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Comments
In short, I had the problem and because of it, I no longer own the vehicle. I paid $500 for a fix that didn't work that came directly out of the ford manual. The second fix was $4700, which included the differential module and everything it controls. I was in Florida when this was happening so I called my dealer in Illinois and they said they had 2 500's that had the same exact problem. They had been in contact with Ford and the determined that the CVT was the source of the problem and it needed to be replaced for a cost of $7000. Replacing it with a rebuilt CVT would be $5000.
My suggestion would be to get rid of it while the problem is still intermittent. We were able to trade it in without the dealer realizing it had a problem. I didn't like doing it and I am sure others will criticize me for doing it. I rationalized it by buying a car from a company that was owned by Ford.
Actually, before you go to that step, I would suggest calling Ford customer service. Eventually, if they get enough complaints about this problem, they might finally decide to help. This problem seems to start happening after 60,000 miles. I didn't have any luck and worse yet, Ford was very difficult to deal with. Not returning phone calls, giving me a different story every time I called, etc. It was very frustrating as you can imagine.
So much for Ford having quality as good as Toyota... Oh that's right, that is only initial quality not quality at 60,000 miles. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
To be fair, I have a Focus that has 118,000 miles on it and it has no problems. Just tires, oil, transmission fluid, Antifreeze, brakes, etc. Just basic maintenance for the most part. Only problems have been a broken trunk lock because it got frozen and a small leak of antifreeze that I still need to get fixed.
Not to be too harsh, but that is a 2005 FS, which was the early version. I think later models are more reliable.
As much as I liked my Freestyle and the CVT, I traded for a more conventional 08 Taurus X in part to prevent those kind of servicing issues as time goes by and the limited servicing knowledge that exists today dwindles - not to mention parts.
Also, is there anything unique about changing the CVT fluid? For example, with a traditional automatic transmission you can drain and fill (which doesn't get all of the old fluid out), or you can use a machine that exchanges all of the old fluid. Which method do the Ford dealers use with the CVT or does it vary?
Any other CVT maintenance tips since I plan to keep this car a long time?
I took my Freestyle to 2 Ford dealerships and got different answers. The first one in Southwest Florida is the biggest in the area and I think I remember reading that they are the biggest in Florida. Also, the dealership in the Chicago area is one of the biggest if not one of the biggest in the Chicago area and have an extremely high customer satisfaction rate. I considered both to be reputable. I still think the one in Chicago is, but the one in Florida is not in my opinion.
The Florida dealer said it would cost $4300 for the AWD rear assembly which included the DEM. After I requested to show me where they were getting the information, they showed me the manual from Ford. They said they believed the problem to be in the DEM, but you couldn't buy only the DEM. You had to buy the whole rear Haldex AWD system. With labor, the cost was $4700.
The Chicago dealer had said they were talking to Ford about 2 other vehicles (500's) with the exact same problem as mine and that Ford had told them that it was related to the CVT. The dealer didn't figure this out on their own; they got the info from Ford. Why would they lie to me? They knew I wasn't going to pay for the fix and was either going to try to trade it in on a non-Ford vehicle or Ford was going to help me out. They wanted the vehicle because they felt it would give them more leverage with Ford. I took the other route after Ford customer service treated me poorly (not returning phone calls, giving a different story every time, etc.); I traded it in on a non-Ford vehicle. Considering, I have buying Ford's on A or Z plan for 18 years, you can only imagine how angry I was at Ford to buy a non-Ford vehicle and forgo the A plan pricing.
Also, from my reading of problems, the 2005 2 wheel drive Freestyle should be a great car and I wish I had purchased that instead. The 2 systems in the 2005 Freestyle that are the most expensive to fix and most likely to fail are the Haldex AWD system and the CVT. Ford has removed the CVT from the design. I think that speaks loads to its problems with longevity. I am not aware of any redesign of the Haldex, but its problems could have been related to its integration with the CVT so I hesitate to criticize it by itself.
Fordwrench, other than asking if they have techs certified on the Haldex and/or the CVT, what else can we do to make sure the dealers have techs that are certified? I was told by both dealers that they had certified techs, but I have no idea if they were telling my the truth and no reason to doubt them.
Ditto that here. I wanted to get DRL on my 2006, and I knew it was just a matter of changing a setting in the software. I had to take in the detailed description of how to do it before the dealer was able to turn on my DRL.
Nope, from my reading it was a matter of cost. The steel timing belt was made in Germany - actual German steel - and it was very expensive. When GM and Ford decided to joint manufacture a 6 speed AT, it just wasn't worth the $$ for Ford to continue with the CVT.
There were other issues - the CVT wasn't rated to the full HP of the 3.5L engine, so they would have either had to de-tune the engine or re-design the CVT. Either was a less economic choice than simply shifting :P to the 6 speed that had already been developed.
Ulp, how can I get out of this one. Maybe the engine does use a steel timing belt on the OHC? :surprise:
Oh well, yeah, I goofed, I meant drive belt.
The garage had a non-OEM crate engine they would have have put in for $4,000, but the warranty on it was one year (don't recall the details but I assume it was one year/12,000 mile warranty on the aftermarket and 5/60 on the Ford one).
Were you following the built in maintenance minder?
I found that I had to slam it down, you can't just push it. Obviously there should be no debris under the latch (I always had this due to my messy offspring)! It didn't take a HUGE slam, but a definite push from the upright position.
The darn thing wouldn't go down at all if one just dropped it gently.
The big issue here that concerns me is Ford recommends 5W20. This is very thin oil that does not provide enough of a cushion for engine protection except for in perfect conditions. The reason Ford mandated 5W20 is because it allows marginally better fuel economy than the more traditional 5W30, but it doesn't offer as much protection. Ford swears up and down that the 5W20 oil is up to the task, but I believe there is no margin should you either have the wrong type of oil (non semi or full synthetic), or if you go beyond the recommend oil change intervals. I personally use 5W30 in my Freestyle because I know it is better for the engine and don't believe that a 1% increase in fuel economy is worth risking my engine. I also never go past 5,000 miles between changes. Those oil life monitors are wildly optimistic in my opinion. Some people think they actually test the oil, no, they just use a calculation to determine oil life based on best case scenario. If you'd rather go longer intervals (based on the oil monitor or not) that is your perogitave, however remember who foots the bill when your engine fails.
- Chad
"Nay-sayers of 20 weight oil's ability to protect engines should note that typically, 30 weight oils shear down into the 20 weight range anyway. Most engine wear is during start-up and warm-up period, where the thinner 20 weight oil's flow is desirable. Overall, lab test results of the wear metals contained in used oil samples show low or lower wear with 20 weight than 30 in applications it is specified for."
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil#Multi-grade
If this is true (which I don't believe it is with full synthetic oils) then what makes you believe that 20 weight oil doesn't shear down into the 10 weight category? Would you rather have a little extra protection or not enough? I'm on the hook if the engine fails so I'll take my chances with the higher weight oil.
"Most engine wear is during start-up and warm-up period, where the thinner 20 weight oil's flow is desirable."
This statement shows that the author doesn't know what they are talking about. The first number in an oil weight signifies the viscosity at startup, while the second number signifies the viscosity when the oil is hot and under pressure. A 5W20 oil has exactly the same startup properties as a 5W30. Only once the engine is warmed up does the latter number come into play. A 5W30 oil has more "viscosity modifiers" than a 5W20 oil which provides a thicker film between moving parts when under pressure, which is exactly when you want it.
"Overall, lab test results of the wear metals contained in used oil samples show low or lower wear with 20 weight than 30 in applications it is specified for."
This statement is meaningless. Unless you test your exact vehicle, under your normal driving conditions, with both a 5W20 and a 5W30 oil there is no way to make an accurate statement. As one who has performed oil testing on my own vehicles I can state that I have always had excellent results from the full-synthetic 5W30 oils I use so I will continue to do so.
- Chad
If y'all want to get down to the molecular level, you may want to take this over to Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2.
http://www.ford-forums.com/ford-freestyle/3008-water-leak-issues-3.html
http://www.fordinstallersupport.com/vdirs/upload/whatsnew/WAN_04_2007.pdf
The referenced CVT article (to a similar ZF CVT on a Mini Cooper) is at Click Here for the PDF file...., page 21