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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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Comments

  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Agreed. You can't build a lasting luxury franchise around trucks. You've got to have fast, sexy, drool-worthy cars. Look at BMW & MB. They don't need to sell trucks to pay the rent.

    Anyway, if my NYC suburb is an accurate reflection of the changing tastes of the affluent, the Range Rover is now the favorite expensive SUV. I'm seeing fewer Escalades than I was a couple of years ago. Successful plumbing contractors still drive 'em, but the Wall St. investment banker types have fallen in love with the RR.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    It's the same around here. The RR is the darling of highly paid execs and Stepford wives alike. The Escalade still makes a statement, but it seems less are wanting to make that statement (not that I personally see a RR as being much different).

    I notice lots of kids are drooling over RRs too, and some of the younger trust funders around here actually get one (or the keys to their moms)

    Caddy needs to keep up the progress with its cars. Don't stop now, as the competition jumps ahead all the time.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The RR is seen as more understated luxury then the flashy Slade. You have to know its capablities and how it is made to understand why it costs so much.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Oh it lives!!!

    I keep my GM vehicles for 10 years on average, not 3. My friends on the east coast have had mixed results with ALL makes, including my friend who's '00 Accord went :lemon: :lemon: :lemon: on him at only 130k. Another friend bought a '98 Accord coupe w/ 120k on it that she HAD to have for 8 grand, even though I showed her an ad for a '97 Acura coupe (same car, essentially) w/65k miles for $6,800, and she lost the tranny 2 MONTHS LATER (private buy, sorry Charlie). They aren't posting here, and neither are your friends, I believe. MOST of the people here SEEM to have an unremarkable experience w/ GM, not great, but not TERRIBLE. YOU seem to be the only one that cries the blues over GM here.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    lemko:
    I had a beautiful 1979 Buick Electra Park Avenue isn Charcoal Grey Firemist with a silver top and "Oyster" leather interior and the chrome factory wheels. It also had that excellent 403 V-8. I had absolutely no problems with that car. Unfortunately, I totalled it in an accident in 1989

    pletko:

    Take for instance, the last four cars my parents have had. 2 Lesabres and two Park Avenues. All four were top-trim "Ultra" or "Limited" models. They are/were indestructible and lasted 18 and 17 years, plus 12 on the current Park Ave and 8 on the current LeSabre. Very little work done on the Last two(the first two cost more to maintain, but the idea that they fall apart after 3-4 years... 18 years is a good run for any car.)

    laurasdada:

    In my 25 years of car buying, I had never bought a domestic 'till my '99 Chrysler 300M. Really enjoyed that car. While not as well built or as completely reliable as my Japaneese fleet, I really have nothing bad to say about it. But, I wasn't going to keep it past 70,000 miles

    displacedtexan:

    My Mom's 1978 Olds 98 was also very reliable. I don't recall my Dad grousing about any mechanical problems

    I don't see any BAD comments about TERRIBLE products here, do you?
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Culled from our friends at Autoblog:

    The new issue of Motor Trend arrived in the mail and our eyes were instantly attracted to this story that just went live on motortrend.com. The MT crew has learned that the supercharged V8 slated for use in the next-gen Cadillac CTS-V will be none other than a "detuned" version of the 7.0L LS7 powerplant debuting in the Corvette Blue Devil, or rather, Corvette Z07. The MT editors expect the version used in the CTS-V to produce about 600 horsepower, or around 100 horses short of what the Z07 will produce.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Escalade is the only Cadillac that interests me. Can't get the wife to like the looks. She likes the comfort and ride. Just waiting for a nice luxury SUV with diesel to hit CA dealers. Or I may buy one out of state. I would rather get 30 MPG on the HWY than 18-20 MPG.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    HMMMM....Imagine that Escalade w/ a Duramax and Allison auto.....
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    V6 diesel would be plenty for me. I am not interested in 0-60, I want 600-800 miles between fuel stops. I was happy with the Sprinter diesel 5 cylinder with tiptronic 5 speed. Great engine and transmission. Maybe the new CAFE regs will wake up the manufacturers.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Do not look for diesels here in US soon. The new emission regs for diesels will knock out all those being sold today and the near future. Not sure when they go into effect though. Does anybody?

    I do know that the emission systems out now to meet todays regs are very expensive.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    FWIW, Mercedes currently sells a diesel in 45 states:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/12686/2007-mercedes-benz-e320-bluetec.html

    I could only speculate on any other diesel availability here – but if BMW decides to bring their 335d to the US, I’d probably at least test drive one.

    And I have seen no credible reports that GM \ Caddy will market a diesel anytime soon.

    - Ray
    Torque addict . . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would say that GM will get caught with their pants down on the diesel vehicles that are scheduled for 50 state sales next year. Honda, VW and Mercedes will all have diesel vehicles in CA next year. BMW may also. It is really the only way they can make the new CAFE regs that are proposed by Congress. It will be a sales bonanza at least in CA where the buyers are starved for high mileage choices other than the Prius or some little tin can car.

    PS
    Cadillac will have to do better than the last diesel they offered.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Ford should have diesels for light duty trucks/SUVs in less then two years according to what I hear. They are still much farther out for cars.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    This one is good enough for Europe. GM needs to bust a move and find a way to bring it here.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I agree, that looks like what GM needs to keep in the mileage race. I guess it is an easier sell to the better educated EU.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    And today, from CNN.com:

    http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/01/autos/diesels/

    One quote:

    "Neither Ford nor GM has any plans to try again with diesel passenger cars or SUVs for their home market. It wouldn't be cost-effective for them, a Ford spokesman said, because Ford cars available in Europe as diesels aren't sold here. And the market is too small for them to develop U.S.-only diesels."
    2022 X3 M40i
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    FWIW, Mercedes currently sells a diesel in 45 states:
    The Bluetec system meets today's emmission regs. Well it will starting January '08.

    Issue is that the tier 2 BIN 5 requirements are todays standards. It is the next set of standards that will require a breakthru in diesel emission technology. sure the makers can always figure something out to meet them but at what cost? Mercedes can probably get away with adding another couple thousand but few others can do it.

    but then again engineers are very creative and breakthrus will probably come.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If VW can do it in a midsized car why not GM? VW diesels sell very well without the biggest market CA. The premium is about $1000. The premium on my 2005 Passat TDI was only $200 over the 4 cylinder gas, and less than the V6 Passat. As much as I like my GM PU trucks, unless they come up with a smaller diesel than the 3/4 ton behemoth, I am moving to greener pastures.

    A Caddy SRX with that nice 2.9L diesel would be a sweet ride in my book.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    GM did have diesel's back in the late 70's. I had an 78 Olds 98 with the diesel V8. Got about the same fuel economy that I was getting with my 98 Olds Aurora.

    If synthetic fuel can be made out of coal at a cost a $1 per gallon (~$40 to $45 per barrel), I don't see the current prices for gasoline staying high too long.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I believe that diesel is be made from coal, not gasoline. So you will need to get a diesel car. I don't think the diesel built by GM in the late 1970s is a good example of GM engineering. Maybe one of the worst.
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    cooterbfd --

    Like I said good for you, my experience has been different. And my friends aren't posting on here because unlike you and I, they have a life, did you ever think of that?

    All one has to do is look at GM's history or compare any of their cars today to the competition and we can see the type of crap they've passed onto us:

    Many of their cars still have TERRIBLE FIT AND FINISH

    TERRIBLE RESALE VALUE

    PIPE DREAM LIKE ECOLOGY TECH- : FlexFuel. Where is FlexFuel available? In MIchigan, and that's the only state it's available? What about the other states? Oh and this type of fuel costs more than what we're currently using... Why not go with a tried and true technology--HYBRID. But oh, they can't do that, cause those darn [non-permissible content removed] invented it :sick: . And they can't let those [non-permissible content removed] upstage them. They've been upstaging them for over 30 years now. Get used to it GM. And don't tell me this isn't their mentality, cause I"ve seen this blatant racism from GM broadcasted on national television.

    TERRIBLE LACK OF ATTENTION TO DETAILS.. Their idea of detail is putting the seat belt anchor onto the driver and passenger seats (yeah, real cute GM : :sick: )

    Terrible weight balancing. ( I know, bcause I just recently rented a Chevrolet Impala which besides having terrible weight balancing, sounded like it had a roaring lion in the trunk (exhaust system) RIDICULOUS.

    Thirsty engines compared to the competition

    No innovation or innovation that doesn't keep up with the competition, it just copies it

    And what do you have to say about the other blogger on here that claims unless you buy a Cadillac don't spend your money on GM. Their mid grade stuff isn't worth anyone's money. He's right on the mark.

    Standard of the World is the biggest joke. Cadillac doesn't know the first thing about making a world class automobile.

    Companies that make world class automobiles can COMPETE effectively. GM hasn't been able to do that in the U.S.A. market for DECADES.. Quite frankly, I don't really think they care about winning over the U.S.A. market anymore. The U.S.A. market is merely their test track.

    It really is sad, because they produce beautiful stuff in other countries. I've seen it and touched it with my own two eyes and hands
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It is no big deal that you keep bashing GM for a poor GM car you bought in 1985. I feel the same about the crap that Toyota builds. However you should get your facts straight. I am no fan of FFV or E85 but the whole Midwest is covered with them. Not just Michigan. In fact Michigan has less E85 stations than most of the Midwestern states.

    http://www.e85refueling.com/

    You also mention rental cars as your basis for grading. I rented a 2005 Camry in Victoria BC. It was OK but no better than the Malibu I got a couple months before in Hawaii. The Malibu had more usable trunk space and felt roomier in the front. Both got decent mileage. Neither one handled or would keep up with the Passat diesel I owned at that time.

    If resale is such a big issue buy a used vehicle and bypass the loss. If you think you can trade a Honda after a year and get a good price you are not very realistic.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Thanks for the E85 link. did not realize there were so many near us. Unfortunately none are at the stations 3 miles from us but a whole bunch within 15 miles. What is the price/gallon now?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think with the high price of gas this Spring, E85 is a good deal for some people with FFVs from GM & Ford. I would say it is boost for sales of larger vehicles.

    http://e85prices.com/
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    WOW, only $2.83 down the road here (about 40 cents cheaper). Too bad my Envoy is not compatible. And my wifes soon to be here Acadia is not either.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Many of their cars still have TERRIBLE FIT AND FINISH

    You obviously haven't seen my '04 Ranier or '04 K3500

    TERRIBLE RESALE VALUE

    That is a fallacy that compares original MSRP to values 3-5 years later. The fact of the matter is that most Japanese cars sell at or near MSRP (with good reason), while most GM products sell at or below DEALER INVOICE (again, because of perception, with good reason). If you compare 5 yr old prices vs. what was actually paid, resale becomes MUCH closer.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Actually, synthetic jet fuel made out of coal is under going tests. Diesel can be made out of coal, but I see no reason why gasoline cannot also be made.

    My 78 Olds diesel ran OK for the time period that I owned it. The turbohydramatic 200 transmission was in the process of falling apart about the time that I traded it in. I think some of the weight saving schemes that GM used in the late 70's into the mid-80's were not good engineering.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Resale values depend on how many recent models are on the used car market. With GM a rental company supplier, GM rental models flood the used car market, driving prices down.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Most hondas and toyotas go for right around invoice. Only the limited production models or niche models go for MSRP.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Jet fuel is number 1 diesel or kerosene. I would imagine they can make gas from coal. Most of the talk is just for diesel from coal. The big new fuel is diesel from Natural Gas. Qatar with the largest known gas reserves is in the process of converting NG to very high grade ULSD. Easy to transport by ship also. When that comes on line we should have a great supply of very clean diesel in this country. Just in time for all the new diesel vehicles.

    Now if Caddy brings that dandy V6 diesel they will be in good shape. Ready to compete with MB & BMW.
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    Gagrice-

    Had you been paying attention to my previous post I stated E85 was available in Michigan only with a question mark at the end of the sentence. That would have made it apparent to anyone, that it wasn't a statement of fact. However I did know that E85 is of limited availability. It's available in the MidWest only
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    Yeah, and they sounded just like Peterbilt or Kenworth trucks :\
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    There is a nasty problem with E85, though. You get 30-40% worse MPG than gasoline.

    So if the fuel is only 15-20% less, you're actually spending more per month on fuel - which increases the profits. There's a a reason Bush and the rest of Congress is all for E85 - it increases profits.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    There is a nasty problem with E85, though. You get 30-40% worse MPG than gasoline.

    A bit off. More like 25%.

    EPA fuel-economy estimates for flex-fuel models reveal that E85 reduces gas mileage by 21 to 31 percent during city driving and 20 to 34 percent while on the highway.

    http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center-article_104/

    Just one year ago E85 cost a bit more than gas. Now that it is cheaper and seems to be getting cheaper in the long run it has a pretty good chance of becoming a viable fuel source.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    if you look at the NEW E85 ratings on the EPA site for 2008 models,(and the re-tested 2007s), E85 causes a massive decrease. Considering that it has between 27-30% less btus worth of energy to burn than normal gasoline, depending upon the formulation/whether it is oxygenated E85 or not, it's way more than 25%.

    Also, most of the E85 vehicles to date are big trucks and things like the Crown Vic. They suffer even more because most drivers whomp on the gas harder to compensate for the noticeably poorer HP and torque. So you get a small compounding effect in real driving unless you drive like a grandmother.

    2007 GMC Sierra Classic(1500) 2wd
    Gas: 14/19
    E85: 11/14
    21% less city, 25% less highway

    2008 Grand Marquis
    Gas: 15/23(18 avg)
    E85: 11/16(13avg)
    27% less city, 30% less highway.

    It's an enormous effect for most vehicles. Basically your highway mileage goes down to what your city is and your city drops into the near single digits.

    The EPA is factoring E85 as $2.10 a gallon, which is horribly unrealistic. $2.75 is closer to reality.

    http://e85prices.com/
    If you are in a green state/area, you are essentially paying nearly gasoline prices. Which means more cost to drive per year. (though it does pollute less and is much more renewable).

    The environuts love E85 as it pollutes less. The megacorps love it because it makes them more money. And our politicians are all for it as it makes them look good either way.

    Too bad it's coming out of my pocket.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm

    I went to the epa website and it list only nine 2008's so far but they most all have about a 25% decrease in fuel economy over the gas version. For some reason the worse case is 30% (old Crown Vic and Grand Marquis) and that is the one you picked as your example! What a coincidence!! The others seem to be almost exactly 25/26%. BUT we will have to see how others change as they get added. I am really interested in the Impala sized vehicles.

    The only regular sized/volume car they list is the Avenger and it is about a 25% decrease so I would look for the same on all mid and smaller vehicles. Surely no "massive" decrease.

    Yes, at this time E85 is not a better deal cost wize but give it a couple years it will become more cost effective.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    Not that I'm for E85, but I just want to note that hybrids aren't that much of a deal either, but people are still flocking to the Prius...
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    "Many of their cars still have TERRIBLE FIT AND FINISH."

    Which ones are those? The finish is comparable with most others. Maybe you are still thinking about 10-15 years-ago?

    "All one has to do is look at GM's history or compare any of their cars today to the competition and we can see the type of crap they've passed onto us:"

    Yes, but it was no different than comparable domestic vehicles at that time. Yes, most did have poor fit and finish at real close inspection, but those cars held up pretty well and I still see them on the road.

    "Terrible weight balancing. ( I know, bcause I just recently rented a Chevrolet Impala which besides having terrible weight balancing, sounded like it had a roaring lion in the trunk (exhaust system) RIDICULOUS."

    Weight balancing. The Impala is a big car and in general weight balancing is really only an issue with a sports car. The Impala and like cars are no different from each other as far as balancing. For any large car weight balancing is probably the lowest priority. I have read quite a few reviews on cars of this size including the Impala and weight balancing after driving never came up.

    "Thirsty engines compared to the competition."

    GM as a whole has pretty good mileage compared to the competition. I don't have the figures but I did see an article last year that showed GM vehicles over-all to be vary competitive in mileage, especially their trucks. They also had the best mileage for a domestic brand. If you have any information on mileage versus the competition I would be curious to read it.

    "FlexFuel. Where is FlexFuel available? In Michigan, and that's the only state it's available?"

    As mentioned there are many places in the midwest where one can get this corn based fuel. There are several manufactures that offer these corn burners with Ford being a big one as well. I personally don't find this type of flex fuel very good other than helping the environment. The fuel is better for performance but even though it is less money, the fuel mileage is not quite as good so in reality it somewhat evens out, if that. I like the idea of the fuel for environmental reseasons but it has ended up costing the rest of us a lot of money in our food bills because of the high corn prices and the products made with corn. Have you priced a cob of corn recently? One used to be able to get one for about 10 cents each, now I have seen them for 50 cents. The farm animals eat the corn as well making a big shortage.

    "Why not go with a tried and true technology--HYBRID. But oh, they can't."

    They are developing the hydrogen fuel cell right now with BMW and Chrysler. Both the Chevy Volt and BMW 7 series have a model being tested right now. According to recent reports Chevy will have the Volt on the market no later than 2012, maybe before. The hybrids on the market are not true hybrids because they still have a gas engine.

    "No innovation or innovation that doesn't keep up with the competition, it just copies it."

    What things have they been copying? GM is known as an innovator and has developed many things that others are now using such as: night vision, stability control, traction control,daytime running lights, remote starting, anti-lock brakes, radio control on the steering wheel, to name a few. They had air bags available in the early 1970's, but there was little interest so it was dropped. GM was also one of the first to offer satellite navigation, satelite radio, mp3 radio plug-ins, auto dimming rearview mirrors, side heated mirrors, tire air monitoring warning, child safety locks in the rear doors, inside child safety trunk releases, rust proofing from the factory on all models, among other offerings.
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    The main reason for the lower resale value is the money thats put on the hood. $2,000 off the price when new is $2,000 less at trade in. The other killer is the rental fleets who get it for under dealer cost. These cars flood the market and thus lower the price. GM now gives the lowest vehicle incentives overall of all domestic auto makers with Chrysler shelling out the most.
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    "Yeah, and they sounded just like Peterbilt or Kenworth trucks :\"

    You are really pushing the bs today media. I knew of at least four people who had the ill fated gas engine turned diesel. They didn't sound anything close to a semi-tractor diesel. They were pretty much the same loudness as any other diesel based car at that time, and some actually lasted a real long time.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,146
    Don't feed the trolls.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    62vetteefp-

    I fail to see how Hybrids aren't all that as you claim. Combined street/hwy driving is 55mph. Can you imagine what stellar mpg you'd get with all freeway driving??
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    Ok Poncho167, I can't beat that rebuttal. That was pretty good. I guess I just don't like BIG cars. GM may have nothing to do with it.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    Combined street/hwy driving is 55mph. Can you imagine what stellar mpg you'd get with all freeway driving??

    I'm too lazy to find a source, but I think hybrids' hwy mileage is typically less than city since in city the gas engine has more opportunity to shut down, and you gain from regenerative braking.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    The hybrids on the market are not true hybrids because they still have a gas engine.

    I thought it's exactly because a car has a gas engine that it is a hybrid.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    I'm not sure if that was indeed directed at me or 62', but my point is that when you buy a hybrid, the premium you pay for the technology is not always offset by fuel savings. Therefore, I think it possible that people are flocking to them not to save money but for the image of being 'green'. Either that or because they believe all the hype about hybrids. If it is true that consumers put a premium on image, then there may be hope for a less efficient fuel, E85, because it has the allure of being 'yellow', even if you don't save any money.
  • trimastertrimaster Member Posts: 163
    I see this thread's still going strong...

    I see quite a few Caddy's of all years & models on the road. But then again, I may be noticing them more because I started looking at this thread... ;)

    I still don't see them as becoming standard of the world any time soon. I think their goal is to focus on the mid-luxury segment, not the high end. When they step up to the high end plate then MAYBE they can be cosnidered. But even then it'll take time because some of the others (Merc, Bimmer, Audi & Lexus) have a head start in that area.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    62vetteefp-

    I fail to see how Hybrids aren't all that as you claim. Combined street/hwy driving is 55mph. Can you imagine what stellar mpg you'd get with all freeway driving??

    Not that I'm for E85, but I just want to note that hybrids aren't that much of a deal either, but people are still flocking to the Prius...

    I did not write the above. wrong commenter. BUT Hybrids are a way of getting better efficiency out of an engine/vehicle. All motors are not 100% efficient and gas engines are very inefficient. Energy loss to heat, inefficient power/fuel usage, etc. Also energy is lost to to vehicle items like air drag, tire resistance, braking. All gas/battery hybrids do is capture some of that lost energy.

    But this takes more stuff to get it. Batteries are heavy, take up space, etc. braing regen systems are costly and add weight. I have nothing against hybrids but make sure the cost benefit is really there. Now that there are rebates on the Prius and gas is over $3.50/gallon, whoops it is under $3.25 again, then it may be a cost effective way of saving money. It is also a way of reducing emmisions so we can take that into account.

    Prius is the only hybrid that really sells in volume. Honda just cancelled their Accord hybrid(probably did not sell because it was on a V6 and those who care about their gas mileage enough to pay for it want a very high MPG vehicle and therfore a 4). A lot of Prius sales are to those who can afford to and want to appear green.

    And actually hybrids do very little for highway, at least not the system Toyota uses. They are only useful where there is a lot of braking to charge the battery. If all highway not a lot of savings.

    If you look at a vehicle like the Honda hythat is not totally compromised for fuel efficiency the delta is not that much. For $31,000 you get 28/35 which is an improvement over the 20/29 but from the publics viewpoint not worth buying.
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    "The hybrids on the market are not true hybrids because they still have a gas engine."

    My understanding from reading several other sources that true hybrids do not have gas engines. The more that I think about it I am not really sure what is a true hybrid.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I know someone (actually I know 3 people) with a Prius, and while it is rated 50 highway, 60 city, they only got 40 over the winter, and were getting more like 45 otherwise. It may do better this summer...

    But the combined 55 MPG rating is probably about 10 MPGs over what one should expect.
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