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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    I don't think lack of electronic stability control is "nit picking".

    Maybe Ford figures their engines in the Fulan are so sluggish, back seat riders don't have to worry about whiplash anyway.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,040
    But they have it now, so why continue to bring that up? It wasn't an industry standard in this class when they designed the Fusion back in 03-04 and the lack of 4 channel ABS prevented it from being easily added.

    AWD can increase safety in inclement weather - I guess the other mfrs just don't care enough about safety to put that in their midsize sedans.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I guess the other mfrs just don't care enough about safety to put that in their midsize sedans.

    You mean other than VW or Subaru.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    Is ESC standard on every Fusion and Milan? That is news to me.

    This is 2008. Actually 2009 in terms of model years. Look to the right. Four of those cars have ESC standard on every trim line. On 3 others, it's either a readily available option (and was in 2008 or before) or standard, depending on trim line. The slackers? Ford and Nissan.

    How many Fusions and Milans have AWD? How many of the popular I4 Fusions and Milans have AWD? Get back to me and talk about AWD when every Fulan has AWD, like Subaru does with the Legacy/Outback.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,507
    > I guess the other mfrs just don't care enough about safety to put that in their midsize sedans.

    I came into the middle of this thread but I want to point out many of us, in the snow area, don't want AWD. If the weather is bad enough to need it as the only way to get around in snow sans judicious, intelligent, physics-based driving techniques, then I am not going to be driving.

    The additional weight and the mileage penalty of AWD/4WD systems is some many of us don't want.

    I don't think there's a point to alleging that manufacturers don't care about safety.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,040
    Yes, I meant Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia.... you get the point.
  • mtnman1mtnman1 Central OhioPosts: 431
    Backy I just test drove a Fusion SEL V6 last Friday and I found the HP to be very good matched up with the 6 speed Transmission. It's now become a difficult decision for me between the Sonata Limited V6 and the SEL V6. The deals I've been offered and the Cars are equals as far as I'm concerned. Sonata has them with the fact that they come with stability control and a longer warranty.
    2012 Highlander Limited AWD V6 and 2015 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    So you like how the 2 cars drive equally well, and the deals are the same, but one car offers electronic stability control and a superior warranty. So... why is that a difficult decision? :confuse:
  • mz3smz3s Posts: 17
    Because the man has emotions, that's why. You shouldn't buy a car on paper merit alone, although a lot of people feel you should. Maybe he likes the font on the gauges or the sound of the e-brake better on one car moreso than another.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    Well, he said he likes (implies emotion) both cars equally well. I was taking him at his word. But if the decision is difficult, it's clear that there are other factors at work here.

    Personally, I'd take ESC and a longer warranty (and better FE and more power and a more ergonomic control layout and...) over a nicer gauge font, but that's me. :)
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    I think the Fusion gets adjusting rear headrest for 2010 when the car gets facelifted. I saw a set of spy pics that show off the new rear end and you can clearly see that the headrest are adjusted.

    And isn't stability control about to be mandatory for all cars next year? If so all cars will end up with it by this time next year.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    And isn't stability control about to be mandatory for all cars next year? If so all cars will end up with it by this time next year.

  • mtnman1mtnman1 Central OhioPosts: 431
    There are emotions at play here. I kind of like the Fusion's interior and exterior slightly better. I felt the engine power was about equal. It had the upgraded stereo which I felt sounded better, the leather felt like it was a bit better quality, and I like the Sync feature. Like you said it should be a no brainer if it has a better warranty and a more secure vehicle because of ESC. I don't know backy for me it's always been more than just numbers and even facts about a vehicle. I'm 52 and I've made some good decisions and bad decisions in my car purchases. I remember when I was 21 I bought a used Fiat X19 two seat car because I just had to have it because it was so cool to me to drive. I sold a beautifully maintained 1970 Pontiac Firebird that my dad gave me when I graduated from High School in 1974. It was my Dad's car and I was going to Penn State at the time and my Dad was pretty upset when he found out I sold the car to buy the Fiat. I owned it for 9 months, 7 of which were spent sitting at a Fiat Dealers repair shop. I'm going to have to go back and drive the cars some more and Ford will allow me to take one home overnight. As I've gotten older I try to keep my emotions out of the decision making process, but it's tough.
    2012 Highlander Limited AWD V6 and 2015 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    So in fact it's not equal in your mind between the two cars. In the Fusion's favor are interior, exterior, stereo, leather feel, and Sync. For the Sonata it's ESC and warranty. Now that we have a better picture of what you think about the two cars, I can see why it's a difficult decision.

    At the end of the day, you need to decide which car you'll like driving most over the next few years, which one will be most livable for you and yours over that time. Will the spiffier looks and electronics of the Fusion make you happier long-term, or will the extra peace of mind from things like more safety features and longer warranty make you happier? I'm more on the safety/security side myself, but I know electronics are a big deal for many buyers. And as long as I can live with the looks of a car long-term, that is enough for me unless everything else is equal except styling.

    Have you considered waiting for the 2009 Fusion? Then you could have ESC plus everything else it offers that you like. And there's always extended warranties if you really want a long warranty.
  • mtnman1mtnman1 Central OhioPosts: 431
    Have you considered waiting for the 2009 Fusion? Then you could have ESC plus everything else it offers that you like. And there's always extended warranties if you really want a long warranty.

    Yes I have and that's one of the options I'm considering. The one thing that concerns me about the Sonata is that it's in it's first year of the re-design. I know in the second year they get the little bugs out that seem to develop in the first year. I do have to buy a car sometime next spring or summer because I want to give my youngest Son my 03. Otherwise we will have to drive him and pick him up from school everyday on top of running him back and forth from the sports he participates in. He will be a High School Junior in 2009 and our school district does not have buses for Juniors and Seniors.
    2012 Highlander Limited AWD V6 and 2015 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    The one thing that concerns me about the Sonata is that it's in it's first year of the re-design.

    Yeah, I suppose those new dash vents might break. ;) Seriously, it's still the same engines as debuted almost four years ago, but with improvements. The 5AT in the I4 isn't new; it was used earlier in the Optima et. al. But I think you are aiming at the V6, so that is a carryover but with some tweaks for more power. The suspension from all accounts is improved from the 2006-8 Sonatas. Those cars have an excellent reliability track record per CR etc. The basic platform, body, and most electronics are carry-over. Not a lot of new moving parts there.

    If you want an excuse not to buy a 2009 Sonata and get the Fusion, I could think of lots better reasons than that. :)
  • tedebeartedebear Posts: 832
    I don't suppose you'd want to test drive the 3.5L Sebring, right? You'd have the leather, ESP, 6-speed autostick, lifetime powertrain warranty, MyGIG and a whole lot more.

    I test drove a Fusion before I bought my Sebring last fall. Been very happy with it for 10 months thus far.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,601
    I wouldn't consider preferring the appearance of the exterior and/or interior as being "emotional", unless you were making a decision based solely on appearance. I also would not consider the preferring features of one car vs another as emotional.

    To me, "emotion" is primarily driven by a concern of "what will others think of this brand?, or styling "only." In choosing a mid-size sedan, one has to consider the various pros & cons to see which car fits your needs best. Buying brand X over brand Y because of the badge is, I think, an emotional decision.

    The '09 Sonata is not a new model subject to the possible bugs you fear in a new model. It is a refresh of the current generation introduced for the '06 model year in the spring of '05.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    I was over at, they have a listing of all changes for the Altima Sedan, Coupe and Hybrid.

    · New standard features on Altima base model:
    – Improved manual transmission operational feel
    – New 16-inch wheel cover design
    – Black grille highlights
    – Dual power remote-controlled sideview mirrors
    – Trip computer and outside temperature gauge
    – Power door locks with auto speed-sensing door lock system
    – Air conditioning with in-cabin microfilter and front side window demisters
    – Trunk cancel switch and rear seat lock
    – Dual sun visors with driver’s side vanity mirror
    – Speed-sensitive variable intermittent windshield wipers
    · Revised 2.5 S equipment (standard Xtronic CVT™, dual zone automatic temperature control)
    · Revised 3.5 SE Sport Package content (Vehicle Dynamic Control, HID bi-xenon headlights), standalone Moonroof Package
    · New stand-alone 3.5 SL Vehicle Dynamic Control Package
    · Three new exterior colors: Sonoma Sunset, Majestic Blue and Sonoran Sand

    The 2009 Nissan Altima Sedan is available in four models: 2.5 (6MT), 2.5 S (CVT), 3.5 SE (6MT, CVT), 3.5 SL (CVT). It goes on sale in August 2008.

    2009 Nissan Altima Coupe
    Introduced as an all-new design for 2008, the 2009 Altima Coupe receives just minor refinements for the new model year, including:

    6-speed manual transmission refined for improved operational feel
    New 16-inch wheel cover design
    New standard 18-inch aluminum-alloy wheel design for Altima Coupe 3.5 SE model, along with standard 235/45R18 Michelin tires
    New high-gloss grille finish (previously medium gloss)
    New auto speed-sensing door locks

    For 2009, Altima Coupe is available with a choice of the award-winning VQ-series 3.5-liter V6 rated at 270 horsepower or 175-horsepower 2.5-liter inline 4-cylinder engines, each offered with either a 6-speed manual transmission or Nissan’s advanced Xtronic CVT™ (Continuously Variable Transmission).

    Also offered is a long list of user-friendly technology features – including standard Nissan Intelligent KeyÔ with Push Button Ignition, available Bluetooth® Hands-free Phone System, available advanced touch-screen navigation system with XM NavTraffic® with real-time traffic information (XM® subscription required, sold separately) and RearView Monitor.

    The 2009 Altima Coupe is offered in two models: 2.5 S and 3.5 SE. It goes on sale in August 2008.

    2009 Nissan Altima Hybrid
    Introduced in 2007, the 2009 Altima Hybrid mates a refined version of Nissan’s QR25 2.5-liter 4-cylinder gasoline engine with an advanced electric drive motor/generator. Together they give Altima Hybrid a net power rating of 198 horsepower (148 kW). With its standard electronically controlled eCVT, the Altima Hybrid achieves an EPA estimated fuel economy of 35 mpg City and 33 mpg Highway and is rated as an Advanced Technology-Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle (AT-PZEV).

    For 2009, enhancements to the Altima Hybrid include:
    New auto speed-sensing door locks
    · Four new exterior colors: Red Brick, Navy Blue, Sonoran Sand and Mystic Jade

    The 2009 Altima Hybrid is offered in one model, with available Technology and Moonroof Packages. It goes on sale in August 2008.

    Note the error on new colors for the regular sedan...they are indded Red Brick and Navy Blue not Sonoma Sunset and Majestic Blue (as they are already available)

    Seems i spoke too soon about the 2.5BASE, backy, looks like it will become a more popular trim for those of us who like to row our own gears. the 2.5S is automatic only now too.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 12,039
    i bought an '07 fusion awd. it seems to be a pretty good car and it was a great deal.
    the gas mileage seems to be ok. went from about 29 with a focus 2.3 stick(over 42k) to about 22 in the fusion(less than 3k).
    the fusion has more style than the sonata, although i think the wheels on the sonata look great.
    i'd like to leave my emotions out of the decision, but i can't. you have to pick the car that will be the best one to own for you.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    Did I read that list of new features for the base Altima right? Is it only getting power mirrors, a/c, and a driver's side vanity mirror (not lighted apparently) for 2009? If so... Nissan didn't sell too many base Altimas before now, did they?

    I didn't see ESC (or whatever Nissan calls it) on the list for the I4. But then there's the new wheel covers and grille. ;)
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    Naw, the 2.5BASE has never been a big seller. It wasn't a big seller for the previous generation Altima either. Neither was the "XE" Altima from generations One and Two. The trim was basically Nissan's "Altima starts below 19K" trim level...but that looks to be changing for 2009. I still don't think it will sell in high volume (as its 6MT only still) but sales should pick up slightly.

    What's interesting is that the 2.5S (which is the volume seller) is CVT only now and has automatic climate control standard...a feature that was once only available on the 2.5S with SL pkg, 3.5Sl or 3.5SE with Premium pkg. So now the SL pkg may very well include the CD6 and XM radio instead of making folks pay for this feature in the Connection pkg.

    I also see that the VDC is now grouped with the Sports pkg (since the Moonroof is a stand-alone option now) so basically since Nissan has pkgs that are cumulative models with the Sports pkg and up will have VDC but I4 models will not.

    Looks like we won't see VDC available on the Altima until it gets a full facelift (next year for MY2010) or a full redesign...which accurately matches up with when it will be 2012.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I think the base model was a fictional character that was created so that they could advertise a price of $19,900. IIRC, it was by order only, no dealers could stock them. I think it also only came in black with no options available.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    That part about black only was a joke, right? Well, if not... it worked for Henry, didn't it?

    Fortunately not too many mid-sizers have these stripped trims that don't exist in normal space, and that no one would want. Base Accord, Aura, Camry, Fulan, Malibu, Passat, Sonata... all pretty well equipped.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    No joke. I thought I remembered that from the brochure. I just checked, using edmunds "price with options" feature, and black is in fact the only color. They do show 2 options, though: Aluminum Kick Plates and Emergency Aid Package.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Aviboy, any idea how the product mix for the new 6 will turn out? Which trim is projected to sell the best? I'm willing to bet its the Touring models.

    Max, we believe that the i Touring model will be the most popular. We have ordered mostly Touring and GT models. We have ordered a few Sport's in there, mainly to use them as a price leader for advertisement purposes.

    The SV trim is only available as a special order by getting special approval. Don't expect to see any. I really don't know why they even offer it.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I really don't know why they even offer it.

    Probably the same reason Nissan has the base Altima, so they can advertise an MSRP of <$20K.
  • karpediemkarpediem Posts: 46
    Backy, I'm surprised you were able to reply to something concerning the Altima and not mention ESC....actually the majority of your posts include those 3 letters. IMO it makes no difference to me if a fwd car has ESC or VDC, and I have the possiblity of driving in snow 5 months out of the year.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    Maybe I like that particular feature because the possible snow season where I live is about nine months--and it was nearly that last winter. Or maybe because I want my wife and 3 kids (two of whom drive now, one in a few years) to have every advantage when it comes to staying safe on the road. If you don't have others driving your car or don't care much about their safety, that's none of my business.

    Just as it's none of your business how often I mention ESC. Or VSC. Or VSA. Or ESP. Or whatever it's called.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    I can relate Backy...I spent a good chunk of last year living in Chicago while working on a driver assignment for my trucking company. My 05 Altima, which lacks ABS, SAB, SAC and ESC had a time dealing with the ice, snow and cold of Chicago winter. I vowed that when I did get another car it would have as many safety features that were available and that's why the current Altima isn't really on my list. Living in South Carolina I always wondered what was so great about remote engine start or stability contorl...I quickly realized how important both were once I moved into the midwest.

    South Carolina winters are like early Chicago springs...LOL. A little snow here and there but nothing really significant. When I moved to Chicago, I'd never seen so much snow in my life! That's the primary reason the next 6, Accord and of course the Sonata are so high on my list because once I'm done with college (I'm going back in the Jan!!!) I'm moving back. I love the Chi.
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