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Comments
It's like the HSD Camry is expected to sell maybe 70-90K units at full production as a complement to other Camry's.
OTOH I think they will try to keep the Prius as a stand-alone vehicle in the 100K+ range.
Both the Corolla and Camry versions would likely attract those interested in hybrids but turned off by the uniqueness of the Prius.
Then again, what do I care. I've been driving a Civic that for its first 5 years looked just like every other car on the road to me. Now it's looking older than most.
I think I would like that color also. I will watch for it.
Well, not completely....There are already too many of those Chrysler 300's around, particularly here in Orlando - rental fleet capital USA - but when a nice clean example pulls next to me with a subtle tint on the windows and a nice set of rims (no, not the rediculous 21" ones) I still have to look.
And that '06 Hyundai Sonata looks good - even though EVERYONE is buying one. I admire them when I see one on the Turnpike. And I thought h3ll would freeze over before I ever said that a Hyandai looked okay.
Sooooo.... a TCH with the 17" 6-spoke SE rims, a medium tint on the windows, and preferably silver or that dark magnetic grey...now that will hold me over until 2010 when a VW Passat Hybrid Turbodiesel is available!
Hybrid doesn't have
- multiadjustable power passenger seat
- retractable rear windshade
- digital quartz clock (presumably in multi-display instead)
Hybrid does have
- VDIM standard instead of VSC optional on XLE
- Smart Key/Push Button Start/Remote entry is standard instead of optional on the XLE
Hybrid also loses:
. Alarm
. Tachometer
. Illum. Visor Mirrors and rear reading lights (unless you order the special moonroof option)
. Wood Trim
. Foglights
The hybrid comes with these standard features not found on the XLE-4:
Smart Key ($450)
VSC ($650)
LED Tail lamps ($ ???)
Acoustic Insulated Windshield ($ ???)
The XLE-4 comes with these standard features not found on the Hybrid:
4-Way Power Passenger Seat ($ ???)
Reclining Rear Seats ($ ???)
Wood Trim ($ ???)
Moonroof ($940)
Heated Outside Mirrors ($ ???)
Fog Lamps ($ ???)
Rear Sunshade ($ ???)
So if you assume that the cost of features on the XLE such as fog lamps, sunshade, etc. offset the LED tail lamps, windshield, etc. features on the Hybrid you are left with the following...A Hybrid XLE-4 with Smart Key, VSC, but NOT a Sunroof.
So to figure price of a Hybrid you must take the MSRP of the XLE-4($24425) + Hybrid Synergy Drive($ ???) + Smart Key($450) + VSC($650) - Roof($940)
So estimating $2000 additional for HSD that puts the Hybrid at $26585. This is believable since I can't imagine they would price it more than an XLE-V6 ($27520). Remember the Camry Hybrid is not the fastest trim level, as in the Highlander/Lexus GS450h, so I don't believe it will be priced the highest. Just in terms of performance and efficiency comparing against an XLE-V6, most people that aren't already set on a Hybrid wont pay MORE for a Hybrid version the exact same car to get 21mpg more City & (only) 6mpg more Highway, when the V6 will SMOKE them in terms of acceleration.
Just my opinion, feel free to counter, but be nice...
That compares to a similar Prius at $29,195 (w/HID's) and a Honda Accord Hybrid at $33,540 MSRP.
Accessories - floor mats, trunk mat, first aid kit, bodyside molding, wheel locks, mudguards, toyoguard, remote start, satellite radio, etc. pile on more $$$$$$$$.
Just my thoughts. If it is $30,000 w/o the NAV, I will probably go with the XLE as I can get that with everything except NAV for less than $25,000 and the Hybrids will be tough to buy under MSRP.
At $5,000+ difference, the hybrid doesn't make economic sense for me.
IMO it will fall in the $26-27K range mainly due to supply reasons. There will be only 2-3 TCH's per store on average and why underprice them ( leave money on the table ) and have long waiting lists that antagonize buyers. Use the natural mechanism of pricing to filter out most buyers. I feel that they could sell this as low as $23K but they want it to appeal to a special segment of buyers as does the Prius.
I feel it will fall closer to $27K now in order to hold demand at bay. This would be for an LE trim. For an XLE trim hybrid w/ Navi it will likely fall close to $32500.
Not that it's worth anything but a couple dealers out here have told me they expect the hybrid to be $5000+ more than the XLE, or over $30,000. I think they're basing this on the premium that hybrid adds to the Highlander.
If you the 'premium over...' process then you have calculate it as the 'premium over the 4c LE' which lists for $21350.. which comes back to ~ $27000 for the standard version TCH.
Read the options list for the Hybrid!!!
Read the features of the Hybrid!!!
DrFill
Some posters think that is an unfair comparison. I think it is the obvious one. If the TCH wanders up into the $27k- $30k range is there any reason to buy one?
I can buy the XLE 4C with leather and moonroof for under $23k. What will the equally equipped TCH cost? And it is SULEV II with a 9.5 CA EPA rating. Same as the Prius.
1. What will the actual OTD price differential be? We won't know until the model goes on sale. So far, hybrids typically sell at full sticker and above; non-hybrids rarely do.
2. Will buyers be able to get the full tax credit? Early buyers might; later buyers likely won't.
3. What will the price of gas be over the period to be compared? Payback at $3+ will be much quicker then if gas settles around $2.
4. Just what do those replacement batteries cost? No one seems to know for sure. If it's $3,000 at 100k, that's 3 cents per mile, which alone eliminates the gas savings.
The general consensus is that one ought not by a hybrid expecting to recoup the costs. Other considerations need to matter more.
But I'd be interested in your specific view of where the prices will fall.
I have the options at hand and show them to customers frequently. I'm comfortable with these two price levels.
XLE 4c lists for ~$25060 ( No VSC/Trac ) or about $25700 with VSC/Trac.
IMO the base trim TCH will come in about $1000 higher or about $26700 with VDIM standard but also with SKS and 190 hp. So is 'payback' even a consideration. Buyers normally pay $2000 additional for V6 power over 4c power all the time and they lose fuel economy on every mile they drive in doing so.
I guess it was a misunderstanding..
According to the brochure, there is just one hybrid model and options to that one model.
$27K with no options, $30k with leather, heated seats and moonroof, and $31.2k adding NAV.
So we're close!!!!!!!!!
Model: XLE V6 Sedan (6 Speed Automatic)
Model Year: 2007
Transmission: 6 Speed Automatic
VIN: XXXXXXXXXXX13H470
Color: Magnetic Gray
Interior: Bisque Leather
Available: 04/05/06
Dealer Name: Phillips Toyota
Dealer Phone: 352-728-2030
Base:
$27,520
Options:
$2,530
Manuf. Delv, Proc & Hndlg:
$635
Total:
$30,685
Options broken down:
Fuel Surcharge:
$23
Navigation w/ JBL Premium Audio 4-Disc-NVAT:
$1,200
Smart Key System w/ Push Button Start-SKAT:
$450
Carpet Mats and Trunk Mats-PV50:
$199
Rear Lip Spoiler-CX10:
$399
Window Tint-TW50:
$259
So I can't think a loaded Hybrid could cost more than this! What do y'all think?
Why? Because they can!!!!
Compare Hybrid to Hybrid!!
A similar equipped Prius is $29,195 and an Accord Hybrid is $33,540.
Expect $31-32k with less than $1k max. off MSRP.
Supply and Demand Rule!!!!!
A hybrid Camry priced in the 30k range will share the same fate as a hybrid Accord: A low volume lacklustre seller. People will flock instead to the fuel efficeint low priced i4 Camry instead.
But check this out - my neighbor down the road just purchased a new Prius, but didn't go to the closest Toyota dealership (name not mentioned in this post) because the closest wanted to add an extra few $K on top of the MSRP.
After my neighbor did some research he found a different dealer a bit farther away who has a policy of NOT adding to the MSRP for hybrids. He told me the story so I'm avoiding my local dealer like the plague.
So my point is, I'll be paying MSRP (but not less) because of the particular dealer I'm working with. But just to be sure, I'm on a waiting list, and I put $1000 down. So I'm pretty certain that I'll be paying around what I posted previously for the V6XLE. If you can poke any holes in my logic then go for it.
Based on Toyota's experience with the hybrid highlander, I think Toyota is going to sacrifice some margins in order to make the hybrid Camry a sales success. Limited supply is a wonderful concept when you are located in Marenello Italy manufacturing Ferraris, but certainly not in Toyota City Japan.
I will guess that the cloth version outsells the leather version 3/1.
This is just a different trim level in the Camry line. It's not a stand alone vehicle like the Prius. initial production is about 4000 units a month ( from Japan ) then 4000 a month from KY. At full production it's 5 units per store on average. I can see 4 cloth versions and 1 leather version typically being sold.
Daniel Howes
Wake me up, please
Just spent a few days driving a prototype of the all-new Toyota Camry hybrid, a lime green one my 14-year-old couldn't stop dissing. Neither could I if the object of my derision was to tell anyone who cares just how positively dull the whole experience was. Oh, I get the potential importance of hybrids -- how they're becoming an important part of the fleet, how they're one response to the rising price of oil, how Toyota and Honda have won the early rounds of this bout, how Detroit is only now getting in the ring. But, Lord, the behind-the-wheel experience of these things (unlike a clean Euro-diesel) is downright sleepy. This is slow writ large; there's a top-heavy, even wobbly, feeling going around corners. My guess is the production models will feel tighter. Don't know there's much they can do about the sluggishness --
http://info.detnews.com/autosblog/index.cfm
I just drove a 4-cyl 2007 XLE and LOVED it. I am ready to order a hybrid now. I drove it right after driving an Accord Hybrid and it was hands down better in most respects, for my purposes. My husband, who also drove both, gave it 'clear winner' status, too.
FINALLY, the salesman seemed mostly knowledgeable. He said he could contract with me for the TCH now at about the price (MSRP) of a 6-cyl XLE and that they will definately have the first ones in mid-May. In this market, Priuses are selling over MSRP, I believe, so it sounded fair to me.
You experts- He thought the TCH would have the pass-through thing to the trunk. I thought it had the fold-down seats. Do you know?
Can't anybody read the specs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't know how useful it will be with the batteries taking up 1/3 of the front of the trunk.
Salesman don't know a thing.
It was also on the Hybrid Preliminary Standard Features Sheet that came out about a month ago.
:P
I read also at toyota.com that the seats are indeed fold-down. And despite people wailing about a reduction in the number of cubic feet of said trunk, many reviews indicate that there is still plenty of space in the trunk.
Oh and that review from DetroitNews? Hogwash. I believe sources like Motor Trend (April 06). Here's what they have to say about the Camry Hybrid: "What gives the Camry our nod is its consistend 30-MPG-plus mileage without the Accord's $30,000-plus asking price. Toyota's extraction of true V-6 performance from a pedestrian-size inline-four simply upstages Honda's [hybrid] transformation of a sweet 3.0-liter V-6 into an admittedly swaggering one." Oh, and MT did record a 0-60 time of 7.9 with the Camry....
He must not have driven the Accord Hybrid. Far better car to drive, around corners, than anything that Detroit has to offer. And it is likely lighter than many of its competitors. So much for assumptions.
BTW, Civic Hybrid isn't fast but it is no slower than Jetta TDI (using CR numbers that apparently reflects more typical driving). So much for slow and heavy things.
As for Camry Hybrid, expecting sport sedan performance from it is a bit too much. It is what it has been... a fine, refined family sedan, that gets the job done, and this time with 30 mpg or better.
Apparently this writer is afraid to show the specs. Why?
I think it will have to deliver high 30s combined mileage to be a hit. You can get 30 MPG combined with the 4C. I did not mind driving the rental 4C Camry. I liked it better than the Sebring & Stratus rentals.
Some peopel like dull cars. Those that have no sterring fell,are quiet , and completley isolated you from the road. Toyotas, Lexus, Rolls Royce, Bentley's, Buicks come to mind.
There is nothing wrong with the isolation if that is what you want.
Apparently the Detroit writer likes sport cars or at least those that require some driver input and and provide some dirver feedback like most European cars: examples BMW and Mercedes. Just because he likes or dislikes isolation doesn't mena the quiet, dull Camry will not sell; it will sell like hotcakes.
However, I would recommend that the Prius watch out, I think the Camry and otheru pcoming 'Yota hybrids will canibalize the Prius sales. It is great when there is internal competition, the consumer wins.
Cheers,
MidCow
It will be a lot easier to get 40 mpg in Camry hybrid, than it would be in a Camry I-4. Would you agree?
I would sure think so.
The Camry Hybrid I4 is less capable than the ICE Camry I4. If the Camry is driven really hard under the wrong circumstances (for example, short trips in the city, or driving the engine hard), it could well deliver mileage similar to the ICE only I4. In general, with conservative driving, I think it will have better city MPG but may have similar (or only slightly better) highway MPG to the ICE only. Time will tell.
However, larger and heavier vehicles are more subject to penalities of driving a hybrid the wrong way.
Yes, but you wont have 190+HP. If that's ok with you, get the XLE 4C.
Apparently you haven't actually driven a Bentley recently, such as the Bentley Continental GT. Anyone who has wouldn't describe it as boring.
Oh certainly, but with a car that heavy, it will take careful, hybrid-aware driving habits.