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Comments
Your message regarding EMF and the Lexus 450 was posted sometime ago. Can you give me an update as to what has transpired since? Have you found a solution? Have you kept the vehicle?
I manage a vehicle fleet and have been doing exhaustive research in this area as well as engaging in discussions with Toyota.
Regards.
As you probably know, there was a period of intense investigation and interest in EMF as a health threat in the 1990s, culminating with the 1999 NIEHS Report on "Health Effects from Exposure to Power-Line Frequency Electric and Magnetic Fields." The conclusions of that report significantly slowed the research being done around EMFs.
Even though the conclusion of report is that "scientific evidence suggesting that ELF-EMF exposures pose any health risk is weak," they go on to say that, although "none of the Working Group considered the evidence strong enough to label ELF-EMF exposure as a ‘known human carcinogen’ or ‘probable human carcinogen’ . . . .a majority of the members of this Working Group (19/28 voting members) concluded that exposure to power-line frequency ELF-EMF is a ‘possible human carcinogen.’ "
"Possible human carcinogen” is not something I believe we can completely ignore. The NIEHS report agrees, stating: "because virtually everyone in the United States uses electricity and, therefore, is routinely exposed to ELF-EMF, passive regulatory action is warranted such as a continued emphasis on educating both the public and the regulated community on means aimed at reducing exposures."
That should be the aim of product development: protect the public by reducing exposures. If the measurement of up to 100+mG of sustained exposure for the driver and front passengers in the GS450h proves accurate (still waiting for Lexus or NHTSA to test this car and tell me I am wrong), it brings interesting questions to light about the safety of this vehicle, regulatory requirements for manufacturers, and the responsibility of manufacturers in light of the “scientific uncertainties” about the high/sustained levels of exposure to EMF.
If you haven’t read it already, I recommend you read the executive summary of the "California Risk Evaluation for Policymakers and the Public” (2002) http://www.dhs.ca.gov/ehib/emf/RiskEvaluation/ExecSumm.pdf
This is a summary of findings from a meta-analysis of epidemiological studies by experts. Their conclusions differ somewhat from the NHIEH report and focus on a wider range of health effects (at first glance, I have not yet read either report entirely). Their conclusion: “To one degree or another, all three of the DHS scientists are inclined to believe that EMFs can cause some degree of increased risk of childhood leukemia, adult brain cancer, Lou Gehrig’s Disease, and miscarriage.” Not very reassuring.
As for my physical problems while driving this vehicle, many symptoms like this have been reported as a reaction to EMFs. The number of individuals driving the GS450h may be small (I read only 2000 were imported), but I can’t be the only one who has issues like this when driving this car. In fact, I know I am not. I realize that I may, however, be part of the minority of drivers/passengers who are sensitive to EMF (electro-sensitivity is also a scientifically debated phenomenon.)
However, I have never experienced any symptoms before driving this car.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article565208.ece
You mentioned that you were evaluating cars for fleet purchase. I want to stress that I have no knowledge about levels of exposure in other Lexus or Toyota hybrid vehicles, only the GS450h (and that data has yet to be replicated by other studies). I can only speculate that vehicles that do not place the motor and generator right next to the driver will have lower passenger compartment EMF levels than the GS450h, as the fields dissipate quickly with distance.
I sincerely hope that hybrid cars can be (and are being) produced that have little or no increased EMF exposure. We don’t want to trade one environmental hazard for another.
Anything you might offer in terms what you have uncovered in your research would be appreciated. I would be happy to be wrong about most or all of this; unfortunately, I don’t think I am.
There are now many, many cases of hybrid vehicle owners attempting to return their vehicle after discovering the associated risks with high EMF levels and negative health effects. Fleet managers need to be particularly concerned about EMF issues as drivers of fleet vehicles can spend their entire working day in the high EMF environment. In addition, commuters who spend significant time in their vehicles also need to be concerned especially if children are also occupants.
In our testing the primary source of EMF was the wiring harness that connects the AC/DC Inverter to the battery pack in the trunk. In the Prius, at any one time, the harness can carry 100 amps of current. At floor level, our readings showed levels as high as 300 milli gauss depending on the vehicle state. As an organization, we attempt to limit constant EMF exposure to less than 5 milli gauss in the work environment meaning a fleet driver would certainly be within their rights to refuse to drive a hybrid for extended periods of time. I'd love to see some health studies of some of the cab drivers whose vehicles are full hybrids. The problem is that most individuals don't know about EMF and it's associated risks as it relates to hybrid vehicles. The auto industry tries to downplay this issue and the automotive journalists out there won't tackle the issue for a variety of reasons.
I've asked Toyota Canada on separate occassions to confirm or deny our information that Prius' destined for Sweden and other countries has EMF sheilding installed to meet that country's higher automotive EMF exposure standards. Still no reply. I'm going to ask again in January.
There are shielding solutions which could be implemented at the production stage which would reduce EMF levels. Naturally these solutions would add several hundred dollars to the vehicle cost and add some additional weight.
I think if given the option in North America, many consumers would opt for the shielding if it was available.
In your case, given your symptoms, I would sell the vehicle and move on to something else. Perhaps a Bluetec Diesel where your EMF sensitivity wouldn't be an issue and you could still reduce your environmental footprint.
We need more environmentally friendlier automobiles but EMF is an issue that can't be ignored.
rks6 - any word from Toyota? And is the rumor true that they fit the European Prius (especially those bound for Switzerland) with sheilding that they don't use in the US?
I would like to hear from some overseas owners who have a thorough knowledge of their Toyota/Lexus Hybrid and could help us determine if their vehicles have shielding installed. This could be done with a thorough visual inspection.
I want to stress that I have no knowledge about levels of exposure in other Lexus or Toyota hybrid vehicles, only the GS450h (and that data has yet to be replicated by other studies).
What data has yet to be replicated?
It is possible that so much is riding on Hybrids and EVs, they do not want to rock the boat. Without hybrids companies like Lexus and Toyota could not meet the CAFE regulations.
My experience with RF and EMF are from a distance. I worked with a lot of radio techs in my career. Many died at a young age from brain cancer. I am a firm believer in electrical waves of all types being a possible hazard. I avoided getting close to MW radios just as a precaution.
You may be fighting an uphill battle. Do you have any kind of reaction to florescent lighting?
You just spoilt my day by spilling the beans on my favourite car.
I was about to purchase this car(planning for a yr now) when I stumbled on this forum. A timely discovery!.
I do hope you are wrong with the EMF readings. I am waiting to see if more owners will come forward to share any health effects so far. Only problem is that this model has only been in the market for more than 2 yrs, whereas any EMF effects may take 10-20 yrs to develope.
Is there a way to alert owners of the Lexus GS 450h worldwide to this potential health hazzard so as to pressure Lexus to respond to customers' concerns?
That is exactly correct. Just like RF takes years of exposure to cause problems. There are not enough studies. When someone dies from brain cancer it is rarely blamed on the RF the person may have been radiated by for years. I think the jury is still out on cell phone exposure for long periods. So far no one has come forth with the straight scoop on the EU Prius having better EMF shielding to meet the strict standards over there. This subject was brought up by at least one Insight owner in the past. He left with no solid information. Of course his Honda dealer was of NO value. They are not going to admit to anything.
I'm happy to report that approaching 5000 miles on my 2008 450h, the car is remarkable. I spend 2-3 hours in my car each day commuting in the DC area and haven't had any problems, tingling or otherwise.
We purchased one of the first Highlander Hybrids and at 55,000 miles it is steady, consistent and averages 25 mpg. The HH boards on this awesome Edmunds site are very active. Many more users/owners. With far fewer owners of the 450h, it would seem that this thread sucked the life out of the board, but to my chagrin.
I do hope that fellow owners will help revive discussion on topics of mutual interest, a rate of discussion that came to a grinding halt when this current thread appeared. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. For me, the 450h is a remarkable machine. It is agile, high performance, loaded, nimble, comfortable, fairly quiet and produces a consistent 25-26 mpg. My old TL was 19-20 under identical driving conditions. The TL was one heck of a value. The Lexus 450h is more than any right thinking person would spend on a car. But with the money spent, oh what a ride!
This is my dream car & I would love to own one soon. Your enjoyment of the 450h just confirms what I love about this car . Here in Australia, only about 1000 450h were sold so far. It is a small market here & no one seems to know or care about the EMF effects. A friend who works in the car industry has advised me to look elsewhere so I am torn between love & fear.
Let's hope more 450h owners will join this thread & share their experiences with this car.
You can find the presentation here under "Past Events": http://www.apeg.bc.ca/services/divisions/med/index.html
Mr. Stremler’s talk was entitled “Hybrid Vehicles for Municipal Fleets.” In the linked slideshow (“The Hybrid World”), Mr. Stremler, on slide 23, presents six “Hybid Myths.” Myth #5: “Electromagnetic Fields in hybrids are harmful to human health.” Immediately below, Mr. Stremler refutes this “myth” in the sub-bullet, stating: “EMFs inside and outside of Toyota hybrids are at the same low levels as conventional gasoline vehicles. Therefore there are no additional health risks to drivers, passengers or by-standers.”
What? First, that doesn’t refute the “myth” that “Electromagnetic Fields in hybrids are harmful to human health.” In fact, it suggests that at elevated levels EMF in hybrids may be harmful. Second, and most disturbing, this statement, according to data that has been collected, this is simply not true. I understand what is at stake for Toyota, but statements like the one in this slideshow are misleading at best. If Mr. Stremler and Toyota have the independent research to indicate that this is the case, they should produce it and make it public.(It is possible, of course, that they have and I am not aware of it.)
If his statement that, “EMFs inside and outside of Toyota hybrids are at the same low levels as conventional gasoline vehicles," proves to be true, I would be relieved and happy to be wrong, but I have not been able to produce a EMF reading in any "conventional gasoline vehicle" even remotely similar to the levels found in the 450h. (The highest non-hybrid reading has been around 3.2mG.)
Thought you might find Toyota Canada's statements in the slideshow interesting.
http://www.hybridcars.com/safety/electromagnetic-fields-in-hybrids.html
RKS6, you had mentioned that you were going to ask Toyota again about their hybrids to Scandinavia being EMF-shielded. Can you please tell us if they responded to you or they are still stalling? I so would like to get a hybrid - but this vexing issue is keeping me from it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17572456?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEn- trez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVLinkOut
Edmunds pulled down the post. I don't see any mechanism on this site for corresponding directly with participants if they so choose. If there is a method I'm not aware of let me know.
I will re-phrase my information.
Jim Motavalli is currently researching EMF in hybrid vehicles. If you would like to share your experiences google search Jim Motavalli on your own.
Regards,
Yesterday a message appeared from you about a colleague looking for information for a magazine article. When I came back to the forum today that post and a subsequent related post seemed to have disappeared. What happened? Did you do you pull the posts down; was it the Forum moderator?
jhow
Am I hurting the engine in any way, short-term or long-term? I believe I've read in the past that lower octane may give poorer performance and may impact fuel economy, but I haven't seen it. I'm certainly not going to risk damaging my engine to say $4-$5 per tank, but I haven't seen anything to say that this will occur.
As far as the cables from the batteries under the rear seat to the electric motor, the cables are conducting current to and from the motor.. It is an electric circuit. The current is flowing from the positive battery terminal and returning to the negative terminal. That means that EMF induced by the positive is cancelled by the EMF induced by the negative currents. The EMF's are self cancelling
Most measurements will measure the earth's magnetic field. which varies from 300
to 600 milli- Gauss. EMF's are not detectable by smell.
The Plasmacluster filter has 3 levels of filters which filter successively smaller particles. It is called a micron filter. The last stage adds negative ions to counteract the accumulating positive ions. I looked in the fuses in the owners manual. There is not a specific fuse for the filter or it would be simple to disable
I look at positive ions as havining on OH ion Strong bases have positive ions
A negative ion could be viewed as having a H ion. Strong acids have Hydrogen ions
If you look at the reaction between an OH and H you get HOH or H2O.
I find it difficult to explain the symptoms you are experiencing. They come and go in severity, so it is hard to pinpoint.
I have not had my heater blow any air while off.
I have it set on auto with my temp set at 68. My wife has her side set at 72. Nothing happens when heat is called for until the engine has warmed up enough for heat. So even when my heater is "on"" it may delay blowing any air.
The plastic components emit gases as they age. It may be that is what you are smelling as a metallic taste. I have had vehicles that looked like someone had smoked cigarettes in them as dirty as the inside windows got from plastic out- gassing. Clean your inside windows and look at the paper towels and see if they don't show up as some what dirty from the plastic out gases that collect on them
"""
The mere fact that Toyota has taken pains to isolate the electrical system I think speaks clearly to their assessment of risk and I applaud them for taking safety measures (even if ultimately for their own good) quite a few years before this issue will become one of common public concern.