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Comments
You ask 'how does an LS diff help you unless you get stuck'.
Because the LS is always 'active' it should help prevent you from getting stuck in the first place.
Instead of waiting to get stuck, then activating the locker..
As far as LSD's wearing out over time, this is preventable by changing the rear diff fluid and using the proper additives..
When have I "ripped" on the TRD? I am simply stating that most buyers buy the TRD package for the sticker. Statistics show that over 90 percent of 4x4 vehicles rarely even see a gravel road. The locker is not functional for the everyday user, it is of no benefit in towing, hauling or pulling. Also, go to Kelly Blue Book. Type in a like Toyota with and without the TRD package.. Surprise! No real big resale advantage either..
Really? So the highest payload comes standard on the Ranger? Or how about a clutch start cancel switch? What about standard skid plates on the ranger?
Toyota gives you standard features on a truck that you NEED in a truck.
I'm not 100%, but I believe in the past the TRD package didn't include the locker. It was beefier tires/wheels and shocks, the locker was additional. Plus the TRD was/is minimally more expensive than just the tire/wheel package so that's very likely the reason you see so many. Doesn't mean they all have the locker. I've also noticed that now you can get the locker without the TRD package. That's sweet, because you can get the locker and skip the extras that will get replaced with a lift anyway.
Toyota gives you standard features on a truck that you NEED in a truck."
-yeah, everyone needs a clutch start cancel switch.
-lockers generally don't need to be rebuilt.
"When have I "ripped" on the TRD?"
-you're kidding, right?
"I am simply stating that most buyers buy the TRD package for the sticker. Statistics show that over 90 percent of 4x4 vehicles rarely even see a gravel road."
-probably true, but who cares?
My point vince is that the TRD is marketed and sold as an off-road package. therefore, a locking diff makes sense. Most hardcore offroaders add an aftermarket locker to their rig anyway, so the TRD package is great for people who want those features added at the factory and also warrantied.
Does anybody know exactly when I would use my clutch start cancel switch? Why would I need to start the truck without pushing down on the clutch?
Yea, I might be a "City Trucker", but I know my Taco 4X4 V6 with 12" ground clearance will go just about anywhere! Unlike a lot of other more expensive SUVs.
Steve
I submit that the only reason the locking diff is offered on the TRD package is that it is cheaper to supply than a torsen diff.
To keep this on topic, I think the Ranger and Tacoma are both good trucks. I wish everyone that owns them would use them as trucks so Ford and Toyota will continue to build capable trucks instead of cars that look like trucks.
Ford doesn't build a capable 4x4. So indeed, they have fallen victim to the "looks like a truck but is a car" trend.
Basing their entire truck line on a higway only suspension is not a good thing.
Steve, where in the heck do you measure 12" of ground clearance on your Tacoma? Please, go try to find 12" of ground clearance under your Toyota right now. Do you know where Toyota measures its ground clearance. And you just hammered it home again, you don't know when you would even use a clutch start cancel switch!! LOL! Sorry, but I come accross so many Tacoma owners that just don't know how, or when to use what on their trucks... Enjoy those stickers!!
Eagle, most lockers are found on Jeeps and older 4x4 vehicles. Next your going to tell me you take your Tacoma rock climbing!! LOL>>.....
Cheers,
Steve
I can see how in a rare situation that can be useful, like in Vince's back yard!
Thanks again,
Steve
This is a nifty switch if you happen to be doing some steep climbing while seriously off-roading and happen to accidently kill the engine in the middle of a hill. Just push the switch, hit the key and let the starter pull you along until the engine catches. Obviously, you'll already be in low-range, 1st or 2nd gear. Pushing in the clutch can be possibly disastrous in the middle of a steep hill. This does NOT damage the starter. I'm surprised some of the hard-core Tacoma off-roaders haven't described the use of this switch for you.
Re: Ground clearances---
Toyota measures from the lowest SPRUNG portion of the vehicle, which does NOT include the lowest hanging components, which are the axles. Other manufacturers measure from the lowest UNSPRUNG portion of the vehicle, which ARE the axles. Obviously, this is just like comparing apples and oranges, but Toyota doesn't TELL you what they're doing, as their process makes them look better (greater ground clearances). Both types of measurements are allowed under the SAE J1100 Standard. Toyota has chosen to be "different" in order to look better to those who care about such things.
Take a tape measure and measure from the lowest point on your axles to the ground. The distance you measure won't match Toyota's numbers. To do that, you'll have to measure from the bottom of your transfer case, which isn't the lowest hanging part on your truck. Clever, those Japanese....
Ford, Chevy, Dodge, et al measure from the lowest portion of the axle.
http://home.earthlink.net/~azttora/main.html
I guess some people do use their $24,000 vehicles for wheelin. I'd like to see some stats on % of Rangers that are used for off-roading compared to % of Tacomas. I just know if I'm buying a truck that I intend to drive on-road and off-road the Tacoma wins. If I needed a 4X4 truck that would rarely leave roads I'd buy the Ranger. I like both trucks, I just think they are designed for different uses. The soft suspension and fancier interior of the Ranger make it a very nice vehicle for general driving. The Tacoma is stiffer, well composed off-road, and designed more for utility, IMHO. Most of the oil-well service companies around here drive Toyotas because they know this. Regardless, I see alot more dirty tacomas than rangers.
A friend bought a new Explorer in 1990. Explorers from that time frame have gigantic shock mounts than hang REAL low. He went 4-wheeling and got hung up on a rock on one of his shock mounts. Took him an hour or so to jack up the vehicle, and then remove the rock. Oh, what fun!
I also happen to notice stuff like this. Just this morning I noticed that S-10 shock mounts hang down pretty low. The S-10 I was following had bright yellow shocks, probably Bilsteins, which made the mounts easy to see.
Thanks again,
Steve
Thats the way Ford builds thier trucks. They do NOT have an offroad design philosophy.
Look under a Tacoma verse a ranger-
Everything in the Tacoma is tucked away nice and neat, standard fule tank plates, ect.
Rick5-
\\Ford, Chevy, Dodge, et al measure from the lowest portion of the axle. \\
And yet Toyota STILL has the highest ground clearance in EVERY single 4x4 class from SUV to pickup.
Yet Toyota STILL designs their trucks with serious abuse and offroading in mind. Highest standard payload, clutch start cancel switches, glad plated starters, highest ground clearance, best offroading suspension option.
To quote 4wheeler.com
" Toyota provides tough truck features in the Tacoma that other manufacturers simply don't. And they all work. That is why we choose the Tacoma pickup of the year over the Ford Ranger"
" The TRD Tacoma handled the rough stuff better than any vehicle we have driven"
-4wheeler.com
But I do agree that on paper and in looks, the Tacoma 4x4 is an aggressive looking mini-truck although a bit expensive..
There doesn't seem to be as much of a difference in the Ranger 4x4 vs 4x2..
The Ranger 4x2 looks bigger than the Tacoma 4x2 when you look at them side by side.. (not counting the pre-runner 4x2s), whereas the Tacoma 4x4 looks bigger than the Ranger 4x4..
I'm sure most of this is just an illusion, but its funny how rims/body lifts/tires make the sheet metal look bigger..
I think the 4X2 Taco sits extremely low to the ground which is the biggest reason it does bad in side-impact tests. All these tests are done to 4X2 model trucks (cost?) and the 4X2 tacoma sits so low the rammer intrudes above the door/safety beams. This would never happen on a 4X4, unless it's with a Semi and beams aren't gonna help much then. I've seen pics of several side impacts on Tacomas, and the driver/passenger seemed to fare well. The frame probably takes the brunt of the impact in the 4X4's if a car hits them.
1/4-1/2 inches.
My Ranger is about 9 1/4 at the bottom of the differential.
It is 10 1/2 at the front end. . .
BUT, given I have torsion bars, I can crank them up on the front and get about 1-2 inches more clearance, about 12 inches, taking the Ranger to a. . .
HIGHER front end clearance than a Tacoma.
For those that doubt my measurments, I will post a picture of a Stanley tape measure under the differential of a Tacoma TRD and my Ranger. I have been under my vehicle and a Tacoma Bess. . .
It is 9 1/2 inches vs about 9 1/4 inches.
As for the shocks... Here we go again... Anyone who offroads knows you don't use your ground clearnance to go OVER objects. You use your tires to crawl over the objects in question.. I have never had any shocks torn off my Ranger by the way...
I don't hate Tacoma's nor Toyota as many people like to think. I think people feel I feel this way because I know they aren't worth the extra 2-3K difference along with, I know mechanical things about them that I have been finding out many Toyota owners don't even know they existed. I wish I could tell you how many people I have run across not knowing where the Tacoma stands in crash tests, or where they measure ground clearance...
By the way, please do take a look under a Tacoma and then a Ranger... You will find things that may surprise you...
I am sorry I was mistaken. You can get 2-3 inches increase by cranking the torsion bars.
Notice the Ranger in the bottom of the site. He has 33 inch tires but is higher than any Tacoma could hope to be. . .
Given that the Tacoma has coil spring front end, the only way to lift it like a Ranger torsion bar system is to replace the front end with a lifted system for about $1,000+.
For a Ranger you need a can of WD40. . .
Vince, your 265RX16 inch tires are the same size as a 31X10.5X15 inch tire, about 30.7 inches.
I agree with you regarding using the tires, however, when you do a whoop de do it is nice to have a bit of extra clearance.
The shocks on the rear of a Ranger are right around 10 inches from the ground, given a 31 inch tire.
The Ranger rear differential is about 9 1/4 inches in the same configuration. You will hit the differential before you hit the shocks in most cases.
I have many scrape markes on my differential, none on my shocks.
-For the last time, I don't own a tacoma!!!!
-Speaking of highway suspension, the Tacoma has IFS right?
Indeed, here's at least one instance where Toyota made a major modification to improve the highway ride and manners of their trucks.
"All Tacomas have
front coil springs
instead of torsion bars, but 4x4s and PreRunners feature longer suspension travel to improve ride/handling qualities
SELECTED STANDARD EQUIPMENT
3.4L V6 DOHC 24-valve engine; part-time 4WD; 5-speed manual transmission;
front independent suspension with stabilizer bar, rear rigid suspension;. . .
Ranger:
SELECTED STANDARD EQUIPMENT
4L V6 OHC 12-valve engine; part-time 4WD; 5-speed automatic transmission;
front independent suspension with stabilizer bar, rear rigid suspension with stabilizer bar;
Hmmm, that same IFS on each vehicle. . .but torsion bars you can crank on the Ranger for a clearance greater than a Tacoma. . .
No rear stabilizer bar on the Tacoma? Why?
I do think the Tacoma holds its value a little better than the Ford does and so Vince, that is where one might find justification in spending the extra $$$ at inception. By the way, I have a 98 Tacoma 4x4 X-cab V6 5-speed and the clutch override was a standard option; part of the SR5 package. I take it off road maybe a dozen or so times each year, mostly on the beach on the Outer Banks. I don't do any "mudding" or any "serious" off-roading so it's likely I'll never even use it. Still though it's nice to know it's there.
I'll admit, when I shopped back in 1998 the Ranger made my short list and finished a close second. It had the better price and nearly all of the features that the Tacoma had. It did not come with 31" tires, though my Tacoma came with 31" Firestones (hey who knew back then). I still think they're both good trucks. Some people think Ford is better than Toyota and others think Toyota is better than Ford. Does it really make that much of a difference to the 99% of us who rarely take it off-road and when we do, we're not doing any "serious" off-roading?
I test drove the Ranger and it rode just as nice as the Tacoma, perhaps a little softer suspension. The thing was, I just didn't like the interior and I didn't much care for the salespeople at the Ford dealership. In terms of price, I got into my Tacoma for just under $21,000 and I had about four colors to choose from at one dealership. I could not find the Ford 4.0L V6 with a standard 5-speed, only the 3.0L version. The 4.0L had a sticker of $18,500 or in that ballpark. When I considered insurance and resale value, I opted for the Tacoma. AND, the Tacoma was the only 6-cyl 4x4 p/u I could get with a 5-speed in my immediate area. Plus the dealership is only 10 miles from where I work.
It was, and still is, my opinion that Ford vehicles just aren't as reliable as Toyota. Again though, that is just my opinion. There are people I know who swear by Ford and there are others I know who curse them all the live-long day. Perception of quality, when discussing automobiles in general, is usually based 99.99% on previous experience. I had a bad experience with a Nissan 200SX. So bad, in fact, that I'll never even consider buying another Nissan. My first car was a 1980 Celica and the car was by far and away the most reliable thing I've ever driven. It's all perception and so in the end I decided to spend my money on a Toyota. Some people think I wasted my money but most think I got a good deal.
My truck has 56K miles and with the exception of the tires, nothing has gone wrong. It rides every bit as smooth and quiet as the day I bought it. We've had a rough winter in NJ this year and the truck works great in the snow. I've already planned a vacay to the Outer Banks again this year and am looking forward to a third year of driving on the beach.
About resale. Better punch the numbers at Kelly Blue book and see the advantage isn't as great as you think it is. And, don't forget you paid more at sale.
I agree that they are both nice trucks and each as capable as the other. But now with the new SOHC 4.0 the Ranger now has the power advantage.
Steve
I've had several 5 speeds with manual trans/transfer cases. They tow fine. Am looking at a newish truck, but need to be able to tow it on occassion.
http://www.homestead.com/therangerstation/index.html
Click on the "Technical Question" link or go to the 4X4 board also:
http://www.fordranger.com/offroad.html
My best guess it that that tranny is too expensive to try to tow it without disengagment or the pump you refer to. But I have a 99 manual tranny 4X4.
BTW, Pushbutton 4X4? You mean the Pulse Vacuum hubs I assume. No push button system. . .
Both vehicles have shift on the fly 4X4 high which means the engagement is electrical.
Tacoma offers an open rear or a locker, Ranger an open rear or LS, however, Ranger differentials are an 8.8 inch ring gear vs an 8 inch for the Tacoma. Lockers are offered for Ranger for about 300-400 bucks installed.
I think I heard that Tacoma has a Dana front differntial, but have not confirmed that. Ranger front differential is a Dana 35, 7.5 inch ring gear. Not sure about the Tacoma front differential, can never find any data on that, other than to know it is an open differential.
Tacoma offers Billistine's a Ranger owner can upgrade to Rancho 5000 or 9000 shocks at 30/40K when shocks start to go.
Tacoma Transfer case low crawl ratio is 40:1, Ranger is 38:1. However this is only in first gear. In higher gears, like 2nd and 3rd, the crawl ratio in low favors the Ranger.
Approach and departure angles favor the Tacoma due to the way it was constructed and the wheel clearance being more.
2001 Ranger has 207hp on a single cam, Tacoma has 190hp on dual cams.
2001 Ranger has 240lb/ft torque, vs Tacoma's 220 lb/ft torque.
Clearance, with the same tires, is within a half an inch between the two vehicles.
The vehicles are rather close.
Allknowing, you act as if you have to traverse a class 3 trail in order to get to work! LOL! or you offroad everyday.. Come on your not fooling me. I live in one of the best placed in the country to offroad and I go out about maybe 3-4 times a month. Right now there is too much snow in the Cascade ranger to even reach or see trails. But, let me guess, your TRD can plow right through that 18foot snow drift right? You have one heck of a chip on your shoulder since I deflated that "Toyota is god" bubble huh?
CP- The vehicles aren't close though you keep trying to convince us that they are. The suspension on the TRD Toyota is better for control and comfort on rough terrain hands down. I drive both regularly and there's quite a difference. My wife feels the same. I'm afraid that it's a bit more than shocks too so your changing the shocks comment doesn't fly. If you really drove both regularly, as I do, you couldn't help but see the difference. The Ranger has advantages over the Tacoma in some areas but off road ability isn't one of them. You can't sway me because I have too much experience driving both to buy you arguments. Ford apparently wants to appeal to a different market and doesn't feel the need to offer a comparable package to the TRD Tacoma.
Is it true the Ford Ranger with the 4.0 207 hp only comes with an automatic? I can't beleive that Ford would do that to a 4X4? (I'm only asking the question, so don't get excited if they do offer a manual)
Cheers,
Steve
In addition, there are lots of new trucks sitting on the dealer's lots too, including huge numbers of Tacomas.
Perhaps Toyota is not a big seller in your area. Few trucks sold = few used trucks later.
I am sure that the big 3 sell more trucks than Toyota does on American soil. Why? I believe:
(A) There are more dealerships so there is more supply,
(B) There has been a longstanding attitude within the citizens of this country (USA) that we should buy American made products and this sort
I came very close to buying a Ford Ranger and admit, it's a very nice truck. Had I found a 5-speed with the 4.0L V6, I'd probably be driving one right now. I paid $21,000 for my Tacoma while the 4.0L Ranger went for I think $18,500 or so. Included in the price I paid was a Pursuit alarm (installed), a bedliner (was not offered on the Ford), 31" tires (again, not an option for the Ford), floor mats and a full tank of gas and a free oil change (big whoop, right?) Now the Automatic tranny probably will help the resale value of the Ford, but anyone who knows anything about owning a 4x4 knows that a standard tranny is the way to go as it provides more control. The question I'd really like to know is: Does Ford make the Ranger with a 4.0L V6 with a standard tranny?
allknowing, my whole point here is that the Tacoma TRD may have a SLIGHT advantage over the Ranger. But, is the advantge worth the extra 4K for as little offroading people do? Image, thats what people want, they want the sticker.. I may get bumped around a bit more than you, but I am going to get to the same place you are gauranteed.
Ranger and Tacoma dominate the Northwest area in small truck sales. There are plenty of Tacoma's to go around here. When I check the paper and compare like trucks for sale the prices are very close also. The Tacoma may have a 500-750 dollar advantge, but, remember who paid more at sale price...:-) The reliabiltiy/quality advantage that Toyota owners try to portray as being this huge gap is untrue. Thank-god for the Internet!
I just don't buy the anti-import stuff anymore. People are going to buy what suits them, fits the budget. In 1998 when I went truck shopping I drove them all. I just couldn't justify spending the extra 3K for a Tacoma just to have image.
For the record, I think rangers are nice looking trucks. I think the S10-ZR2 is nicer looking than both the Ranger and Tacoma; but all three are pretty nice looking trucks. I think the Dakotas are nice too. I think the Nissans look like crap.
Vince, I think the "Buy American" attitude persists more than you think. I'm a salesperson (not cars or trucks) and I see it all the time. It may not be as big now as it once was but it's still there. People will buy whatever suits there needs and/or desires; true, but many will look for American made products first before even considering an import.
I have not heard any REAL horror stories about the Ranger XLT 4x4's but I will say this: now that I've had my Toyota for a few years, I am so happy with it that I know I'll never own another truck unless it's the same thing (though I might consider the Tundra). Again, nothing against Ford, it's just that Toyota has endeared me with it's reliability; that is how pleased I am with this truck. Could I have saved a few bucks by buying Ford? Maybe. Was I looking for prestige in buying a Toyota (or some other higher priced truck)? Not at all. I received good service, and got a great truck that is every bit as reliable as they touted. Isn't that how a company truly builds customer loyalty? Perhaps Vince, you have had a similar experience with Ford, and if so that's great. I'm sure we're not alone. I'm sure there are people who have similar experiences with Nissan, Dodge, Chevy and just about any other automaker in the world.
The bottom line is that I am pleased with my purchase and think I got a good deal. I had the dealer throw in some extras and in my mind it was worth it. Perception, Vince, is the key word here; remember? My perception is that I got a good deal. Many of my friends agreed, but not all of them. If your's is different then so be it. I don't expect everyone to share my perception. Think how you'd feel if the shoe was on the other foot and it was you denfending Toyota and Allknowing defending Ford.
At 100,000 miles: Tacoma: $10410 Ranger: $9280
At 150,000 miles: Tacoma: $9935 Ranger: $8805
At 200,000 miles: Tacoma: $9935 Ranger: $8805
Ford Ranger had: XLT with 4 doors, auto, 4.0L V6, off road pkg, ac, power steering, pw, pl, am/fm/cass, dual airbags, rear slider, cruise, tilt, alloy wheels; condition: good.
Tacoma X-cab had: SR5 pkg, 5-spd, 3.4L V6, pw, pl, ac, cruise, tilt, power steering, am/fm/cass, dual airbags, rear slider, bedliner, alloy wheels, off road tires; condition: good.
In all of those instances I can guarantee you the Ranger cost at least that much less to purchase PLUS there's always some financing or rebate from Ford. Using your figures I think the Ranger actually came out on top on resale.
If you want to consider rebates, trade ins, extra options that the dealers throw in to "sweeten the deal," then just about anything goes. Ford may come out ahead in some instances and I even admitted that the difference in resale value was closer than I thought; albeit not much.
The point I'm trying to make is that anyone who buys a new car obviously gets the perception that they're getting a good deal. If they didn't then why would they buy?
Here's another thing, as I've said before, it's all about perception. Tacoma owners feel their trucks are slightly better than the Ranger. Ranger owners feel their trucks are just as good, if not better than Tacomas. Each have their reasons as to why their perception is the way it is. Furthermore, not every Ford Ranger is exactly the same and neither is the Tacoma for that matter. Some will break down sooner and others will last longer. Some will be sold to meticulous owners and others will not. People are different and as such they place value on different things.
If you bought a Ford (or Dodge or Chevy) and think you got a better deal I did, then kudos to you dude. I feel that way about my Tacoma and no matter how much anyone tries to convince me, I won't buy into it for the simple fact that they aren't driving the exact truck I own.
If the entire world changed their perception of Toyota for better or worse, I'd be indifferent as far as my truck is concerned because to me it's the only truck in this world that matters.