Toyota Highlander

wwest · November 2002

30mm is about 1.2 inches that's what I have on my 01 AWD RX300. Works fine.

wcp · November 2002

http://en.carpoint.msn.ca/Browse/win_4021580.asp?src=Home&pos=Edit3

tombuchta · November 2002

There are tire cable chains sold for the HL AWD, for example Shur Grip (website below) says that their chains can be used on the HL provided speed is kept below 30 mph. Does anyone have experience with these working or not working on the rear HL wheels?

http://www.scc-chain.com/NewFiles/Seasonal%20Pages/vehicle_limits.html

wwest · November 2002

Have a look at the clearance, extreme lack thereof, between the top of the tire tread of the rear wheel and the bottom of the coil spring support.

The front is tight enough so that most chains will not fit and the rear....

cmcardle · November 2002

I hope they were more diligent about testing their product than they were in posting the photo under the Highlander link. If they tested on a 4Runner...

carpeople1 · November 2002

i would like to know...
how much off road activity can the HL take?
how is it in less than perfect weather?
how much load can it carry?

these are important factors in buying a midsize SUV for our family, BTW it needs to be spacoius.

Is this the best SUV out there for us, or is their better SUVs from the competition? can you help our family choose the right one for us?

thanks in advance

landdriver · November 2002

The Highlander is a car-based SUV meaning that it isn't suited for serious off-roading, as opposed to a truck-based SUV like the 4Runner. However previous posts in this discussion indicate that, especially in the case of the AWD, it handles rain and snow admirably.

I believe the Highlander has the most cargo space of any SUV; its passenger and cargo capacity is 850 lbs; towing capacity is 3500 lbs (at least for some models). I haven't had much experience hauling lots of stuff with an entire family on board as I'm single and have a truck for the heavy stuff...

nippononly · November 2002

your requirements there are very broad. HL's payload is actually over 1000 pounds, and its cargo capacity behind the rear seats is 38.5 cu. ft., or 81+ if you put the seats down. This compares favorably with most midsize SUVs, except for the Chevy Trailblazer extended version, which has more a lot more room and much higher payload, but costs several thou $$ more.

Toyota makes excellent cars and trucks, and HL is no exception. But there are plenty of good SUVs out there.

wwest · November 2002

or 03 4runner would be my first two choices.

The HL and RX are nothing more than "Macho" minivans. They are both absolutely excellent and reliable at that level. With initial torque bias to the front of about 90/10 neither are truly AWD vehicles.

And forget about off-road, they're not even safe for wintertime on-conditions.

carpeople1 · November 2002

we dont need that much off road capability, just for the ocassional trips here and there that are not paved. After all, i we needed off road capability to an extent that it had to e truckissh, high and uncomfortable, get an xterra!
what we need is something that can handle the not to extreme dirt, but need it to be comfy, also. every family wants to be comfy, right? Also, how well is it on paved roads? is it real smooth with no noise, rough, or noisy, or in the middle? i've heard it rides smooth but makes noise, is tis true? what other competition oes it have that we should look at that can match the capabilities we need?

thanks again

carpeople1 · November 2002

we only have maybe 26k to spend, also, so that is another factor

wishnhigh1 · November 2002

wwest...do you own a highlander?

cmcardle · November 2002

the highlander is a very comfortable vehicle that can handle the occasional dirt/ gravel/ grass road with no problems. it is not noisy, unless you try to drive with only the rear windows down, then it makes a very loud sound as the air can't pass properly. it is almost like a station wagon, with bigger tires, more seating room and more cargo.

if you can handle the offroading or poor weather you have with a "normal" car, the highlander will also handle it, but in a better and more comfortable manner. larger tires and better suspension will help quite a bit, all wheel drive even more.

if you can't handle the conditions with a "normal" car, you may need to step up to a truck based suv, sacrificing comfort, silence and fuel economy.

toyotaken · November 2002

The highlander isn't designed to handle heavy off-road excurstions. For an occastional jaunt on a dirt path that is VERY lightly rutted, it's fine. However, as has been stated preveiously, it is a car-based SUV. The AWD will give you some added traction in situations where it may be helpful, but other than a bit more ground clearance (not alot), and bigger wheels and tires along with the AWD, you don't want to get into anything too hairy in terms of off-roading.

junglejim · November 2002

"HL's payload is actually over 1000 pounds, and its cargo capacity behind the rear seats is 38.5 cu. ft., or 81+ if you put the seats down. This compares favorably with most midsize SUVs, except for the Chevy Trailblazer extended version, which has more a lot more room and much higher payload, but costs several thou $$ more."

Actually, the Honda Pilot beats it also in cargo. 48 cu.ft., or 91+ if you put the seats down. Oh, it's also less $$$.

wwest · November 2002

I just took a Chrysler AWD minvan to the 7900 foot level on a mountain in the Lynx Lake area outside of Prescott AZ. DRY Dirt road, some minor inclines, a few wash-out gullies parallel to the roadbed, etc. If it had happened to rain, even lightly, while I was in there it would have taken a 4WD Jeep with 4 chains to haul me out.

No HL, an 00 AWD RX and now an 01 AWD RX, same engine, drivetrain, suspension, AWD system as the HL.

Lincoln Aviator next, probably.

wishnhigh1 · November 2002

Why did you buy it if the AWD system sucks so much?

nimrod99 · November 2002

Why whine about the HL AWD, saying its not safe on winter roads, and the continual 90/10 torque split argument. I drove through 6-8" deep new snow (in a CRV) and couldn't get the car stuck. The HL is much better than a CRV - as long as you don't get stuck - who cares?

carpeople1 · November 2002

we cannot get the pilot, sense we have only 26k to spend, and i bet the Pilot will be way over tha with its Honda rep. and popularity. So far, everything you guys have said, has made the HL fit more to me, but i still dont know if competition would be better, can you tell me something that is non- truckish, but can handle OK in dirt, like the HL. Thanks for your input, it has helped us alot. I think that any AWD system is better thn none, and thats what we will probably get, AWD base. Is ther competition better suited for us. HL seems perfect from what i have heard from you guys, but would like to know if there is something better out there for us.

thanks again

wishnhigh1 · November 2002

I would like to know what is so inherrently unsafe about the highlander and RX in wintertime conditions.

First of all, the driver has more to do with the driving than the car. If driving a highlander is "unsafe" in winter conditions, I have to worry about the driver.

Second of all, AWD is AWD. If all wheels are being driven, at all times, then it is AWD.

The fact that it is 90/10 has nothing to do with it.

wwest, you have constantly lambasted the HL and RX system, and I see absolutely no reason for it whatsoever. I have read your posts, and your technical(ly-confused) jargon doesnt make much sense at all.

Sure, it isnt Audi Quattro, and it isnt close. But it isnt bad by any means either.

Everybody else seems to be doing okay with it, why is it that you keep having trouble.

brad_22 · November 2002

I've taken my HL through all kinds of muck...heavily rutted roads, mud, snow, 7in of water. It should be able to handle most drivers' offroading needs, provided you're careful and sensible.

But if you're looking for more capability, I've heard the Nissan Pathfinder is pretty good. I dunno if you can get the price you want, though.

gwkiser · November 2002

Obviously, you haven't been in this thread for very long. Wwest makes the visits here somewhat intolerable most days. We just haven't been so direct in pointing that fact out to him. On behalf of those who tire of his neverending criticism of a product which most true automotive authorities respect, we thank you.

toyotaken · November 2002

There are a few good alternatives available to the Highlander. Unfortunately some are pretty expensive, while others are a bit less expensive, but all of them you'll have to look at and drive to decide if they work for you. Some that I would recommend you look at are:'

Subaru Legacy Outback wagon (lower overall, more length)

Subaru Forester (slightly smaller)

Volkswagen Passat wagon w/AWD

Honda Pilot (larger but more trucklike. Not alot, but a bit)

These, in my opinion, are the best alternatives in the market for car-like handling wagons/SUV's. Other than the Honda, I can't say that Subaru or Volkswagen have quite the same reputation for reliability, but neither are bad either. Hope this helps.

phrosut · November 2002

Any and all of the vehicles mentioned are safer and perform exceedingly well compared to cars of just 5 years ago.

I recommend that you should test drive all of them at least once. That is also what I asked my wife to do, and when done we bought a HL (even though we'd never heard of it before stopping by to test drive a 4Runner and a Dakota at that dealership). We continued on to other dealers after driving the HL, but from there on nothing compared on handling and ride (we didn't test drive the RX300 as we aren't equipped with a Lexus budget). Our choices were only limited by the cargo room (for which we carried a tape measure) due to the carrying requirements needed for her hobby.

toyotaken · November 2002

the other issue about cargo room is that numbers don't necessarily tell you everything about space. Some people need lots of floor room. And of those, some need more length vs. width or vice/versa. Some need more height vs. depth. And some need the versatility of removing seats vs. fold-down. All of these need to be taken into account. So looking and driving is the best idea that you can do.

One other vehicle you may want to look at that I forgot about is the Mazda MPV. It is a minivan, but of the minivans out there with AWD, it's about the most reliable.

wwest · November 2002

99%, maybe even 99.99%, of the folks buying the HL or RX will perfectly perfectly pleased with their purchase for the full period of its useage.

But when someone pops up asking purchase related questions about the HL AND RX's AWD capability then I feel an obligation to speak up.

Again, as long as all four tires have roughly equal traction, low or high, the torque distribution will also be be roughly equal, 25% all around.

But the instant there is a disparate loss of traction then it's the VC that must come into play. My testing indicates that the viscous fluid in the HL/RX AWD system may very well be simple motor oil, or maybe only an "equal" fluid formulation.

So, no one should expect any real help from the rear drive ability of these vehicles in low traction circumstances.

And THEN.

Snowchains can only be used on the front of these vehicles. Does anyone out there doubt the potential hazards of using snowchains only on the front of ANY roadway vehicle?

In low traction conditions I will always trust my AWD Chrysler T&C or AWD Aerostar FIRST.

stever · November 2002

Mazda MPVs have only been FWD since ~2000 when they did their big model change. There's talk of making a AWD flavor but I think it's just talk at this point. The older MPVs were more like SUVs - 4 doors instead of sliders, etc.

Steve, Host

toyotaken · November 2002

thanks for the update. With mazda being such a small "player" in the industry, I don't keep very up to date on their products. I do have to say that I think they are underappreciated though.

nippononly · November 2002

"Subaru and Volkswagen don't have quite the same reputation for reliability" Darn right!

Subaru has a better reputation. Mechanically, Subarus are some of the very best out there, and certainly at least the equal of Toyotas.

And to compare them to Volkswagens, which need new transmissions and a complete electrical rebuild after three or four years, well that is just blasphemy!! ;-)

Don't believe ALL the hype...

toyotaken · November 2002

You noticed that I stated that they don't have quite the reputation for quality. I am not going to get into a flame battle here about which manufacturer is the most reliable. I am obviously a bit biased, but each person has their own experience with their car. I do not hear very many complaints about Toyotas or Hondas, but at the same time there have been a couple of "lemons" out there that I know about, so I can't say that they are all bulletproof. These cars are all built by humans and until we get to the point that humans are infallable, there are going to be the occasional mistake made. There are ways of minimizing those mistakes and catching most before they get to a customer, but nothing is perfect.

carpeople1 · November 2002

thank youfor the help, i think we will also test the subarus with the HL, most lkley. i will still be leaning to the HL of it being an SUV, taller, and to me, smarter looking than suburus. Subarus, i think have quality, though.

thanks for all the help and i will stop bugging you know, ad if we do get a HL, i will inform you on how it is going.
thanks again

candyman85233 · November 2002

Now the question is what to get on the HL when you get it.

We got the Indigo Ink (Dark Blue) Limited with the Gold Package, Tow Package and 6 disc jbl stereo. We did not get the leather, but I think if I bought it again, I would get the leather! The seats are probly more comfortable with the leather. I am 6'2" and on long trips, don't like the seats, they are pretty stiff.

Good luck! Don't forget to test drive the Saturn Vue.

biffy2 · November 2002

I was driving my awd HL out of a gully. The front left wheel crested the road edge first and was unweighted. According to wwest I am now stuck as the unweighted wheel had little grip and the Highlander cannot transfer torque. Well, I was not stuck and the front left barely spun. Just drove out. Real world and it works. 'Nuff said.

dougweaver · November 2002

We did a special order on our HL. We are going with a Vintage Gold 2WD 4CYL. (I took the 4CYL for a test drive and it did great) We loaded it up with these options: Quick Order Package, Towing Prep, Power Drivers seat, Luggage rack, Side Airbags, Vehicle Skid Control, Alum. Wheels, Gold package, Molded dash, Rear Spoiler, Carpet/cargo mat set, and Leather Seats. Hopefully it will be here in Feb or Mar. Looking forward to getting it. dpw

wwest · November 2002

Momentum or TRACTION.

Which?

Do you have VSC/Trac?

If so I am really interested to know if Trac kicked in and moderately braked the front wheel with no traction.

sportsterer · November 2002

i wasn't sure, so i held my head up a little higher, took a sniff, and sure enough, the savory, succulent scent of mule fritters is still siftin' through the air...

nimrod99 · November 2002

I finally test drove an '03 HL today.
Everything felt great - except for the brake pedal. How much should the pedal move when braking? - it just felt a little spongy to me.
I would guess that it moved about 1.5" - 2" to stop fairly quickly. I am just used to a harder pedal feel.
Anybody else have the same experience?

cfu000 · November 2002

>> would guess that it moved about 1.5" - 2" to stop fairly quickly.

I felt the same way when I test drove one about two weeks ago.

One of the sales persons said it is because the break is new,
and it should improve over time.

I do not think it is correct, and I believe someone mentioned before
that the break need to be bled a little bit (?) to correct the problem.

biffy2 · November 2002

No vsc, no traction control, and from a dead stop, as I wanted to see what would happen after all your posts. I agree the system is far from perfect but it is also far from useless. Another example: When I leave work I have to make a left turn onto a four laner, with heavy traffic. If it is wet, it can be dangerous. My previous Accord would spin the inside tire every time. My HL just hooks up and goes.

wwest · November 2002

Contact patch, weight, torque.

scanner · November 2002

getting 18 city and 24 highway with a FWD V6.

Bet Steve can't beat that with his minivan. :-)

stever · November 2002

Wanna bet?

MPG last 5 tanks (since 10/6):

21.73
24.39
24.98
22.09
21.87

Lifetime mpg @75,000 miles = 21.28. (3.3L V6)

So I gotcha. Barely! :-)

But 18/24 is pretty dang good for a SUV.

Steve, Host

scanner · November 2002

Had just finished reading the following article and felt compelled to note HL gas mileage.

http://www.edmunds.com/news/column/carmudgeon/77149/article.html

stever · November 2002

Heh, we've been having fun with Karl's article over in "I don't like SUVs, why do you?"

Don't forget the "SUV fuel mileage - Feel free to participate" discussion for more real world mpg stats. There's a Highlander owner over there beating both of us!

Steve, Host

toyotaken · November 2002

I don't understand why you're so adamantly against the HL and RX if you've owned two of them. I have been in similar situations driving highlanders here. And since we have started this discussion, I have deliberately tried to get into situations like what you're talking about. I drove to a point where one front wheel and then reversed it where one rear wheel were hanging in the air and the vehicle was at a dead stop. Then I stepped on the gas slowly... so that if the diff wanted to, it could send power the the one free wheel. I got up and moving with no problem in both situations. This was on a vehicle that was V6 AWD, SR-5 without VSC or LSD. I understand that you're explaining based upon your experience, but as I think most who have posted here have said, there isn't any vehicle that CAN NOT get stuck, just some that are better handling and less likely to get stuck. The Highlander is one of those vehicles. Is it perfect, no. Neither is anything else, but it is better in situations with poor traction than a 2wd vehicle.

wwest · November 2002

I can't go there. I have recently educated myself on the 03 4runner AWD/4WD system, but I know next to nothing about previosu years.

But. On the HL and RX the front diff'l is of the open type, meaning that in your case, absent Trac intervention, it would route ALL engine torque to the front wheel with the LEAST traction. About a few hundred millseconds later, IN THEORY, the VC would stiffen up and increase the front to rear coupling coefficient forcing some of the engine torque to the rear driveline.

"IF" the coupling coefficient is tight enough, and "IF" BOTH rear wheels have good traction, then forward you will go.

The rear diff'l is also of the open type and so if only one rear wheel has traction, and you don't have an LSD, you're STUCK!

And if the VC's fluid doesn't have the "correct" formulation then it might take many seconds for the VC to stiffen up enough to get you moving, or it may not EVER provide enough coupling coefficient to overcome the weight of the vehicle in this circumstance to get you moving.

The addition of VSC/Trac on the 01 AWD RX was supposed to overcome some of these shortcomings. There is no LSD option on vehicles with Trac for instance, just as one should expect.

Now I can fully understand and appreciate why Trac doesn't noticeably come into play in the front. To do so with the kind of SUV inexperienced drivers they would expect to encounter in these vehicles would very likely result in hundreds of complaints of broken hands and fingers.

But just why it will never come into play in the rear of my 01 AWD RX I don't understand. Perhaps they realized late in design that the front Trac action needed to be eliminated or moderated and the firmware "patch" resulted in both being non-operational.

greggsa4 · November 2002

I got rid of my Audi A4 (the WORST car I've ever owned) and bought a Highlander in July. I love it! I also own a 4Runner and love it as well. I don't think I will stay from Toyota for quite some time.

greggsa4 · November 2002

I don't think I will stRay from Toyota again

stever · November 2002

You have 30 minutes to make any changes or fixes after you post a message. Just click on the Edit button that follows your message after you post it.

Steve, Host

nimrod99 · November 2002

The owners manual states that it one needs to replace a wireless remote (for the AWD Ltd) one must ask the dealer to do the programming.

Does anyone have the procedure or steps required?

My Honda CRV - they gave instructions on how to re program a wireless remote. It usually involves the key in the ignition, position I, then pressing buttons on the remote in a particular order etc etc.

Thanks

Toyota Highlander

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