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When it warms up, too, to let air out, else you may up with 40psi in summer!
I actually owned 3 sets of them - on an 03 Miata, 98 Forester, and 02 Legacy. Not a great winter tire, but good grip even in the wet otherwise.
Again, my only complaint is short tread life.
They will last you about three years with your driving habits and they'll give you very decent traction on snow and ice.
Thanks....
I agree that your tires, the Yokohama Geolandar, are horrendous (for winter conditions).
Are you wanting to purchase an all-season tire that performs decently during winter, or have you considered running two sets - one for winter and one for summer? If you go with the two-set approach, you can probably run your Geolandars for another summer to help spread out the extra initial tire investment.
The best all-season tire I have used is the Goodyear Assurance TripleTred. It has an excellent treadwear life as well. Tirerack.com is a good place to go to get an idea of how you can expect a tire to perform. They have a (subjective) rating system based on user feedback, so you can compare tires within a given class and read reviews.
And the cause of the eneven wear is alignment. Get that fixed, too!
I agree that in theory at least all 4 tires should be changed at the same time. The manual says: "For safe vehicle operation SUBARU recommends replacing all four tires at the same time". There is a warning after that that mixing tires can produce damage to the drivetrain.
However, even the flat tire change procedure described does not specify that the spare (I have full size spare on my 2002) needs to go to he back, nor are there any mileage or speed limitations stated in the manual. There is no requirement (as i have seen in many posts) to put the vehicle in FWD mode. Basically the manual describes the flat tire replacement as it would be for a FWD or RWD car. If a different spare tire circumference could cause problems, why isn't it stated in the manual?
I am wondering if the manual transmission Subarus (50-50 traction F/R) have the more stringent requirements, while the autos do not.
Daniel
I can't imagine anyone driving on a donut for an extended period of time, but were that to happen, it could damage the differential because of the added stress, especially if the vehicle is driven on paved roads. On snow, ice, and gravel, the stress is more often relieved through tire slippage.
I agree with everything you say, theoretically. All I am saying is that the manual does not seem to put any serious restrictions on the tire circumference. If so, it would require installing the spare in the back, putting the car in FWD mode etc. as described in other posts. The only cautionary words about tire replacement are: "Have the wheel nut torque checked at the nearest automotive sevice facility. Store the flat tire in the spare tire compartment". If circumference was such a big concern, they would have said something like "repair your flat tire at the closest facility if possible, and install it back". No such words, they allow you to use the spare permanently.
CAUTION: Never use any temporary spare tire other than the original. Using other sizes may result in severe mechanical damage to the drive train of your vehicle.
The temporary spare tire is smaller and lighter than a conventional tire and is designed for emergency use only. Remove the temporary spare tire and reinstall the conventional tire as soon as possible because the spare tire is designed only for temporary use. Check the inflation pressure of the temporary spare tire periodically to keep the tire ready for use. The correct pressure is 60 psi (420 kPa, 4.2 kg/cm2).
When using the temporary spare tire, note the following.
. Do not exceed 50 mph (80 km/h).
. Do not put a tire chain on the temporary spare tire. Because of the smaller tire size, a tire chain will not fit properly.
. Do not use two or more temporary spare tires at the same time.
. Do not drive over obstacles. This tire has a smaller diameter, so road clearance is reduced.
. When the wear indicator appears on the tread, replace the tire.
. The temporary spare tire must be used only on a rear wheel. If a front wheel tire gets punctured, replace the wheel with a rear wheel and install the temporary spare tire in place of the removed rear wheel.
Precautions for AWD models with automatic transmission:
Your vehicle is equipped with the AWD (All-Wheel Drive) system. In addition, if your vehicle is an AT model, before driving your vehicle with the temporary spare tire, deactivate the AWD capability of the vehicle as follows.
1. Turn the ignition switch to the “LOCK” position.
2. Pull any one spare fuse out of the spare fuse holder in the engine compartment. Spare fuses are attached on the back side of the fuse holder cover. You may pick up any one fuse in the spare fuse holder.
3. Put a spare fuse inside the FWD connector located in the cabin and confirm that the All-Wheel Drive warning light “ ” illuminates. The All-Wheel-Drive capability of the vehicle has now been deactivated.
NOTE: After reinstalling the conventional tire, remove the spare fuse from the FWD connector in order to reactivate All-Wheel Drive. Make sure to restore the removed spare fuse in the spare fuse holder located in the engine compartment.
It seems that most if not all of those additional precautions are caused by the doughnut spare tire being vastly different from the remaining 3 tires. My car came with the full size spare from the factory, and again, I see none of these additional steps in the manual. Based on that, it seems that the AWD can accomodate fairly different circumferences. Another pointer in that direction - the "light load" tire pressure recommended in the back is 28 psi, "heavy load" is 36 psi, and always 29 psi in the front (numbers from memory, but I believe I am right - wife has the car now). Big difference between 29 psi and 36 psi. Bottom line, acording to my 2002 manual at least, restrictions when replacing with same size tire as my spare is seem to be rather related to driving dynamics and traction characteristics than circumference.
Based on all of this, IMO it does not seem completely unreasonable that replacing just 2 tires as opposed to all 4 is possible.
Daniel
If you have a full-size spare, there is much less of a difference in circumference and therefore much less stress on the system. If you keep the spare rotated in with the other tires, you could even drive on it regularly with no problems. But, if you only use it as the spare, you should swap it back off the car as soon as is reasonable.
You're right - most of the precautions in the 2010 manual are specific to the donut spare. There would be no location or speed restrictions on a full-size. I did not realize that the 2002 model included a full-size from the factory. The 2009+ models can accommodate a full-size in the well, but come with a donut.
Here is a very relevant article I found. It's not about Subaru or AWD, but shows real, measured impact of tire pressure. The author found that while the impact of tire pressure on circumference is very small, "The “roll-out” of the rear tires was reduced by 1” by simply reducing the tire pressures from 25 psi to 14 psi." Basically the same tire with 25 psi covered an extra inch on the ground with each rotation, compared to when inflated to 14 psi. One inch per rotation is huge, and that's just the impact of tire pressure. Below is the link. The guy even shows pictures of his measurements.
http://www.onedirt.com/tech-stories/tire-pressure-101-the-cushion-of-air/
Again, the range for the rear tire pressure recommended by Subaru is 28 psi to 36 psi based on load, quite big itself. Based on all of this, I will have no problem replacing just one tire (and perhaps fine tune the roll-out using the tire pressure) if needed.
First, yes, you could put a new tire on each axle and take pressure off the center differential and transfer it to the other two differentials. I did replace a single tire as I didn't realize it would cause a problem; that was about 20,000 miles into a set of tires that were on the car for 75,000 miles. When on dry roads, I didn't even notice the difference. On slick roads, the axle with that tire would slip every 3-4 seconds and create a noticeable "wobble" in the movement of the car. At about 185,000 miles (on the odometer - I put a new set of tires on at around 196,000), I started to get some differential noise from the rear diffy that became more consistent over time, but it still operated fine on my open-differential '96 Outback through 220,000 miles when I ceased to own it.
Second, you are making the assumption with tire pressure that the contact patch and sidewall height change in a linear fashion with tire pressure, which is not the case. The difference between 14 and 25 psi is worlds different from 28 to 36 psi. If you operated the car at the former difference for any length of time, it would create problems. At the latter, it would not. However, were one to drive the car at, say, an even 28 psi all around but carry a heavy load in the back at all times, it may cause additional stress on the drive line.
In the end, it really all depends on your priorities. If you want a well-functioning and maintained car, it doesn't pay to scrimp or neglect. If you don't care and can pass it on to some unsuspecting victim before any problems become easily apparent, scrimp away.
What bugged and still bugs me is that there is little information available about this issue. My suspicion is that the Subaru AWD can deal with more than the 1/4" circumference difference required, easily. Your own story proves that the Subaru AWD system can take a lot. I can only dream to reach that kind of mileage with my car (too many problems, in spite of being extremely well maintained). And simply we don't drive enough (reaching 90k miles in 9.5 years of ownership).
I suspect a lot of requirements in the manual are due to the litigious world we live in. For example, the manual specifies front to back rotation on each side. I got non-directional tires from Sears, with lifetime rotation and balance, but they refuse to do a FWD-pattern or X-rotation, because of the specs in the manual. So I go to Sears, have my tires balanced, then go home and do a proper FWD rotation. That doesn't make sense. I assume the only reason that is in the manual is because some OEM tires they use are directional. Just for the record, I am doing the FWD rotation pattern rather than X (cross) rotation because my auto Forester has 90% forward bias. So far that has worked very well.
-mike
Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
I completely agree with you. For short periods of time, such as under the heavy load scenario you presented in that same post, it will not cause any significant (lasting) stress. My goal here was simply to provide fair warning that stress will be introduced and it can lead to failure of very expensive systems.
This effect is similar to using the wrong offset of wheel, while using the wrong offset won't destroy your wheel bearings instantly, PROLONGED use will lead to premature failure.
-mike
Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
I just want anyone who is interested to know that I got new tires for my Forester, after being told be the dealer just to put on two new Yokahamas. I went and spent the money on Michelin Primacy tires the day before the two and a half feet of snow hit Chicago. I put on four tires, not two, which was pricey, but well worth it. I am getting great traction and these tires handled the snow and ice pretty well after our monster storm. Good choice! Thanks for all your advice-I appreciate it.
Chitown21
I had my '09 Forester XT Limited at the dealership for some routine maintenance yesterday. They found a roofing nail in the interior sidewall of one of the tires. The dealer quoted me a price for 4 tires including alignment, and I opted to go home, research on tirerack instead. I ended up buying the Kumho Ecsta LX Platinum tires, which should be delivered Mon or Tues next week.
Dumb girl question 1: why would I need wheel alignment after replacing the tires if I don't need wheel alignment before replacing the tires? The service guy at the dealer was insistent that I compare prices including wheel alignment. I don't get it. Are they going to knock my alignment out while installing the tires?
Dumb girl question 2: my tire sensor light came on 2-3 weeks ago. I added air to all four tires (can't remember if one was significantly lower than the others, but I think so), so I assume that's when I picked up the nail. However, the light had not been on since. I drove home from the dealer, and then an hour later went back out to run a short distance errand. The tire light came on almost immediately. I stopped for air and the bad tire was at 10 psi. Sorry, but WTF? So now what do I do? Not drive at all for three days? Carry a portable air pump with me and only drive short distances if necessary? Can I put a can of fix a flat in there for the interim (I read that can damage the TPMS).
BTW, I hate hate hate the Geolanders, so although I am pissed about having to replace 4 tires at 21K miles, I'm not sad to see them go. That 's why I didn't even consider the option of shaving a tire down to match.
aj
Did the old tires wear evenly? If so I'd be tempted to pass.
As far as your questions go, you wouldn't "need" an alignment when replacing the tires. The benefit, if you did opt to have one, could be two fold: 1. you would ensure (presumably) the new tires would wear evenly, and 2. you would put some extra profit in the shop's pocket. As AJ suggested, unless you see uneven wear on the current tires or the car is not tracking true, I wouldn't bother with it.
The shop may (probably?) fiddled with the nail when they were inspecting, which may have caused the leak to worsen. Since you don't plan to keep the tires, I would just opt for the refill often option. Or, you could get a tire repair kit (pretty cheap, $5-10), pull the tire off and put a plug in it (absolutely an extremely short-term fix) and hope it holds for the day or two you need. if nothing else, you do have your spare on-hand should you need it. I'd recommend making sure it is at full pressure (60 psi) now, just in case.
I've been using the Kumho KR21 Solus for several years, they are great tires (quiet, good riding, long lasting) at about $60-$80 (price has really been going up on these).
John
I recently bought a 2013 Forester Limited with the 17" wheels. I have an extra set of OEM 16" tires and wheels from my 2002 Forester S with all season tires. Bolt pattern and offset match. So today I installed the old wheels + tires 215/60-16 instead of the 225/55-17 the 2013 came with (as those old tires still have a lot of life in them). I realize my odometer is about 2% off, and the TPMS light came on as the old tires had no TPMS in them. My question however is about the front brakes - they only have 3/8" or so clearance with the 16" wheels. Wheels rotate freely, and a test drive including highway showed no problem. Is there any scenario in which this tight clearance could be a problem?
--Daniel
You lose a tiny bit of ground clearance, right? I would just get taller tires when (if) you replace them.
Yes, I am losing 0.5" of ground clearance. The plan is once I use these old tires to put snows on in the OEM size (for lower trims) 215/65-16.
Daniel
--Daniel
I have a set of 16" steel rims off a 2007 Forester that I use on my 2010. I use those with my winter tires (same size as you noted - 215/65R16) and then use the 17" alloy wheels for the summer tires. No TPMS in the winter wheels, which is fine by me.
Between 2002 and 2013, the Forester put on weight. So Subaru put on tires with larger load carrying capacity.
I STRONGLY recommend you do something other than put those 16" tires on your new Forester. Overloaded tires can fail - sometimes catastrophically and with little warning. You do not want to be part of that statistic.
Capriracer, I am fully aware of that. Weight went up by about 200 lbs., and tires went from 215/60-16 to 215/65-16 on base models and 225/55-17 on my limited. Load rating is 95 on my 225/55-17 vs. 94 on the old ones, very minor change. However for this very reason I am keeping my old tires 215/60-16 inflated by an additional 2-3 psi. I have them at 33 psi in the front, 32 in the back, so that should cover it. We also never get close to the load rating of the car of 900 lbs...
-Daniel
I accidentally saw some of your posts in an engineering forum (you are/were an engineer for a "major tire manufacturer").
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=159900
Very good stuff there, I agree with you 100%. If I have a choice, I try to buy tires rated H and above for the reasons you mention.
Daniel
96 X 4 = 384
MFG rebate = 50
DTD rebate = 75
Free shipping
= 259
Other tires available, I ordered Conti PureContact, $376 shipped.
Sale ends Mon...