Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
I've heard the same about Sigma (and even that the CTS will shift to a premium sigma, albeit shorter than a Cadillac S-class/7-series) and also agree about a premium Zeta. At this point, though, I feel like regardless of the financials, GM should just make this car. For me it's kind of like the Volt: the money lost on each unit sold is at least partially reimbursed by the image it lends to the rest of the brand. IMO, the 3-series is successful, in part, because it allows people of more reasonable means to be associated with the likes of the 7-series. With no full-size uber lux sedan to sit atop Cadillac, what would entice buyers into the brand? Obviously, the CTS sells well, but I just feel like having a large sedan with more exclusivity will do wonders for the brand and even help bolster CTS and future BTS(?) sales.
Wow. So I'm not the only one...
Infiniti??? How do U figure that? It certainly isn't the G37. It lost a recent head to head comparo with the BMW 335i.
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=121462/pageNumber=5
I really doubt that GM would start a new architecture just for a large, premium Cadillac. Now they would revise/combine ones they have and are doing that.
At one point, it was discussed why, with all of our relatively large open spaces between cities, the US doesn't have a high speed Autobahn style system? The answer, quite simply, was that our automobiles were far inferior to safely handling high speeds than German cars. The narrator made specific mention of Cadillac as NEVER having the high speed handling, safety or other engineering features of everything from Mercedes, BMW, Audi and even VW. The original VW Beetle, produced in the 1040's was a more stable and capable car at Autobahn speeds than any American made car of its time.
So, when you are cruising 300 miles on the highway and unhappy that it takes you 5-6 hours instead of 2 1/2, send your thank you note to GM/Cadillac.
How about all the other cars that were driven in Deutschland? Were all the cars Mercedes? BMWs? What did ordinary folk drive? How were they for traveling long distances on varying highways and city streets as we had in the US in the 60s and 70s?
I think we all know the answer to that. The US car was suitable for driving all those highways. Ever take a trip in a VW beetle in the 60s and 70s? Drive from Indiana to Florida in the 60s?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And that's the kind of "follow rather than lead" engineering that has GM teetering on the brink of bankruptcy today. According to the History Channel program, the autobahn designers and German automotive engineerers went hand in hand to push the envelope in the 1930's. Nobody was sitting on the sideline saying "you go first".
Sorry, I cannot be an apologist for the dismal performance of the US Auto industry. GE may make world class locomotives and wind turbines, Boeing may make world class airplanes, Caterpiller and Deere may make world class heavy equipment. All by the way, with union labor. But GM isn't even close, IMO, and I'd like someone to explain the title to this forum. Just what do you define as the "world standard" in automotive engineering and when, ever, was Cadillac anywhere near that podium? At least in the last 50 years?
P.S. The orignial VW Beetle sold for $300 in the 1940's. As boxy as it looks today, it has a Cd that is 20% lower than the 2007 Pontiac Solstice, a so-called "sports car". Frankly, GM engineers haven't just sat on the sidelines, they have had their heads up their butts on more than a few occassions in the last half century or so.
Our country is set up differently than Europe. They started with congested cities with tiny streets and sharp corners. Their cars had to be small and nimble just to get around, even in hte middle of major cities. No choice. Here we have always had wide 2 lane roads and pretty much 4 lanes with huge corners so large vehicles could be made and were desired by the consumers. That all changed starting in the 70's of course with the fuel issues but even today consumers buy the big SUV's.
:confuse: No we didn't.
As for the autobahns, they are maintained to a vastly higher standard than anything on this continent, and so are the drivers.
Our road system has been developed well other than going through some cities where they should have gone around the city.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The biggest difference however is driver competency. Lane discipline.
No we didn't.
I guess you are referring to my "have alway" statement. I guess if you look at the old, old towns like Boston, yes they have tight roadways in the city. However look pretty much anyplace but the older eastern cities, you have wide roads big enough to easily get around in large vehicles. Any cities modernized or built up in the later 19th century are that way. Chicago, LA, Detroit, Cincinnati, Phoenix, etc. Come to think of it there are some cities on the West coast that can be tight like San Francisco.
My point is that Europe in the early 20th century was/is full of old tight roads in thier cities.
Any? Don't think so. One car that I have heard about from an old relative who owned one was a very limitted production Cord (1937). It was very stable at speed. Also, it was a FWD.
Didn't the original 40's beetle have swing axles in rear that made the car highly unstable? Think that there were some decent American road cars in 40's such as Hudson, Lincoln, Cadillac. Didn't these brands, in relatively stock form, do well in the Mexican road races of the 40's and 50's? Did Mercedes compete in the Mexican road races?
I would not want any interstate converted into autobahn type speed limits. Have never been to Germany, but have read many accounts of drivers (left lane and right) and their experience in handling great speed differentials. There have been spectacular accidents/crashes on the autobahn. It is bad enough already in U.S. if one is driving along in right lane at say 70 and sees someone coming up fast in left lane going perhaps 95. Just a 25 differential is undesirable for safety let alone someone on the autobahn doing 150 in left and passing someone doing 70.
I have spent an average of 4-8 weeks per year in Germany for the past 25+ years and have driven the autobahn in everything from a rental Audi A3 to a Porsche 911 GT2.
The design differences may seem subtle to some, but are very significant. The road does NOT go in a straight line for mile after monotonous mile. It is contoured to the land with slightly banked curves. The road surface itself is much smoother than US interstates, and constructed with a much thicker foundation, base and surface (i.e. meaning it holds up much better). Every time I return from an extended stay in Germany, I find myself checking my tires to make sure I don't have a flat - that's how much more vibration and road noise there is on the Interstates in my area (Pittsburgh).
The Autobahn is to the Interstate system what a BMW 5 series is to a Buick Century. Yes, you can go 120 mph on each and in each, but the 5-series on the Autobahn at 120 is completely comfortable to an experienced driver. The same speed in a Buick on an American Interstate is something that Evil Knievel might not have found comfortable.
OOPS I meant to say premium zeta. To clarify, the plan that I believe is most accurate is that sigma will die because its too low volume and not flexible enough (which is another reason I don't think there will be an exclusive platform for the super-Caddy). The Zeta in the CTS would be a premium version of the G8/Commodore whereas the one in the super-Caddy would be a premium version of the statesman's architecture. Here's the only link I had saved:
Soon after, expect the CTS family to get redesigned and migrate to a version of the Zeta platform sometime in 2012 as 2013 models. When this migration to Zeta happens, Sigma will essentially be dead come 2012, as GM will reduce the number of mid/large passenger car platforms down to the highly flexible Zeta platform, with Alpha taking up the mid/small range (no word on Kappa -- if it will elvove into Kappa II or use a smaller variant of Alpha).
gminsidenews
GM's car platforms are being whittled away.
Alpha
Zeta
Epsilon
Gamma
Y
As far as habitat, attacking Cadillac, lets just say my former 2002 Cadillac Seville STS with Magneride at 155 mph (elec. limited) felt very comfortable and solid on a Texas, Farm & Market Road about 4 summers ago and I did that more than once.
-Rocky
I see the logic, but then again, I don't see it. So who's their direct competition? Do they have direct competition? Will the car perform well enough to woo BMW drivers away? I'm so confused! :sick:
I don't think it's entirely right to say that BMW and MB owners won't switch to Caddy. I am pretty sure there are still open minded German owners who know s good product when they see one (oh shut up, I am not saying that most German owners are close minded bas***ds ).
However, I'll admit that it'll probably be harder for the loyal German owners to switch since they have been under German kool-aid poisoning for a long time.
LOL Y does it have to be Poison Kool Aid? lol U gotta give credit where credit's due! If Caddy wants to woo german enthusiasts, they will have to produce a FANTASTIC car. Lexus did it, so maybe Caddy can do it also. Criticizing the german car drivers won't do it. Build a better car and they MIGHT follow.
Yes, Cadillac may be more reliable, yes it is certainly cheaper.
But, you have ALOT to learn about what motivates,or de-motiavtes car buyers.
Esp luxury ones.
Lux cars are bough primarily on image and cachet.
Cadillac's image is well below the Germans. It just is.
Let's not forget the driving experience itself. Some may think luxury cars are all about image, but many of them are a BLAST to drive in some shape, fashion or form. Other models just can't replicate that driving experience in many cases.
OK. I'm confused again. Is the CTS going up against the 3 series, the 5 series, the C Class or E Class? Is it in it's own niche? or is it going against everybody?
1 poster said it'd be a better comparo against the E class. The E class has a better interior than the C.
Another poster said it has it's on niche. It's in between the 3 and 5: bigger than the 3, but smaller and cheaper than the 5.
U guys are killin me...lol
OK. I'm even more confused. On this website, the comparo is against the E- Class and 5 series. Yet Caddy markets the car against the 3? Y market a car the size of a 5-series against a 3-series???
So it handles like a smaller car then? If not, that makes NO SENSE.
I believe "The Standard of the World" claim will be cemented once again by Cadillac around 2013' We should by then know how the line-up will look or close to it as all the good stuff will have came out. They need to build the ULS, Cien, STS/DTS replacement, along with the CTC and CTS wagon and Cadillac, will be crowned King of Automobiles, a title I would say Lexus, probably owns. However Cadillac, is inching closer and closer to Lexus, and the CTS, is just one example of more great things to come.
Time will tell! If it's possible I think it'll take much longer than that.
Infiniti maybe? But Lexus has never said they were better in the performance category than BMW, especially the M series. Lexus has traditionally not been after that market. May change with their performance series but I do not believe they have thrown down the gauntlet like Lutz did.
I remember seeing threads on the luxury lounge where there was talk of the GS being the BMW "5-series killer." The talk may or not been in terms of prformance, but they were definetly talking about in terms of sales.
I agree that Cadillac is "inching" closer to Lexus. Unfortunately, they are about a half mile away and by the time 2013 comes around, Lexus (and BMW, Acura, etc. etc.) will be that much further ahead.
Your perenial optimism of always looking to the future and overlooking the dismal performance of GM in the here and now is resiliant, if nothing else. But I don't think it's particularly healthy, if you really do care about GM.
IMO, if the US auto industry is going to ever become qualified to even compete for a "world standard" title, the management, UAW and everybody that is an apologist for what the current state of affairs is needs to be sent to Siberia. The industry is way beyond an incremental, let's wait until 2013, fix. They are like weekend hackers trying to compete with Tiger Woods - and he's still getting better, himself. The US companies need a serious makeover, not a new sleeve of balls. And they need it NOW.
I have several friends and associates that have test driven the new CTS as their various other cars (Audi, Acura, MB, BMW, Infiniti, Lexus to name a few) have come off lease in the last 3-4 months. So far, no takers. Those that are comparing it to a 5 series - are you nuts?? The car has less rear seat width and shoulder room than a 3-series. It is not a family friendly car and for those that are looking for a more sporty drive, it is an overweight, uninspired offering compared to a 328i/335i.
I'd honestly like to see a shake up at GM and a seriously competitive offering to come out that would cause me to consider an American car the next time around. But between Mattel Toy chrome crazed styling and driving dynamics that are always playing catch up, I am not holding my breath. But, in deference to your resiliance, Rocky, I will give the best GM can serve up a test drive.
As far as handling goes, Road and Track says that the new CTS does not handle like a 5-series. I think that being a bigger car its handling is not quite as good as the 3-series, which is the standard for sport sedans. The 3-series handling is better than the 5-series, which is why the 3-series is one of Car&Drivers 10 best, while the 5-series does not make the list (3-series has been on the list for the last 5 years, 5-series has not).
Cadillac is very serious and they have been for the last 5 years or so. The CTS-V will continue to show they are serious about performance and design. The STS doesnt get a lot of credit but its handling, features and standard power make it a bargain compared to the 530 or E350. The E class starts at $50k compared ot $42k for the STS which is just as capable and more powerful and has standard features like push button start.
If you are talking about sports sedans most German car owners do not respect Lexus. I would say at this point Cadillac has more credibility as a sports sedan maker than LExus. Lexus is just launching the ISF three years after Caddy launched the V series and no lexus will ever be available with a manual transmission. The base IS and GS have been roundly criticized as lacking in the sporting department. The current CTS, and to a lesser extent the old one, has been praised as a legit sports sedan, not just a RWD luxury car. LExus refuses to compromise when it comes to making Japanese Buicks and thus they wont go that extra mile to make a real sports sedan. The ISF might be the first example of a Lexus that gives up a little luxury in the name of sport. Actually the first IS was an example as well but it was a flop.
the CTS is a better car than the A4 and C class right now. The 3 is sportier but not necessarily a better all around car. There is no objective reason to by a competing Audi or MB over the CTS.
Gm's vehicles are more competitive than ever. I'm not sure where they are playing catch up. The CTS plays 2nd fiddle to no car in this class. Its interior is superior to the C class and A4. Its also superior in terms of engines. The only area where Caddy was behind was in interiors and that is over now as evidenced by the SRX and CTS interiors. No need to wait until 2013 for Caddy to "catch up", they are already there. In fact from a performance standpoint they are ahead of Acura, Infiniti and Lexus. The V series cars put them on a level those brands havent reached yet in terms of credibility.
If you are talking about sports sedans most German car owners do not respect Lexus.
Oh no. I wasn't talking about the sports cars. i was referring to the LS and how it has fared against the S and 7. The IS hasn't done well and the GS is worse. The ES is, well, I don't know WHAT the ES is, but it sells. It's not compared to any Bimmer or Benz IM...
the CTS is a better car than the A4 and C class right now. The 3 is sportier but not necessarily a better all around car. There is no objective reason to by a competing Audi or MB over the CTS.
Objective reason?
I do want you to give the CTS-V a try habitat1 :shades:
-Rocky
The writer, Jeff Sabatini said that CTS is now a legitimate competitor to any sub $50K sedan on the market. Other items in the article:
“Inside, the improvements are more revolutionary, starting with a wholesale upgrade of the materials and design. The crowning achievement is an elegant implementation of the navigation-system display .If anything can cause the German auto makers to feel shame for their maladroit efforts at integrating navigation screens, the CTS can. Cadillac has clearly set the industry standard.”
“Staking a place amid the crowded field of rear-wheel drive luxury sedans with sporting pretensions is a tricky business, but Cadillac has positioned the new CTS almost perfectly to maximize its marketability. Like the old CTS, the new one is roughly the size of the BMW 5-Series but priced closer to the smaller BMW 3-Series. It’s flashier than a Mercedes C-Class, more fun to drive than any Lexus and more comfortable than either BMW.”
“ .what really impresses about the CTS is that it captures GM doing two things for which it historically has shown little capacity. The first is continuing to improve a product over successive generations; the second is paying attention to details. Both practices will be far more important to the company’s long-term success than the fleeting acclaim of this single model.”
As far as the CTS's handling goes, Road and Track does not think it is nearly in the 5-series class. Both the 3-series and 5-series can do 0.9 G's on a skidpad.
CTS has more space and a superior interior to C or A4 and has more power than both. I cant think of one good reason to buy a C or A4 over the 2008 CTS. Not to mention it looks better and has more space. Can you think of any good reasons not to get the CTS? I find the C class interior to be very bland and too plasticky for my tastes. The CTS is much warmer and has details such as a stitched dashboard that you wont find on the C class.
I havent read any review that stated the CTS isnt close to the 3 or 5 in handling. The CTS pulled .89gs in Motor Trend which is very close to .9gs. R&T compared the CTS to G35 and had very little negative to say about the CTS even though it came in 2nd. The CTS' handling is world class, it posted a higher lane change speed than the 328i in the recent C&D comparo. That is very impressive when you consider the CTS weighs about 500lbs more than the BMW.
In real world driving this is all moot anyway so it doesnt matter that the 3 series can pull .02gs more than the CTS. The buyers wont know and if it wasnt for precise testing the auto reviewers woudlnt even know. On top of that the CTS has outbraked its competition in every comparo I have seen. Apparently you can beat BMW in some things.