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Subaru Forester (up to 2005)
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Comments
In general, I am rather frustrated with the "short end of the stick" that we get in the USA. Look for example at Nissan X-Trail. What an awesome SUV!! Yet if you want one, you have to go to Mexico... And for the Forester that i want with dual-range, i have to take a trip to Australia or Europe...
Still, the top models are not offered here.
-juice
Bob
Ed (pardon the sarcasm)
Actually, what I'd really like to see, would be a LPT 2.5L engine offered as a stand-alone option package for BOTH the X and XS models. That way you would get excellent power, without all the bells and whistles, if that's what you want.
Bob
The EPA rating is the same for the MT 2003 as for my '98.
The rear seat room is specified as only .3 inches more, BUT the front is spec'd at .6 more, so if the front seat is pushed back only as before and not all of the way, you can have an extra .9 inches of legroom in back. It seems like a bit more though because of either the angle or height of the rear seat, at least to me.
The new model has more overall height and a wider track, but slighly less overall width. Interior dimensions are nearly the same, but slightly less headroom, suggesting seats may be higher. Turning radius is reduced by about 3 feet.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I just don't see the Forester gaining much in the way of towing capacity (especially if it gets a turbo vs. the H-6) or off-road ability. This is because both these areas are relatively small niche markets and there's not enough return on the dollar to develop/offer those capabilities here in the States. It's just my opnion but I don't think that SOA's target market contains that many boat owners or Rubicon trail aficionados. Besides, were I serious about either or both of those pursuits, I'd just get a Jeep Liberty and be set.
Just my two cents.
-Frank P.
Still, I'd like to see it be a leader in this class, and 200hp is common now (XTerra, Escape, Liberty, Tribute).
Glad to see a better turning radius, it seemed big for such a short wheelbase.
As to Bob's request, I see two distinct directions for the Forester. The turbo would satisfy me, Ken, Frank, and Ed. We want a sporty yet practical Sport Ute, emphasis on Sport.
But how about a "Utility Package", added to a base model? Give it the H6, the tow package standard including the hitch, with an engine and tranny cooler and only the rear disc brakes from the high-end models. Keep the steel wheels, even, maybe with a slightly raised suspension. Class II towing, and throw in a low range while you're at it.
I imagine it could sell for the same price as the XS model, only it would offer the rough-and-tumble types an alternative that doesn't exist now.
-juice
As for highway speeds -- usually 5mph above the speed limit. No more than that unless I'm passing an old f*rt or something.
Could the A/C being on influence the gas mileage all that much?
Thanks,
burnsmr4
P.S. - No way in hell I'm resetting my ECU the way that Australian website mentioned. Yikes! I thought I could just disconnect the battery for 30 minutes. Jeepers, I'm confused. :-\
-juice
Did you noticed Bret mentioning that the procedure was from the WRX owners' manual?
I wonder if it is on the manual Stateside?
I also did come across a posting in another board (many moons ago) about resetting by removing one of those big black fuses in the engine bay. Don't remember what that fuse number is The claim was it would reset the ECU without disrupting the accessories.
-Dave
Chevy Silverado 4x4
Nissan Frontier crew cab
Nissan Xterra
Audi A4 Avant/Volvo V70
Legacy GT/Outback
Forester S
I'm looking at the smelly '03 Forester brochure as I type and note that the much-anticipated illuminated ignition switch ring is only available on the XS. Speaking of XS, recall how silly I thought that model designation? I see in the brochure that SoA uses the phrase "going to the XS never looked so good." Ugh.
Ed
Ed: you are one strange cookie! ;-)
I'm not sure how marketers could figure you out, though I was also all over the place before my purchase. I drove the Passat, the CR-V, the RAV4, even a Durango.
I guess they had to use the popular "X" letter somewhere.
-juice
Ross
-juice
Burnsmr4- Resetting the ECU is simply a matter of disconnecting the battery for 30 min. The radio and clock are the only things you have to reprogram.
-Frank P.
As I consider myself a member of this wonderful "home team," it is disheartening to note that Subaru again scored below average in the J.D. Power 2002 Initial Quality Study, as reported in today's USA Today. Average is 133 reported complaints per 100 vehicles through the first 90 days of ownership. Power does not does not disclose below-average scores (I have no idea why), but the paper reports "by industry sources" that Subaru scored 156 complaints out of 100, placing them in 30th out of 36 places.
At least that is a gain of one place over last year's score, but still down around Daewoo and Kia territory.
C'mon Subie!
Joe
Casecom2: WHERE in western Saint Paul are you, neighbor? If I were two blocks west of where I am, I'd be in the Mississippi. So I'm about as "western fringe" as it gets.
Rochcom: I totally agree about the mesh hideyholes in new Forester. Who wants to LOOK at the crud they are toting around? I'd much prefer solid material. Reduce visual clutter.
Y'all have a great weekend. It looks like I'll live to post again next week.
Steve
The surefire way is to disconnect the negative terminal on your battery for about 20 minutes. Works every time.
How can you tell the ECU has been reset? For me, the tell tale sign is a drop in gas milage. When the ECU has little information, it most likely tells the engine to run rich until it can learn your driving habits and safetly lean out the fuel mixture. Many folks who often notice a surge of newfound power after an ECU reset may be seeing the increased power from the engine running rich.
Ken
It is a defect in my personality that I get real irritated when someone does something of their own freewill, then complains about it later. Or buys something, with full awareness of its limitations or characteristics, then complains about those limitations or characteristics. Maybe it's my Dad coming out in me -- the old farmer didn't like complaining -- just live with your decisions, take responsibility for yourself.
And are Subaru owners bitcher than Honda owners? That is a real issue. Subaru tend to draw a certain group of people -- are we more perfectionistic? Are Honda or Toyota owners more reluctant to complain about their cars -- trying to keep them #1?
Really, I just don't see that much difference between Honda, Toyota and Subaru. I've owned them all, I like them all, they seem the same, quality-wise: initally and as use and miles roll-on. I love my Forester -- and no one could have gone to more pain and trouble comparing the RAV, CR-V and the Forester before buying. Operation, function, and reliablity predictions all said, Buy the Forester.
Initial quality survey by category: click here
Press release: click here
--'rocco
To your question of core importance, "Is it genuine defects in manufacture or some form of initial disappoinment or dissatisfaction with the new vehicle?": It is the latter. (The operative word in "complaint," not "defect.")
So you received "some sort of survey about 90 days of ownership - it didn't mention J.D.Power." What was the return address?
"And are Subaru owners [non-permissible content removed][i]er than Honda owners? That is the real issue." This cannot be known, and I think the real issue, were I Subaru, is cutting down on the initial complaints.
"Subaru tends to draw a certain group of people..." Could you please specify? One would think that we Subaru owners span the whole trajectory of "types," just as Honda owners would claim about themselves. Are there illuminating data on this issue of the "typical" Subaru owner?
It would be interesting to know.
When I stated, "C'mon Subie," I was hoping that Subaru, as a responsible manufacturer of a fine product, will pay attention to a major player in the automobile ratings industry, and actively assert itself in cutting down on initial complaints, and thus make its fine product even better.
Joe
Agreeable that it is so; however, the word "compliant" is soooo general. "Ooh the color is more red than I thought" is a complaint. But is the color defective? That's the point Peter was expressing. If J D Power is measuring quality by addressing "compliant", then I would have to lean towards that their assessment is defective and misleading.
"Are there illuminating data on this issue of the "typical" Subaru owner?"
hehe... most of us are name Dave, Mike, or have a K in their name; uses the Mac; at least a dog/cat; OCD....
hmmm maybe that's why there's lot of complaints - OCD ;-)
-Dave
But, if Subaru bested Lexus/Toyota in the Power poll, wouldn't we be crowing?
My initiative here is motivated by the concern that we not fall into the, "Oh, CR likes us, we are good and CR is good; Power does not like us, Power is bad," trap.
Respectfully,
Joe
Subaru owners: well-educated; computer users; Internet connected; professionals (well represented in education and medical fields particularly); out-doorsy (Subaru goes after us via our organizations); pragmatic -- Dave, Mike, dog, cat etc.
OCD: My wife and I decided on the Forester after researching for a year, and creating in the process a spread sheet with over 60 categories of comparison, and initial and a final review to find our ideal car. We included, at one time or another, all the small SUV's with AWD or automatically engaging 4wd. Test drove most of them, plus Xterra, Outback, Legacy L. We included Legacy wagon and Outback in the spread sheet for price/feature comparison. For our requirements, the spread sheet indicated, in order: Forester, Legacy L, Outback.
Forester has only exceeded our expectations.
Joe
Anyone can make a spreadsheet but anything you can do with a spreadsheet you can also do with just paper and pencil.
Nevertheless, goldencouple deserves applause for taking the time to collect and analyze the data.
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
I understand car writers going for Escape -- a little extra horsepower salves many sins for them. They notice that Santa Fe has more horsepower than a Forester but never stop to notice that a Forester is lighter and goes faster.
CR is good to Subaru because Subaru makes quality cars that seem to last well. CR is more oriented to mechanical failures on its surveys, also.
Power is really oriented in another direction. Sure, it would be nice if Subaru made a better showing. It makes a better showing in long term, mechanical integrity. It's initial impression that seems to be the weakness -- as per Power. But Power appears to be more "flash" oriented, and I'm not sure I trust that. "Flash" can spell "flash in the pan" and the beauty you brought home does not age well, as it turns out.
Power has rated Subaru highly in Great Brittain -- highest in customer service? I think that was it. But in the US consistently low as per Power. The thing is, Subaru is rated pretty highly around the globe -- US, Australia, GB anyway -- quality and reliability, a peculiar durability and endurance.
So, I have to wonder about Power's criteria, methodology, and importance to anyone but car manufacturers and dealers, who must be very concerned with "flash" to get the car out the door -- and charging enough to make a profit after amortizing the limited warranty (the super-secret, actual defect projections that every manufacturer does and will tell no one about).
Ross
well, after doing research, test drives etc.....i am proud to announce the birth......i mean, i am the new owner of a '03 Forester X.
Charlie, as he has been deemed, is awesome.
love the styling, ride, acceleration, appointments etc........
i was the first buyer of an '03 from the dealer in massachusetts that i purchased from.
my wife and i hope Charlie will be a great vehicle.
this site has been very helpful to me in obtaining information about subie foresters, albeit somewhat biased....
regards
ace57 from massachusetts
know what you mean about the trap.
Worst is the false confidence or lack there of that may be instilled upon unsuspecting Buyers if Power's survey methology is defective [I don't think they take severity into consideration].
Consumers will associate 'compliant' as used by JD Power to defect and misled they'll be
i.e.
Make A complaint(s) - no brakes. Total - 1
Make B compliant (s) - too red, cushion itches, and power windows don't work. Total - 3
Make B is bad, 3 complaints and Make A must be good, it only has 1.
I better zip up. Going OT.
-Dave
Dave: Yes, this thread is a toasted filament. Would that someone from Power would chime in and clarify its criteria. When they speak, people do listen, whether the message is liked or not.
Joseph.
-Rod
The 8 ball says,...."Forester"
Good Luck
Ya, you'll fit in just fine
-Dave
Have a great weekend, all.
Also, it seems that the biggest changes were made on the lower models- the S premium and the XS premium have only the moonroof in common since the side airbags and larger rims are now standard on all models (which is great!). But for me, $1000 buck for a moonroof is a bit pricey- I'm leaning towards the '02 unless there is compelling reason to go to the '03 (safety being important). Also, and finally, what is Electronic Brake-force Distribution?
Eager to buy,
Dan
rsholland May 14, 2002 10:33am
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
You da man!
Dan
I forgot to post the link to the J.D. Power quality rankings reported in USA TODAY which Joe was referring to while posting my earlier message so here it is if anyone is interested: USA TODAY article showing rankings
--'rocco
-Dave
Steve
I've been to the crutchfield site and if I were to replace my front speakers with one of the EZ designated speakers, would I have to disassemble the whole door panel or could I just take off the original grill and swap the speakers. And lastly (at least for awhile) what size tweeters should I install? Are one inch speakers in the tweeter grill space recommended?
Thanks for any help you may be able to provide.
Gene
However, JD Power does have longer-term surveys available. A mid-term and a long-term. Of course, that never seems to get as much attention!
One poster said the instruments were "rotten". I like the layout of my 99 S's and I like this new layout, too. Straightforward, nothing fancy, just like my BMW's.
The new mesh side pockets are getting a thumbs-down, too. I like the idea of being able to stretch things into the space now instead of trying to jam stuff into those little slots that exist in previous models - it does leave the items in view, though, so I suppose if I suppose if I had something like a radar detector that I wanted to hide, I'd stick it under the seat now.
Someone commented on the higher glass level in the back - that was the first I'd noticed any difference, the nice large greenhouse I've come to appreciate on my '99 sure seemed to exist on the '03!
A big improvement on the '03, I think, is the padded armrest. It's not a lot of padding but my '99 has no padding and it irritates my elbow after driving a short while.
Someone didn't like the painted mudflaps. I think they look nice; unpainted ones would look tacked-on and besides, a piece of gravel isn't going to go down and then backward to scratch the paint as the car is moving forward!
The lower lift height in the rear gate is a nice touch; makes it easier to load things.
The higher quality steering wheel and brake handle on the XS look sharp!
I agree that the earlier alloy wheels on the S look a little nicer than the '03. Hopefully Subaru has compensated by making them more resistant to staining and looking dingy after a year or two of driving through rain and snow, but I've never found alloy wheels that could do that!
The cluttered look of the radio area in previous models is greatly improved in the '03. I didn't get to play with the auto-control HVAC because the model I drove hadn't gone through pre-delivery service and the AC wasn't working (someone commented many posts ago that the Check Engine light was flashing on his demo 03 - my salesman said they all do that before the pre-delivery service is complete).
Subaru is still delivering the Foresters with white sidewalls - it's a personal thing, but the white clashes with the other colors (unless you order white).
The rear window now has a separate heater for the rear wiper - nice touch! I can imagine the window's going to cost even more to replace now! I had to get my front window replaced - make sure you get full window glass replacement on your car insurance, because the front window had to come from Subaru and they're not cheap!
The interior noise level is lower than my '99; the annoying wind noise that appears to be coming from the left mirror area is gone now.
The brakes seem to be stronger now; on my '99, it feels that they are battling mightily to bring the mass of the vehicle to a halt, but on the '03, that feeling didn't seem to be there (although my demo was the XS with rear discs).
The seat fabric, I thought was nicer in my '99, but that's a personal thing; the new fabric might be a little easier to clean.
The clutch on the manual I drove seemed much smoother than my '99, which has about the worst clutch I've ever used - it engages in about 10% of it's travel, very difficult to get used to.
The overall appearance of the exterior is different, but I never felt my '99 was ugly - just kinda funky looking, especially the rear end!
Just a thought to those who may already own a Forester and are thinking of getting this new one: only the sum of what I thought were nice little improvements (and one big one - the brakes), plus having a newer model under warranty was enough to make me buy one. You may find that there just aren't enough improvements or that your model isn't old enough to justify the cost!
Rod- You gotta get a Forester, you fit the Subaru demographic perfectly! Seriously though, both the Forester and CRV are excellent choices so you really can't go wrong. A good suggestion I've heard before and makes sense: test drive them back to back and go with the one that leaves you with the biggest smile. Regardless, let us know what you decide and best of luck!
-Frank P.
Looking through my rearview, I can see the driver and passenger...
EAR<-------Grin------>EAR
-Dave