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Comments
In 18,000 mi I've never had a reading as low as 42 mpg for an entire tank but I can venture a guess how it might occur. The fuel bladder in a Prius has a significant effect on the amount of gas apparently used. There is potentially a significant difference in fuel tank capacity in the fuel bladder if the weather is cool, it's a new Prius, the fillup is done early in the morning and in the filling equipment itself.
The TDI certainly did well in exceeding the EPA.
For sure. They probably did not fill the tank to start with and the tires were not inflated to 90 lbs etc etc. The last cross country test of the Jetta TDI vs the Prius gave almost identical results. Cross country at 75+ MPH, the Jetta TDI will beat the Prius on mileage every time. In stop and go with very slow speeds as in the Vancouver, BC 200 mile run, the Prius will have a better chance.
To me this was the biggest plus. It beat even the Accord Hybrid for quiet comfort.
For comfort, quiet and highway handling, drivers found the TDI had significant advantages over every other car in the test. It would have been AutoWeek's choice, in other words, for an easy day trip on the interstates, regardless of fuel economy.
Anyone that wants one better get it quick. There will be a shortage till they get the next VW diesel ready for the US market. Pretty bad when the best mileage sedan in America is being shoved out by ignorance in Washington DC and CA. Also the only high mileage vehicle capable of using 100% renewable "Made in the USA" fuel.
1. Driving technique has much to say when it comes to fuel economy. It has been known for several decades that a light right foot always improves fuel economy, without regard to the type of drivetrain that is in place.
2. Prius type hybrids always seem to better in stop and go driving, whereas diesels always seem to do better on the open road/highway.
3. As to greenness, both are green in their own respect. Both are dirty in their own respect. So to say one is cleaner/greener than another is a waste of words and time.
Now is not the time to own a Prius.
Is the Accord Hybrid quiet?
The reason I ask is that I am in one of these shared cars organizations. This is a service somewhat like a co-op for cars where a number of people sign up to use cars parked around the city. We reserve use on the web and then pay a modest hourly sum and mileage. You pick up and return the car from its parking spot with a key card. No human interaction necessary.
Anyway, the car I used over the weekend is a brand new (only 900 miles) Civic Hybrid. After hearing so much about the refined quiet of Hondas, I was somewhat surprised to discover the engine is just a little noisy and even rough.
I think the stoplight shut down is pretty cool (and oft used in Brooklyn - sheesh!). You sure could tell it was stopping and starting. I am no stop light racer. If you are, you definitely do not want a Civic Hybrid, as there is a brief lag before the engine starts.
All in all, I had no problem with the car. But it sure was not whisper quiet.
Now that the ULSD is set to hit the market, I think the VW TDI would be my prefence.
Too bad about Daimler dropping the diesel from the Liberty. Seems to me a torquey low sulfur diesel in a Wrangler would be a match made in heaven. Perhaps Daimler does not have the drive train to go with the diesel?
I would love to retrofit my CRD with an NOx scrubber but alas such is life.
As to your experience driving the Civic Hybrid, I had a similar experience driving a Prius this past December. Engine starts were abrupt, it was noisy (mostly road noise) and the steering was really numb.
zodiac,
Pretty gutsy call, however, I have great faith in your psychic powers.
I have written to a couple Jeep dealers about a Wrangler diesel. That would be a fun machine.
I would love to see the CRD in a 300. They have them in Europe and they are very quick. Plus they go very far on a gallon of #2.
We can hope. It really seems optimal. Have you driven the EU version? If so, what do you think?
Yes that is what I had expected.
The Civic had a brief lag when you put the accelerator down. Not enough to be annoying, but I certainly did feel it start up again each time. I will try and be more careful with the brake and acceleration next time and report back. (the Civic happens to be the closest car in the service to my apartment)
Could be the V8 is just smoother than the 4?
Date posted: 06-05-2006
DETROIT — Only a week after announcing plans to offer a new turbodiesel engine in the 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee, Chrysler said it will discontinue the diesel edition of the Jeep Liberty after model year 2006.
Chrysler said the older diesel engine that is offered in the Liberty doesn't meet tougher federal emissions standards that are being phased in for model-year 2007.
The Liberty offers a 2.8-liter four-cylinder common-rail diesel that delivers 160 horsepower and 295 pound-feet of torque. The EPA city/highway ratings are 21/26 mpg. The engine is made by VM Motori, a DaimlerChrysler subsidiary.
The Grand Cherokee gets a new Mercedes-Benz 3.0-liter V6 CRD that delivers 215 hp and 376 lb-ft of torque, with projected EPA ratings of 19/23 mpg. In fact, the same engine already is being installed in the Grand Cherokee and Commander in Europe and other overseas markets, as well as in such export models as the Chrysler 300C sedan and wagon.
The Liberty is slated to get a full redesign for model-year 2008. Chrysler is said to be evaluating several diesel options for the next-generation model.
What this means to you: Getting diesel into the U.S. is a tricky dance, but the demand appears to be there on a limited basis. If customers want it, someone will figure a way to get it over here.
A Wrangler with a diesel is fascinating to say the least. They are very capable vehicles and with a diesel, that capability will be enhanced.
My feeling is that with MY 2008, we will see more diesels including one in a Liberty and/or a Wrangler.
A Civic is way noisier than an Accord V6, especially under acceleration. So I'd imagine the HCH with a smaller ICE would be even more so.
Now if only Ford/volvo/chevy would follow suit.
There's simply no need.
1,200 miles of Road-Rally through Minnesota did that already.
The two Classic Prius averaged 48.5 MPG. The Civic-Hybrid CVT got 46 MPG. And the Jetta TDI Automatic only got 42 MPG.
JOHN
You need to run it with current Vehicles. The older VW auto transmissions were not nearly as efficient as the DSG transmission used today. I would say VW Jetta has advanced while the Prius went somewhat backward. At least by results from recent cross country events using the Prius II. The MPG results were swapped with what you experienced using the Prius Classic and an older Jetta TDI. Did not see what MY VW was chosen for the cross country event. Your response was predicted.
Again an interesting comparison. Under the same conditions I would swag my TDI 5 speed manual would get closer to 50 mpg. Since the hybrids do not come with manual or DSG transmissions I wonder (however academically) what the fuel mileage would be.
The real point is those figures would be beyond HOT if I (you or anyone) did not HAVE to prepay for the higher fuel mileage (want is of course a whole different option). This is the real reason why (for me for example in a plain jane commute) chosing a Honda Civic made economic sense, even as if it only gets 38-41 mpg.
Again this is not to take anything away from the Prius, HCH and/or TDI. The price difference for a Prius/HCH/TDI was 12,500/7,500/5,500 respectively.
Sooner or later the Prius/Hybrid folks are still going to have to acknowledge using the one trick pony fuel unleaded regular.
The "data" from 2002 is as bogus now as it was in 02. The Hybrid Road Rally is the type of misrepresentative staged event that caused months of non-constructive bickering.
The 02 TDI obtained higher mpg than the 04 PD unit injector TDI engine and obtaining 50 mpg with an automatic is easily achieved. 42 mpg average too low to be credible.
There's simply no need.
1,200 miles of Road-Rally through Minnesota did that already.
The two Classic Prius averaged 48.5 MPG. The Civic-Hybrid CVT got 46 MPG. And the Jetta TDI Automatic only got 42 MPG.
JOHN
Fuel was expensive in Santa Barbara (but what else isn't,even Ophra has digs in the vicinity) , (3.39 per gal) so I decided to make it home to fill at the corner store for 3.19 per gal.
A resource such as GreenHybrid or GreenDiesel
In the absence of this real data we are left with meaningless comparo's whether structured or best-effort-unbiased.
Imagine if somehow all the vehicles in the market were somehow required to report fuel/type used and distance driven. If this were somehow monitored by a 'use tax' as proposed in some places then the need for the EPA numbers would be eliminated.
With these databases each model and fuel-used could be summarized in millions of data points and a 'true' FE value would be known. The City/Hwy distinction would be lost but the 'True-Cost-to-Own',to coin a phrase :surprise: , would be readily available. All this data is available now there just is no incentive to gather it and sythesize it for public use.
This is essentially the crux of the matter on the Prius EPA vs Prius "reality". I think it is the illustration of the classic Shakespearian line: much ado about not much!!
The lab doesn't match the real world!! Yet we poh poh the diesel side when it actually gets better than the lab? Or call it unscientific or anecdotal? Come on folks, get over it.
From a European autoblog, Auto Express, today.
quote:
Tuesday 30th May 2006
Prius to be given turbo boost
Our insiders have blown the cover on a turbocharged prototype which is being tested in Japan. Auto Express was the first magazine to reveal plans for a 100mpg-plus successor to the Prius in issue 904 - and now we can spill the beans on how it will be done. In its efforts to come up with a car that blends economy, low emissions and performance at an affordable price, Toyota has decided to use a lean-burn 1.8-litre turbo engine. Meanwhile, the THS-II hybrid system will be upgraded with efficient lithium ion batteries, which will allow the electric motor to deliver greater performance because the cells recharge quickly and hold more power for longer. To further improve efficiency, it's also thought that Toyota is considering a plug-in system, similar to that used on the Amberjac Projects Prius. The socket will allow owners to top up the battery when it's parked. Insiders at Toyota are excited about the newcomer, and are promising greater performance and super-low emissions for less than £20,000. unquote
Under $24,000 at current rates. YMMV ( your market may vary )
Under $24,000 at current rates. YMMV ( your market may vary )
20000 UK pounds is over $30000 US.
YCMV (Your conversion may vary).
Also to further confuse the issue, the article being written in the UK uses Imp Gal. Thus 100 mi/Imp Gal converts to abt 83 mi/US Gal.
Apparently the Toledo factory will make a version of the little Jeep with a 2.8 litre diesel and 5 speed manual tansmission for export only.
Mileage figures are not available, but I would guess the diesel will significantly outperform the new V6 with the 6 speed manual. And, as mentioned earlier, the little diesel will certainly be able to run on readily available bio-diesel, processed from restaurant waste and other recycled sources.
This really seems like a case of our regs cutting off the nose to spite the face. I hope Daimler figures out a way to make the 2.8 meet US NOX and particulate standards quickly.
Or is Daimler making this for export to Europe and elsewhere overseas?
http://www.worldstyling.com/web/product_detail.php?id=911&PHPSESSID=dc3631bdce6a- 646892e6e466935c3a6e
6 June 2006
VW’s flex-fuel sales in Brazil
Effective this month, Volkswagen Brazil is halting production of gasoline-only models in the country. All vehicles with gasoline engines will now roll off the line flex-fuel-capable.
While a number of manufacturers offer flex-fuel vehicles in Brazil, VW is the first to switch entirely to the technology across its entire line-up.
VW introduced its flex-fuel 1.6-liter Goal in March 2003, followed by the 1.0-liter Fox in October 2003 with the Bosch flex-fuel engine management system (earlier post).
VW has been a leader in the Brazilian flex-fuel market from the beginning, and now has a 35% market share, with aggregate flex-fuel sales of 575,111 units through April 2006. The Goal and the Fox together represent of those 464,087 units.
More than 75% of all new vehicles sold in Brazil are flex-fuel. Brazil offers E100 (100% ethanol) at its gas stations, as well as E25 (25% ethanol and 75% gasoline). About 20% of Brazil’s transport fuel market is ethanol, compared with about 1% world-wide.
This is not a good thing.
I had not seen this before but in another forum it was pointed out that it's more than the Hollywood glitterati who seem to be making a statement. Corporate incentives?
BoA
This is not a good thing.
Very little. Brasil is a large country. Almost as large as the United States. Just as some parts of the US are forest, some desert, some prairie, so too does Brasil have differing topography.
The prime sugar cane growing regions are not in the Amazon rain forest, but in the central grass land areas. Now prairie destruction comes with its own issues. But it is not the same as tropical rain forest destruction.
Most of the rain forest pressures are the result of insatiable global demand for hard wood and cattle grazing.
This is the kind of corporations I want to align myself with. They are doing something about our use of fossil fuels.
Companies using biodiesel
I'm not very familiar with DC products here, but I haven't heard anything about the CRD engine going into the TJ.
It's only available in the Liberty.
Dont you mean an insatiatable BRAZILIAN desire to make money from the global demand? (and I suspect they are selling CHEAP!)
------------------
A national finance magazine is looking to interview consumers who are looking to purchase a hybrid vehicle and are looking at it from a financial standpoint, hoping to save money from the high cost of fuel. Please send an e-mail to ctalati@edmunds.com no later than Saturday, June 10, 2006 by 5:00 PM PT/8:00 PM ET containing your daytime contact information and the hybrid vehicle you are considering.
Thanks,
Chintan Talati
Corporate Communications
Edmunds.com
why is it that you guys are so hung up on proving that hybrid buyers made a bad financial decision?
ANY new car purchase is a stupid financial decision when compared to the alternatives, such as buying that very same car used.
I know - you want to hold hybrid buyers to a different standard because you think they take a holier than thou approach. Just say it!!!!!
In regard to the "used" hybrid market, there are not many who frequent this board who have bought USED hybrids, let alone have experience (time and mileage) with them.
So again, I have absolutely nothing against anyone whose ideal car is a hybrid and in fact buys it. Just don't tout the "holier than thou types of issues when some to all of the issues has been disproven.
40,000+ miles annually x 5-6 yrs.
Camry 4c Fuel usage: 1335 gal / yr x 6 yrs @ 2.50/gal = $18,000 gas cost
Prius Fuel usage: 800 gal/yr x 6 yrs @ 2.50/gal = $12,000 gas cost
This ignores any tax incentives. The Prius cost just under $24000 vs a new LE Camry with the same features @$20,000.
It is an unusual situation but never say never
I stated that the attitude was of the hybrid owner (well, what someone thought the hybrid owners' attitude is/was}: "I know - you want to hold hybrid buyers to a different standard because you think they take a holier than thou approach."
as to new vs used - you are missign my point. EVERY new car purchase is STUPID from a purely financial standpoint, so it's not fair to ONLY criticize hybrid buyers for financial stupidity. Hold Hybrid buyers to the SAME standards that you hold ALL car buyers. A new TDI purchase is STUPID financially compared to buying a one-year old TDI. See what I mean?