charger appears to be in the showrooms now. Grbeck told me he saw an R/T in Cool Vanilla, and a member posted in the Intrepid forum mentioned that he checked out a Charger at the dealer over the weekend.

andre1969 · May 2005

about 12 years ago I busted up my Dart pretty bad, or so I thought, so I was searching around for another used car in the event I had to put a bullet in the Dart to put it out of its misery. I found a '69 Charger with a slant six! Talk about all show and no go! Had I bought that car, at this point I'd probably be laughing my butt off anytime someone calls the Charger a musclecar or whines about how they ain't what they used to be!

In the end, the Dart just needed a ball joint and a control arm. Ball joint was $45. Control arm was free...I pulled it off my old wrecked Dart GT. I threw it all together the best I could, and then took it to get aligned for like 30 bucks, and that saved me from having to blow a bunch of money on another car.

dougd7 · May 2005

Funny how most people seem to recall the Charger's with the 426 Hemi when in reality only a relatively few had the famed engine. Most came with the 318 or /6. I guess most of us have selective memories.

andre1969 · May 2005

that was the thing that kept the Charger from being a "real" musclecar...the fact that you could get such mundane engines as the slant six and 318 V-8 in them. In contrast, the Roadrunner and Superbee came with a 383-4bbl standard. I think the Plymouth GTX might've even had a 440-4bbl standard. My memory's playing tricks on me now though, so I can't remember what the Dodge version of the GTX was. Coronet R/T?

The old Charger really was more of a personal luxury coupe, along the lines of a Monte Carlo or Grand Prix, that happened to offer a musclecar version. Just like the Monte Carlo had the SS (only for a year or two in the 70's) and the Grand Prix had the SJ or whatever version had the monster engine, the Charger had the R/T.

explorerx4 · May 2005

andre... always loved those crazy paint jobs/stripes from the late 60's/early 70's.
top pontiac GP was SSJ.
my opinion about the new charger is that dc has the resources to do whatever they want, so that is different from chargers other than the original. i'm a ford guy, so others will decide if the new charger is the right decision. no doubt about 'yes' in the short run.

grbeck · May 2005

...the Dodge version of the Plymouth GTX was the R/T, while the Dodge equivalent of the Road Runner was the Super Bee. After 1971, Dodge cancelled its Coronet coupes, so Charger picked up the Super Bee model (it already had an R/T version).

People forget that the truly high performance versions of most 1960s models were not sold in huge numbers (that's why they are worth so much today).

One of the local Dodge dealers has a new Charger R/T (in cool vanilla) on the lot. It has the confident stance and appearance that have been missing from American sedans for far too long (except for the Chrysler 300). I think it will be a hit.

And I question how this 21st century Charger can be any less worthy of the name than the 1975-77 Cordoba clones, or the front-wheel-drive models of the 1980s. I don't recall anyone getting worked up over them.

davem2001 · May 2005

I saw one on the road this past weekend...

andre1969 · May 2005

a few disparaging remarks about the 70's Chargers in some automotive history books, in retrospective, but I dunno how badly they were ragged on when new. I think it was the Consumer Guide history books that said "By 1975 not even the Dukes of Hazzard would have recognized it", or something to that extent.

For the most part though, when I was a kid, those cars just seemed to go un-noticed. The Cordoba pretty much stole all the thunder, and to a lesser extent the '78-79 Magnum XE, which certainly looked the part of a musclecar, even if the performance wasn't there. I do remember we used to rag on the little Omni-based Chargers when they were new, but then I'm sure we would've ragged on it, no matter what it was called!

The one thing those Cordoba clones had going for them, is that even though they weren't that great when you look back on them, they also really weren't any worse than their competition...cars like the Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, Torino Elite, Cougar, downsized T-bird, etc.

john_324 · May 2005

I wonder if it's not pop culture that's driving the current selective nostalgia for the Charger.

I think when alot of people hear "Charger", they think of either "Dukes of Hazzard" or "Bullitt" as representative of the car...sure, the new one would have to come up a little short compared with those iconic vehicles.

I'm sure quite a few of us, while generally loving Ferraris of all sorts have a special place in our hearts for a red 308 GTS...

andre1969 · May 2005

also tended to get cast in a menacing light in most movies. In addition to "Bullitt", I recall several different movies in which they'd usually put the bad guys in a Charger. There was a movie called "Cannonball", where some guy in a Charger was trying to off David Carradine, who happened to be driving a Mustang. An homage to Bullitt, perhaps? :surprise: I also remember "Wheels of Terror", a made for cable (IIRC) movie that in the previews and the cover made it look like it was a killer Charger, along the lines of "Christine" or "The Car", (it was a '71-74 Charger,though). This one was just a child molester/rapist driving around in a beat-up black Charger with a customized front-end, and the final showdown involved the Charger and a short-bus in a quarry.

There was another psycho-in-a-Charger movie made in the 80's that had the dude from "Wiseguy" in it. Ken Wahl, I think? And, of course there was "Crazy Larry, Dirty Mary", or did I get that backwards? IIRC they started off their police-chase antics in a '65 Impala, but broke something in the suspension, so they stole a yellow '68-69 Charger. In the end they get whacked by a freight train and blow up. They used it as stock footage in the opening credits of "The Fall Guy".

I'm sure there have been countless other movies where the Charger gets cast in a menacing type of light, which might have helped the older car get its bad-boy image. Oh yeah, how could I forget the "Fast and the Furious?"

dougd7 · May 2005

andre,

It was titled "Dirty Mary, Crazy Larry" and I thought the switch from the Impala to the Charger was a planned swap or so I thought. Too bad they destroyed the Charger at the end of the movie by trying to outrun a train. :mad:

Same with the Fast and the Furious. How dare they destroy a 69 Charger at the end!

What most people really forget is that the Superbirds and the GTX were the cars to have with their big block 383's and 440's. I remember travleing with my Dad to see our relatives in Detroit many years ago (late 60's, early 70's) and seeing quite a few Superbirds with the big wing on the back.

jimhemi · May 2005

Don't forget that Black Charger in the made for t.v. movie" Vanishing Point". Believe it was a 68-69, can't remember, and the State Trooper in the dessert explains why they need to ditch the caprice, "It takes a Mopar to catch a Mopar"
Of course, this one is wrecked as well.
Great Bumper sticker on the Charger too,
"My Wife? Yes
My Dog? Maybe
My Dodge, NEVER!"

bumpy · May 2005

Ah, the Superbird. A (rhymes with 'spicer') car before (rhymes with 'spicer') cars were invented. I wonder how long it will be before someone puts an ugly front clip and a giant erector set on a neoCharger?

davem2001 · May 2005

LOL! I bet the aftermarket is already working on it!

john_324 · May 2005

Give Chrylser 3 years, and I bet we see a limited production "Superbird" edition of the Charger Daytona R/T. Then it shows up in a rap video, and they'll be hot, hot, hot...

Re Vanishing Point, the original movie (one of my all-time favorite car flicks, even more so than Gone in 60 Seconds) featured a White Challenger. Did the tv remake actually have a Charger?

Re Fast N Furious, its funny how both of them glamorize the "spicer"

culture, but surreptitiously idolize the old-school muscle cars. I still get goosebumps when the Charger does a wheel-stand in the final race. I was also horrified at what became of the Barracuda in the second one...

andre1969 · May 2005

of Vanishing Point still had a white Challenger, but when a cop is trying to chase after Kowalski, he runs home in his Caprice copcar and drops it off, and picks up his own personal car, a black '68 or so Charger. A guy with him asks him what he's doing, and he says something like...

"You think you're going to catch him in a dog-pie Chevy?! It takes a Mopar to catch a Mopar!" The Charger ends up getting rolled, but I'm sure they probably rolled a junk one. Ya never know, though!

And at the end of the remake, they don't actually show the Challenger smashing up. You just see it coming at the camera, and after it passes, we fade to an explosion. In the original, at the last second they cut to a white '69 Camaro that impacts with the bulldozers. There's also a scene where you can see the Camaro, impacted against the bulldozer, with it's tail sticking up in the air after they put the fire out.

Doug, it's been ages since I've seen "Dirty Mary...", so you might be right. I just thought I remembered a scene where they had the Impala jacked up and one of the guys was underneath, working on something that broke in the suspension. I remember Mary getting miffed about something and slamming something, like the door, and making the car drop down! But maybe they messed the car up, got it running again, and THEN went and made the switch to the Charger?

dougd7 · May 2005

Are you sure it was the Impala that was jacked up? I remember at one point they sideswiped an old Ford pickup after getting the Charger and they had to jack up the front end to replace the damaged tire. The collision mangled the driver's side front end pretty bad, although it was still driveable.

grbeck · May 2005

Andre: This one was just a child molester/rapist driving around in a beat-up black Charger with a customized front-end, and the final showdown involved the Charger and a short-bus in a quarry.

Somehow, I'm having a hard time believing that there was much suspense in a showdown between a clapped-out Charger and a short bus, especially given the usual overall cheesiness of made-for-television movies.

Mention "made for television" in connection with "automotive movie," and the old "thriller" Killdozer (any other posters remember that one?) comes to mind!

stickguy · May 2005

in those movies? Remember the Dart in Duel? Gotta have good hoses in the desert!

seminole_kev · May 2005

I thought that was a Plymouth Valiant in Duel?

andre1969 · May 2005

a Valiant in Duel, a 1970 Signet, I believe. Or whatever they were calling the higher trim level that year. It was an orangish-red with what appeared to be a two-tone beige/brown vinyl interior. There was also a '57-58 Plymouth in that movie, parked behind the snake lady's gas station. And in another scene, Dennis Weaver flags down this elderly couple in what looks like a 1950 Plymouth. Now that I think about it, the school bus that was overheated was a Dodge. I think there was a '67 Dart in the movie too, toward the beginning, where they show the POV shots during the opening credits. Okay, I gotta stop now, because I'm really starting to sound like a movie junkie!

Grbeck, I don't ever remember seeing "Killdozer", but I've heard of it. And occasionally, this is gonna sound weird I know, but I'll have nightmares about a killer bulldozer. So I wonder if I actually DID see it as a child, and while I consciously don't remember it, on a subliminal level it left a disturbing impression on me? :surprise:

stickguy · May 2005

Dart/Valient, knew it was one of them. I also haven't seen the movie in probably 15 years at least!

turboshadow · May 2005

The Ken Wahl movie was called Gladiator.

Dirty Mary Crazy Larry was one of the best car chase movies ever made. I think its much better than Bullitt.

Killdozer was a horrible movie.

The Charger in The Fast and the Furious was a 70, not a 69 (picking nits am I).

There was a movie I saw on TV during the 82-83 school year that had a white Charger with the door and hood cove outlines painted in red, kinda like the old GeeBee air racers. I think it had those chrome mags that we used to call 'daisies' back in the day on it. Anyone remember that?

Anyone remember Scott Baio wiping out a sweet 70 Superbee in some godawful afterschool movie about the hazards of teen driniking?

Turboshadow

andre1969 · May 2005

in "Grand Theft Auto". The dude that played Grossman on "CHiPs" stole it out of a used car showroom to chase after his runaway bride, who was running off with Ron Howard. It was purple, but not sure if it was that "Plum Crazy" shade of purple. The headlights were also in the open position, so I'm guessing the motor for the doors was shot on it. It was also blowing some pretty heavy smoke after it smashed through the plate glass window of the showroom and sped away. Anyway, he flipped it on its roof after about 2 minutes. I forget what he stole after that...I think it was a yellow and black '59 Chevy pickup. Stupid movie, but still funny, and I guess a good 70's time capsule. It also had Marion Ross, who played Grossie's mother. And Ron's disturbing-looking brother, Clint. Come to think of it, their old man Rance was in it too. I guess Corman got the family rate with that movie!

davem2001 · May 2005

Article about the Charger Police car

http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102447

emmanuelchoke · May 2005

In the movie "Brewster McCloud", but instead of a Mustang/Charger chase, a built 68-70 Road Runner and what looked like a 70 Z/28 were used. The movie is very strange , even by my standards. It's probably the only movie in which you'll see an AMC Gremlin (driven by a fallen angel?) doing doughnuts in a parking lot.
The 70 Charger from the Fast and Furious is still for sale at volocars in the mopar section. $36,000 for a rough shell of a car.

andre1969 · May 2005

is that the Mustang actually had to be built up to perform all those stunts for that chase scene. The Charger was pretty much stock....they had to actually build up the Mustang so it could outrun the Charger!! :surprise:

And one thing that really annoyed me about that chase was toward the end, when Steve McQueen gives the Charger a bump and it goes off into the gas station. I mean, c'mon, that's like the Mach 5 going up against the Mammoth Car in "Speed Racer"!! :mad: That dainty little Stang would've bounced harmlessly off the Charger and ended up in a ditch somewhere! :P

Oh yeah, a trivia note...the stunt driver and coordinator in Bullitt was the same guy who drove the truck in Spielberg's "Duel"

utter · May 2005

"The pursuit package is basically identical to the stock R/T performance package for the Daytona, he said, adding that the engine cradle already handles the Hemi's torque load."

How certain is the adoption? Going to be cool seeing charger police cars IMO. I am confused about the car being built so similar to the R/T...there must be some sort of modifications after build right?

davem2001 · May 2005

From the article -
"We won't build the cars in batch form," said Craig Love, vice president of Chrysler's rear-wheel-drive product team. That's because police versions will not differ significantly from upscale Chargers.

Both Ford Motor Co. and General Motors generally produce police cars in batches because their assembly involves enhancing the structure to handle potholes and curbs.

As a result, law enforcement agencies sometimes must wait several months for new cruisers.

But at Chrysler, "We can flow them right into the process," Love said at a Charger event here. The automaker can speed assembly because the Charger's structure and engine cradle do not require changes for police work.

"It is already pretty heavy-duty," Love said.

The pursuit package is basically identical to the stock R/T performance package for the Daytona,

My impression is, the police package is basically a stock Charger R/T.

turboshadow · May 2005

The guy playing the cop in the remake of Vanishing Point was the guy who played Charles Manson in the original Helter Skelter, Steve Railsback.

Yep, Carey Loftin was the guy driving the truck in Duel. Was he one of the guys in the diner? I have no idea what he looked like, and always wondered if they actually showed the driver without letting us know.

Did anyone ever build a Dirty Mary, Crazy Larry replica? I've wanted too since I saw the movie, but my 69 Charger was too original to repaint, IMO. I did put 15 X 7 and 15 X 10 aluminum slots on it, though!!

Turboshadow

john_324 · May 2005

Also cool is that the bad guy driver of the Charger in Bullitt wasn't just an actor playing a driver, but rather Bill Hickman, one of Hollywood's best stunt drivers.

The DVD has a great included featurette on "Steve McQueen's Commitment to Reality" that has a lot of great behind-the-scenes looks at the car chase scene (including the full, unedited scene where the Charger careens around a corner into a parked car...it's in the movie, but badly edited).

andre1969 · May 2005

He's in this pic, but I'm not sure which one he is...

I think he's the big dude on the right. I believe George Barris is in the middle and the guy on the left is another stunt driver named Jerry Summers. I don't remember seeing him in Duel, but it's been awhile since I've seen the movie. He would've been around 56 by the time Duel came out.

As for the Charger R/T, that would actually bother me a bit that the police car isn't built up a bit more than the civilian version. If the Charger R/T is anything like the Chrysler 300C, it has a GVWR of around 4900 lb. Which is nothing to brag about when the car itself weighs over 4,000 lb!

Seems to me that unless the police spec is beefed up somehow, it's going to be awfully easy to overload it. You get four good-sized cops and their gear to go on a Dunkin Donuts run, and you're going to overload it!

Right offhand, the only police car comparison I can think of was my old '89 Gran Fury. GVWR was around 5100 lb, but the car itself only weighed around 3500 lb, so there was like a 1600 lb spread, versus 900 or less for the 300C. I don't know what a civilian Gran Fury would've been, but I suspect the M-body was just a beefy, sturdy car no matter what form it was in. Last year I looked at an '80 Cordoba (a J-body, but based on the M-body). It had a GVWR of 4800 lb, and it originally was just a slant six car! Probably weighed around 3400-3500 lb, so even here, you still had a pretty good spread between GVWR and curb weight.

My Intrepid only has like an 850 pound spread, too. I hope the cop version of that was beefed up! I accidentally overloaded the Trep last Saturday. Went to K-mart to get a bunch of 12x12 paving blocks. I remember handing one to a buddy and saying "What do you think this weighs...about 10 pounds?" "Yeah", he said. "Okay, so I'll go ahead and get 20 of them! Well, a few days later I was in Home Depot and they had the same blocks. Also had a description that said they were 23 pounds each. Oops!

Well, that made for 460 lb just in the paving blocks. Plus, we had 3 people in the car, so that was probably another 550 lb or close to it. Plus assorted junk (my car REALLY needs to be cleaned out!). So I figure we had around 1050 lb or so in that car. No wonder the danged thing seemed to be riding a bit low... :surprise:

turboshadow · May 2005

I can't tell if that guy was in Duel or not. Well, either one of them. You're right about Barris though.

I'm interested by the amount of negative camber in Dragula. I always thought that the beam front axles had a lot of positive camber to them.

Turboshadow

turboshadow · May 2005

...was driving a station wagon and trailer shadowing James Dean on his fateful journey into the afterlife.

My head is full of useless stuff like this. Must be getting old. I am. I'm 39 today

Beats the alternative...

Turboshadow

explorerx4 · May 2005

turbo... what do you mean 'it beats the alternative'? i'm 10 years older than you are, i can sort of remember being 39 (in the good old days).

since i have the bullitt movie, i'll have to see how the charger send off happens.

emmanuelchoke · May 2005

I'll sometimes use it in traffic when an aggressive driver gets twarted.

1997montez34 · May 2005

This car will be a smash hit and will be a credit to the Charger name. IMHO.Very mean looking front end. Great HEMI engine. RWD. This is a real serious car folks.

johnbirdman · May 2005

You're right montez, this is a real serious car. I drove one and may buy one monday. It seems to me that the Charger name has almost become a burden on this car. It's a powerful, muscular looking sedan. Far superior to a 1996 Impala SS which was previously the champion of unappreciated American V8's in it's time.

m1miata · May 2005

Well there are a couple of these cars on the lot in Hemi form. I must say they look better in person than in photos. Ummm, that is all I have to say, other than it did not look like a Charger to me. Looks like a modified 300. Kinda too tall and bulky looking to be a sporty looking car, but if it lights your fire - go for it! The old Intrepid & 300M looks so much sleeker.
Loren

turboshadow · May 2005

turbo... what do you mean 'it beats the alternative'?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It means, "Better than being dead." Maybe its a regional thing. All my relatives say it after they make a comment about getting old.

Turboshadow

utter · May 2005

My impression is, the police package is basically a stock Charger R/T.

Exactly. A little interesting don't you think? Is the Charger R/T THAT powerful..:-)

explorerx4 · June 2005

andre...
finally got around to watching the whole bullitt movie tonight. the mustang couldn't budge the charger on the straightaway, but then before the gas station, there was a left handed bend, the mustang was on the left, and hit the charger in the left rear fender.
i'll have to watch the movie again. i swear there was a pickup that had a paint job really similar to the go-man-go daytona theme. the main color was more orange, but the stripe looked really similar in style. since the movie was at the point just after mcqueen noticed the lurking charger, i decided just to keep watching.

stickguy · June 2005

Just read an article on the Charger in one of my magazines (I think it was last weeks Autoweek). ANyway, they loved it, and made plenty of good points about the 4 door controversy.

Daimler's abuse of the Dodge Charger legacy.

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