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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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With the exception of Hummer and maybe Saab I dont see any of GM's divisions as expendable. GM has a broad range of midsize cars that appeal to different people. A lot of Aura buyers wouldn't drive and Impala or Malibu.
As for luxury vs non luxury, I think it's pretty obvious that Hummer, Buick and Cadillac are luxury brands and the rest are not. I dont see what's so confusing. It's apparent that Saturn isnt a competitor for Acura due to its pricing. The only Saturn product that can cost well over $30k is the Outlook.
Saturn is the new Olds. It will not compete with Pontiac. There will be no RWD Saturn sports sedans. Pontiac will not get an Outlook or Astra. The main common ground between the brands will be Aura/G6 and Sky/Solstice. Most of the people GM is gunning for with Saturns wouldnt be caught dead in a Pontiac. I cant see anyone who would buy the Astra looking at anything in the Pontiac showroom.
I wouldnt go there. Perhaps Ford doesnt have the money but GM has been increasing its R&D spending recently. I think they will be spending between $8B and $9B this year which is more than last year. I'm pretty sure only Toyota invests more into product development. I haven't heard of any significant reliability issues with GM's DOHC V6.
Don't bet the farm on 'no RWD Saturn sports sedans', GM does have that Theta platform down under, that is already being used with the 3.6 and V8s, and would seem a natural point of differentiation, if Saturn is going to reestablish itself as a 'premium' GM brand.
Perhaps, but the Mazda6 is also much better looking than Accord and sells for much less than the Accord or the TSX...now that is a real thing of beauty .
(also I don't like leather seats, so that eliminated any consideration of TSX for me)
The '08 Accord coupe design does look good to me...presumably the sedan will be similar.
And the TSX requires premium fuel.
You'll probably be surprised to know that Ford spends the most on R&D and has for the last several years. And even with the current situation at Ford Fields and Mulally have committed to not cutting R&D or product development funding (realizing that product is the key to long term success).
Now whether they're spending that R&D money wisely is an entirely different topic.
NO WAY - the Toyotas (and even Hyundais) of the world, coming out with with completely new cars and drivetrains, and building new plants that cost billions all over the country. Ford, OTH, closing plants, and continuing to use old drivetrains, platforms etc. Happen to have any numbers, or is this an opinion?
...tuning felt different than Fusion, a little softer... The up side of this softer setup is a very quiet and compliant street ride, fitting nicely between Fusion and Zephyr.
http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/reviews/rt2519a.shtml
Drove both S and SE in the fusion and the cheaper Milan trim level. All were 4 cyl.
Steve
And don't get me wrong, sharing of the platform is a good thing. Only way for car manufacturers to make money. People do not complain that their G35 is the same as the 350Z Nissan now do they?
-Loren
Table to illustrate the reliability ratings of 450,000 vehicles by manufacturer. Position Manufacturer Incidence rate (%)
1 Mazda 8.04%
2 Honda 8.90%
3 Toyota 15.78%
4 Mitsubishi 17.04%
5 Kia 17.39%
6 Subaru 18.46%
7 Nissan 18.86%
8 Lexus 20.05%
9 Mini 21.90%
10 Citroen 25.98%
11 Daewoo 26.30%
12 Hyundai 26.30%
13 Peugeot 26.59%
14 Ford 26.76%
10 Citroen 25.98%
11 Daewoo 26.30%
12 Hyundai 26.30%
13 Peugeot 26.59%
14 Ford 26.76%
15 Suzuki 27.20%
16 Porsche 27.48%
17 Fiat 28.49%
18 BMW 28.64%
19 Vauxhall 28.77%
20 Mercedes 29.90%
21 Rover 30.12%
22 Volvo 31.28%
23 Volkswagen 31.44%
24 Jaguar 32.05%
25 Skoda 32.12%
26 Chrysler 34.90%
27 Audi 36.74%
28 Seat 36.87%
29 Renault 36.87%
30 Alfa Romeo 39.13%
31 Saab 41.59%
32 Land Rover 44.21%
33 Jeep 46.36%
Some info to note from that page:
"Some 450,000 vehicles, all between three and nine years old, from 33 manufacturers, were surveyed across the US and UK. The results are based on the number of failures reported during a given one-year period for every 100 Warranty Direct policies sold. The results (see table) make interesting reading. "
WAY. At least through 2005. Can't find 2006 numbers. This doesn't mean they spend wisely or get a lot in return, just that they spend the most.
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/dec05/comments/1184
December 6th, 2005
THE SPECTRUM R&D REPORT
Who spends the most on research and development? In our annual review of corporate commitments to this vital category, we find that four of the top five spots are filled by auto makers: Ford Motor Co., DaimlerChrysler AG, Toyota Motor Corp., and General Motors Corp. The top investor in R&D, Ford, spent US $7.4 billion in 2004.
if this really was 'surveyed across the US and UK' then where is GM? Saab and Vauxhall are minor players compared to Chevy etc. Opel is missing as well.
It is interesting to note, however, that the "Japanese" mfgrs dominate - or maybe this is some sort of European anti-Ford bias against the Mondeo etc?
In case you missed it, Saturn hasnt abandoned its sales philosophy but they have upgraded their vehicles. I'm not sure why you think they arent the same company just because they have a real lineup.
The Theta platform supports the Vue, Equinox and Torrent, its not a car platform. As I said, Saturn will not be duplicating Pontiac's lineup anytime soon. They will have two common vehicles in the future. The Zeta RWD platform is for the Camaro, G8 and Impala not for Saturns. You are talking about "rebadged chevys" when there is no obvious rebadging between the brands. There is no Chevy Outlook or Sky. If you call the Cobalt and Astra rebadge jobs than I have to question your definition of rebadging. The two cars look nothing alike and dont share interior parts. Same applies to Vue and Equinox. That is like saying the Avalon and Es350 are rebadges just because they share a platform.
well I guess it's all Greek to me, but this would be the one I was talking about - called Holden down in Australia. At this point don't know that even GM could tell you where they might go with this, Saturn or otherwise.
A-VTEC will most likely first appear in the 2008 Accord, which makes the introduction of that model even more highly anticipated than it already was. We were also led to believe that A-VTEC will first appear on a 4 cylinder engine. Will it be SOHC or DOHC? Will it be a variation of the K-series or R-series, or a whole new engine? Perhaps most intriguing to me is whether or not this technology will appear on the J-series V6? If it works as predicted, the life of the J-series could be extended significantly. Class leading top end power could be matched with vastly improved midrange torque and fuel economy – all while remaining smaller and lighter by virtue of using a SOHC design. Pay close attention in the coming months for official news from Honda on this exciting new technology.
-Loren
I have to wonder, if both this survey and one posted previously are both sponsored by Warranty Direct, why are the results so drastically different?
And therein lies a bit of the problem... when people think of Saturn, those that know it... they remember the little SL1/SL2 cars. The image of Saturn isn't one of mid upscale luxury and Saturn doesn't have the name recognition that some other nameplates have.
They are now trying to sell upgraded vehicles and ask more for them... this isn't a lineup problem, its an image problem. You may not care about a car's image when you go shopping but a lot of people just don't have enough knowledge of cars to associate Saturn to the new lineup they have and thus never even bother looking... meantime the Aura just ends up sitting on dealer lots. GM gave Saturn a great lineup, but it doesn't know how to brand/sell this to the public and thus Saturn sales are not skyrocketing.
Not the same cars (although mostly the same mfgrs.) - got to be careful about the silly Internet, you can find info on all kinds of things that don't really apply.
Uh...No, They have both US and UK data. The link I posted is to the US data. If you click on the little "i" you can read this:
Reliabilty Index
The American Index has been researched from over 450,000 vehicle records. Unlike our UK analysis, repair costs are not included in this analysis and the index reflects solely the incidence of failure as a percentage - the higher the percentage, the higher the risk of failure.
Click on the UK flag and you will get UK data.
As for awareness, that is what advertising is about. It will take a while, but people will learn about Saturn's new products. Again, I dont see these issues as reasons no to buy a Saturn. Are you saying you wouldnt get one because you feel the brand awareness isnt where it should be? I dont buy cars strictly on the bases of it selling 300k+ copies per year.
I also dont get why you feel Satrun is a semi-upscale brand. The Aura and Outlook are priced in line with their competition at Toyota and Honda. Saturn isnt putting "premium" pricing on their vehicles.
Beats me. I don't defend the results of either, or CR, I'm just putting it out there for all to see as one more source.
Well, respectfully, by that logic, Consumer Reports isn't valid because it doesn't survey EVERY SINGLE OWNER, true? 450,000 is a LOT of vehicles if you ask me, better than some surveys probably report from. Seems like a valid size sample to me.
not exactly, the CR survey and those survey results do classify failure types within some categories - eg mechanical, body, electrical etc. etc. As such, I regard it as a more accurate indicator of not only overall reliability but also a general idea or possible areas and severity of failures. Pat is right, if a warranty company is simply regurgitating the percentage of claims, we don't know what they are paying to have fixed, and it would also make some sense that the Korean brands would do well, simply because of the extended powertain warranty takes care of those problems and the warranty co. never hears about it.
My point is that there are zillions of car buyers, myself included, who never even thought of paying Warranty Direct for anything. I just think a survey should be statistically accurate and I don't see how a survey of Warranty Direct customers tells anything more than the percentage of Warranty Direct customers who have used what they paid for - no matter the severity/importance of the problem that generated the claim.
Substitute CR in that statement if you like. But I didn't say that.
And you'll notice, I didn't put those words in your mouth, or say that you felt CR was valid, purposefully so. My point of saying that was that many people put a lot of stock in CR's reports because of the large number of people sampled.
I was implying that a survey like this seems as widely sampled as Consumer Reports, so it is likely to be somewhat accurate on problems per manufacturer (although it doesn't say what they are - you dont want them either way). it's not as if someone sampled 500 owners.
I think GM is realizing they don't need to have every car in every nitch in every market. They need to have cars where they can be profitable. As they get more efficient as a company, they can look at expanding into more markets.
Its not about market share, its about profit per car.
I know I'm just one consumer of a midsize sedan, but it would certainly save me a trip to the Saturn dealer by learning of no 4-cylinder option.
In the UK data they do weight based on cost. This data shows things like toyota having a low problem rate but the cost per problem is high.
Edmunds specifically gives anticipated repair costs in their TCO. I have also compared costs of extended warranty from the same source (my credit union) on various models and the prices do vary, but not by as much as people's impressions of reliability differences seems to.
For example a VW was about $1500 while a Honda was about $1000 for the same warranty. I would not choose one car over another based on a difference of $500 in expected repair costs over 7 years or 100,000 miles.
What I get out of all these various bits of info is that there is not all that much variation anymore. Particularly when you look at costs rather than rates of problems. With a few exceptions (Jaguar comes to mind) it just does not make all that much difference which car you buy, they are just about all pretty reliable these days.
How are they going to make profits when they're already starting all the discounting so early into the year? Instead of building 5 mid-sized sedans - Malibu, CTS, Lacrosse, G6, Aura, they should focus their engineering on building 2 kick [non-permissible content removed] cars, one mainstream, one luxury and sell them like hotcakes. Too many product lines means more parts and different factories, etc... higher overheads. There's a huge advantage to streamlining their lineup to the two tier model that's so successful for cars as shown by Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infiniti.
Perhaps, but sometimes you can get multiple things fixed in one trip other times the problems are taken care of during a regular maintenance trip.
I had a Stealth for a few years; Mitsubishi parts are a bit pricey in my view. Expensive though usually falls into the German and Swedish cars realm.
-Loren