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Comments
I've seen engine oil coolers, which are standard on the auto, being put in the 5 speeds.
John: yes, Imprezas get a donut. I'll take the full-sizer any day. In fact we removed the foam from my wife's Legacy to fit in a full size spare, which we replaced the donut with.
-juice
Anyway, I have it in for the 15k mi service and I mentioned this clutch problem and the service writer said they would look at it. Since it's warm and dry today I figured they would say it was fine, but they just called and said they are going to replace the whole clutch with upgraded parts!!! I was so surprised and happy I almost cried. Congratulations Subaru, you've earned a customer for life. Keep it up!!
Now, how much is that Turbo Forester again?
Dan Jaecks
-juice
Hands down a better vehicle...
Steering much quicker.
Brakes, much firmer than the 98's
Manual vs auto, no contest. The 98 was on it's second clutch and still chattered. Auto has nice crisp shifts. I'm not thrilled about the gated shifter though.
Handling is flatter and firmer on 03.
Engine, much quieter, the DOHC always had mucho valve train noise and the start of piston slap also.
Economy looks even so far.
Ergonomics, about the same, except that auto climate control still has me confused...What does the "bright" switch do? and when do the outside mirror defrosters go on, when you hit the defroster, wiper blade heater or rear defroster?
Headlights much better on 03 as well.
I'm only at 450 miles so far, will come back with another report at 5,000.
Regards
Ron & Liv
I have noticed by checking a dipstick of my brand new 2.5x, that oil level drops approx. 1mm every 1000Km. I have approx 3500Km on the Clock so far.
I know that for some cars it is normal to consume oil while it is running in.
The questions are: Is it normal for Forester at this rate ? Should it stop using oil and if so when ? And also, does anyone know, what is the actual volume of oil in the pan between LO and FULL on the dipstick?
BTW I'm checking an oil level on the same spot in the morning - when engine is COLD.
Thanks in advance......Vitaly
PS, I still would have bought another SUBARU as they have always given me great service, this shudder may have made me consider my 1st automatic in over 30 yrs of driving.
Whatever. I'm glad to hear you like the new generation model. I'm planning on trading my 99' Forester for the new 04' XT this fall, and its good to hear that the upgrade will include more than just the new engine.
-Bob
When the 98L was cold there were a few valves that clacked and ticked for awhile till warm. Then at about 60K I started to hear some piston slap, which got quieter when hot but never completely abated and was getting much worse at 76k.
Ron
http://isuzu-suvs.com/svx
-mike
DaveM
When the outside light on a bright day makes it tough to see where the indicator lights are on the climate control, pressing and holding the Bright button for a couple of seconds will actually brighten the green indicator lights around the climate control dials. If you don't hold it for a couple of seconds it turns the system off.
"...and when do the outside mirror defrosters go on, when you hit the defroster, wiper blade heater or rear defroster?"
Since you have the all weather package (AWP) - there is a separate button on the lower left next to the Cruise control and Foglamp switch that turns the mirrors on when the windshield wiper defroster is turned on. - You can double check that in the owners manual but I'm about 99% sure of that.
I wasn't thrilled with the gated shifter at first, but now I really like it. - I found after the first few days shifting is just as routine as before - unless I stop to think about it.
Hope your as happy with yours as I am with mine.
Larry
Thanks for the info...
-Bob
russski - I never measured the rate, but both my 02 Forester w/ 17k miles and my 96 OBS need a little oil (less than a quart) between oil changes. I usually change oil ever 5k miles.
rjweiss - May be different on the 03, but on my 02 the heated mirrors go on with the rear defroster. I remember it because I'm looking backwards in both cases.
My first instinct it to try to find someone to fix it. Does anyone think it's unsafe to do so?
If I can't get it fixed, how important is the admonition to make sure all tires are the same age/wear? Is there some way I can I deal with one tire with 18K less than the others? I take good care of them (except for nails) and there is a lot of tread left. Do I really have to say good-bye to three tires?
If I do have to buy a new set, what's the best recommendation? I live in Atlanta, so there's not much snow or ice. I saw someone on this board once describe the Forester as an "any-road vehicle." If I'm lucky, I test that once or twice a month (forest service roads in the mountains of N. Ga. - graded every few years, maybe some Florida sand). Otherwise, normal in-town/highway driving.
Thanks for any and all advice.
Bob Anderson
The tire shop I took it to agreed to fix it on the condition that they put my new spare on the damaged tire's rim and the damaged tire went on my steel spare rim. Since they only charged me $20.00 for the whole operation I have to believe they were on the level.
The shop also measured my treadwear and said I was good to go with 5k of wear on the other 3 tires.
I have heard of tire shops that can "trim" down a new tire to the same size as the older tires so you don't have to replace a whole set. I'm sure that it was someone on this board that mentioned that, although I don't remember if it was a chain store or a specialty shop. Anyone remember?
HTH
Larry
Here's one thread about tread:
anonymous02 "Tires, tires, tires" Mar 14, 2002 4:26pm
Steve, Host
So I went out at lunch and checked and was initially pleased to confirm the existence of these slots! BUT... and this is a big but, it does not fit with the FULL SIZED spare tire.
My guess is that this feature is to be used in countries where a compact limited use spare is standard, which explains why this feature is not mentioned anywhere in the U.S. instruction manual. Bummer.
However, if you haven't already discovered, the cover DOES just barely fit across the floor of the rear seat on all '98 - '03 Foresters (basically from speaker grill to speaker grill), so there's still a place to put it in a pinch when you've got no rear seat passengers.
--Elliot
If that doesn't work, my guess is that you're borderline for needing to replace all four tires. Subaru's rule is that all four need to be within 1/4" in diameter. If one is off it can cause friction in the differential.
If you decide you need new "shoes", Tirerack.com is a good site for researching tires. The Dunlop SP Sport A2 is a popular choice for the Forester. However, with 50k on my OE tires, I'm in the market for replacements and I really can't complain about the stock Geolanders so I'm leaning towards getting another set.
Hope this help.
-Frank P.
Edit- Local tire store has the Dunlop A2s on sale at a price that matches Tirerack's so I'm going to go ahead and get them.
1) How did you hook it up and why? Series or parallel? Is there a preferred method. From what I've heard, seems like the best way is to put the cooler in series BEHIND the stock cooler.
2) Have you noticed any negative effects from the cooler? Is it possible to overcool your transmission so it never comes up to operating temp? And are you using synthetic fluid? Thanks
And my heated mirrors come on with the rear defroster too, I know this because I've never used the front one before, but I still see the mirrors clearing up
For the tire, I think you might be able to patch it yourself, if you think it's safe. I patched my own tire after the tire shop refused to work on it because it's "unsafe", I think they just wanted to sell me a new tire. I used one of those plug kits, and drove it for another 30k before changing tires. If it's on the sidewall, I wouldn't try it, but if it's more on the tread, you might as well try it. What about using one of those tire fillers that prevent leaks, the green goop? You have nothing to lose.
If you do get a new tire, check the circumference to make sure it's close to the other three. If it's not, you can shave the tire or use the spare tire (should be the same size). If you're really worried about them being different sized, I'd put the new tire in the front, if you have a LSD, and disconnect the AWD. Then you could run two different sized tires without messing anything up.
Thanks for the reply on my switch questions.
Anyone want a good quality tire try the Aquatread III, bought them for my 98L Forester and had exceptional dry traction, and of course in the wet they could not be beat. Even worked pretty well in snow, something I couldn't figure out...maybe the deep channels redirect the snow as well as water.
Ron & Liv
DaveM
Bob Anderson
Bob A- I don't honestly remember where I got it plugged. I think it was a place on Scott Blvd. However, you can always go to Autozone and plug it yourself (it's not exactly rocket science). I got my tire patched at the Goodyear service center next to the North Dekalb Mall (as you can see, I'm also in Decatur). That same Goodyear shop also has the A2s on sale. $421 for 4 tires mounted, balanced and out the door (sale good thru Sat).
As to whether you're tempting fate if you don't replace all four, I'm not qualified to answer that. It does seem a stretch that Subaru's AWD system is that sensitive.
Good luck and keep us posted.
-Frank P.
Bob
I did some simple math:
Assume a new tire diameter of 26.2 inches - this from tirerack.com for the GEO 900's on my 03,
so 26.2 * 3.14159 = 82.309658 inches for the circumference. I assume pi * diameter hasn't gone out of vogue for a circumference calculation....
If we reduce the circumference by 0.25 inches, we have 82.309658 - 0.25 = 82.059658 inches.
If we divide 82.309658 by 82.059658 we get 1.00304 or about 0.304% difference.
If my math is correct then we're saying for a stock Geolander 0.30% is the limit. That's a mighty fine tolerence.
I tried that with revolutions over a given mile and the difference is less than 3 revs/mile.
So for the true gearheads out there - is this a for real tolerence? Is the (limited slip)differential so sensitive that 0.3% is a killer?
BTW as a cavaet to the quality of my math, tirerack and I get different numbers for revs per mile.
Sorry for the long winded post, but I bet I'm not the only one wondering about this.
Any thoughts? Anyone?
Larry
Don't forget the tire pressure and velocity, that would also affect the rotational speeds of each tire. I bet the AWD system can handle a greater difference than .25 in circumference in most cases, but in certain extreme cases, something bad might happen, so they just rate it under worst case conditions.
So Bob, if the plug/patch doesn't hold, are you willing to be our guinea pig in this matter? :-)
-Frank P.
I did report 10k and 7 months ago that I had a puncture in the G-900's that was too close to the side wall and was not repairable. There were none in town (Portland, OR) and one had to be ordered from CA and it took 5 days. Needless to say I was pixxed!
Now 10k later another puncture unfixable, no tires in town did I order a new one? no.
Without thinking about shaving tires and switching rims/spare etc etc. I went back to my old stand by the Z-800 100k Toyo Ultra. I had these on the 91 Legacy and traded it in with 75k on the tires 130k on the car. These tires are smooth runners, agile, good in rain and snow. I can't say enough about Mr Schwab and his tire dynasty in USA NW.
I have now purchased all 5 tires new.
SInce we can measure diameter and get the same thing.
Vitaly: you speak of 1mm differences in the oil level. I would be surprised if you could read the dipstick with that much accuracy. The level will vary from reading to reading based on numerous factors (slope of the ground, ambient temp, temp of the engine, how long it has been off, phase of the moon, etc...). Don't worry about minor changes in level, especially during break-in. When you start losing quarts (usually the difference between the full and low lines on the dipstick) then it's time to worry!
deepdrop: are you sure the tires were cold? If you drove any significant distance or at a high speed (highway), the tires would heat up quite a bit and you could easily get another 4-5 psi just based on the temp increase. I would not be surprised if the dealer left too much air in the tires, but definitely check the pressure cold (not in the sun either) to be sure.
Frank: you discovered the reason why it's better to tow with an auto trans than a manual. Towing is really tough on a clutch, unless it's a heavy duty unit designed for this kind of thing (say, truck clutches). My neighbor, a landscaper, switched from manual transmission to auto in his new truck for this very reason.
I can remember some exciting moments on the boat ramp when I was a kid. Whenever we towed our boats with a manual transmission vehicle, there would always be some wheel slippage and clutch stink unless my dad finessed it just right. The autos made it a non-event to get the boat out of the water -- just put it in 1 and press on the gas.
Going in reverse may actually be tougher on the clutch, as reverse is sometimes a taller ratio than first gear (depends on the car, I suppose). If so, it would require more slippage to get going. Anybody know the ratios on the Forester?
Craig
Subaru specially states (noted at http://www.endwrench.com) to measure the circumference of an unloaded tire around the center of the tread. To me, this would be much easier and probably more accurate than measuring the diameter of an unloaded tire. Of course, those with 30" calipers would have no problem measuring diameter. ;-)
DaveM
according to the PDF from the Australian website, Forester's gear ratios are:
Type Automatic Manual
Gear ratio 1st 2.785 3.454
Gear ratio 2nd 1.545 2.062
Gear ratio 3rd 1.000 1.448
Gear ratio 4th 0.694 1.088
Gear ratio 5th 0.78
Gear ratio Rev 2.272 3.333
I don't think they would be different in NA models (why would Subaru build a different transmission?), but Australians do get High/Low transfer case (1.196).
I connected mine in series with the in-radiator cooler. I have the hot line going into the stock cooler then into the aftermarket cooler then back to the AT. This cooler is between the condensor and the radiator. It is possible to overcool or not heat up your ATF quickly enough with such a cooler, but I haven't experienced that at all on the SVX. For the summer I'm thinking of actually disconnecting the stock one because I think it's actually heating up the ATF more than it needs to be in race situations. The reason for the cooler is that on the SVX heat is known to cook the ATs so no reason to risk it especially with running it on the track about 2 track days a month. I'm planning on going to Redline Synthetic High Temp ATF which will hold it's properties ~70 degrees higher than std ATF fluid.
For racing I also disconnect the AC Compressor wires and run the AC, this will keep my fans turning and pulling cool air over the radiator. In addition I put in Water Wetter for the coolant to help keep the engine side extra cool.
-mike
-Frank P.
So, a good way to look at it is incrementally: any change in circumference is proportional to the change in radius. The constant of proportionality is 2*pi (2*3.141592654...). Assuming all your tires are otherwise equal, you can get a measure of the difference in circumference due to wear just by measuring the tread depth. If one of the tires, say a new one, had 0.1" more tread depth, the difference in circumference would be:
deltaC = 2*pi*deltaR = 2*pi*(0.10) = 0.628"
and clearly the tire would be way out of spec. Anyway, the main point it that we should be able to do this by measuring the difference in radius, not the radius (or diameter) itself.
Craig
You could measure diameter, circumference, radius, whatever, but what really matters is the circumference of the tire, and that's the easiest to measure, so you might as well do it that way. Measuring the diameter or radius of a tire is pretty difficult. I suppose you could use tread depth as an indication, but I do not know how accurate that would be. You would have to assume the bottom of the tread on all 4 of the tires is are the same diameter, and I seriously doubt that's true. Even with the exact same size and brand of tire, there's always some tolerance. I've compared two new "identical" tires and noticed a slight difference between them.
Anyway, now I'm curious as about this. I wonder, maybe if I jack up one side of my car with the wheel in the air, I can start spinning it until I can see the LSD start to take affect. I've done it before, and I'm pretty sure i can spin it about 60 rpm without noticing anything (I'm too lazy to calculate how that translates to diameter differences). So if it can take that much speed difference, i dont' think 1/4 inch or more would make a difference. I don't know about the center diff though, maybe that's more sensitive. hmm..now that i think about it, it's probably less sensitive since it's averaging the speeds of the two wheels. Either way, I would almost be willing to bet that the 1/4 tolerance subaru specifies is on the very conservative side of things. Because if they don't specify it, someone's going to try and use a doughnut spare to drive across country, and wonder why their diff is smoking.
Bob
Then assume an extra 0.1 inch of depth would bring the diameter out to 26.4 (radius = 13.1 + 0.1 = 13.2*2 = 26.4).
I know I'm using an increasing diameter vs. a decreasing one, but it really shouldn't matter since we're after a relative change.
So going back to circumference, which is what started this, 26.2 * pi = 82.3097 & 26.4 * pi = 82.938 which gives us back Craig's delta of .628 - ain't math grand when it works?
So percentage wise we're at 0.76% delta - still a really tight number. But - on a straight inches/inches number (63360 / 82.3097 = 769.77 rev/mile and 63360 / 82.938 = 763.94 rev/mile) we start to hit ducktapeguy's number of 6 rpm (assuming he meant 6 revs/mile ?).
So maybe 0.1 inch delta in treadwear is a good rule of thumb to think about going out of spec as 0.1 inch is only a little more than 3/32's of treadwear.
I'm sorry to be hammering this into the ground, but like most of you I've got a lot of bucks tied up in my Forester (and my Outback) so I'd like to come up with a good rule of thumb for ditching the tires when I lose one.
BTW re: revs/mile - Tirerack's published revs/mile is 792. The Miata's site link above yields 771 revs/mile & a straight inches/inches calculation yields 769 revs/min. So Tirerack appears to be much higher than either my number or the miata.net site.
Thanks for all the feedback
Larry
c_hunter - that is a good way to look at it.
Most tread depths are measured in 32nds. A new tire has 10 - 12 (I think the Geos have 10). Subaru's tolerances of .25 inch in circumference = 0.25 / (2*pi) = 0.04 inch in radius, which is just a little more than 1/32 inch!
I believe a tire is legally bald with 2/32 of tread left, which is when the wear bars show, so there are about 8/32 inch of usuable tread, so to stay within Subaru's tolerance (assuming perfect tires and inflation, etc.) one tire can't have much more than 1/8 more wear than another.
If we assume a life span of 40000 miles for the tires (generous for the Geos), then the tires have to be within about 5000 miles of each other in age.
This is absolutely nuts. Subaru is effectively saying that you can't use your spare tire once your car is much more than 5000 miles old!!!
Another way to look at this is the 0.3% difference in circumference yields about 2 extra rotations per mile on the smaller tire. At 60 miles per hour, this is a difference of 2 RPM (e.g. 772 RPM vs 770). Seems like a pretty small difference.
Has anyone actually seen any problem with using a spare tire or new tire on these cars to replace a fairly well worn tire??? (Say a tire with 15000 or more on it.)
Another thing is that 0.04 inches in radius is tiny compared with how much your sidewalls flex if one tire is low on air. 10 PSI difference in inflation would probably give you 10 times that much difference in radius (I'm guessing here).
This just doesn't seem reasonable, does anyone have an actual reference to a Subaru document that gives this tolerance?
It's not like FWD, which tends to carry 62% of the weight, 100% of the steering, 90% braking, and 100% of the acceleration duties.
AWD splits the accelerating duties, plus the weight is distributed more evenly. So it's not like you have a bald front tire with hardly worn rears, which happens with FWD when you forget to rotate.
Ron: I have to say, you're very perceptive. Few have mentioned the quicker steering ratio, you might be the first (OK, maybe second). It went from something like 19:1 to 16:1.
Also, the stock rear sway bar is thicker, plus the tuning is revised slightly.
-juice
Another link stating that as little as 1/4" difference in circumference can cause binding in turns:
http://www.endwrench.com/pdf/drivetrain/RearAxleBindingInfoF99.pd- f
DaveM
So basically, after you've put a few thousand miles on your tires, your full size spare makes a nice piece of ballast in the rear end of the car. Ouch.
My wife's Outback has the fuse for disabling AWD when you put on the donut. Does anyone know if the 03 Forester's do as well? I've seen a spot for it in the fuse box, I think, but is it still capable of being activated?
Larry
-juice
http://www.subaru.com/owners/care/carcaretips/middle.jsp?pageID=2
If subaru says 1/4 inch, and in the rotation they don't say to rotate the spare tire, I wonder what would happen if you put the followed all the maintenence and put the spare tire on and destroyed the transmission? Seems like they couldn't blame you since you followed the rotation specs. Anyway, I have put my spare on after about 25k on the original tires, drove it like that for a while, and I didn't notice any problems.
I wish there was someone from subaru that could give us a definitive answer on this.
Hmmm... just the type question that Patti use to be so good about getting answered.
-Frank P.
Cheers
Pat