A 2008 Sienna V6 minivan, btw, gets 17/23. Almost 100HP less than the DTS. A 2008 4Runner V6 gets 16/20 mpg. Same story. Too small of an engine for the weight, so it actually works too hard and MPG suffers.
So buy the V8 version. Oh yeah I have one (GX470). It gets worse mpg than the V6 by a mile. It's called 4x4 drivetrain and the aerodynamics of a brick. Nothing to do with engine power and if you looked at any specs you'd know the 4runner has plenty of power with the V6. Actually, almost identical performance to the V8.
According to Car & Driver the DTS runs to 60 in 7 seconds. Sienna in 7.4. Sienna is 200# heavier. Makes me go Hmmmm. Oh I see....your math is bogus. DTS has 275HP to Sienna 266hp. That's not quite a 100hp gap according to my math. Yes DTS will do better on highway with tall gears and MUCH better aerodynamics. I can get 30mpg in a Corvette but it doesn't have three rows and cargo space like the poster narrowed down on her needs list.
If you're not going to read the posters requirements you might as well just blurt out car ideas like a drunk.
Funny, I was reading on another Forum recently about a family taking a trip in a Flex and looking for cargo space. They mentioned the Flex doesn't have racks for a roof-top carrier. They were trying to find a hitch to put on for a cargo box.
If you don't travel often, that would be an ok option. I've done this in the past and IMHO they both are a bit of a PITA but workable. If you travel ALOT as the original poster mentioned, it might be nice to not have to deal with that. My problem was we do a lot of airport runs and the cargo boxes aren't real fun for that.
Yeah they are a PITA, never liked having to use that. I think driving a vehicle the size of a Suburban all the time would also be a PITA, though.
The one we had did not require a roof rack and we did not have a roof rack on our first minivan.
Our second (and bigger) minivan did have a roof rack. But I don't think we ever used the car top carrier once we had that. In fact, I don't think we used the roof rack for anything except bringing the Christmas tree home.
My friend - I appreciate your help, but the TSX and IS25x are just -bigger- cars. Bigger wheel base, heavier, wider, etc
My corolla has a 97" wheelbase, 1.8L engine, weighs 2300 lbs, and gets 28/34 MPG
the tsx has a 107" wheelbase, 2.4L engine, weighs 3500 lbs, and gets 21/30 the is250's numbers are 107.5, 2.5, 3650, 23/30
the new corolla is 102, 1.8, 2800, 26/34
the honda fit is 98, 1.5, 2600, 27/33
(oh, and the mazda 3 is 104, 2.3, 3221, 18/25).
The tsx, mazda3 and is250 are, I suppose "muscle cars", and I'll get to driving one sometime, but it just seems like these are such boats compared to my little, very agile corolla 8-}
Humm. I guess it's on another platform, because the old TSX in 2008 was without a doubt a luxury Civic. I assumed that they just did a refresh on the same platform. There are small wheelbase differences between makes, of course, but the options, engines, handling numbers, and so on are almost all interchangeable. Shop all four and decide which one you like.
That said, IMO, the Corolla is the worst for the money. It just feels cheap and plasticy inside. The Civic is probably next best, then the Mazda. The Sentra SE-R comes in first place, IMO. The Civic doesn't win because the hood and rear are absolutely invisible to the driver, so parking almost needs a camera unless you love parking by touch.
*The last generation Civic Si with manual, is far better - a real shame, actually, that they dropped it. We we were talking manual as an option, the Civic Si would be the best choice, hands down.
And about the minivan, I'm amazed that that one has ~260HP. It certainly still drives like a toad. Just a vague lurching and uninspired mess. As are minivans and most SUVs these days. The same engine in an Avalon(or nearly identical) gets nearly 30mpg highway. I just don't understand why people are so set on thinking that they MUST have a SUV or Minivan if they have more than 1 kid. Big cars also are an option and in most ways, far better to drive.
I'm not sure why you're amazed that "one" has 260hp. They've all been somewhere in the 250hp range for a number of years. The exception would be the "base" model Dodge's that you find on the rental lots which is likely what you've driven. They're underpowered, usually smaller tires, and base suspension so they don't drive as well as others. The Odyssey drives better than most of the land-barges you've recommended (a Grand marquis...seriously..two words: steering feel), isn't far off on the mpg or performance and has a ton more space. A van or SUV is much easier to load stuff into and with kids comes a lot of stuff. Strollers, sporting gear, friends....it's nice to have to utility of a bigger vehicle with very little compromise. Maybe a couple mpg less is about it. Could we (as consumers) get by with large cars? Sure, but a lot of folks chose to buy something more convenient. Hard to beat power sliding doors when you're lugging a couple kids.
Ok - i'll check out a sentra, and take on my mechaniic as needed - and Thanks for mentioning being about to see the hood and rear - what's up with that? On -many- of these cars I can't see where the hood ends no matter what i do (the Fit was the worst offender). I can tolerate the plasticness of the corolla (have for 15 years) if it -handles- well. I need to do a test drive at a dealer that will give me the keys, or at least is situated away from traffic...
They can be, but only if they have a manual transmission with 5-6 shorter gears. The 4 cylinder Tacoma with a manual transmission is a good example of this. But it doesn't get more than about 25mpg as a result.
So I was thinking and came up with the best car for your situation. I'd somehow overlooked it, and it's just about the best in terms of options and low cost and gets good mileage as well.
Get a Scion TC. It's the perfect commuter car that's a level above the Corolla. $17-18K new, so that's also a plus. Get it pretty much as-is, but DO get the front and TRD brace and sway bar upgrades. Big improvement in handling.
The wheelbase is not a good judge of size. Use overall length (and width). 2 cars can be exactly the same size, while their wheelbases differ greatly (for example, you would never know how big a Suburban is based on its wheelbase since the rear end extends several feet beyond the rear wheel).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I guess there are different levels of comfort. Perhaps they want to bring along a guest every now and then. Why does everyone feel they need to change everyone's minds about their vehicle "needs" or wants. Five "adult size" people in a typical 5-passenger vehicle is not that fun IMHO. If I was broke I would compromise obviously...hey why not just get a Corolla. They'll fit one way or another.
Why does everyone feel they need to change everyone's minds about their vehicle "needs" or wants.
I'm not necessarily trying to do that. For example, for the other poster who wants an economy compact, I was not one of the many trying to sway him towards a luxo cruiser. :P
But it was just a question, as the poster did not state it in a way that made sense to me. There is no NEED for 3 rows when the reason given is because "I have 3 kids." The need is there if more than the 3 kids will be riding along, however. Or, better yet, state it as a want.
Not to mention, realistically, if you have 3 kids who are too big to sit side-by-side-by-side in a wide car/suv, there is NO 3-row suv that will offer them a comfortable seat way in the back (other than the largest of them, which will give horrible gas mileage, as the poster already indicated was a big no-no).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Yep, glad to know I'm not the only one finding it difficult to narrow down on a car - how inconsiderate of me .
Have a lot of pulls and pushes. But here is a list of features I'm looking for in order of priority: 1. Safety - have an infant kid 2. Minimal 4 door to seat atleast 5 people 3. Climate Control - currently drive a Honda Fit (with no climate control), used to drive a Honda Accord (with climate control) earlier 4. Smooth if not plush ride - not a fan of stiff rides 5. 2006 or newer model costing <20K - criteria for loan from credit union 6. Low maintenance cost 7. Not cheap interior = low end luxury??? 8. Good to have a Hatchback - more cargo space with folded back seats
Well... '06+ in the low-end luxo crowd that won't kill you on maintenance ... for under $20k is kind of a stiff order. Actually... depending on that maintenance thing, it might be an impossible order.
If you can give a little bit on the interior, I suggest looking at the Mazda5. I find the ride compliant enough and the interior nice enough. Safety is almost a nonissue on anything above sub-econo cars these days, given the proliferation of side airbags, front airbags, airbag airbags, etc, ABS, TCS, and more alphabet stuff.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
It's interesting that #8 is where it is. I would think if you wanted/needed a hatchback that would be higher on the list.
One that comes to mind is a VW Passat Wagon which nails everything but perhaps #6. There are ways to run VW's with low maintenance costs but it requires finding a good indi mechanic and avoiding the dealer once the warranty is up.
If you had a bit more flexibility to the cost (or shopped really hard) you might be able to squeeze into a 2009 Toyota Venza which also nails all your requirements AND should be reliable/cheap to own.
If you toss the hatchback requirement there are more options although to get #3 you've got to go to a high-end model. A Camry XLE, Accord EX-L, older Acura TSX. Most of the entry-level luxury cars in your price range are pretty small but you COULD fit 5 in them. It just comes down to what your comfort level.
One thing to watch closely is fitting a rear-facing infant seat in some of the smaller cars. It can be real tight.
qbrozen: Thanks for recommending Mazda5. Was not thinking about minivans earlier. It is not too big - seems to be kind of a microvan, something I can see myself driving. Checked the reviews - seems the only issue is power - just 157 HP. Could be a problem with highway merging.
sebring95: Your observation about hatchback is right. To me it is good to have for the occasional airport pickups. From Consumer Reviews, Passat seems to have some reliability issues - potential money pit, so I pass. Have to seriously consider Venza - a bit above my price point. Can you please list some entry-level luxury cars in my price range. Small size is ok with us - Honda Fit we use right now has presented no problems. And personally I prefer smaller cars.
fezo: Mazda6 does have a hatchback/wagon/sedan - all in my price range and with all features I need. Yes, reviews do mention kind of modest if not low quality interior - guess I'll have to test ride it this weekend and check for myself. Outback seems good - a bit bigger than my taste, also bordering my price point.
I'm thinking of visiting my local carmax and trying out Venza, Mazda5, Mazda6 and Outback if it does not seem too big.
Small size is ok with us - Honda Fit we use right now has presented no problems. And personally I prefer smaller cars.
Well the Fit has a decent back-seat compared to a lot of other small cars. Just a heads up because I've seen folks buy a car without considering car-seats and end up in a pickle. Some just do not fit. You might think the Venza is too big, I dunno. I'm not sure there's many entry-level Luxo's in your price range newer than 2006. Outside the TSX I mentioned earlier....maybe a high-mileage IS250. Another outside the hatchback class is the VW Jetta. You can pickup a '08 low-mileage base (with auto-climate) for mid-teens. Nice interior, good ride, but again consumer reports isn't a fan of anything that's not Japanese for the most part.
I personally am not scared of the least reliable vehicle out there because when you look at the raw point spread between best and worst it's only a couple problems in three years. Big deal. My Odyssey had a dozen problems in the first few years but it's still an excellent vehicle. I'd rather buy something I like/want and have a few problems vs compromising for something else. What's really annoying is when you buy something just because it's reliable and then it has a problem.
I read those complaints about power, too, but have never experienced a lack of it in ours. Even with a full load from CostCo, both kids, the wife, and me driving, it has more than enough. And, even fully empty, it can light up the front wheel from a standstill all through first gear. Not sure what more these reviewers could want. When a vehicle has enough power that the tires can keep traction from a stoplight, more power is useless.
And, yes, I find it a perfect size. I'm not sure how many folks see it in person and even consider it a van .... that is until you slide the doors open. Otherwise, it is a slightly large hatchback. The new Matrix looks just as large to me.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I can personally attest to the versatility, as well as the fun-to-drive characteristics of the Mazda5.
For family duty, it is perfect - sliding doors, good second row legroom, comfortable ride, good cargo space (with the 3rd row down).
When driving by myself, I feel like I am in a sporty car, almost as if I were driving a Mazda3. Gas mileage is also very respectable - consistently at 27-28 mpg with mostly highway driving.
The car only has 59k miles, and it has pretty new tires. Should still have some trade in value--maybe 5k?? Paid 15.7k back in the summer of 02. It's beginning to get the older car syndrome already--a few noises, etc. The dealer is trying to fix them (slight squeak in steering once in a while, and a shock or strut that may need replacing).
And--just found out it needs the timing belt replaced. I thought this was ten years/100k miles. But it turns out that regardless of mileage it needs to be replaced at 7-8 years. So, I'm looking at 800 bucks, because they also do the water pump at the same time. I was planning on keeping this car until it was ten years old, but now I'm thinking of making the jump this summer. The 02 Accord also lacks important safety features found in new cars--abs, stability, side air bags, etc.
Other car is a 2008 Accord that we love. It's a special ordered sedan with nav and the manual transmission. This model is no longer available for love or money. Love the nav, the bluetooth, and the manual, but...just can't get it anymore.
Requirements--we've got two kids (8 & 13) and so we need a fairly roomy car or wagon. Want good mpg (4 cylinder), and a manual transmission (that's the trick, ain't it).
Some possibilities:
Another Accord. Love Honda. Could probably get an EX cloth with the manual for a good price.
2011 Sonata--like the styling, the gdi engine seems powerful and economical (but what about longevity?), can get a manual in the base model--and it still has bluetooth. Wife isn't sure she ever wants to own a Hyundai. I'm not sure either. It has electric steering, which seems to be a curse with new cars these days. Accord still has hydraulic, which seems preferable for driving feel. Most others, even Acura, have gone electric, and I assume Accord will too pretty soon.
Audi A3. Love that little wagon. Can get it with a manual. Don't know about bluetooth or nav. With those I imagine it's out of our range which would top out at the high 20s. Had bad experiences with a VW in the 90s. Are Audis reliable these days?
Mini Clubman. Probably too small. But sounds entertaining to drive.
Acura TSX. Comes with a manual and nav. Smaller than the Accord we now have and gets lower mileage...? Very pricey.
I don't think you're going to get $5k for your Accord on trade. Maybe $2k. You'll need to private sale that and you'll get at least $5k. Somebody crazy might come along and give more....these can bring stupid money at times but not from a dealer.
VW Jetta Sportwagon is very nice and a more reasonable option to the Audi A3. Probably not Honda reliable (although neither is my Odyssey....) but far nicer IMHO. The problem with Audi is the cost and depreciation. Mazda 6 is nice and comes with a manual.
If you are looking for a 10-year car, I'd advise against VW/Audi. Too many horror stories to ignore. The new ones MIGHT be better, but that has yet to be proven.
Manual 4-cyl wagon immediately makes me think Subaru Impreza. I'd also strongly suggest the Mazda3. Outside shot would be the Nissan Versa hatch or Honda Fit.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
2k? ugh. That's lower than I thought. I might as well keep it if that's all it's worth. After that $800 belt/water pump service it'll probably go another 5 years without needing much...knock on wood.
The Jetta Wagon is a good option. I like it a lot, and you're right it's a lot less than the A3. Two things though--with its 5 cylinder engine it's probably pretty peppy, but it gets less mpg than my considerably larger 2008 Accord. I wish VW would put good engines in their entry level cars. The other problem is that I owned a VW long ago that was a nightmare beyond belief for service. I imagine they are better now, but probably not up to the quality of a Honda, which I'm used to.
I love the look of the Passat Wagon. Beautiful. Functional. Gets the same mpg as the smaller Jetta, costs about the same as an A3--but, no manual!
I'm a dying breed of manual only kind of guys.
But, if my 02 Accord is as worthless as you say, then I might as well keep driving it. It's got a manual after all...
sanjay: Yeah, things like that have gotten my attention. I really like the styling of the new Sonata, plus you get that powerful and economical gdi engine, plus bluetooth...all for about 10k less than a vw CC--which is a car I also like!
The Fit is pretty awesome. Way back in the late 80s, before I could afford a car, I really wanted one of the Civic Wagons of the time. The Fit is about that size, isn't it. Great mpg. Manual available. Plus it's a honda. But, kinda small. My wife wants safety/mass, and when I point out the Fit she just doesn't see it as being quite big enough.
If I didn't care about mpg or manual. the base Odyssey is actually a great deal--c.25k with discounts, and you get huge amounts of room and a huge 6 cylinder engine. We only need that much car once in a blue moon though...
It's only worth-less to a dealer. They want to make $3k-$4k on a used car which they can't do on that one. Since you've done the maintenance and it's low miles, it would be a very easy private sale and $5k would be easy.
VW seems to be hit or miss. I had an '00 Jetta TDI which had horrible reliability ratings from everyone yet I put 200k miles on it with less issues than my Odyssey has had in 50k miles. Either way, they're quite nice and drive great. If you want the mpg...go for the TDI sportwagon. Easty 35-40mpg in a relatively heavy and safe vehicle. Teh '09+ TDI is very livable, quiet, stink-less. A further upside is the resale value on the TDI's are always strong and at times STUPID. I sold mine in 2007 (market was up because of fuel prices) with 200k miles and recouped nearly 50% of what I paid.
Strongly agree with sebring95 that your car is a prime private sale candidate. I can tell you from personal experience that used Hondas sell quickly & fetch top dollar.
A couple of years ago, at c. 45,000 miles, I got new tires for the 02 Accord, and I got really top of the line Goodyears that are supposed to go up to 80k. I doubt they'll really go that long, but they still look really good. And they cost a fair amount...
Too bad you are way down south. Looks like my kind of car and in the right ballpark.
I would bet that if you put a for sale sign with your phone number on it and just parked it prominently you'd get folks wanting it. i've never had trouble selling a Honda. Other cars yes but never a Honda.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
But at this point in my life I'm not sure I want to deal with a private sale.
I hear you, brother. I'm close to that point myself. Still, give it a shot. Try it for one week. If you don't hit pay dirt, head over to the dealer & trade it in. (I sold a cosmetically challenged 12-year-old Accord in 1 day.)
fezo and jimbres: yeah, you might be right, if I say that I have all service records, oil changes every 5k, tires still under warranty from Goodyear, it's been driven pretty gently, the seats are in good shape (don't allow the kids to eat in it, and for the most part they haven't), $4500 obo... I've almost convinced myself to just keep it for a while. Where else can I find a car for that price that has that much life in it. And I suppose there's an upside to no abs, stability, etc., because there's less to go wrong with it. It's a simple, minimalist design. I dunno. I guess I'm a chronic car buyer wanna be. I don't really need a new car. I just want one. My wife is almost more itchy than I am to get rid of it...
My wife is almost more itchy than I am to get rid of it...
Ah! Then it can become more than a financial issue...
No ABS? My 00 Accord has ABS (now I'll have to check and make sure I'm not wrong.... My 99 Celica (anyone wanna buy a convertible that doesn't convert?) has it.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Some of the 98-02 Accords had abs, and some didn't. It happened that my lx manual did not have the abs. Some manuals could be had with the abs, but mine doesn't...
But you're right on the wife. For almost ever other car purchase I've had to do a lot to convince her, although in retrospect she's almost always been happy with what we bought. She just blanches, as do I, at the price of a new car. 20-30k! Yikes. Divided over 8-10 years it's not as bad, but up front that's a lot of dough. And my parents got by with cars that were a lot older than my 8 year old Accord....
Our 00 Accord is an EX. That's probably the difference.
I hate when they leave off safety equipment for the lower models. By 2000 ABS should have been on everything just as on a 2010 car I'd expect stability control.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I'd advise against VW/Audi. Too many horror stories to ignore. The new ones MIGHT be better, but that has yet to be proven.
When will it be "proven"? The current version of the Jetta has been out for 5 years now and I believe it has always rated average or above average for reliability in CR.
I was in similar situation as you. Had a 1995 G20 with 150K miles and still going strong. In the end I got rid of it not because there was something wrong but to get "newest safety" features that I can afford today. Something to think about.
Try putting it on a craigslist. Single owner, well maintained, clean cars are difficult to find. You might be surprised. I sold mine in one week.
I know you are enamored by HONDA. Take a good look. I got MDX as a G20 replacement. The quality of materials is not that great. My neighbor got an 08 accord and its been a big rattle box.
Take a good look at Infiniti G. I saw some advertised in southern cal for 30K. There seem to be some incentives. It is a nice vehicle. However I am not sure if you will get a manual in 30K.
You made me look it up. Pretty much average for the Jetta over the last 5 years with one year above average. That's not abd by any means. It and the Golf/Rabbit seem to be the best of the VW crop of late. The rest have fairly ugly reliability scores.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
sanjay: yeah, maybe I should consider infiniti....
My two Hondas have been good to me...which I can't say about my vw or ford from long ago...
Ok, so I took a test drive in a TSX tonight. Nice, nice car. I liked it a lot. It is fancier than my 08 exl Accord navi, but not by a lot. The leather was maybe slightly fancier. Had a power pass seat, memory seats, backup camera, etc. Smoooooth 6 speed manual. I have to admit I didn't have it completely down because I'm used to a 5mt.
I didn't have the 02 with me because it's in the shop, but from a detailed description they thought they could probably offer me c.4500 for it in trade. Whether they'd actually do that if they saw it, I don't know.
The TSX lists for 33.2k. They offered 2k off, and that seemed to be their bottom line. Seemed like it was really 1.5k off because they have a $499 "document service processing fee" that they wouldn't budge on.
Acura has 2.9 financing, which is good. Still, that gives a monthly payment of 518 for 5 years when all is said and done....
A plain old Accord without so many doo dads would be a lot less...Or, there's always our current accord with almost no doo dads at all--but also no payment at all....!
April 2010 CR has "predicted new car reliability", for VW models this is: Much better than average: CC and Golf Better than average: Jetta Average: Passat and GTI Worse than average: New Beetle and Eos Much worse than average: Toureg
interesting. The one model of vw I'm most interested in is the CC--and it's the top for reliability. The reason I'm interested is that it has a manual. Like the styling too, even if it's not entirely functional....it's actually a little less than a tsx, I think.
Are the turbo engines reliable? Do you need more frequent oil changes?
Comments
So buy the V8 version. Oh yeah I have one (GX470). It gets worse mpg than the V6 by a mile. It's called 4x4 drivetrain and the aerodynamics of a brick. Nothing to do with engine power and if you looked at any specs you'd know the 4runner has plenty of power with the V6. Actually, almost identical performance to the V8.
According to Car & Driver the DTS runs to 60 in 7 seconds. Sienna in 7.4. Sienna is 200# heavier. Makes me go Hmmmm. Oh I see....your math is bogus. DTS has 275HP to Sienna 266hp. That's not quite a 100hp gap according to my math. Yes DTS will do better on highway with tall gears and MUCH better aerodynamics. I can get 30mpg in a Corvette but it doesn't have three rows and cargo space like the poster narrowed down on her needs list.
If you're not going to read the posters requirements you might as well just blurt out car ideas like a drunk.
If you don't travel often, that would be an ok option. I've done this in the past and IMHO they both are a bit of a PITA but workable. If you travel ALOT as the original poster mentioned, it might be nice to not have to deal with that. My problem was we do a lot of airport runs and the cargo boxes aren't real fun for that.
The one we had did not require a roof rack and we did not have a roof rack on our first minivan.
Our second (and bigger) minivan did have a roof rack. But I don't think we ever used the car top carrier once we had that. In fact, I don't think we used the roof rack for anything except bringing the Christmas tree home.
My corolla has a 97" wheelbase, 1.8L engine, weighs 2300 lbs, and gets 28/34 MPG
the tsx has a 107" wheelbase, 2.4L engine, weighs 3500 lbs, and gets 21/30
the is250's numbers are 107.5, 2.5, 3650, 23/30
the new corolla is 102, 1.8, 2800, 26/34
the honda fit is 98, 1.5, 2600, 27/33
(oh, and the mazda 3 is 104, 2.3, 3221, 18/25).
The tsx, mazda3 and is250 are, I suppose "muscle cars", and I'll get to driving one sometime, but it just seems like these are such boats compared to my little, very agile corolla 8-}
thanks
/j
That said, IMO, the Corolla is the worst for the money. It just feels cheap and plasticy inside. The Civic is probably next best, then the Mazda. The Sentra SE-R comes in first place, IMO. The Civic doesn't win because the hood and rear are absolutely invisible to the driver, so parking almost needs a camera unless you love parking by touch.
*The last generation Civic Si with manual, is far better - a real shame, actually, that they dropped it. We we were talking manual as an option, the Civic Si would be the best choice, hands down.
And about the minivan, I'm amazed that that one has ~260HP. It certainly still drives like a toad. Just a vague lurching and uninspired mess. As are minivans and most SUVs these days. The same engine in an Avalon(or nearly identical) gets nearly 30mpg highway. I just don't understand why people are so set on thinking that they MUST have a SUV or Minivan if they have more than 1 kid. Big cars also are an option and in most ways, far better to drive.
I'm not sure why you're amazed that "one" has 260hp. They've all been somewhere in the 250hp range for a number of years. The exception would be the "base" model Dodge's that you find on the rental lots which is likely what you've driven. They're underpowered, usually smaller tires, and base suspension so they don't drive as well as others. The Odyssey drives better than most of the land-barges you've recommended (a Grand marquis...seriously..two words: steering feel), isn't far off on the mpg or performance and has a ton more space. A van or SUV is much easier to load stuff into and with kids comes a lot of stuff. Strollers, sporting gear, friends....it's nice to have to utility of a bigger vehicle with very little compromise. Maybe a couple mpg less is about it. Could we (as consumers) get by with large cars? Sure, but a lot of folks chose to buy something more convenient. Hard to beat power sliding doors when you're lugging a couple kids.
/thanks!
/j
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=40
In IIHS lingo "small" means 2500-3000 pounds, I believe. The next level they call minicars and they are, I believe, 2000-2500 pounds:
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=90
Get a Scion TC. It's the perfect commuter car that's a level above the Corolla. $17-18K new, so that's also a plus. Get it pretty much as-is, but DO get the front and TRD brace and sway bar upgrades. Big improvement in handling.
Hmmm... can you tell me why 3 boys equates to 3 rows? Do they each need their own row?
A wide enough 2nd row can fit 3 adults across easily. Our XC90 could fit 2 carseats and an adult with room to spare.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Reliable
Less Expensive (Compared to the options you mentioned)
Good Warranty
Better equipped compared to similarily priced vehicles from J3 or D3
The only negative I see with Hyundai is the "Image" but you seem to be a rational person who doesnt care too much about the image
I'm not necessarily trying to do that. For example, for the other poster who wants an economy compact, I was not one of the many trying to sway him towards a luxo cruiser. :P
But it was just a question, as the poster did not state it in a way that made sense to me. There is no NEED for 3 rows when the reason given is because "I have 3 kids." The need is there if more than the 3 kids will be riding along, however. Or, better yet, state it as a want.
Not to mention, realistically, if you have 3 kids who are too big to sit side-by-side-by-side in a wide car/suv, there is NO 3-row suv that will offer them a comfortable seat way in the back (other than the largest of them, which will give horrible gas mileage, as the poster already indicated was a big no-no).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Have a lot of pulls and pushes. But here is a list of features I'm looking for in order of priority:
1. Safety - have an infant kid
2. Minimal 4 door to seat atleast 5 people
3. Climate Control - currently drive a Honda Fit (with no climate control), used to drive a Honda Accord (with climate control) earlier
4. Smooth if not plush ride - not a fan of stiff rides
5. 2006 or newer model costing <20K - criteria for loan from credit union
6. Low maintenance cost
7. Not cheap interior = low end luxury???
8. Good to have a Hatchback - more cargo space with folded back seats
- Thanks in advance
If you can give a little bit on the interior, I suggest looking at the Mazda5. I find the ride compliant enough and the interior nice enough. Safety is almost a nonissue on anything above sub-econo cars these days, given the proliferation of side airbags, front airbags, airbag airbags, etc, ABS, TCS, and more alphabet stuff.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
One that comes to mind is a VW Passat Wagon which nails everything but perhaps #6. There are ways to run VW's with low maintenance costs but it requires finding a good indi mechanic and avoiding the dealer once the warranty is up.
If you had a bit more flexibility to the cost (or shopped really hard) you might be able to squeeze into a 2009 Toyota Venza which also nails all your requirements AND should be reliable/cheap to own.
If you toss the hatchback requirement there are more options although to get #3 you've got to go to a high-end model. A Camry XLE, Accord EX-L, older Acura TSX. Most of the entry-level luxury cars in your price range are pretty small but you COULD fit 5 in them. It just comes down to what your comfort level.
One thing to watch closely is fitting a rear-facing infant seat in some of the smaller cars. It can be real tight.
Do the 09s have a hatch available?
Maybe an 06 Outback?
sebring95: Your observation about hatchback is right. To me it is good to have for the occasional airport pickups.
From Consumer Reviews, Passat seems to have some reliability issues - potential money pit, so I pass.
Have to seriously consider Venza - a bit above my price point.
Can you please list some entry-level luxury cars in my price range. Small size is ok with us - Honda Fit we use right now has presented no problems. And personally I prefer smaller cars.
fezo: Mazda6 does have a hatchback/wagon/sedan - all in my price range and with all features I need.
Yes, reviews do mention kind of modest if not low quality interior - guess I'll have to test ride it this weekend and check for myself.
Outback seems good - a bit bigger than my taste, also bordering my price point.
I'm thinking of visiting my local carmax and trying out Venza, Mazda5, Mazda6 and Outback if it does not seem too big.
Thanks all for your input.
Good night !
Well the Fit has a decent back-seat compared to a lot of other small cars. Just a heads up because I've seen folks buy a car without considering car-seats and end up in a pickle. Some just do not fit. You might think the Venza is too big, I dunno. I'm not sure there's many entry-level Luxo's in your price range newer than 2006. Outside the TSX I mentioned earlier....maybe a high-mileage IS250. Another outside the hatchback class is the VW Jetta. You can pickup a '08 low-mileage base (with auto-climate) for mid-teens. Nice interior, good ride, but again consumer reports isn't a fan of anything that's not Japanese for the most part.
I personally am not scared of the least reliable vehicle out there because when you look at the raw point spread between best and worst it's only a couple problems in three years. Big deal. My Odyssey had a dozen problems in the first few years but it's still an excellent vehicle. I'd rather buy something I like/want and have a few problems vs compromising for something else. What's really annoying is when you buy something just because it's reliable and then it has a problem.
And, yes, I find it a perfect size. I'm not sure how many folks see it in person and even consider it a van .... that is until you slide the doors open. Otherwise, it is a slightly large hatchback. The new Matrix looks just as large to me.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
For family duty, it is perfect - sliding doors, good second row legroom, comfortable ride, good cargo space (with the 3rd row down).
When driving by myself, I feel like I am in a sporty car, almost as if I were driving a Mazda3. Gas mileage is also very respectable - consistently at 27-28 mpg with mostly highway driving.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
And--just found out it needs the timing belt replaced. I thought this was ten years/100k miles. But it turns out that regardless of mileage it needs to be replaced at 7-8 years. So, I'm looking at 800 bucks, because they also do the water pump at the same time. I was planning on keeping this car until it was ten years old, but now I'm thinking of making the jump this summer. The 02 Accord also lacks important safety features found in new cars--abs, stability, side air bags, etc.
Other car is a 2008 Accord that we love. It's a special ordered sedan with nav and the manual transmission. This model is no longer available for love or money. Love the nav, the bluetooth, and the manual, but...just can't get it anymore.
Requirements--we've got two kids (8 & 13) and so we need a fairly roomy car or wagon. Want good mpg (4 cylinder), and a manual transmission (that's the trick, ain't it).
Some possibilities:
Another Accord. Love Honda. Could probably get an EX cloth with the manual for a good price.
2011 Sonata--like the styling, the gdi engine seems powerful and economical (but what about longevity?), can get a manual in the base model--and it still has bluetooth. Wife isn't sure she ever wants to own a Hyundai. I'm not sure either. It has electric steering, which seems to be a curse with new cars these days. Accord still has hydraulic, which seems preferable for driving feel. Most others, even Acura, have gone electric, and I assume Accord will too pretty soon.
Audi A3. Love that little wagon. Can get it with a manual. Don't know about bluetooth or nav. With those I imagine it's out of our range which would top out at the high 20s. Had bad experiences with a VW in the 90s. Are Audis reliable these days?
Mini Clubman. Probably too small. But sounds entertaining to drive.
Acura TSX. Comes with a manual and nav. Smaller than the Accord we now have and gets lower mileage...? Very pricey.
Other cars? Any thoughts?
VW Jetta Sportwagon is very nice and a more reasonable option to the Audi A3. Probably not Honda reliable (although neither is my Odyssey....) but far nicer IMHO. The problem with Audi is the cost and depreciation. Mazda 6 is nice and comes with a manual.
Manual 4-cyl wagon immediately makes me think Subaru Impreza. I'd also strongly suggest the Mazda3. Outside shot would be the Nissan Versa hatch or Honda Fit.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Other two were Accord and Legacy
2k? ugh. That's lower than I thought. I might as well keep it if that's all it's worth. After that $800 belt/water pump service it'll probably go another 5 years without needing much...knock on wood.
The Jetta Wagon is a good option. I like it a lot, and you're right it's a lot less than the A3. Two things though--with its 5 cylinder engine it's probably pretty peppy, but it gets less mpg than my considerably larger 2008 Accord. I wish VW would put good engines in their entry level cars. The other problem is that I owned a VW long ago that was a nightmare beyond belief for service. I imagine they are better now, but probably not up to the quality of a Honda, which I'm used to.
I love the look of the Passat Wagon. Beautiful. Functional. Gets the same mpg as the smaller Jetta, costs about the same as an A3--but, no manual!
I'm a dying breed of manual only kind of guys.
But, if my 02 Accord is as worthless as you say, then I might as well keep driving it. It's got a manual after all...
Wouldn't get an old VW or audi.
The Fit is pretty awesome. Way back in the late 80s, before I could afford a car, I really wanted one of the Civic Wagons of the time. The Fit is about that size, isn't it. Great mpg. Manual available. Plus it's a honda. But, kinda small. My wife wants safety/mass, and when I point out the Fit she just doesn't see it as being quite big enough.
If I didn't care about mpg or manual. the base Odyssey is actually a great deal--c.25k with discounts, and you get huge amounts of room and a huge 6 cylinder engine. We only need that much car once in a blue moon though...
VW seems to be hit or miss. I had an '00 Jetta TDI which had horrible reliability ratings from everyone yet I put 200k miles on it with less issues than my Odyssey has had in 50k miles. Either way, they're quite nice and drive great. If you want the mpg...go for the TDI sportwagon. Easty 35-40mpg in a relatively heavy and safe vehicle. Teh '09+ TDI is very livable, quiet, stink-less. A further upside is the resale value on the TDI's are always strong and at times STUPID. I sold mine in 2007 (market was up because of fuel prices) with 200k miles and recouped nearly 50% of what I paid.
I'll still probably ask what the dealer will take for it, but after what you've said my expectations won't be that high...
I would bet that if you put a for sale sign with your phone number on it and just parked it prominently you'd get folks wanting it. i've never had trouble selling a Honda. Other cars yes but never a Honda.
I hear you, brother. I'm close to that point myself. Still, give it a shot. Try it for one week. If you don't hit pay dirt, head over to the dealer & trade it in. (I sold a cosmetically challenged 12-year-old Accord in 1 day.)
Ah! Then it can become more than a financial issue...
No ABS? My 00 Accord has ABS (now I'll have to check and make sure I'm not wrong.... My 99 Celica (anyone wanna buy a convertible that doesn't convert?) has it.
But you're right on the wife. For almost ever other car purchase I've had to do a lot to convince her, although in retrospect she's almost always been happy with what we bought. She just blanches, as do I, at the price of a new car. 20-30k! Yikes. Divided over 8-10 years it's not as bad, but up front that's a lot of dough. And my parents got by with cars that were a lot older than my 8 year old Accord....
I hate when they leave off safety equipment for the lower models. By 2000 ABS should have been on everything just as on a 2010 car I'd expect stability control.
When will it be "proven"? The current version of the Jetta has been out for 5 years now and I believe it has always rated average or above average for reliability in CR.
Try putting it on a craigslist. Single owner, well maintained, clean cars are difficult to find. You might be surprised. I sold mine in one week.
I know you are enamored by HONDA. Take a good look. I got MDX as a G20 replacement. The quality of materials is not that great. My neighbor got an 08 accord and its been a big rattle box.
Take a good look at Infiniti G. I saw some advertised in southern cal for 30K. There seem to be some incentives. It is a nice vehicle. However I am not sure if you will get a manual in 30K.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
My two Hondas have been good to me...which I can't say about my vw or ford from long ago...
Ok, so I took a test drive in a TSX tonight. Nice, nice car. I liked it a lot. It is fancier than my 08 exl Accord navi, but not by a lot. The leather was maybe slightly fancier. Had a power pass seat, memory seats, backup camera, etc. Smoooooth 6 speed manual. I have to admit I didn't have it completely down because I'm used to a 5mt.
I didn't have the 02 with me because it's in the shop, but from a detailed description they thought they could probably offer me c.4500 for it in trade. Whether they'd actually do that if they saw it, I don't know.
The TSX lists for 33.2k. They offered 2k off, and that seemed to be their bottom line. Seemed like it was really 1.5k off because they have a $499 "document service processing fee" that they wouldn't budge on.
Acura has 2.9 financing, which is good. Still, that gives a monthly payment of 518 for 5 years when all is said and done....
A plain old Accord without so many doo dads would be a lot less...Or, there's always our current accord with almost no doo dads at all--but also no payment at all....!
April 2010 CR has "predicted new car reliability", for VW models this is:
Much better than average: CC and Golf
Better than average: Jetta
Average: Passat and GTI
Worse than average: New Beetle and Eos
Much worse than average: Toureg
Are the turbo engines reliable? Do you need more frequent oil changes?