People are going to have different opinions about vehicles and manufacturers, and are going to express them in discussions like this. If you don't agree with something that someone has posted, you might try to persuede them to change their mind or try to make them see things your way. But once it become obvious (and that's usually pretty apparent right away) that they have their opinions and you have yours, it's time to let it go and avoid the trap of starting to talk about each other.
I don't understand anyone having a PERSONAL beef with any auto maker. Like I said, if a person doesn't like a particular brand, don't buy it. Nothing makes a stronger point. However, when someone doesn't like a brand, then goes into a forum and exaggerates their claims to make their case, I have a problem with that person.
You're prechin' to the chior. My Dad worked for GM and my Mom still draws his pension benefits, but this is only a small reason why I'd like to see GM (and all of the big 3 for that matter) turn things around. Our auto industry is a symbol of America's manufacturing might, and all the problems they've been having gives our country a black eye and is also a sign of weakness. There's nothing I'd like to see more than for them turn things around and start kicking butt again. But it isn't going to happen until the big 3 wake up and start building quality vehicles. They CAN build quality vehicles, it's just a matter of them getting it done. Their survival and our nation's reputation is at stake.
Post a REAL problem with a toyota and the koolaid drinkers come of the woodwork and attack ! Also note the action today (23 new posts) on the camry thread............
Most of them are also ATTACK posts towards the poor owner of the lemon buyback camry by the toyota faithful.
Back up another 20 posts over there. Didn't see the attack posts about the license plates huh? Or the car problems were in his imagination ?
What they forget to remember is the plates (in that state) stayed with the car when sold.............
All because the poor sap had a LEMON 07 camry that was bought back and the yota faithful went crazy because he had the NERVE to post a negative FACT on these forums !
That's my point. How many posts were made because of a stupid license plate. Those posts were not due to a problem with the car. There were some posts that were somewhat aggressive... but the fact that the dealer screwed up, and led to those posts... The OP who made that post complained about throttle hesitation... a legitimate concern which led to the buy back, (which was addressed by a TSB), and most that followed was about the stupid license plate.
I don't think anyone is claiming Toyota, nonetheless ANY car maker is perfect.
I could post all the REAL problems the big 3 have had, and continue to have, but this forum doesn't have the capacity to hold them all, so what's your point?
I think Geo is secretly thinking about buying a Toyota and is trying to talk himself out of it.
Camry sells 450 thousand a year. I'd say 23 posts in a "Problems" board is not something to base an anti-Toyota propoganda on. It just sounds silly and baseless.
If you are concerned about Toyotas glitches, maybe you should write to them about what they can do about it. People just buy the cars, they don't design them. I'm sure the feedback from owners and potential owners such as yourself will be taken in to account and improvments will be made. Remember, Toyota is swimming money, these glitches are and will continue to be taken seriously, as they have the means to do so.
Hang in there man, they're gonna be fine. Don't worry too much.
I hadn't checked this topic in a while since my 2005 Tacoma post, but just a lot of back and forth from two sides.
Honestly, I think Toyota has slipped a little versus what it used to be, and that the competition has made great strides in the quality department.
Really I think, these days (with a few exceptions of course) most cars are about equal in the quality/durability area. Really I think it is starting to shift into Dealer service as the make or break for vehicle satisfaction. If they can resolve problems quickly, then you'll have a happy customer.
Poor dealer service certainly sped up the dumping of my Tacoma.
Toyota Agrees to Sludge Settlement for Consumers Class Action Suit Brings Relief to 3.5 Million Toyota, Lexus Owners By Joe Benton ConsumerAffairs.Com January 8, 2007 Consumers saddled with sludge-clogged Toyota engines may soon get some help from the Japanese auto giant under the terms of a class-action lawsuit settlement that covers roughly 3.5 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles damaged by engine oil sludge. An engine gummed up with oil sludge can cost thousands of dollars to repair and in many cases must be replaced. The class action settlement could potentially cost the automaker hundreds of millions of dollars. The agreement will allow consumers whose claims have been denied by Toyota to submit those claims to a third-party mediator at no cost for binding arbitration. The lawsuit, filed in a Louisiana district court, could receive final approval by the middle of February. Details of the settlement are being mailed to 7.5 million current and previous Toyota and Lexus owners. The agreement provides owners of sludge-damaged Toyotas eight years plus 120 days from the original purchase date to file a complaint. Toyota consumers who have repaired their sludge-damaged engines may be able to recover their costs. The car only needs to show evidence of oil sludge damage. The terms of the settlement are transferable to future vehicle owners. Toyota owners have repeatedly written ConsumerAffairs.Com detailing Toyota's attempts to blame sludge problems on inadequate vehicle maintenance by the owner. Charles in Arkansas said: "At 36,000 miles the engine gummed up and quit running. My wife had the oil changed at Wal-Mart and did not keep receipts for the oil changes. The North Little Rock dealer and the Toyota representative told us such problems were rare and that we had caused the problem but for $2,500 they could fix it. They inferred that my wife was a liar," he wrote. With the new agreement, consumers need only show reasonable maintenance in terms of oil changes. Toyotas covered by the Louisiana settlement include the: • Camry 4 cylinder from 1997-2001, • Camry 6 cylinder from 1997-2002, • Camry Solara 4 cylinder from 1999-2001, • Camry Solara 6 cylinder 1999-2002, • Sienna 6 cylinder from 1998-2002, • Avalon 6 cylinder from 1997-2002, • Celica 4 cylinder from 1997-1999, • Highlander 6 cylinder from 2001-2002, • Lexus ES 300 from 1997-2002 and • Lexus RX 300 from 1999-2002. In 2002 Toyota admitted receiving 3,400 complaints about sludged engines and the automaker extended its vehicle warranty to eight years along with unlimited mileage to owners of 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles equipped with 3.0-liter V-6 or 2.2-liter four-cylinder engines. At Toyota dealerships, however, consumers have encountered repeated denials from service managers insisting that sludging occurs primarily when owners fail to change their oil frequently enough. Lauren wrote ConsumerAffairs.Com from Tampa, Florida that, "My check engine light came on once again so I immediately returned to Stadium Toyota. The next day, I received a call from Stadium Toyota telling me that my engine is damaged due to engine sludge and it will cost me $4,500 to fix it." In Lawrenceville, Georgia Valerie ran into a hostile dealer despite Toyota confirming her vehicle was "part of their oil gelling/sludge program. The service dept at the dealership says that I'm not entitled to anything," she wrote. In Apex, North Carolina Jan heard the bad news from her Toyota dealer. "They checked it over, then called and said that the engine had sludge in it and it needed a $7,000 to $8,000 repair," she wrote. "They also said it was my fault, because the oil had obviously not been changed properly. When I purchased the car, the Toyota dealer talked me into a $999 extended warranty plan, which he assured me would cover any major issues that might come up with a car. It is called their Tender Loving Care package." Edward from Parma, Ohio received the Toyota brush-off despite promises of an extended warranty. "I called the dealer and was basically told by their customer service manager that they refused to do anything and did not care if I chose to file a lawsuit or anything else, Edward told ConsumerAffairs.Com. Lois from Cedar Rapids is still steaming over her treatment despite promises of an extended warranty. "We received a letter from Toyota that indicated the engine was covered for a period of 8 years for engine sludge. In February of 2006, at 144,000 miles, the engine started making a loud noise. We were told that our car had 'blown a rod' and needed a new engine. We asked about the previous problem but were told that this was not related to the sludge problem and the car was not covered by Toyota." The Toyota agreement the court is examining contains no finding of fault by Toyota or its dealers and does not prove Toyota or Lexus vehicles are predisposed to develop oil gel.
About a week ago Toyota recalled over 500,000 vehicles in the U.S. Now, they've lost a class action suit involving over 3.5 MILLION vehicles just in the U.S. Coupled with their legal troubles in Japan for covering up quality problems, I'd say that it's time for their reputation to reflect reality. Oh yes, I almost forgot to mention their top U.S. exec who had to flee back to Japan because of sexual harrassment. Here's the Wall Street Journal on their 3.5 MILLION vehicle problem involving not just Toyota but also Lexus:
Toyota Agrees to Sludge Pact The Wall Street Journal
By Jonathan Welsh
Jan. 30, 2007
In an important legal precedent for car owners, Toyota Motor Corp.'s U.S. sales unit agreed to settle with thousands of consumers who say oil-sludge build-up ruined their car engines even though they followed maintenance guidelines.
Under the pending agreement between Toyota Motor Sales and motorists who are part of a class-action lawsuit, the Japanese car maker will compensate owners of sludge-damaged cars for engine-repair costs and related expenses from towing and storage charges to rental cars, attorney fees and "inconvenience, annoyance, anxiety and aggravation," according to the settlement agreement filed this month in Louisiana state court in Jefferson Parish. A judge is expected to approve the agreement in a Feb. 7 hearing.
The outcome sets a pattern under which similar cases against car companies could be pursued. Though Toyota's sludge problems have received a lot of attention, car makers including DaimlerChrysler AG, Volkswagen AG and General Motors Corp.'s Saab also have received a large number of complaints from customers about sludge-related damage.
While car makers' standard defense has long been that sludge is the result of neglect by the owner, the Toyota case seems to make clear that many owners had sludge problems despite changing their oil at proper intervals and otherwise maintaining their cars according to car-company recommendations.
Engine sludge or oil gelling can occur as metal particles and other sediment collect in engine oil and cause it to thicken. Eventually it no longer can flow properly through an engine's network of tiny oil passages and parts of the engine fail after being starved for lubrication. In some cases an engine may seem to be operating properly before a sudden failure. Other times drivers will notice the car emitting bluish smoke from the tailpipe as the first symptom of a sludge problem.
Some of Toyota's critics, including a number of mechanics, have said certain oil passages were too small in the Toyota and Lexus engines that became known for sludge problems. One theory is that openings inside the engines that let oil to pass from the upper part of the engine to the lower parts - often called the bottom end - were easily clogged by even tiny amounts of sediment. As a result major components such as piston rings, crankshafts and connecting rods tend to fail, causing enough damage to require engine replacement. Such repairs can cost as much as $10,000, which can be close to a cars total value depending on age and model. Toyota still says the sludge didn't result from any engine-design problem.
A Toyota spokesman says the new agreement, under which the company will repair sludge-related damage for as much as eight years after the purchase of certain vehicles, is essentially the same as a customer-support program the company started in 2002. Toyota agrees to treat the repairs as if they are under warranty even if customers haven't strictly followed the company's oil-change guidelines, according to the spokesman.
The preliminary agreement focuses on two engines; a four-cylinder model called the 5S-FE and a six-cylinder known as 1MZ-FE. The engines were used in Toyota Camry models from 1997 to 2002, Solara models from 1999 to 2002, Sienna minivans from 1998 to 2002, Avalon sedans from 1997 to 2002, Celica coupes from 1997 to 1999, Highlander sport-utility vehicles from 2001 and 2002, Lexus ES 300 sedans from 1997 to 2002 and RX 300 SUVs from 1999 to 2002.
Lawyers for the plaintiffs said they have sent about 7.5 million notices of the class action to owners and former owners of vehicles included in the lawsuit. Vehicles covered by the settlement could total as many as 3.5 million. Gary Gambel, a partner in the New Orleans firm of Murphy, Rogers, Sloss & Gambel, says he won't know the size of the plaintiff class for awhile but says disgruntled Toyota and Lexus owners "have been coming out of the woodwork" as an agreement has drawn near.
The case began with Jeff Meckstroth, a New Orleans stockbroker, who purchased a Lexus RX 300 sport-utility vehicle in late 1998. After about two years and 42,468 miles, the Lexus's engine failed. He wound up winning an arbitration case under which Lexus replaced the engine in his vehicle.
"Really I think, these days (with a few exceptions of course) most cars are about equal in the quality/durability are."
I guess we are just going to have to disagree on this one. I have either driven or ridden in many fairly late model vehicles from serveral makes and I can tell you there is a big difference between the Civics and Corollas to Cavaliers and Neons. Even when the Cavaliers and Neons have had fewer miles on them (and in some cases, way fewer miles) than the Civics and Corollas had, they appeared to be the much higher mileage vehicles. They squeeked and rattled, interior panels were falling off, exterior panels were misaligned or coming loose and sometimes discolored, while the Civics and Corollas were still tight, quiet, nice looking, and nice driving cars. In some cases the gap between foreign and domestic has closed, in others it has widened.
I suppose they could go back to hiding their recalls. Hell it worked for 8 years and I'm sure their are enough clever people in HQ to get away with it again.
3 Toyota officials probed in alleged recall negligence
Related topics: Toyota Accidents & Injuries Criminal By: Yuri Kageyama , AP Business Writer on 07-11
Three Toyota officials are under a criminal investigation on suspicion of professional negligence for allegedly shirking recalls for eight years and not fixing a defect that may have caused an accident, police said Tuesday.
Toyota Motor Corp. denied the officials had engaged in any wrongdoing. The automaker said in a statement it was cooperating fully with the investigation.
Kumamoto police in southern Japan filed papers to prosecutors Tuesday, a police spokesman said. Accused are three Toyota officials, ages 62, 58 and 55, who oversee quality control at the automaker, he said.
Their names have not been disclosed. Toyota said at least one of the officials had left the company, although reasons for the departure were unclear.
Five people were injured on Aug. 12, 2004, in Kumamoto in a head-on crash when steering failed in a Toyota Hilux Surf sport utility vehicle, causing it to swing out of control into the wrong lane. One person in the other vehicle suffered injuries requiring 52 days of treatment, while four suffered more minor injuries, police said.
Toyota said a recall was carried out in October 2004 for 330,000 Hilux Surf vehicles manufactured between December 1988 and May 1996. The recall was for a problem part used in the steering system that could break, according to Toyota.
Toyota said the vehicle involved in the accident was manufactured in 1993.
Toyota had received five reports of problems with the steering by 1996, but the problems were limited to repeatedly turning the wheel during parking, and no recall was made then, it said. After additional problems were reported in 2004, Toyota carried our another investigation and decided to carry out a recall.
The model affected by the 2004 recall, totaling 1.2 million vehicles, was sold in 180 nations abroad including the U.S. and Europe, and a recall was carried out in September 2005, according to Toyota. Eighteen cases of problems were reported from overseas, but there were no accidents or injuries, it said.
A Toyota official, speaking on condition of anonymity, quoted police as saying that reports about problems began in 1992, and company officials are accused of being aware of them as early as 1995 or 1996.
The automaker, based in Toyota city, central Japan, said it will continue to make quality a priority.
"We will continue to strengthen quality control under our belief that we must put the customer first and make quality No. 1," Toyota said in the statement.
Toyota has been reporting booming sales in recent years and is growing so rapidly some analysts expect it to overtake struggling General Motors Corp. of the U.S. as the world's biggest automaker in coming years.
But Toyota, known worldwide for impeccable quality, has suffered somewhat of an image problem lately because its number of recalls has soared, raising doubts whether the automaker can continue to maintain quality standards as it embarks on the next step of global expansion.
Eh, I rent a ton of cars on lots of business travel, and to be honest with you, considering fit and finish, quality of materials and general "how's it holding together" My worst rentals are typically Toyota Corolla's and Ford Taurus'.
I had a Subaru Legacy Wagon (I know, odd rental) recently that wasn't put together that great. Interior reminded me of the Mazda 6, but the Mazda 6's I've had were put together much better. The Ford Fusion seemed well put together. The Mercury Montego I had was put together well, but seemed cheap inside for the price. The chevy Impala I had surprised me a bit as it was a little nicer inside then I expected and better screwed together. Ford Focus's that I've had have been pretty solid as well.
Really out of the mix I typically get, the Taurus and Corolla are usually the worst. I hate getting either. Crappy interiors and typically rattle like no one's business.
That all said, I don't really like to use rentals as an example as they are typically (sub) base models, abused heavily, and a small sample at that.
Jeez, so they weren't jailed (yet). The article explicitly says that they were CHARGED. But I guess since we're talking about Toyota and since everyone knows that Toyota can do no wrong, that we'll ignore it. But God help if an American manufacturer were to have people charged with a coverup, then we'd have to really raise hell, right? But let's give poor maligned Toyota a pass. :lemon:
After all, they need to get back to satisfying their 4 million U.S. customers with a recall or a sludge-based stall. Oops, sorry. I guess that doesn't fit your Weltanschaung of Toyota either.
The officials were jailed as I recall from memory. 62vettefp, also remembers reading the same thing. I know this comes to a surprise to you and drjames, because toyota is so open about admitting mistakes. It's awful funny we still haven't heard squat about those 3 officials being cleared of all charges yet !!!!! :P
A resonable person would think Toyota corp. would want to come out and say our guys aren't guilty but we are yet to hear that are we ?????
I've been specifically looking for anything related to this story off and on since July when it broke. drjames, if you are so smart and knowledgable bring me a link that says these guys have been cleared of all charges please. I'll be happily to admit I was wrong if you can do that !!!!
I'll leave it at that because I'm positive you won't find such a link !
Year: 2002 Complaint Number: 10146619 Summary: ON SEPT 22,2005 MY 2002 FORD F150 BURST INTO FLAMES IN MY CARPORT WHILE I WAS SLEEPING. MY DAUGHTER CAME HOME AND WOKE ME JUST IN TIME TO GET OUT OF THE HOUSE BEFORE THE ENTIRE HOUSE BURNED. I RECEIVED THE RECALL NOTICE JUST A FEW DAYS AFTER THE FIRE. THE FIRE WAS WITNESSED TO START IN MY TRUCK. THE TRUCK WAS SO SEVERELY BURNED THAT SEVERAL INVESTIGATORS REPORTED THIS WAS TYPICAL OF WHAT THEY WHERE EXPERIENCING WITH FORD FIRES ALTHOUGH FORD'S INVESTIGATORS REPORTED THE CRUISE SWITCH WAS PROPERLY FUNCTIONING ACCORDING TO AN X-RAY OF THE PART. HOW THE PART COULD BE FOUND IS A MYSTERY SINCE THE TRUCK WAS SO DAMAGED. FORD IS NOT TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANYTHING. WE LOST EVERYTHING WE OWNED. *JB
There is a reason why we have investigations. It's to get to the truth. But it appears as though for some folks, the mere accusations are enough.
Something similar happened with a few lacrosse players from Duke recently. A large part of the population was ready to throw the whole lot in jail and throw away the key. My point is there's a big BIG difference between accusation/investigation and guilt. Rocky (and a few others) seem to be ready to skip the little investigatory step and proceed directly to jail. It's so much more convenient for whatever point they are making.
Pardon drjames and I for attempting to put a minor speedbump in your way.
Rocky (and a few others) seem to be ready to skip the little investigatory step and proceed directly to jail.
rorr, I honestly believe they were jailed because that's what my brain tells me off of memory. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm yet to be proven wrong and would like to know if my memory is distorted or not.
There are a few folks acting a lot like neanderthals and this serves no purpose except to fan the flames of trashtalk. Keep it up and(hopefully)the host will clip their wings, or worse, shut the forum down like others which got to the level this one seems to be headed for. Yes, Toyota's problems are well known. Is it a glitch? That depends on who you talk to. Your opinion is welcome on that question. Trashtalk isn't. It would also help if the discussion would stick to facts instead of mindless hyperbole. Is Toyota the only automaker having problems? No!! Is Toyota the only automaker which had sludge problems or got sued in class action? No! Is Toyota the only automaker where some execs got charged with offences?? No!! Is any automaker free from some guilt about something?? No!! Does it help any rational discussion to selectively cutpaste only negatives to reinforce speculative opinions? No!! Come on folks, let's get this discussion out of the gutter and act like adults!
When someone disagrees with your opinion about a vehicle or car company, that is not a personal attack on you and does not require a retaliatory response.
NOBODY is proving anything with a message board post. It's time to stop acting as if you're all worried that someone is going to stop in on this, or any other discussion, having NO opinion one way or the other, and then read a few posts and suddenly become a lifelong hater of your favorite brand.
People ARE going to have differing opinions on things and it's highly likely that you're going to see stuff that you're going to disagree with. That's life on the message boards.
Let's stop the sniping at each other and get of of "trying to prove something" mode please.
This is not new. It's a rehash of what was agreed upon in 2003. I received my two notices on the two vehicles I had during that time. Neither needed anything so it was a non-issue.
The class action agreement stated that we had additional rights if we needed them. I didn't. End of story.
.. always in business the difficulties a company encounters is another opportunity to develop better customer relationships.
The sludge issue just at the Ford/Firestone are examples of how not to address them. Without giving away the store dealing with the problems right away often makes them go away.
The manner in which the clients are treated also is a way to keep current customers. There seems to be a disconnect somewhere since with all the massive numbers of problems being bounced around Toyota's sales still are increasing at double digits month after month. All these complaints can't be angering/annoying too many people. I've noted above that I had two of the possible 'sludge' models and I received two recalls last year. As I've noted previously the net effect to me personally has been....nothing.
Literally nothing. No money lost. No time lost. No inconvenience. Nothing....
Until such time as these vehicles do start to inconvenience me or cause me to lose time or money then I'll stay with them. IMO that's what's being reflected in the increasing sales figures month after month.
...Toyota's starting to look more and more like a once-respected televangelist caught in a public bathroom with a male prostitute. Maybe Toyota isn't so pious after all?
Commentary from GM on January sales, the recent past and near future...
From CNN Money.. Toyota's sales rise marked its 20th consecutive monthly sales gain and reflected strong sales of its passenger cars, including the Camry sedan and luxury Lexus models, such as the ES350 and the LS 460.
"Toyota is the outlier in an industry that is a bit weak," said GM sales analyst Paul Ballew. "They sit out there on an island right now."
Build to avoid problems, when they do inevitibly occur take care of them with the least amount of trouble to the owners. It seems to be working, at least in GM's mind.
Agree on the sludge issue. I've probably stated this already, but my '97 Camry was one of the potentially affected 3.5 million cars. That's potentially, as in "possibly."
Well, I had the car for 7 years (bought new) and 111K miles. I changed the oil myself every 5K miles using conventional oil (3+ times per year), and never had a problem with sludge. When I sold the car on eBay 3 years ago, it still looked and ran great.
I received the letter also about the class action settlement. Didn't need to do anything, obviously.
"But God help if an American manufacturer were to have people charged with a coverup, then we'd have to really raise hell, right? But let's give poor maligned Toyota a pass."
Here we go again if it was an American Manufacturer..this was would what have happened. Remember like I said a week ago it took years for the Domestics to ruin their reputation and it was not an overnight thing.
The sludge was 5 years ago. GM loyalists hate when the Japanese Car fans bring up Detroits lack of quality/reliability in the 80's but you guys are bringing up a problem that happened 5 years ago with Toyota. Come on now.
I think the only reason these issues with Toyota are raising so much dust is simply because it's so rare for them to have problems that when it does happen, it's a big deal for the Toyota bashers because it gives them ammo. Problems with the big 3 have been going on for so long that people have become numb to it. Problems with the big 3 are business as usual. BTW, who wouldn't like to have a dime for every time geo9 says "koolaid?" He must really like that word.
Comments
People are going to have different opinions about vehicles and manufacturers, and are going to express them in discussions like this. If you don't agree with something that someone has posted, you might try to persuede them to change their mind or try to make them see things your way. But once it become obvious (and that's usually pretty apparent right away) that they have their opinions and you have yours, it's time to let it go and avoid the trap of starting to talk about each other.
What we want to avoid here is making the discussions about the users rather than the vehicles, manufacturers, or whatever else the topic might be.
Sometimes I wish we could ban the word "you"
come of the woodwork and attack ! Also note the action
today (23 new posts) on the camry thread............
Most of them are also ATTACK posts towards the poor
owner of the lemon buyback camry by the toyota faithful.
For example, about 4 or 5 of them involved firestone/bridgestone tires. But I guess that doesn't matter to you.
attack posts about the license plates huh?
Or the car problems were in his imagination ?
What they forget to remember is the plates (in that state)
stayed with the car when sold.............
All because the poor sap had a LEMON 07 camry that was
bought back and the yota faithful went crazy because
he had the NERVE to post a negative FACT on these forums !
I don't think anyone is claiming Toyota, nonetheless ANY car maker is perfect.
We keep going around in the same circles :sick:
Camry sells 450 thousand a year. I'd say 23 posts in a "Problems" board is not something to base an anti-Toyota propoganda on. It just sounds silly and baseless.
But yet again the amount of toyota RECALLS balloned
from 2.5 MILLION to 9.3 MILLION in a 3 year span is
quite alarming !
Just a glitch???????
Hang in there man, they're gonna be fine. Don't worry too much.
Honestly, I think Toyota has slipped a little versus what it used to be, and that the competition has made great strides in the quality department.
Really I think, these days (with a few exceptions of course) most cars are about equal in the quality/durability area. Really I think it is starting to shift into Dealer service as the make or break for vehicle satisfaction. If they can resolve problems quickly, then you'll have a happy customer.
Poor dealer service certainly sped up the dumping of my Tacoma.
Class Action Suit Brings Relief to 3.5 Million Toyota, Lexus Owners
By Joe Benton
ConsumerAffairs.Com
January 8, 2007
Consumers saddled with sludge-clogged Toyota engines may soon get some help from the Japanese auto giant under the terms of a class-action lawsuit settlement that covers roughly 3.5 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles damaged by engine oil sludge.
An engine gummed up with oil sludge can cost thousands of dollars to repair and in many cases must be replaced. The class action settlement could potentially cost the automaker hundreds of millions of dollars.
The agreement will allow consumers whose claims have been denied by Toyota to submit those claims to a third-party mediator at no cost for binding arbitration.
The lawsuit, filed in a Louisiana district court, could receive final approval by the middle of February. Details of the settlement are being mailed to 7.5 million current and previous Toyota and Lexus owners.
The agreement provides owners of sludge-damaged Toyotas eight years plus 120 days from the original purchase date to file a complaint.
Toyota consumers who have repaired their sludge-damaged engines may be able to recover their costs. The car only needs to show evidence of oil sludge damage.
The terms of the settlement are transferable to future vehicle owners.
Toyota owners have repeatedly written ConsumerAffairs.Com detailing Toyota's attempts to blame sludge problems on inadequate vehicle maintenance by the owner.
Charles in Arkansas said: "At 36,000 miles the engine gummed up and quit running. My wife had the oil changed at Wal-Mart and did not keep receipts for the oil changes. The North Little Rock dealer and the Toyota representative told us such problems were rare and that we had caused the problem but for $2,500 they could fix it. They inferred that my wife was a liar," he wrote.
With the new agreement, consumers need only show reasonable maintenance in terms of oil changes.
Toyotas covered by the Louisiana settlement include the:
• Camry 4 cylinder from 1997-2001,
• Camry 6 cylinder from 1997-2002,
• Camry Solara 4 cylinder from 1999-2001,
• Camry Solara 6 cylinder 1999-2002,
• Sienna 6 cylinder from 1998-2002,
• Avalon 6 cylinder from 1997-2002,
• Celica 4 cylinder from 1997-1999,
• Highlander 6 cylinder from 2001-2002,
• Lexus ES 300 from 1997-2002 and
• Lexus RX 300 from 1999-2002.
In 2002 Toyota admitted receiving 3,400 complaints about sludged engines and the automaker extended its vehicle warranty to eight years along with unlimited mileage to owners of 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles equipped with 3.0-liter V-6 or 2.2-liter four-cylinder engines.
At Toyota dealerships, however, consumers have encountered repeated denials from service managers insisting that sludging occurs primarily when owners fail to change their oil frequently enough.
Lauren wrote ConsumerAffairs.Com from Tampa, Florida that, "My check engine light came on once again so I immediately returned to Stadium Toyota. The next day, I received a call from Stadium Toyota telling me that my engine is damaged due to engine sludge and it will cost me $4,500 to fix it."
In Lawrenceville, Georgia Valerie ran into a hostile dealer despite Toyota confirming her vehicle was "part of their oil gelling/sludge program. The service dept at the dealership says that I'm not entitled to anything," she wrote.
In Apex, North Carolina Jan heard the bad news from her Toyota dealer.
"They checked it over, then called and said that the engine had sludge in it and it needed a $7,000 to $8,000 repair," she wrote.
"They also said it was my fault, because the oil had obviously not been changed properly. When I purchased the car, the Toyota dealer talked me into a $999 extended warranty plan, which he assured me would cover any major issues that might come up with a car. It is called their Tender Loving Care package."
Edward from Parma, Ohio received the Toyota brush-off despite promises of an extended warranty.
"I called the dealer and was basically told by their customer service manager that they refused to do anything and did not care if I chose to file a lawsuit or anything else, Edward told ConsumerAffairs.Com.
Lois from Cedar Rapids is still steaming over her treatment despite promises of an extended warranty.
"We received a letter from Toyota that indicated the engine was covered for a period of 8 years for engine sludge. In February of 2006, at 144,000 miles, the engine started making a loud noise. We were told that our car had 'blown a rod' and needed a new engine. We asked about the previous problem but were told that this was not related to the sludge problem and the car was not covered by Toyota."
The Toyota agreement the court is examining contains no finding of fault by Toyota or its dealers and does not prove Toyota or Lexus vehicles are predisposed to develop oil gel.
Toyota Agrees to Sludge Pact
The Wall Street Journal
By Jonathan Welsh
Jan. 30, 2007
In an important legal precedent for car owners, Toyota Motor Corp.'s U.S. sales unit agreed to settle with thousands of consumers who say oil-sludge build-up ruined their car engines even though they followed maintenance guidelines.
Under the pending agreement between Toyota Motor Sales and motorists who are part of a class-action lawsuit, the Japanese car maker will compensate owners of sludge-damaged cars for engine-repair costs and related expenses from towing and storage charges to rental cars, attorney fees and "inconvenience, annoyance, anxiety and aggravation," according to the settlement agreement filed this month in Louisiana state court in Jefferson Parish. A judge is expected to approve the agreement in a Feb. 7 hearing.
The outcome sets a pattern under which similar cases against car companies could be pursued. Though Toyota's sludge problems have received a lot of attention, car makers including DaimlerChrysler AG, Volkswagen AG and General Motors Corp.'s Saab also have received a large number of complaints from customers about sludge-related damage.
While car makers' standard defense has long been that sludge is the result of neglect by the owner, the Toyota case seems to make clear that many owners had sludge problems despite changing their oil at proper intervals and otherwise maintaining their cars according to car-company recommendations.
Engine sludge or oil gelling can occur as metal particles and other sediment collect in engine oil and cause it to thicken. Eventually it no longer can flow properly through an engine's network of tiny oil passages and parts of the engine fail after being starved for lubrication. In some cases an engine may seem to be operating properly before a sudden failure. Other times drivers will notice the car emitting bluish smoke from the tailpipe as the first symptom of a sludge problem.
Some of Toyota's critics, including a number of mechanics, have said certain oil passages were too small in the Toyota and Lexus engines that became known for sludge problems. One theory is that openings inside the engines that let oil to pass from the upper part of the engine to the lower parts - often called the bottom end - were easily clogged by even tiny amounts of sediment. As a result major components such as piston rings, crankshafts and connecting rods tend to fail, causing enough damage to require engine replacement. Such repairs can cost as much as $10,000, which can be close to a cars total value depending on age and model. Toyota still says the sludge didn't result from any engine-design problem.
A Toyota spokesman says the new agreement, under which the company will repair sludge-related damage for as much as eight years after the purchase of certain vehicles, is essentially the same as a customer-support program the company started in 2002. Toyota agrees to treat the repairs as if they are under warranty even if customers haven't strictly followed the company's oil-change guidelines, according to the spokesman.
The preliminary agreement focuses on two engines; a four-cylinder model called the 5S-FE and a six-cylinder known as 1MZ-FE. The engines were used in Toyota Camry models from 1997 to 2002, Solara models from 1999 to 2002, Sienna minivans from 1998 to 2002, Avalon sedans from 1997 to 2002, Celica coupes from 1997 to 1999, Highlander sport-utility vehicles from 2001 and 2002, Lexus ES 300 sedans from 1997 to 2002 and RX 300 SUVs from 1999 to 2002.
Lawyers for the plaintiffs said they have sent about 7.5 million notices of the class action to owners and former owners of vehicles included in the lawsuit. Vehicles covered by the settlement could total as many as 3.5 million. Gary Gambel, a partner in the New Orleans firm of Murphy, Rogers, Sloss & Gambel, says he won't know the size of the plaintiff class for awhile but says disgruntled Toyota and Lexus owners "have been coming out of the woodwork" as an agreement has drawn near.
The case began with Jeff Meckstroth, a New Orleans stockbroker, who purchased a Lexus RX 300 sport-utility vehicle in late 1998. After about two years and 42,468 miles, the Lexus's engine failed. He wound up winning an arbitration case under which Lexus replaced the engine in his vehicle.
I guess we are just going to have to disagree on this one. I have either driven or ridden in many fairly late model vehicles from serveral makes and I can tell you there is a big difference between the Civics and Corollas to Cavaliers and Neons. Even when the Cavaliers and Neons have had fewer miles on them (and in some cases, way fewer miles) than the Civics and Corollas had, they appeared to be the much higher mileage vehicles. They squeeked and rattled, interior panels were falling off, exterior panels were misaligned or coming loose and sometimes discolored, while the Civics and Corollas were still tight, quiet, nice looking, and nice driving cars. In some cases the gap between foreign and domestic has closed, in others it has widened.
Rocky
Rocky
Related topics: Toyota Accidents & Injuries Criminal
By: Yuri Kageyama , AP Business Writer on 07-11
Three Toyota officials are under a criminal investigation on suspicion of professional negligence for allegedly shirking recalls for eight years and not fixing a defect that may have caused an accident, police said Tuesday.
Toyota Motor Corp. denied the officials had engaged in any wrongdoing. The automaker said in a statement it was cooperating fully with the investigation.
Kumamoto police in southern Japan filed papers to prosecutors Tuesday, a police spokesman said. Accused are three Toyota officials, ages 62, 58 and 55, who oversee quality control at the automaker, he said.
Their names have not been disclosed. Toyota said at least one of the officials had left the company, although reasons for the departure were unclear.
Five people were injured on Aug. 12, 2004, in Kumamoto in a head-on crash when steering failed in a Toyota Hilux Surf sport utility vehicle, causing it to swing out of control into the wrong lane. One person in the other vehicle suffered injuries requiring 52 days of treatment, while four suffered more minor injuries, police said.
Toyota said a recall was carried out in October 2004 for 330,000 Hilux Surf vehicles manufactured between December 1988 and May 1996. The recall was for a problem part used in the steering system that could break, according to Toyota.
Toyota said the vehicle involved in the accident was manufactured in 1993.
Toyota had received five reports of problems with the steering by 1996, but the problems were limited to repeatedly turning the wheel during parking, and no recall was made then, it said. After additional problems were reported in 2004, Toyota carried our another investigation and decided to carry out a recall.
The model affected by the 2004 recall, totaling 1.2 million vehicles, was sold in 180 nations abroad including the U.S. and Europe, and a recall was carried out in September 2005, according to Toyota. Eighteen cases of problems were reported from overseas, but there were no accidents or injuries, it said.
A Toyota official, speaking on condition of anonymity, quoted police as saying that reports about problems began in 1992, and company officials are accused of being aware of them as early as 1995 or 1996.
The automaker, based in Toyota city, central Japan, said it will continue to make quality a priority.
"We will continue to strengthen quality control under our belief that we must put the customer first and make quality No. 1," Toyota said in the statement.
Toyota has been reporting booming sales in recent years and is growing so rapidly some analysts expect it to overtake struggling General Motors Corp. of the U.S. as the world's biggest automaker in coming years.
But Toyota, known worldwide for impeccable quality, has suffered somewhat of an image problem lately because its number of recalls has soared, raising doubts whether the automaker can continue to maintain quality standards as it embarks on the next step of global expansion.
http://legalsoapbox.freeadvice.com/n26907_3_Toyota_officials_probed_in_alleged_r- ecall_negligence.htm
Rocky
WE WENT THROUGH THIS ALREADY.
Check post #168 and your OWN response #170.
Could you point out in that article where it said that the officials were JAILED?
I had a Subaru Legacy Wagon (I know, odd rental) recently that wasn't put together that great. Interior reminded me of the Mazda 6, but the Mazda 6's I've had were put together much better. The Ford Fusion seemed well put together. The Mercury Montego I had was put together well, but seemed cheap inside for the price. The chevy Impala I had surprised me a bit as it was a little nicer inside then I expected and better screwed together. Ford Focus's that I've had have been pretty solid as well.
Really out of the mix I typically get, the Taurus and Corolla are usually the worst. I hate getting either. Crappy interiors and typically rattle like no one's business.
That all said, I don't really like to use rentals as an example as they are typically (sub) base models, abused heavily, and a small sample at that.
After all, they need to get back to satisfying their 4 million U.S. customers with a recall or a sludge-based stall. Oops, sorry. I guess that doesn't fit your Weltanschaung of Toyota either.
So I guess no one has yet figure out what causes the sludge in yota engines? With so many sludge engines, can't their engineers figure out why?
The officials were jailed as I recall from memory. 62vettefp, also remembers reading the same thing. I know this comes to a surprise to you and drjames, because toyota is so open about admitting mistakes. It's awful funny we still haven't heard squat about those 3 officials being cleared of all charges yet !!!!! :P
A resonable person would think Toyota corp. would want to come out and say our guys aren't guilty but we are yet to hear that are we ?????
I've been specifically looking for anything related to this story off and on since July when it broke. drjames, if you are so smart and knowledgable bring me a link that says these guys have been cleared of all charges please. I'll be happily to admit I was wrong if you can do that !!!!
I'll leave it at that because I'm positive you won't find such a link !
Rocky
Model: F-150
Year: 2002
Complaint Number: 10146619
Summary:
ON SEPT 22,2005 MY 2002 FORD F150 BURST INTO FLAMES IN MY CARPORT WHILE I WAS SLEEPING. MY DAUGHTER CAME HOME AND WOKE ME JUST IN TIME TO GET OUT OF THE HOUSE BEFORE THE ENTIRE HOUSE BURNED. I RECEIVED THE RECALL NOTICE JUST A FEW DAYS AFTER THE FIRE. THE FIRE WAS WITNESSED TO START IN MY TRUCK. THE TRUCK WAS SO SEVERELY BURNED THAT SEVERAL INVESTIGATORS REPORTED THIS WAS TYPICAL OF WHAT THEY WHERE EXPERIENCING WITH FORD FIRES ALTHOUGH FORD'S INVESTIGATORS REPORTED THE CRUISE SWITCH WAS PROPERLY FUNCTIONING ACCORDING TO AN X-RAY OF THE PART. HOW THE PART COULD BE FOUND IS A MYSTERY SINCE THE TRUCK WAS SO DAMAGED. FORD IS NOT TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANYTHING. WE LOST EVERYTHING WE OWNED. *JB
Rocky
Well said pal !!!!
The sludge issue according to Toyota's engineers is a engineering isssue. See it's you consumers that are causing all these problems.
Rocky
Boy if GM, Ford, Chrysler, dared to dance on that branch you'd see a riot !!!!
Rocky
There is a reason why we have investigations. It's to get to the truth. But it appears as though for some folks, the mere accusations are enough.
Something similar happened with a few lacrosse players from Duke recently. A large part of the population was ready to throw the whole lot in jail and throw away the key. My point is there's a big BIG difference between accusation/investigation and guilt. Rocky (and a few others) seem to be ready to skip the little investigatory step and proceed directly to jail. It's so much more convenient for whatever point they are making.
Pardon drjames and I for attempting to put a minor speedbump in your way.
rorr, I honestly believe they were jailed because that's what my brain tells me off of memory. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm yet to be proven wrong and would like to know if my memory is distorted or not.
Rocky
Keep it up and(hopefully)the host will clip their wings, or worse, shut the forum down like others which got to the level this one seems to be headed for.
Yes, Toyota's problems are well known. Is it a glitch? That depends on who you talk to.
Your opinion is welcome on that question. Trashtalk isn't.
It would also help if the discussion would stick to facts instead of mindless hyperbole.
Is Toyota the only automaker having problems? No!!
Is Toyota the only automaker which had sludge problems or got sued in class action? No!
Is Toyota the only automaker where some execs got charged with offences?? No!!
Is any automaker free from some guilt about something?? No!!
Does it help any rational discussion to selectively cutpaste only negatives to reinforce speculative opinions? No!!
Come on folks, let's get this discussion out of the gutter and act like adults!
NOBODY is proving anything with a message board post. It's time to stop acting as if you're all worried that someone is going to stop in on this, or any other discussion, having NO opinion one way or the other, and then read a few posts and suddenly become a lifelong hater of your favorite brand.
People ARE going to have differing opinions on things and it's highly likely that you're going to see stuff that you're going to disagree with. That's life on the message boards.
Let's stop the sniping at each other and get of of "trying to prove something" mode please.
The class action agreement stated that we had additional rights if we needed them. I didn't. End of story.
The sludge issue just at the Ford/Firestone are examples of how not to address them. Without giving away the store dealing with the problems right away often makes them go away.
The manner in which the clients are treated also is a way to keep current customers. There seems to be a disconnect somewhere since with all the massive numbers of problems being bounced around Toyota's sales still are increasing at double digits month after month. All these complaints can't be angering/annoying too many people. I've noted above that I had two of the possible 'sludge' models and I received two recalls last year. As I've noted previously the net effect to me personally has been....nothing.
Literally nothing. No money lost. No time lost. No inconvenience. Nothing....
Until such time as these vehicles do start to inconvenience me or cause me to lose time or money then I'll stay with them. IMO that's what's being reflected in the increasing sales figures month after month.
Hasn't happened yet. How many different sources rank Lexus number 1 in dependablity? countless!
The toyota folks keep drinking that koolaid and dancing
in fantasyland !!!!!!!!!!!!
From CNN Money..
Toyota's sales rise marked its 20th consecutive monthly sales gain and reflected strong sales of its passenger cars, including the Camry sedan and luxury Lexus models, such as the ES350 and the LS 460.
"Toyota is the outlier in an industry that is a bit weak," said GM sales analyst Paul Ballew. "They sit out there on an island right now."
Build to avoid problems, when they do inevitibly occur take care of them with the least amount of trouble to the owners. It seems to be working, at least in GM's mind.
Well, I had the car for 7 years (bought new) and 111K miles. I changed the oil myself every 5K miles using conventional oil (3+ times per year), and never had a problem with sludge. When I sold the car on eBay 3 years ago, it still looked and ran great.
I received the letter also about the class action settlement. Didn't need to do anything, obviously.
I guess Toyota did figure out their sludging problem because I don;t hear about a sludging engine in a an 07 Camry or an 07 Corolla.
Here we go again if it was an American Manufacturer..this was would what have happened. Remember like I said a week ago it took years for the Domestics to ruin their reputation and it was not an overnight thing.
The sludge was 5 years ago. GM loyalists hate when the Japanese Car fans bring up Detroits lack of quality/reliability in the 80's but you guys are bringing up a problem that happened 5 years ago with Toyota. Come on now.