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And I mean no offense to the Fusion on that. I think it's an excellent car. But c'mon, it's a refresh, with the hybrid option added. But if you look at the other 2010 models, I guess there isn't anything that stands out. The new Golf has little new under the skin (and even the skin is familiar), the new Prius is not MT's cup of tea and isn't that much better than the old one, the new Legacy is a nice car, but pales in "significance" (big criterion for MT COTY) to the Fusion in the marketplace, and so on.
Some years there's lots of great new cars, other years... meh.
i had an '04 focus 2.3 with a stick and it was very smooth.
very rarely could any kind of shaking be detected.
I'm not saying that modern 4-bangers are bad; they're perfectly adequate. But my personal standards for NVH are high. I guess I've been spoiled. Anyway, why should I settle for adequate when I can afford better?
Anyway, I don't mind a little growl when I floor it. Reminds me I am driving a car.
I like to buy domestic - that's why I did not buy a Mexican-built, and only 50% NA parts car. The Camry, Accord, and Malibu are much more USA than the Fulan.
I will not go and try to bash another car, because we all have our opinions, and that's okay. I had a Fusion rental a year ago, and let's just say it is a great car, but the Camry still is my choice.
Same here and I floor my 4 cyl fairly often, probably a few times per week on average and I also generally tend to accelerate much faster than most other drivers, when I can (4000-5000 rpm on a regular basis does not frighten me). Mine is a comparitively weak 150 HP or so in a prior generation Mazda6, but even with that I have rarely felt like I wanted more power (the rare case would typically be when 4 or 5 adults are in the car).
There is some vibration when stopped, that I'd rather not have...but it is not enough to make me willing to go to a V6. For me the vibration would not be an issue at all had I chosen to get a manual, as when I put it in neutral while stopped, it is smooth enough for me. Designing the automatic to shift to neutral when stopped would take care of it too.
if you read what I said carefully though, I've noticed over the years that the car manufactures have been improving this; for instance, I had a 2009 Altima 4cyl as a loaner car and could not believe how silent and quiet it was at idle and in brisk acceleration from a stop; the 4cyl in the Altima was even quieter than the I4 in an 2009 Acura TSX
about a year ago I had a Honda Accord 4cyl and felt it sounded extremely noisy at start-up/idle and in brisk acceleration
now that is not to say that every 6 cyl engine is quieter and more refined than every 4 cyl; for instance, I have a 2010 Maxima with the 290hp V6 and it is noticeable loud at start-up and idle and during brisk acceleration because of how much hp and torque there is under the hood, plus the CVT doesn't help in regards to quietness during acceleration; I would consider the altima I4 to be quieter and the maxima V6; the V6 engines in the infiniti lines are also noticeable noisy because they have over 300 hp
on the other hand, my 2008 TL V6 is very quiet/refined at start-up and idle compared to my Maxima; I also test drove a 2010 Camry V6 and that engine was similarily quiet and refined as my TL's engine; most V6 engines in the 230-270hp range are pretty quiet and refined compared to V6s with 290hp+
The point I was trying to make is that on avg most 6 cyl engines are quieter/more refined then 4 cyl engines at start-up and idle
No, obviously I didn't, probably because I am a total idiot with an IQ of 12. :P
I can tell you that I have re-started (as in, while they were running) my four-cylinder cars a few times over the years, because they were so quiet and vibration free I couldn't tell they were running. Maybe besides my reading problem I have a hearing problem, too, but I haven't found I4s to be noticeably noisier at start-up and idle than the V6s I've owned and driven over 35 years.
BTW... your handle is very appropriate.
I swear I think people like you are on here only to argue; you act like I was trying to put down 4 cyl engines and I wasn't, I was just commenting on what someone else was stating in the great 4 vs 6 cyl debate; each has their pros and cons, I prefer 6 cyl engines but if I really like a car and it only came with a 4 cyl I would still get it
The most quiet engines I have ever had over the years are 6 cyl; you say 4 cyl, but you don't have to come on here questioning my experience because you think you've seen different; I gave concrete examples of my reasoning; if you think you are correct give your examples
i think part of the problem was that it was so smooth, they couldn't learn to shift by ear like i did when i learned on a vw bug.
Not at all. I was stating my opinion on the relative noise from 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder engines, as you were. We clearly have differing opinions on this subject. But I can do without the personal putdowns, i.e. that I have some kind of reading comprehension problem. Was that because I happen to have a different opinion than you do? Am I "arguing" because I don't happen to agree with your opinion? Do you expect everyone on these forums to agree with everything you say?
I am not questioning your experience. I was relating my own experience wrt this subject, which appears to be different from yours. You yourself said different engines act differently re noise. Maybe it's just that I've owned different vehicles than you have, or that what you consider "noisy startup and idle" is different than what I think.
And if you had read my post carefully enough , you would see that I did provide examples (remember re-starting the cars?). Do you want makes and models, too? Not sure I can remember all of them, because they include 200+ rentals over the years, but in one embarrassing case, I left the engine running on my 1976 Corolla DLX 2-door coupe in a parking lot, at night, because it was so quiet at idle I didn't realize it was running. Never did that again, but I have re-started a few cars as I noted.
An opinion is neither right nor wrong--it's an opinion. You can agree or disagree with an opinion. If you have a different opinion than someone else, it doesn't make you "correct" and the other person "incorrect", or vice-versa.
The noisiest on acceleration, in recent times at least, would have to be the 3.8L V6 in our 1997 Windstar.
I don't understand the claims that a V6 is somehow inherently more balanced than an I4. Why would the 4 be unbalanced? You would have one cyl firing for every 1/2 rev is that really so different from one every 1/3 rev for a V6? Doesn't the shorter crankshaft of the V design also result in more potential vibration problems vs. an I design?
(OT drift: You should see the scrapes on my wife's passenger doors from the careless people where she works. Not just dings, although she has those as well, but out and out scrapes where a door was obviously slammed into her car. The attacker's car was red; that's how hard they "dinged" it. Amazing there's no real dent. And my car was new for all of three weeks before it was dinged. People just don't pay attention and don't care about other people's property at all. Also, the parking lot where I work has narrow spaces which doesn't help.)
As to NVH work outside of the engine, that's true and such work would apply to both 4 & 6 cylinder models. Since it applies to both I'm not sure how it factors into the equation. Are manufacturers really adding more sound deadening material to V6 models to tone them down?
My hearing is very sensitive to background noise. Hums from machinery, conversations at other tables at restaurants, radios in the background, etc. are all things that intrude my ability to focus on the task at hand or concentrate on a conversation. The part of my body's auditory system that filters/mutes background noise doesn't do as good a job as I would like. So I need quiet. I need a quiet engine as well as quiet tires. Especially when someone in the car *cough* wife *cough* isn't so quiet.
That Hyundai is dropping the V6 certainly has jump started this discussion. I don't think the Midsize Sedans thread has been this active for a while.
There are other factors too. Larger piston mass and longer connecting rods can both contribute to perceived roughness. This is why, for example, the VQ30 V6 from the Maxima of ten years ago is smoother than the VQ35 in today's Altima or the VQ37 in the 370Z, though they are all derived from the same basic design.
you can get a v8, but they are at the top end (M3, IS-F).
a lot of v6's (and 4's) have things like active engine mounts to cut down on NVH.
i agree with a prior post that a lot of larger 4's have balance shafts, to help out with the same.
"Due to the odd number of cylinders in each bank, V6 designs are inherently unbalanced, regardless of their V-angle" and
"An inline six engine is in perfect primary and secondary mechanical balance, which can be achieved without using a balance shaft" and
"An inline four cylinder or V6 engine without a balance shaft will experience secondary dynamic imbalance, resulting in engine vibration." and
"An even-firing inline-four engine is in primary balance"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight-six_engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V6_engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inline-four_engine
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I don't think the Focus will be re-designed before 2012. The current version bowed in 2008 so 2013 is more likely. It might be mid-size by then. Similar in size to the Elantra which is a legit mid-size. Who knows: maybe the 2013 Focus will be slotted to replace the Lincoln Town Car!
Speaking of mid-size sedans: GM is stating the Cruze will be one of the largest cars in it's class. Maybe we can work the Cruze into this discussion too. :P
On topic: Congrats to Ford for the MTCOTY for 2010. It's in my short list to replace my Mazda6 later this spring. A Sport with the 3.5L, no less.
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Wow! That is a quick redesign! It would be even more amazing if they were able to successfully launch it as a 2011 N. American model in 2010. That would leave the current generation Focus as a "3 year model".
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Now back to your regularly scheduled program on mid-size sedans,,,,
Now, to edge things back toward midsize sedans--there are strong indications that the next-generation Fusion will be based on the Mondeo. . .
to subject of I4 versus V6 it will be a personnel opinion, and that is a given, it will differ w/ that said I would like to put my thoughts in the ring. I also have been driving
a long time and many different types of engines from old time I6's and V8's and I4's.
All were fairly efficient but my last I4 was a 2.4L (at the time 150hp), climbing an
overpass near home it would barely increase in speed w/ the pedal to medal. At the
same time my wife has a 2002 Mazda 626 V6 2.5L 165hp.(we still have them). Both
are about as noisy as the other, the I4 exhaust noise the V6 induction noise, the V6 being much smoother. The big differences is acceleration, "not even close" for
15hp difference. The V6 will eat the I4 up hands down. Now on another note I also
have a 2009 Sonata 3.3L V6 249hp, it will make the Mazda look and feel like the
I4 in comparison. I know the new version I4 has improved according to reports, I have no experience as to the new I4 only hear say. In the sixty's the I4 was a rare
thing to find it was either a I6 or V8 and there was no comparison in performance.
This new version SEV6 has special hydraulic drive trane mounts and it is the smoothest and the quietest car I have ever drove, bar none.
Where I have a question is if the nowadays I4 is "suffecient" and get very good MPG why are they modifing it to try and keep up w/ the Hp rating of the V6?? Now
if the MPG also goes up O.K. that may justify it, but if it will or even can remains to be seen. Take the VW Passat it has a 200hp turbo I4 but it's mpg is not rated any
better than my V6 ( check EPA rating).
To each his own, I came from the age of more hp the better, it's hard to kick the
habit. You'll have a wonderfull day!!
Anyway, isn't one difference that the turbo has much more torque at low rpm and a flatter torque curve? How often would you actually be at 6000 rpm, where the Sonata has that 249 HP? Meanwhile the Passat torque peak is at only 1800 rpm and even the 200 HP peak is at 5100.
edit: note that we do know that at 4500 rpm the Sonata V6 has "only" 196 HP, based on the peak torque figure (229 ft-lbs @ 4500 rpm).
I don't think it is a matter of "keeping up" with the horsepower ratings of a V6 any more than a V6 keeps up with a V8, a V8 with a turbo V8 or V12, etc.
R&D helps engines become more efficient power producers - customers expect higher outputs with a new generation; when they don't get that, they balk (anyone remember the hoopla about the TSX losing 4 horses even though usable torque went up?). Cars get bigger, safer, so their engines increase in output to keep up. My 166-horse Accord will outrun a brand-new 190-horse Accord to 60 miles an hour according to Car and Driver (8.1 vs. 8.2 seconds for automatic models, comparing a 2007 LX-SE to a 2008 EX). The increased output in that car isn't to "challenge a V6" in power, but rather to keep up speed with the increased size and weight of the car. Along with increased power from these four-cylinder engines are modern transmissions with 5 or 6 forward speeds getting the most from these engines, so you aren't stuck out of the peak powerband like you might get caught in a 4-speed.
Is roughly eight seconds to sixty miles an hour not "sufficient?" Its plenty powerful to me with a carload of people.
if the MPG also goes up O.K. that may justify it, but if it will or even can remains to be seen.
This may interest you, it seems relevant to your comment: more power plus greater fuel economy in the 2011 Sonata 2.4L DI:
link title
So, why more power? My guess is, because cars keep getting larger and heavier (more safety equipment, and just the general up-sizing of cars). Also because Americans (in particular) like powerful, fast cars. More power with better fuel economy... that is a nice combo. It would be interesting to know if greater FE improvements could be had by holding the power down, e.g. what FE would a 2.0L, 175 hp DI engine make? But torque is part of the equation, too--as you found out in that overpass situation.
The Kia Forte and next gen Optima along with the '11 Sonata can do the same thing. If Hyundai keeps rolling, they will continue to gain market share and put a couple companies out of business that should have been out of business last year anyway.
i had a 4cyl ford focus stick that was rated @33 mpg highway.
took it from ct to ohio to michigan and back. averaged 38+ mpg.
could put the cruise on 70 and take the largest hills in PA with no problem.
epa ratings get you in the ball park, but that's it.
we have an 04 escape 200 hp v6 with part time 4wd, it was rated @ 18/23 under the old system. lifetime average over 75k is a bit over 19.
we also have an 09 escape 240 hp v6 with full time awd. rated at 17/24 under the new system. average mpg over 8k so far 22+.
Thing is, the top five are functionally interchangeable in many classes. They're so close to one another that there's no single car that's clearly "best in class" anymore--in the midsize sedan class, or in the others you mention. I'd say "five way tie for first."
Hyundai-Kia in the 2010's will be similar to Toyota-Lexus of the 1980's. Look out because they are a strong company in tune with the times.
Eh, it needs something more than a 4-speed with the old 2.0L Beta to be on my list. It'd be peppier and more economical. I'm spoiled by 5-speeds!
I'm afraid I'm not helping with the topic of midsizers here, though. Let's see...
I drove my Accord today; I love how quickly the heat gets warm on cold days (that makes this post back on topic, right?). My old Honda never has been quick to blow warm air.
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I realize the Elantra doesn't fit into this thread directly, but it is a surprisingly roomy mid-size sedan.
The 2011 Hyundai Sonata and Kia Optima are set to displace the Lexus ES350 and Toyota Camry next year. It will be fun to watch.
And speaking of the Elantra, a 2011 model, looking as gorgeous as the new Sonata, is set for launch next year. Look for more transmission options, mid-size room and 40mpg highway. :P
2011 Elantra
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Toyota and Honda are scared $htless of Hyundai. 5 five years ago, they didn't take the Koreans seriously. Big mistake.
While Toyota/Honda were asleep at the wheel, Hyundai was, and is, working 24/7. The momentum has been building for a few years and Hyundai is ready to bust through the dam next year with new models aimed at Gen X, Gen Y, and Baby Boomers. They have hit the target.
You are correct that it won't happen quickly (in 2010) but it won't take 5-7 years either. 3 or 4 years from now automakers around the world, those still standing, will be punch drunk and trying to figure out what hit them.
I have that much confidence in Hyundai. You will too if you give them a chance to win your business next year.