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Subaru Outback/Legacy Starting Issues
Yesterday it was 10 degrees Farenheit and my usually trusty subaru would not start (turned over but didn't start). This car has its original battery. I had AAA come out and jump it, then drove it to Napa auto parts. The guy there tested the battery and said it was fine (holding a charge etc) and I did not need a new battery. I asked if the car should start now and he said it should. He did suggest that I clean the terminals with baking soda- as apparently there was some corrosion that he claimed might cause problems with cold weather starting. Drove my car around for about 20 minutes or so running errands (kept engine running) and brought it home. About four hours later, same problem, turns over will not start. So any ideas? My temptation is to try to clean the terminals and if that doesn't help, jump it and drive it over to the dealer so they can have a look. If it isn't the battery then what is it? If I do need a new battery what model is recommended? Cold weather is anticipated for the next few days. I appreciate any advice that might be offered.
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Hi Cliff!
When you got jumped, it started. Support from a good battery was all it needed. Some running put back enough into the battery to get you thru the following day. Cleaning the terminals also helped a bit, as you removed a series resistance that dropped voltage slightly. I would not be surprised if the non-start happened again after a long cold soak.
It is time. You got your money's worth out of the OEM unit. When you start having trouble like this, $60 or so is a good investment. See the Oct '06 issue of Consumers for the battery test. I just went thru a week of odd electrical issues with my wife's '02 Honda Ody, finally ending in non-starts. New battery, and the whole electrical system on that van is working a lot better. I'm thinking of changing the battery pro-actively on my '02 OBW just for piece of mind.
Steve
Wear gloves and do not touch the water that's in the battery now, as it becomes very acidic.
Having said all that, I'd still get a new battery with more CCAs.
-juice
I'd replace the battery. I got a cheap one at WalMart, something like $40-60 or so, that had nearly twice the CCA rating as the stock battery.
It's just not worth it to have to worry about something to cheap and easy to replace.
-juice
Temp is still a pleasant +10F.
It all has to do with cold crank amps, and old batteries do not have as much resilience as newer ones. When it is -5F and you have, say 10W-30 oil in the engine, not only are the movable parts very gummy, but your engine is trying to move around thick sludge rather than runny oil. Take a quart of oil, put it outside overnight, and then try to pour it out of the bottle..... it is somewhat akin to molasses (black strap at that!). It takes far more amperage to move that mass than it would at temperatures even 20 or 30F warmer. Get a battery with double the CCA and also take Bob's suggestion of waiting a few seconds between "On" and "Start." The no-start problem will most likely disappear.
Also, if these temperatures are at all common at your location, you could have a block heater or even just an oil pan heater installed so as to plug it in for a couple of hours before cold-starting. Doing so considerably reduces the CCA demand on the battery.
Dealer: 500 something CCA $89.00 plus installation (ha ha ha)
Napa: Legend 7535 600 CCA $65.99 (install it yourself)
Autozone: Gold Duralast 640 CCA $79.99 (free installation?)
Advanced Autoparts: Autocraft CCA640 $79.88 (10.00 core- whatever that is- probably not a consumer friendly sort of thing). (free installation?)
I have never replaced a battery but it can't be too hard right? I will provide another exciting update later today.
That implies that they will not install for you, because if they did there would be no core charge (they would just keep the old one right then and there).
-juice
To answer your earlier question, yes the CCA test that Napa did can be misleading. As I said earlier, when the battery cranks out a large amperage, the voltage drops. The rest of the electronics in your car might very well be sensitive to this at cold temps. If the brain doesn't process well, you get no fuel or spark. Doesn't matter if the starter can turn the engine, she will never start.
If the jump helps, you got your answer... buy a battery.
Steve
-mike
Some owners prefer to install on their own even with free installation. They don't want someone else under their hood! :P
For the Miata I got some other brand at Advance Auto Parts, can't remember now. It's one of those gel-acid ones, kinda smaller.
-juice
-mike
On the other hand, perhaps it only requires the warm climate of Hell to revert to its former Angelic self?
-juice
So AAA came out again this morning. A balmy 8 degrees today. Car again would not jump start (just as I expected). They put it on the flatbed trailer and took it to the dealer. Guess what!!! The mechanic was able to start the car on his first attempt. Maybe all I really needed to do was lift the front end of the car up a few feet so the gas could slosh around. Why didn't I think of that in the first place?
A general question along thisline ... just bought a 2007 Outback last week. When the temps were cold here in Colorado last week (single digits to just under zero), the car turned over very slowwwwly when I started it up. OK, it was cold. But my 1993 Corolla and 2005 Odyssey started right up. Question: Is there some doubt about the original manufacturer's battery in the Outback? Thanks.
Plenty of doubt, for me. I also have a 2007 Outback, new as of 1/7/07. Temps here have been unseasonably warm, but the first 48 hours were quite cold (highest temp was -36F), as well as a lesser snap about a week later in the -20F range. During those temperatures, the car did start (slow cranking), but almost every time it would lose the preset sound adjustments and FM stations on the radio. Highly annoying. As it has not happened during any of the warmer temperatures (between 0F and +30F) we have experienced outside of those two cold spells, I tend to think it is a weak battery issue. The car cranks slower than my old '96 did, but maybe that is a feature of the starter more than anything. Have not had any problems with it actually firing off, but I also have a block heater and oil pan heater that are plugged in below +10 or so (depends on whether I remember to do it!).
I do know that this car hates cold. The windows will not work during the cold, the shift and e-brake boots both cracked dramatically during the cold, the doors do not want to latch... I could go on. I attribute most of the problems to poor quality lubricants, but (sarcasm warning) since Subaru hardly sells any vehicles in cold climates, why would they bother with cold-tolerant lubricants? :P
If I continue to have radio issues at cold temps, I will replace the battery with something that has far more CCAs. Loss of current to the radio is step one to loss of current to the ECU. :sick:
To battery or not to battery... That is the question.
-mike
I do hope it starts for you tomrrow though... except then it would just exacerbate the ????
Like your problems with the inadequately sized new battery in your Outback, the 5 year old battery in our Honda kept glitching the electrical system. In it's final week of life it would start, but the draw would knock out subsystem processors, like to the power doors, some dash indicators, transmission interlock and the like. For a few days I thought we were looking at a real electrical system meltdown, until I realized it was a battery issue. And that was when morning temps were in the 20-30 degree range. With a new battery and temps in the single digits, she runs like a champ. Oh, and at our last servicing, Honda told us that the battery tested as a virtual 2 year old!
Steve
Though I can't blame that - I didn't top off the fluid.
-juice
Thursday am 5 degrees- won't start, won't jump start. Hooked up to battery charger for 15 minutes and then started. Had to get to work but stopped at autozone to pick up some of dry line additive for gas tank which I poured in and some jumper cables. Car started fine from auto parts store. Drove to work. Shut it off. Started it again just for fun. Worked. Car started 7+ hours later to go home (22 degrees by then).
Friday am 6 degrees- won't start, won't jump start. Battery charger not charged up so I couldn't try charging it up again. Took the bus to work.
So what next? :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:
And did you then buy a new battery? I looked at the thread and didn't see that, but I could have missed it.
Given that batteries are relatively inexpensive, I'd get a new battery. Paying $100 for peace of mind is worth it to me. And if you still have issues afterward, then it is something else.
And speaking of, I still view my new 2007 Outback's original battery with suspicion. Given I live in Denver and my wife and two kids are often in the car, I am considering just buying a new battery now. Question: Do I have to go to the dealer because of warranty (bought the car 10 days ago)? If I go to AutoZone or Sears or whatever, is that warranty problem?
Thanks.
I've discussed what has been described here with mechanics at the dealership where I've bought all my cars and with the guys at a buddy's garage and they're leaning to a fuel issue, with spark running second in their estimation.
No, not as long as the battery is specific for your model (in other words, proper dimensions, etc). If you have battery problems afterward, though, it is a battery manufacturer warranty issue, not a Subaru warranty issue!
As with anything else you do with the car, make sure you keep receipts, etc. For example, there is no requirement that you take the car to a dealership for interval service, or even that you take it to any shop, but you must be able to reasonably show that the service was performed "within spec" should something related crop up down the line.
There have been many times when I jump other cars (or receive jumps) that it takes 2, 3, maybe more minutes to have enough current to start the disabled car - especially if the battery is dead or weak. Oh, also, higher-than-idle engine speed on the donor car will provide more current and help the disabled car start sooner. When solo-jumping, I usually "brick" the accelerator on the donor car to about 2500 RPM.
Hooked up to charger unit, car would not start.
Kept hooked up to charger unit for 15 minutes would not start.
Was able to jump start with jumper cables after that.
Drove to auto parts store. Got brand new battery. Duralast gold with 640 CCA.
Starts like a charm.
Drive to a restaurant. Decide line is to long. Starts like a charm
Drive to a different restaurant. Eat dinner, walk to nearby bookstore. About 2-3 hours later
THE CAR DOES NOT START!!!!!
It did jump start and I drove it home. And of course it started again right away shortly after I had turned the car off.
OK brilliant minds of the forum.... what's up with that?
Also pf flyer had suggested a possible fuel pump problem. Read this whole post for info. The idea was that by turning the ignition to ON for awhile first the fuel pump would engage and then the car might start when I turned the key all the way. Well this did work one time (on 2/4/06) but has not seemed to work since.
-mike
So unfortunately, electrical and computer issues are the downfall of modern cars. Did you see any signs of corrosion when you changed the battery? I still think there is something to the fact that adding a second battery in parallel sometimes helps. Even a strong battery will dip in voltage when cranking. Two batteries in parallel might supply the needed amperage, but have less of a voltage drop. Net being that the electronics are still getting closer to the full voltage (12.6 or so for a wet cell battery). Once the alternator is running, voltage rises to around 14.5v. A good cranking battery can drop down into the 11v range. An old battery substantially further. Something sounds like it is voltage sensitive. Connector corrosion can easily cause a voltage drop, although it could just as likely be faulty electronics.
Steve
Let's get REAL specific on what you're doing and what's happening when you try to start it to avoid jumping around to different potential problems.
I assume that the battery IS cranking the engine.
I assume/hope that you're NOT stepping on the gas while trying to start. If you're old like me :P you might have a reflex that makes you try to step onthe gas while starting. But as I learned, with a fuel injected car you don't need to. Holding the gas down while trying to start will actually turn the fuel pump off while cranking after a few seconds. If there was no fuel pressure (for whatever reason) this would also keep the car from starting. (I sat out in the cold doing this one morning)
On the car I have this issue with, the only time I HAVE to do the key ON trick is if I let it sit for more than 24 hours without running. Whatever is causing the fuel pressure leak takes that long before it forces me to re-prime the pump as it were... if I've beenout driving and thengo back 3-4 hours later, I can just turn the key and start the car.
So, back to square one.
Go out and try to start your car normally. No gas pedal, just turn the key and try to start the car.
1) Does it crank?
2) Does it start?
It sounds like the answers are Yes and NO
Then I would turn the key to ON and listen for the hum of the fuel pump.
3) Do we hear the fuel pump?
That could be a yes or no. My wife really doesn't hear it, even though she says she does...LOL
You might even want to cycle the key from OFF to ON poition for 5 seconds two or three times.
Now try to start the car.
4) Does it crank? (assuming yes)
5) Does it start?
If it doesn't start, we still have fuel or spark as possibilities.
You've said it has started since this thread began, so I wanted to find out if your right foot and the gas pedal has been involved during the times it did not start.
If it starts EVERY time you try the key ON trick while making sure to not step on the gas, I'm positive you have fuel pressure bleeding off, or some kind of fuel pump issue.
If seems to start randomly, I'd lean towards a fuel problem since that seems more likely than an intermittent spark, although I could be mistaken or guessing wrong on that.
If it doesn't start at all, the two possibilities still exist in my mind since battery is crossed off the list.
Isn't diagnosis via message board fun? :P
With all the brain power amassed here, we should be able to figure out something!
Heidi Ho
Spark or fuel, so in order I'd look at the fuel filter, spark plugs, spark plug wires, then the ignition coil and the fuel pump. The cheap stuff first.
-juice
-mike
Quite perplexing, really.
I just had my fuel filter changed, my battery was done new, actually, thanks to this thread. The only thing, I cant pinpoint when the problem started, before the fuel filter change, or after. The battery was definitely after the problem manifested itself. As easy as the fuel filter was to change, I actually had Tires Plus do this, since I was out of town (too lazy) to get it done. I checked the lines in and out of the filter, and they were tight, and I didnt see any leakage. Is there another thing for me to check to see if this can be part of/ the actual culprit?
How exactly do you change this? Where is this? What does it look like?
Anyway, just suggestions, since I'd like to resolve mine as well.