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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,718
    you can ask over at Real World trade in Values forum. good luck.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • mtnman1mtnman1 Member Posts: 431
    Thanks for the tip. I ran a search in Auto Trader and came up with about 8 Grand Marquis within 50 miles. There was a 2003 that was loaded with 68,000 miles on it for $6999. Looked very clean in the pictures. I've seen many cars in the past week that looked great on the internet, but were pieces of crap in person. I'd be a bit concerned with a rwd vehicle in the winters we've been getting the last 10 years. Lots of snow and ice. I'm definitely leaning towards the 2003 Impala with 77,000 miles on it even though it doesn't have ABS. The car is in excellent condition and both my older kids had cars without ABS when the got their first. Plus my oldest son is still driving a 2002 Impala that he bought from the same dealership in 2005 and now has around 140,000 miles on it with no major issues. Hopefully I won't regret it if we do buy it and heaven forbid he does get into a bad accident because he locked up the brakes. I'll just have to teach him how to brake as we all had to do before ABS came available. I managed living in Pittsburgh with all its hills and snow in the winter when I was a teen and young adult.
    2012 Highlander Limited AWD V6 and 2015 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    My two cents. I would get a car with ABS, if given the choice. It prevented me from hitting a car that pulled out in front of me once already. I can also remember one case in my youth (before ABS) when it would have prevented a crash. I don't see the advantage of teaching a young driver on a RWD car, when eventually they will most likely be driving FWD in the future anyway. I also think an Impala is a good choice. A Grand Marquis is pretty large for someone just learning. Doesn't leave much room for error, and harder to handle.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I second the decision with ABS. I'll never own another car without it. It caused me to lock, fishtail, and eat guardrail when I was nearly run off the road back in my teenage years.

    Also, whoever said there was no mileage difference in the Grand Marquis and Impala is dead wrong... 16/23 for the Mercury, 19/29 for the Chevrolet with the 3.4L engine, 18/27 for the bigger 3.8L V6 in the uppel level Impalas. That's quite good for the torquey motor.
  • sporin71sporin71 Member Posts: 27
    Personally, I own an 08 Accord LX which I am very happy with however I wish I had gone for a higher trim. With deep discounts and some fresh faces on the scene I've considered trading up and the Fusion is a strong contender as I like the looks, the price, and SYNC is a big draw for me.

    With a few notable exceptions aside, this segment is very good overall, with each doing various things better or worse in shades of gray.

    That's why the decision is so hard.

    Off my list:
    Altima: Dislike the looks, don't find the "drive" any better then it's competitors.
    Sonata: just not my cup of tea
    Jetta: Too small for the price imo. TDI Wagon would make me cave on size, but the premium price and lack of incentives kills it.
    Passat: premium price
    Galant/G6/Aura/Chrysler-Dodge: old stuff, not interested

    Waffling:
    Malibu: Local dealer is toxic but the car seems ok, I'd like to check it out
    Camry: I'm a Toyota Truck guy, but have never loved their cars, I find their interiors confining as they always use a very high center console which my fat self doesn't fit well. Need to drive one again, my buddy just bought a black one with tan leather and it's very nice looking.
    Legacy: Love that I can get a wagon but they are everywhere up here and I just don't like the current version, as much as I've tried. Maybe the next-gen will be better for me.

    Top of the heap:
    Fusion: Love Sync, looks, price, lots of local dealers. Wish I could get leather, HIDS & the manual. An SE 4cyl/6spd with the Sun n' Sync package is pretty close though.
    Accord: Love our LX, and EX-L 4cyl would be perfect. Exceptional local dealer. Just wonder if I want the "same car" again.
    Mazda6: Nearest dealer is almost an hour away, the model I want is a unicorn ('09 6iGT-manual... no GT manual for '10)
  • maxamillion85maxamillion85 Member Posts: 78
    Sporin, according to some info I've read over on Cars.com the Fusion SE and SEL models will be adding "Apperance pkgs" pretty soon...pretty similar to the pkgs offered on 09 and earlier models. Pricing has not been announced on these pkgs, but content is available.

    Monochrome Appearance Package

    Includes a unique finish on IP spears and center stack, Body Colored Grille, 18" Machined Aluminum w/Painted Pockets, Rear Spoiler, Unique Cloth Front Bucket Seats Leather Wrapped Steering Wheel & Shift Knob

    Appearance Package
    Includes a unique finish on IP spears and center stack, Chrome Grille, 18" Machined Aluminum w/Painted Pockets, Rear Spoiler, Unique Cloth Front Bucket Seats, Leather Wrapped Steering Wheel & Shift Knob

    Pricing should be available sometime in the near future for the trim level pkgs, I'm glad to see true alloy wheels will be available for SE model Fusions as opposed to the fascia covers on SE models now.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    The Grand Marquis/Crown Vic is actually very easy to handle, don't let the size fool you. My mother always thought that way, the car is too big, and drove the smaller accords, until I brought home a 92 Vic that made her 92 Accord look cheap, then I let her drive it. A month later she traded her Accord for a 95 Grand Marquis, that was in 96, and she is still driving it today, with 138K miles on it. The car is very forgiving, has traction control and full ABS, gets 28 MPG on the highway, 21 in city/highway mixed, and has always been dependable for her. The car has plenty of power to get up and go, but not so much power that you would get in trouble, the power to weight ratio is just right for the majority of drivers out there today.

    Oh I forgot to mention, she is 5' 1" tall. My wife is 5' 2" tall, and she learned to drive in a 1985 Grand Marquis, and that is an even larger car with boxy fenders and such.

    I think the reason more cars like the Vic/GM aren't sold is the misconception that the car is too big to handle, when in reality, it is actually easier to handle than most FWD cars. Well that and it does look like a granny car. But ask any cop that drove a Vic and the Impala, and the majority will want the Vic.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Case in point. I had my 4Runner (4WD with RWD) in the shop fixing a hole in my oil pan( ug ). It has mud terrain tires on it, a heavy-duty off-road transmission added, and a bunch of metal for bumpers and sliders and so on. ( read - about 4000-4200lbs dry )

    My rental for the day was a Chevy Cobalt. Tiny thing, front wheel drive.

    2500lbs plus FWD on street tires was twice the effort to steer as a 4200lb 4Runner with mud tires. Easier to handle is a massive understatement.
  • hyundaismokehyundaismoke Member Posts: 3
    I wouldnt call sales to only 4-5 countries in limited quantities mass production exactly. The Sonata Hybrid will be sold pretty much everywhere either as an i40 or a Sonata.
  • hyundaismokehyundaismoke Member Posts: 3
    Well the Sonata according to Hyundai is supposed to be in the Ford Fusion Hybrid Ball Park.

    Any small car using the Hyundai Small car Hybrid system will get close to 48MPG depending on size and weight.

    This is an Article about the Engine Being placed in a KIA Soul.
    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/autoshows/paris/2008/kiasoulhybridnews.html
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Call it what you want. The point is, previous Hyundai hybrids before the new Elantra hybrid have not been available to the general public.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Let's see if I can wake everyone up in here!

    News today came in that Toyota and Mazda are in discussions for Toyota to license hybrid components to Mazda for Mazda Hybrid vehicles. Sources close to the situation report Mazda could have a mass produced hybrid here by 2012-2013. Possibly a Mazda6 Hybrid? That sure would be nice!
  • rdm925rdm925 Member Posts: 46
    I think a Mazda 6, hybrid would be great. Why not use Ford Fusion's tech. If Ford still owned 30 plus % they could do and not wait 2-3 yrs. :shades:
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    HYBRIDS are nice,but just too expensive.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    HYBRIDS are nice,but just too expensive.

    Man ain't that the truth. I just saw an Insight the other day, you know, the lowest priced Hybrid one can buy, and man is that thing tiny. Since it is smaller than the Prius, and appears to have a very close COD design, you would think it would get better MPG rating than the Prius, but it doesn't.

    If The government were really concerned about cap and trade, CO2, etc. you would think they would have better incentives so that people can better afford to buy a Hybrid. The real cost behind any Hybrid is not the drive technology, once a certain number have been sold, the R&D costs to develop the drive train is paid for, but the battery technology is ongoing and that is the biggest cost of the car. It is also the biggest limiter of the number that can be made at any one time, something Mazda will face when it starts up its Hybrid line. They will have to wait for deliveries from the battery manufacturer, and if from the same plant as Toyota and Ford, they will have to take a number and hope for the best.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Ford cannot produce enough hybrid components for themselves, let alone another manufacturer. This was clearly evident with the Tribute Hybrid, which was only available in California.

    Toyota has much greater manufacturing capabilities over in Japan. Now that Mazda is under their own control, I guess that may have opened up the door for the JDM manufacturers to start talking about licensing hybrid technology.
  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    Not sure if this the right thread for this but...

    I am considering a set of the newly introduced Grand Touring, 60,000-mile, all-season Goodrich Advantage T/A tires (205-60R-16-92H). At Costco the set will cost $372 installed. This is a new tire so there is little information about it on the internet so I was wondering if any of you have any information that you wish to share.

    The Costco rep says its a much better tire an improvement over the Traction T/A but I'm skeptical as I've never used that brand before. As a matter of fact I've only used Michelins but at $135 each I wanted to switch to a cheaper tire in these hard economic times but I don't want to regret that decision so any feedback would help.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Last fall I had a set of Michelins put on a suv and a set of Goodrich put on a Tundra. Both from Costco. I've been very satisfied with both. The Goodrich were good this winter in Chicago snow on a two wheel drive p/u. I especially appreciated their grip when cornering and braking. Both tires are pretty quiet on freeway runs but I would have to say the Michelin is quieter.

    Interesting(at least to me it is) note. I had the Michelins put on an Infiniti QX4 last September with 30lbs of nitrogen each. They have not needed one lb of air as of this time. I'm amazed at how the nitrogen stays in the tire. I personally didn't think it was that big of deal and Costco includes the nitrogen "no-charge". Before I considered it somewhat gimmicky and wouldn't have paid $20 or $30 to have it put in. But now that I've had it for almost a year I'm pretty sold on it. I heard it keeps your tires cooler on long runs too which is easier on your tires but I don't know if that has been absolutely proven or not.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    I have a set of 6 Goodrich Commercial T/A's on my F350 dually, and they have good traction and long wear.

    Here is a thing to consider about tires. Car manufacturers put tires on based not on traction or longevity, but based on what MPG's they can obtain. You may see Michelin's on a new car, but don't be surprised when they suck in the rain. We had a 92 Accord brand new, and had to replace the two front tires, which were Michelin's, with different tires because they were awful in wet weather. The tires on my Camry are wearing rather fast, 29.800 miles and they are nearly down to the wear bars.

    Since this is a new line of tires, find out if they are a brand new design, or if they are a redesign of an existing tire, and if a redesign, base the decision off of the reports on the tires it replaced. Also check the ABC and wear ratings, those are actually pretty reliable.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    How anyone can dismiss a Sonata out of hand,just baffles me.Have you owned one?(I don't have one,but leased one in the past)
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    I was told it was because it has it's own forum,but don't all of these cars too?
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    We cannot list anymore than 9 cars here. Sorry 'bout that, but that's how it has always been.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    >I'm amazed at how the nitrogen stays in the tire. I personally didn't think it was that big of deal and Costco includes the nitrogen "no-charge". Before I considered it somewhat gimmicky and wouldn't have paid $20 or $30 to have it put in. But now that I've had it for almost a year I'm pretty sold on it. I heard it keeps your tires cooler on long runs too which is easier on your tires but I don't know if that has been absolutely proven or not.

    I hope people don't really believe nitrogen is able to do all these magical things.

    Since the atmosphere we're breathing is 80% nitrogen, the nitrogen allegedly put in is responsible for great improvements based only on a 20% differential. consider that the machines that separate the nitrogen are not perfect, the air pumped into your tire may only be 90% nitrogen--read the disclaimers on the company's sites selling the nitrogen separators as "money-making machines" to tire stores.

    Also the use of nitrogen rich air was primarily a benefit to truck tires where the carcas is used for 100s of thousands of miles with recapping. I don't know anyone running their auto tires that long.

    If your tires go a long time without needing air: it's because the seal at the rim is good, the inner liner of the tire is a high quality sealer, and because the enviromental temperature went up from the original fill till the time you're measuring pressure now. (Pressure increases approximately 1 pound/10 deg Fahrenheit increase in temp.)

    As for keeping tires cooler, does anyone thing the heat transfer difference between 80% nitrogen/oxygen/CO2 and 95% nitrogen is noticeably different? Plus where does the heat get transferred to? Most heat will go out of the tire through the rubber to the atmosphere--not through the air within the tire to the rim. Most flexing occurs in the thick rubber layer with steel/polyester/nylon layers called the tread. The thinner sidewalls are designed to flex and produce less heat doing so.

    If the tire store actually used a 100% nitrogen tank souce like a hospital uses, then the claims might be considered; but they use a separator in the store which deteriorates in efficiency as used.

    The claims in some of the websites for sellers of nitrogen separators is faulty. Sometimes they trip on themselves claiming one thing in one paragraph as a benefit and the opposite somewhere else as a benefit. I found that when I spent some time last fall browsing sites. http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2009/06/23/466920.html

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    Since this is a new line of tires, find out if they are a brand new design, or if they are a redesign of an existing tire, and if a redesign, base the decision off of the reports on the tires it replaced. Also check the ABC and wear ratings, those are actually pretty reliable.

    acdii, the Advantage T/A is a brand new design and everywhere I've checked they say "no reviews yet". By the way, the tire is for my Toyota Avalon and I am a moderate driver who prefer driving comfort and quiet over spirited driving.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Appreciate the science lesson but have read all those things before. After driving for 40 years and having hundreds of different tires all I can say that I have never had occassion to go anywhere near this long(9 months) without having to add air to the tires. Maybe it is a great tire/great seal more than the nitrogen, I don't really know. It may be just a coincidence that this happened with full nitrogen. My Tundra with Goodrich and the nitrogen has also not needed air added for about 6 months so I guess those must be a great tire/great seal as well. I do check the air pressure fairly often so air temperture really isn't a player.

    I have a 07 Mazda6 as well with plain air and have added air to those tires a couple of times a year since new. Usually about 4-5 low when I add. Those are Michelins. I added air to the two vehicles "in question" when they were running the OEM tires quite often as well. So you can see the pleasant surprise I had with the nitrogen. If in fact as you say the nitrogen doesn't add anything to the equation, they should pay the Costco tire installers more for doing such a great job.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, pretty soon we may have a slot open up (Aura). ;) Then cars like the Legacy and Optima can duke it out over the open slot.
  • ergsumergsum Member Posts: 146
    Backy, you always see the silver lining!
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    Since I have filled my tires with nitrogen,I have had no loss of pressure.That is a fact in my case. :blush:
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    I feel like my car is the victim of prejudice :(
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yeah, but have your tires lost pressure?
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    Not so that I noticed.In my Chrysler I used to have to add air constantly,but not since I added the Nitrogen.For me it's been worth it.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    >I wonder how this works? Here is a diagram of molecules found in "air". These are by NASA and are supposedly to scale. Note that the oxygen molecule is larger than the nitrogen molecule. In every picture. I would think the nitrogen, being a smaller molecule, would have an easier time escaping from a microscopic hole/leak in the tire/wheel assembly than would oxygen (or other more complex compounds found in regular air).

    The oxygen and nitrogen shown are actually atoms; they exist in diatomic form for both. The relative sizes of the diatomic forms may be different than the monoatomic forms imply.

    I believe that the quality of the materials of the tire, the seal at the bead, and the valve stem have more to do with the unit not seeping air out (which is 80% nitrogen, remember?) than does the extra 15% or so nitrogen. It makes nice advertising and is sort of like the 30-minute informercials.

    I used to have X-Ones on my car and it lost practically no air. I read later that the X-One was used by Consumer Reports as the best quality tire for a long term test on how much air pressure loss occurs. They pumped up tires and then waited months to check the remaining pressures.

    Since this topic is off topic for mid-sized cars, I was not going to respond or post again. There's another forum referenced in an earlier post about nitrogen in tires.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Your picture is too big. Could you reduce it?
  • 2010sel2010sel Member Posts: 4
    No, it is on the web. Not my picture. Just right click it and click "view image". Or you could just click on the link I supplied. Sorry about the size. I had no way of knowing this message board would not display it correctly.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    The size of your picture was making the rest of the messages on the page unreadable so it had to be removed. If you post it to your CarSpace page and then use the automatically generated code from there to display it, it will render correctly.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    The subject of the discussion is all midsize mainstream sedans. The fact that we have to limit the categories to a certain number does not mean that the others which fit the category, such as the Optima, cannot be discussed. So please feel free. :)
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    Pat, you are a GREAT host,but I have to tell you that at least once when I tried to discuss my blessed Optima,I was kinda told that Optima has it's own section.No biggie,I absolutely love this site no matter if the Optima is a mid size or not.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    It seems to be just about as midsize as a car gets, mickeyrom.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    really, your Kia Optima is welcome discussion material here. ;)

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    Mickeyrom, were you told that by a host or by just any old poster. My Sonata is an '05 and it that year the Optima & Sonata were more like twins than cousins.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    The Optima is welcome here and to bhmr59 who asked if a host told you that, the answer is absolutely not. I do not recall the post. If you can email a link to me, I'll check it out. If you see something like that in the future, email me when you see it. Meanwhile, let's get back to the cars here. Thanks!
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    becaue it's true, the Kia Optima is about as midsize as one can get, eh? I had my eye on it but decided to buy a compact car instead. But the Kia Optima is likely the midsizer I would pick up if I wanted one.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    It's not worth researching who said it.It's enough that I am free to discuss my Optima in comparison to other comparable cars.Thank you Pat.
  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    Update

    I pulled the trigger and bought the Goodrich Advantage T/A tires at Costco but I was duped. First, I bought a $50 membership card with the intention of getting the $70 promotional discount. The tires were not in stock so I had to wait for 5 days, however, when they presented the bill it did not include the discount claiming that the discount was on selected Goodrich tires which did not include the Advantage T/A.

    Second, when I returned to have the lug nuts re-torqued I asked the service manager how did the Advantage T/A stack up against the Michelin MXV4. He said the Michelin was a superior tire. I told him how could he say that when to me there was no difference in handling and NHV. He said to wait until January and I will see the difference and that the Advantage T/A is no better than the Track T/A which it replaced.

    So far I have driven 118 mostly highway miles on smooth and rough surfaces. The car felt competent on all surfaces but the noise level was a little more noticeable than the Michelin’s on the rough surface. By the way, the tires were inflated with nitrogen at no extra charge but in terms of handling I can’t tell the difference between nitrogen and regular air. Final price for the set of 4 tires including tax, installation, warranty and disposal, $442.36.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The ad clearly says "selected" BF Goodrich tires. Did you ask whether the discount applied to the ones you ordered or did you just make a bad assumption? I've never known Costco to be dishonest about anything.

    Nitrogen does NOTHING for handling. The supposed benefits are better air pressure retention and less moisture.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    CR's September issue has tests of the 2010 Fusion, including the FFH, and the tweaked-for-2009 Optima. They rated the Fusion highly, especially the FFH which got 84 points, and the Fusion is now CR's top-rated mid-sized car from a domestic manufacturer, i.e. it tops the Malibu, Sebring, and Avenger. However, they also liked the Optima and ranked the LX with the I4 engine in a points-tie for 4th in the under-$25k class, behind the Altima 2.5S, Jetta TDI, and Accord LX-P (and tied with the Camry and Sonata GLS). They did not rank the Optima V6 very high and noted the I4 is a much better choice on the Optima, since there isn't much difference in power or performance.

    mickeyrom, I know you'll have something to say about this. ;)
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    Ha ha ha Backy...what can I say,I know that Optima is a good car, and I agree that the FFH is outstanding.Of course I don't own one,but I have read nothing but good things about it.If I could afford one,I would love to own one.
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  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I was surprised the Optima LX I4 ranked ahead of the Fusion I4 (SE). I can't think of many areas where the Optima is better than the Fusion--maybe rear seat comfort, interior quality (although the 2010 Fusion is improved there), some controls/displays, and that's about it. The Fusion has superior fuel economy, superior crash test scores (but not by much), and is at least equal if not better than the Optima in ride/handling quality. Both have been reliable (although that doesn't enter into the CR points scheme), and both have a good dollop of standard safety equipment including six airbags, ABS, and ESC. I prefer the looks of the Optima, but CR doesn't take styling into account in their ratings (or junk like "gotta have it"). The Optima does have a longer warranty, and that may count for something in CR's scoring.
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