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Comments
While I agree (finally) that you can engineer solid feeling and lighter weight, but there are still cost and material constraints involved. High-tensile steel and aluminum alloys cost more.
You say "we all have choices" and I agree, GM just happened to target the crowd that wants something big, solid, and roomiest in class.
You hear a lot about this premium fuel issue, and while it's true it may cost only $200 extra per year, in the long term that adds up to a rather substantial amount.
I kept my last car for 9 years. That's $1800! It adds up!
It's funny because some just don't care, they see it as a $4 a week cup of coffee. Others add it up long term and see it as a free GPS Navigation system, or pocket the savings.
To bring this back on-topic, Subaru made a really big deal about the Tribeca's new 3.6l engine running on regular fuel. It's in every press release, every review, the brochures, the e-mails, everywhere.
Funny thing is with the old engine premium wasn't even required, it was only recommended. Still, they though it was a big enough issue for their customers that their marketing campaign uses the words "regular fuel" as often as they do "Subaru Tribeca".
There is absolutely nothing "objective" or "measured" about Consumer Reports. They are as biased as anyone.
The Flex might be worth talking about, not the FS or T-x.
I really liked the Fairlane concept, but the Flex doesn't quite spark my interest like the original concept did. The Fairlane looked like a gigantic Mini Cooper. The Flex just looks like a limo version of a more plain-looking crossover. Check out the overall length!
I'll still check one out for the interior alone.
All the numbers DO (as long as we are back in high-school, I WANT TO USE ALL CAPS TO, PERIOD) show that there will be less injuries coming out of Taurus X than from Outlook.
I'd also like to see an update on the Subaru Tribeca. They tested pickups for this coming month, though.
I don't think it would do much for the accident avoidance manuever, though. That's up to the suspension and the tires, mostly.
Sorry, couldn't resist the joke, but I'll pay with another invitation to drag race an FS if I can ever get a sweet deal on an Enclave.
Ok, you owe me a new keyboard. Spat out some soda and I think it just stopped workkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
No.
There is absolutely nothing "objective" or "measured" about Consumer Reports
My comment was regarding the measured part.
Surely such major changes will have some effect on the overall crashworthiness. Not necessarily worse, just different.
At least the front NHTSA and front-offset IIHS tests.
Noone can say the engine and transmission have no effect on these results:
How does that usually go? I think the Taurus X should be re-tested. I'm sure the drivetrain is shaped differently and weighs a different amount.
In less than one year - when the Flex arrives - it is very likely that the Taurus-X will be discontinued.
As Car&Driver aptly put:
Parked next to the flashy new Flex, we can see the Taurus X gathering quite a coat of dust on Ford lots.
I really liked the concept even more.
I seriously doubt that. Why give something a major update and not sell it at least two years. According to what we know right now there are few benefits of the Flex over the FS, besides a big sunroof, a cooler, and a lot of second row leg room. Styling is no better- infact, besides the boxy structure, the same. The TX would be great for those who don't want radical styling of the Flex- or the weird name. It's probably cheaper to build, too.
The FS/TX are a great idea-basically the next step of the Taurus wagon (now sharing the name, too), a great idea for people who want lots of space in a very carlike package. The Flex is a little too out there for me.
If Chrylser could have done this with the 300C (Pacifica doesn't count), I would have one in my driveway RIGHT NOW!
I do give the Flex some credit, as Ford oviously tried on this one (though it wasn't exactly a new design). But still, the oferings from competitors look stylish in a more neutral, not so violent way.
Has anyone noticed the Flex is the complete opposite of the 3rd gen. Taurus?
"The FS and Fivehun have no emotion"
And the outlook, acadia, and impala are packed full of emotion??? You cite honda(accord, admittedly not full size), toyota(avalon), & nissan(maxima) as bastions of design and being emotion packed, I find that ironic given their market segment. They are all incredibly safe designs that offer no reason to be emotional about any of them when gazing at them. Their profile's reflect the identity of each manufacturer, they are appliances in the best sense of automobiledom and they sell in great numbers to make money for their companies bottom lines. They are purposfully conceived in focus groups to appeal to the most people as possible in very pedestrian terms, they all go, are comfortable, reliable(?), priced competitively, are safe, but are by no defined by style or emotion. Given that why would you hold ford to this standard as simply these manufacturers aren't playing to it either.
To counter you typical disappointment with Ford's effort's I find them by no means any worse than an Impala if you want to compare apples to apples and ford to gm as is popular around here. I'd also the fusion is by far a more attractive design than any malibu ever was. Poor proportions, poor detailing, poor look, dated interior, yeah I'd say ford hands down win that round in the terms you are discussing and by a wide margin as it seems to be selling well. Keep moving down the market and you'll find a focus being a much better driver/design than any of the gm small cars.
The 300C/charger lines defines style/emotion as you seem to infer it with a dose of hemi power in this segment not the japanese manufacturer's you have cited as example. Chrysler has provided the cartoonish dated look that will age very poorly as they are right now designs that are committed, polarizing and overdone. They as a manufacturer I'd argue are defined by style and power. The only problem with it is their design direction dates itself quickly, and is by no means graceful, elegant, or something I'd want in my driveway.
So while the 500 may not be the emotion packed sedan you desire, none of the rest of them in the segment are either short of the 300C/Charger and I've made MHO known on that.
The "One Big Frill Ride" is the most rational thing out of you in a while as it concisely defines the lambda's IMHO. The outlook is a safe design with saturn design cues, the acadia is a 7/8 yukon butch as the day is long, and the enclave looks like it morphed from a design laying on the floor from the mazda cx7/9 design studio(I know it didn't and it being the most polarizing of the bunch as the others are quite safe and emotionless) Save the overpriced/overdone enclave as the only one having a shot at the emotion you speak, the FS is a solid design that doesn't rely on cartoons or a false sense of overdoneness to derive its aesthetic. It's solid, safe design that neither incites or offends just like the acadia/outlook, it's just another shade of beige in the CUV segment.
"But still, the oferings from competitors look stylish in a more neutral, not so violent way."
With this you are just calling beige a different shade of beige, at the end of the day this market segment is still wrought with emotionless beige conveyences short of the chrysler effort.
It will be interesting to see the final flex in consumer trim, I hope they don't sell it out in it's final development as on paper it seems to be right there with the current crop of "Big Frill Ride's", maybe it will even come in weighing a bit less.... stay tuned.
opinion's will vary, may be plain wrong, and will by no means define the direction of the automiblie as it moves boldly into the future... but we'll keep debating all of it here in our little corner of the internet anyway.
I hadn't thought of it, but well said.
I won't "drag race" you, but I guarantee I'll blow by you in everyday driving. :P
Proving the point that you don't need all that extra horsepower, you just need the will to USE some of it.
At least if you're anything like the vast majority of people in their overpowered vehicles.
shortened;
"Automakers win one on fuel economy
Markey backs down on House fight for 35 m.p.g. standard
August 1, 2007
By JUSTIN HYDE
FREE PRESS WASHINGTON STAFF
In a victory for Detroit automakers, the main backer in the U.S. House of tougher fuel economy standards said late today that he would not push for his 35 mile-per-gallon standard this week."
It's good to see the system working to "everyone's" benefit, wink...
When a solid design ages well, the manufacturer doesn't have to scramble for nose or tail jobs after only two years in production under the pressure of 25% drops in sales numbers.
In comparison, GM has started the 3rd shift in its Lansing factory in an attempt to satisfy demand. Buick dealers are screaming bloody murder because they can't even keep a model on display.
To defuse the whole "my Ford is bigger than your GM" debate, I will finish by saying that the CX-9 is the most elegant design work I have seen on the road in recent years.
It's pretty obvious that people don't really care about gas mileage, given that we've INCREASED our driving in reply to gasoline prices going UP this year compared to last year.
that does not define good design, that defines success in the marketplace.
"To defuse the whole "my Ford is bigger than your GM" debate, I will finish by saying that the CX-9 is the most elegant design work I have seen on the road in recent years."
In a touch of irony to your point and illustrating the expanding and contracting of global industries, mazda is under the ford umbrella, one could argue you have come out in support of ford's efforts...but I get your point, don't agree but I get your point...
I do realize that part of (40%?) Mazda is owned by Ford, but I had no point to be made against Ford design in general. I had two Fords before my current vehicles, one of them a hatchback Focus 2000, because I thought they looked great. Conversely, I secretly wished that GM went out of business for putting the Aztec into production.
Maybe others have a general prejudice against Ford or a strong GM bias, but you will find neither here.
Why can't you live with your choice and be happy with it? Obviously, it was not the styling that sold you on the FS. There are many other positive attributes about it that you like (and continue to point out as well).
If you don't like it when people reject the FS out of hand, why do you regularly denigrate other peoples' choices? You must be a real fun guy to hang out with. There's a time to be OK with knowing what you know, even if no one else knows it yet. Now, back to teh discussion of CUVs...
On more thing, I did point many problems with the lambdas and spent time posting my research numbers here. I asked tough questions about the Outlook being priced the same as Enclave or fully loaded lambdas being potentially overpriced.
I can still imagine myself buying one and not hanging out on forums defending them to my last breath whenever someone brings up one or more of those points.
We are not our cars.
I've more than conceded points about the FS as well, as for defending to last breath, just like a lot of you find it fun to poke jabs at the FS, I'm just throwing it right back.
What most forget is that for 2 years we were enjoying our FS's unencumbered by the debate of a lot of competition for it short of the pacifica, highlander, rendezvous(not that anyone knew it had 3 rows, had one as a rental and had no clue). Then the lambda crowd and others showed up late to the party with a lot of disparaging things to say about our purchases and how they had the 2nd coming of automobiledom. That got a little old as it wasn't a comparison around here as much as it was FS slam-fest free for all. Needless to say that got a little old.
The internet lacks the same subtlety of conversation hence it all seems to get a bit personal around here... I'm more fun than you think and I'm quite happy with most aspects of out FS ownership for the past 2 years.
who still wants to drag race on PINKS....??? c'mon, you know you want to....
that's me kidding...
Hey! just got off one, and I don't remember it having that much chrome. You don't like the Enclave? look atone of the other two. The Saturn has a similar interior, but you will pay about the same price.
You wanna talk about the 300? Okay! Which one is still selling? The 300? It's good looking and has aged VERY GRACEFULLY- to the point where people still want this car even though it's been out more than four years. I- and most others on this forum would have the 300 in their drive way before that ugly 500 (and why can't they just put 500 on the back?!).
Why are the lambdas so popular, and the FS barely selling to Hertz? GM got it. They know they had to wrap a quality package in great styling. You know all three lambdas look 10 times better than the FS. GM, unlike Ford, has built a product that the masses actually want. The FS and Acadia shouldn't even be in the same room together (though part of that's because they are built for two diff. purposes, so you really can't compare). That's all that matters to an automaker- not oh this feature is better than that feature, or Even though are product isn't selling, it's one of the best packages on the market. It's about which product is selling. And that's not something the FS ever has done. oppinions are oppinions, but you can't tell me it was any different. I guess you could, as I haven't heard you make a relevent statment in a while.
This was a thread about CX-9, Acadia and minivans. Come to think of it, the FS would not have been discussed at all if you had not forced it into the discussion. To come now and say that you defend it so fiercely because people were poking fun at is revisionism at its worse.
You responded to an early posting of mine (where I did not ask anything about the FS, which was about to be replaced by the TaurusX):
Shoot me for saying it but our FS is significantly lighter than the lambda's, better real world mileage, are a screaming deal to buy and are a good alternative as they have a nice amount of space behind an occupied 3rd row.
I was a bit taken aback when someone labeled you an FS apologist at the time. Not anymore.
And I will say your CX-9 is nothing more than a goofy looking minivan with a cramped third row.
You're right and wrong about the Murano thing. Yes the Murano is still aa great seller, and you can see a little copying of the style in every CUV in the market, the CUV that automakers always have and always will copy is the Lexus RX. That's still the benchmark, and though in my oppinion it's been surpassed many years ago, it still maintains its elegance, and upscale composure. That's the one every CUV wants to be. Well- that, and maybe the X5. It's funny, the RX has changed names more than body styles.
Thanks for the breath of fresh air. Some people here would have us think the Freestyle can walk on water.
Kudos for a well written post. :shades:
You don't know me at all. :P
that does not define good design, that defines success in the marketplace.
Now that's just silly.
That defines success in the marketplace due to good design.
GM deserves this success.
it wasn't a comparison around here as much as it was FS slam-fest free for all
Quite the opposite. This thread was a Freestyle love-fest. And there was a bias I can prove - go to the MPG thread, there was a call-out for people getting more than 30mpg. That's slanted reporting. If you seek out good results that's what you will find. Why didn't they ask for people getting poor mileage?
Freestyle love-fest, that's why.
Absolutely not, but they would have you think that a lambda would sink faster because THEY ARE SO OVERWEIGHT, etc, etc.
And a Freestyle would also sink more gracefully, endowed by the beauty of an ageless design that is not marred by a false sense of overdoneness.
They might even argue that the Freestyle would float, having such great door seals for sound insulation.
And by the way, they got 33mpg up until the point they hit water and started floating!
Ford Freestyle, 47.0 mph (slowest crossover)
Saturn Outlook, 50.0 mph (best crossover)
Drum roll please...
Toyota Sienna, 51.5mph
They see me rollin'....
I laughed and laughed
Typically I don't even read all these Freestyle comments (much too wordy), but that was a good one.
I have to respectfully disagree. The reason the CX-9 is a bit cramped in the back is because they went for high style. In doing so, the vehicle has a longer snout proportionally than some of the others, and certainly more of a beak than a mini-van. I think it is attractive, but all that is so subjective.
GM has gravitated toward the long wheebase/rear-wheels-much-further-back-than-most look. Even though all the other manufacturers tuck the rear wheels under the second seat, lots of people seem to like the GM proportion, too. And it is not just with the Lambdas. The Pontiac Grand Prix and G6 have that proportion, and the Chevy Equinox/Pontiac Torrent as well. The extended wheelbase Trailblazer that preceded the CUVs looked like that too.
Wow...I didn't know that you held the key on the subjective topic of auto styling
The FS and Acadia shouldn't even be in the same room together (though part of that's because they are built for two diff. purposes, so you really can't compare).
I didn't know this either. The lambda is taller, wider and heavier and can hold 8 vs 7 as compared to FS. The lamda can also tow more. Other than these two things, what can the lambda do that the FS cannot? Please tell me.
good design is not defined by consensus but by vision, if it is defined by consensus as you infer then why aren't there tracks and tracks of phillip Johnson's glass houses being built for the masses to occupy as opposed to the mindless, wasteful mc-mansions that are spreading like a virus?
full size, mid priced design success in the market place on a large scale yes involves some design, but not the emotion charged design albook alluded to with his admonishment of the 500 as if it was the only one lacking in the marketplace. To state the mid priced, full size sedan segment, which is what I was commenting on, is FULL of emotionally charged, stylish, options is silly especially from the manufacturers he mentioned. You don't buy them because you "have to have" them you buy them because you are buying their reputation and ratings in consumer report's, not style and emotion to the extent that was implied. I countered with the 300c as the only one even remotely having a shot at supporting his thesis, not the 500 if you take the time to read/understand the intent of the comments fully as opposed to reacting to the bytes, I'll try and do the same...
as I said at the end of the day beige is still beige despite the ford shade, gm shade, hond-ota shade, etc. in the full size sedan market, if you choose to see beige as high style and example of fine design which is "on par" there's no reason for me to keep doing what I do, but I already knew that and will keep doing it anyway...
For me it's the same with cars. I don't need my box on wheels (aka minivans, CUV and SUVs) to have useless curves on the outside and fake (or real) wood on the inside (sort of like the brick veneer on the front of the ugly developments) to make me think I'm driving "luxury" or a sports car. Plain and simple is what I like. Not to say I want every car to be a gray box, but just that a simple design isn't necessarily a "bad" or "boring" design and I'd rather err on the side of simple.
But since the "masses" are buying the ugly houses in these new developments, I'm sure the vehicles out front will match their taste.
So it's ok to sacrifice the more important intended function of the CUV in the search of "high style" as you term it. Why not spend a little more time and effort to achieve both as opposed to just taking it on the chin like that.
Okay- that was a little over the top, but what I should have said was that GM obviuosly spent more time onn design.
ANd the kambda is more to the FS what the FS is to a Dodge magnum. They are just different.
Maybe because styling will sell more cars than a few more inches of legroom in the 3rd row, especially for people who will only use the 3rd row for kids. Look at the Lexus version of the Highlander, which sacrifices the 3rd row in the cause of style. Mazda is known for zoom-zoom and style, and that's what they're carrying over in their CUV line of vehicles. It's very consistent for them as a company. When you think of Mazda, space efficiency isn't the first thing to come to your head!