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2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Why would Honda get rid of a class-leading 278 HP V6 engine? What other mid-size sedans come with that much power?
It also gets pretty good mileage, and for the CVT haters (although I hate CVT's I don't hate Honda's after a test-drive), it has the fantastic 6-speed automatic. It's like a low-cost Acura TL FWD.
I think if your buying the Accord as a family mid-size sedan, you'd be wise to take the extra 90 HP and go with the V6 for not that much more money. If your buying the Accord for the driving experience, perhaps an argument could be made for the lighter smaller engine allowing better handling.
Honda will follow Hyundai and Ford and drop the V6 because of fuel economy.
The CAFE regs escalate the mpg ratings rapidly in the near future so car makers really don't have a choice.
Hybrids,
Diesels,
Hybrid Diesels and
even three cylinders are going to sweep up V6s like dinosaur dust.
The CAFE regs escalate the mpg ratings rapidly in the near future so car makers really don't have a choice.
Oh I don't think so....
Here are the current EPA Estimates and power output for the Accord, Fusion and Sonata higher output engines...
Accord V6: 22/34/25 (278hp/252tq) 0-60mph 5.6 sec
Fusion 2.0T: 23/33/26 (237hp/270tq) 0-60mph 6.9 sec
Sonata 2.0T: 23/34/26 (274hp/269tq) 0-60mph 6.5 sec
I see no reason why CAFE would force Honda to shed the V6 in the Accord. Makes absolutely no sense based on your claims that they are not fuel-efficient.
Neither Hyundai or Ford have shown any advantage of going smaller and boosting their engines. If anything, the newer Ford EcoBoost vehicles have been a disappointment in the real word. Having a family member who owns an EcoBoost Ford, I am reminded daily how terrible it is.
That said, nobody is better than Honda at powertrains.
I do think in some cars, they are near the top of the class, but not all.
They will need to nearly double fuel economy to 54.5 miles per gallon by 2025 to meet the new CAFÉ standards. That will accelerate the use of existing engine technologies and create more demand for hybrids, particularly start-stop systems that use small batteries. Automakers agreed to the measures, and there will be an interim assessment in 2017 to review both the cost and effectiveness of different approaches.
Already, automakers are swapping out six-cylinder engines with four-cylinders equipped with a turbo or super charger, which improves economy while maintaining horsepower.
Traditional hybrids, where a battery powers a car part of the time, are poised for greater use.
Mild hybrids, which car makers have started introducing in the U.S., are most compelling because the incremental cost delivers a few percent improvement in efficiency, say experts.
The new CAFE standards also include incentives for automakers to advance specific technologies, including electric vehicles, plug-in hybrids, and fuel cell vehicles. You can bet Honda Corp will turn to these technologies and abandon their excellent V6 to comply with the stringent new CAFÉ standards which they have already agreed to.
Natural gas vehicles, which are made and sold in the U.S by Honda, also qualify for these credits.
LOL. I think Honda makes great engines - although they seem to be having problems with the 6 cyl VCMs burning oil - but they have never really made a great transmission. Historically, this has been the weak point in Hondas - the transmissions. The CVT in the civic hybrid was nothing short of a disaster. There is no shortage of current 6 speed transmission issues either. Google it. They've had recalls and class action suits on their transmissions. I recently read a blog of a guy who bought a 2013 6 cyl accord and had the transmission replaced very shortly after buying it. He was upset about having a rebuilt transmission in a new car. I guess he should have read the odyssey blogs before buying a Honda 6 speed.
Nissan has had CVT issues. Ford and VW have had DSG issues. Chrysler has had terrible problems (new trans may finally be better). Pretty much everybody that sells a lot of cars has had some bad transmissions.
In other words, the 54.5 mpg CAFE translates into c. 39 mpg combined on the window sticker. And that, of course, is an average. Some cars and trucks will get higher, others will be lower. And various "credits" mean that the actual number might be as low as 36 mpg.
In other words, the 54.5 number is a kind of "bureaucratic lie."
What CAFE translates to in terms of midsize cars is this:
2017: c. 27 mpg combined EPA window sticker
2021: c. 32 mpg combined
2025: c. 38 mpg combined.
My 2013 Honda Accord CVT is rated 30 mpg combined, and so it is already beyond the standard for 2017.
The CAFE standards, in other words, are much less strict than the false "54.5" mpg number would lead you to believe
If Honda slimmed down its big 3.5 V-6 to 3 liters, for instance, I see no reason why the next generation Honda Accord, which is due for model year 2018, couldn't still have a V-6.
But the Accord due 9 years from now, for model year 2023, isn't likely to have a V-6 imho. But time will tell.
"2. MPG Confusion Will Continue. CAFE's goal is to achieve a 2025 fleet average fuel economy of 49.6 mpg (as expressed by NHTSA). But the test system enshrined by Congress in 1976 cannot adequately capture the benefits of certain fuel-saving and CO2-reducing technologies. To paper this over, regulators established a system of credits, and the use of such credits is what boosts the EPA's CAFE number to the equivalent of 54.5 mpg — the figure usually cited by the administration, members of Congress and the media. This higher figure is what is required to meet the EPA's requirement that tailpipe emissions of CO2 drop 35 percent to 163 grams per mile by 2025.
The congressionally mandated CAFE tests do more than mask the benefits of certain modern technologies. They're also wildly optimistic. The EPA, NHTSA and everyone in the industry knows this, so a more modern system of tests has been put in place to figure fuel-economy ratings for new-vehicle window stickers. That program is not subject to CAFE's congressional mandate. The 54.5-mpg figure equals about 36 mpg in the EPA's current window-sticker measuring system. So despite what the politicians and headlines say, forget the idea that all cars and trucks will be delivering somewhere around 54.5 mpg 13 years from now. That simply won't happen."
We'll still have trucks and SUVs with MPG ratings in the teens and more hybrids and EVs will be in the fifties and above.
But auto makers will have to meet the CAFE average.
That'll be easier for Honda and Hyundai as the former doesn't offer 'real' pickups or large SUVs and the latter sells no pickups at all in the US.
CAFE more or less gives big trucks a "pass" and only has relatively small improvements there. As you'll see in that Edmunds article, vehicles are ranked by class.
It's all very complicated (900 pages!), but what it seems to boil down to is that the standards are slightly easier for Ford, GM, and Chrysler, because they sell large pickups, and slightly harder for everyone else.
That's why VW protested the standards and didn't join the voluntary agreement for this.
For instance, small cars like Corolla and Civic are encouraged to move their EPA sticker combined mpg from 27 in 2012 to 43 by 2025. That's a c.60% increase
Trucks, like the F-150, are encouraged to move their EPA sticker from 17 in 2012 to 23 by 2025, which is an increase of 35%. And most of that increase is focused in the last few years. Here's how it plays out for large trucks:
2012: 17
2014: 18
2016: 19
and then it stays at 19 for several years
2022: 20
2023: 21
2024: 22
2025: 23
So between 2012 and 2021, a period of 10 years, CAFE only goes up by 2 mpg for F-150s. That's an increase of 12% for a whole decade.
Between 2012 and 2021, a Corolla is encouraged to go from 27 to 37, which is an increase of 37%.
Again, I actually mostly agree with this loophole for big trucks, but it is definitely something of a gap in CAFE.
The current F-150 with the 3.5 Ecoboost that has 360hp and 420lb of torque gets 18mpg.
You did imply CAFE was going to force Honda to drop the V6. This is what you said...The CAFE regs escalate the mpg ratings rapidly in the near future so car makers really don't have a choice
If car makes don't "have a choice", then they are being forced to make changes. Yes, agreeing to better fuel efficiency regulations does not mean they are being forced to make smaller motors. It just means automakers have agreed to find ways to increase fuel economy. If manufacturers want to go small and add turbo's, then fine. Personally, I don't think that's the way to go.
Already, automakers are swapping out six-cylinder engines with four-cylinders equipped with a turbo or super charger, which improves economy while maintaining horsepower
Again, you said this.....Honda will follow Hyundai and Ford and drop the V6 because of fuel economy
The Accord V6 is not at a power deficit to any boosted I4 engine, and gets the same economy as well. Automakers are swapping out V6s because they have not found a way to maintain economy and power. Honda clearly has.
Big trucks are the biggest offenders when it comes to pollution and using up our oil supply - why give them a pass?
I have no problem with farm and commercially registered vehicles getting an exemption, but why should my neighbor who commutes in a suburban get a pass?
I do look forward to the higher mpg that the cars will get. It would be nice to reduce fuel expenses.
While early previews indicate the only engine offered - a 4 cylinder - isn't quite up to the fuel efficiency of the class leading Sonata and Camry 4s, the large 18.5 gallon fuel tank will give this beauty a range comparable to the Sonata hybrids (700 miles) .
Glad Chevy finally 'got it right.'
Neither the Sonata or the Camry lead the way with fuel efficiency in this class. The Accord, Altima and Mazda6 all get better city, highway and combined fuel economy.
Are you instead talking about the hybrid Malibu? In that case, the Mazda6, Altima and Accord get better mileage than that, without any electronic motor assistance.
With how competitive this segment is and the quality of the top contenders, I don't see the Malibu selling much better than it currently does.
While mid sized hybrid sedans are becoming more and more numerous as auto makers begin to deal with the stringent new CAFÉ regs, hybrida are virtually absent from the large sedans.
While a 305 hp, 3.6-liter V6 is available for the new, top rated Chevy Impala, GM is also offering a 182-hp, 2.4-liter four-cylinder hybrid and a 195-hp, 2.5-liter four-cylinder as the cars hit the showrooms. This car will give the class leading Avalon, which also has a hybrid power train, a run for the money but GM’s hybrids still have a way to go to compete with the gasoline-electric leaders, Toyota, Hyundai, and Ford.
There's a lot of politics related to oil supply.
It's almost like saying; my neighbor purchased an expensive engagement ring, due to the limited supply its driving up costs for my engagement ring!
Sort of...
De Beers, OPEC...you'll get the shaft no matter what you buy
You and I have been around here a long time!
Have you ever run across Peter Brigham?
His dad was a dentist from Birmingham who later designed and built two ski resorts; Sugar Mt. in NC and Snowshoe in West Virginia.
Pete was the first Ski Patrol Director at Snowshoe where I worked as a ski instructor for two years back in the 80s.
He's been back in B'ham for 'bout 15 years.
29 miles round trip. I have a mile long uphill section a mile from when I leave my house that I drive in 5th gear, so it's not like I'm trying maximize fuel mileage.
I think there is a technique to driving these cars. Maybe similar to pulse and glide, the same way I drive a stick.
Op-Ed: Was The 2012 Camry A Stealth Failure?
By J.Emerson on August 8, 2013
" 0% financing for 60 months. Up to $2,000 in dealer rebates, most of which winds up going into customers’ pockets. Rental lines bulging with high-trim sedans as dealers desperately attempt to shovel away product and make room for truckloads of new arrivals. Savvy shoppers are shaving three, four, and even five grand off of MSRP as average transaction prices land in the basement for the class. Despite massive inflows of manufacturer cash, sales volume stagnates and declines as competitors grab more and more market share. All in merely the second model year of Toyota’s marquee product, a legendary nameplate with a (supposedly) loyal customer base and years of carefully-crafted reputation. What, pray tell, is going on here?..."
2013 Honda Accord
2014 Mazda6
2013 Ford Fusion
2013 VW Passat
2013 Kia Optima
2013 Nissan Altima
2013 Hyundai Sonata
... all better cars than the Camry, IMO. Heck, maybe even the Malibu is a better car than the Camry!
And we all know Toyota sells lots of Camrys to fleets, to keep the sales numbers up there.
Google, and many respected Universities sponsored by heavyweights in the industry have been driving around the desert since 2004, developing the technology. (Darpa Grand Challenge)
In 2007, a Volkswagen Passat developed by Stanford University came in 2nd place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA_Grand_Challenge
I would much rather have even a cheap set of alloys, and some inexpensive but useful fog lights before "pining' for chunks of ploakstic.
I recently started researching just what makes the Toyota Camry (and Corolla) so reliable. I found Toyota mechanics that said it is mainly the owner, and his willingness to perform scheduled maintenance.
There may be some truth to that, but I would have to mention my 2000 accord. At 1k miles I converted to synthetic oil and changed it every 5k with a WIX filter. I flushed the cooling system annually (have done so on every car I've ever owned). I flushed the power steering fluid every 2 years. I changed spark plugs every 50k (at 50 and 100k) (with 100k iridiums). I used a K&N filter and cleaned it annually. Did more than the scheduled maintenance on everything but the transmission. Why did I not do the transmission? By 75k miles I had the original and 3 rebuilt transmission in the car - I never got to the mileage where I could flush it.
Sounds very diligent...too bad about the K&N air filter though...I really appreciate reading that little tidbit of info in an ad for a used vehicle or bike I am considering. As soon as I see K&N (air filter) (or any other aftermarket none OEM type performance enhancing air filter, I quickly can stroke that car off my list. Why people use these filters (that work by letting more air....hence dirt, through) for street use, is beyond me. Sometimes the effect they have on tuning due to non OEM air intake flow, can actually decrease performance throughout the rev range that most consumers find themselves in in normal day to day driving. I guess if you never do gravel roads, never drive where they use salt and sand on the roads in the winter, never drive on roads near beaches where the sand is blown inland etc etc and stick to slow speeds downtown in big cities with lots of pavement and few construction zones {ya right}, then they might filter adequately. Ironically, after they have been installed for awhile, they actually start to filter dirt a little better because the dirt has started to clog them. But of course that whole scene doesn't address how the air box shape and intentioned intake pattern of air gets changed erratically by default, or the fact that in order for it to get to that stage, a lot of dirt got sucked into the engine first. This residue dirt can often be found on the 'clean side' of air boxes in some applications where blowby fumes help it stick to the airbox walls.
You got a lemon. It happens, even to Toyota. Here is an excerpt from Camry forums about a lurching and downshifting problem on 2011 four cylinder models. Also, there is no dipstick!!
"my problem is the downshifting so seems it would not help this situation at all
wish they would just "come clean" and admit they have a design issue
and fix it
I don't like the fact that we cannot check our transmission fluid (no dipstick).
I've used K&N filters since the 70s with no problems. I've given many of them as presents and never had anyone mention a problem. You either love them or hate them. We seem to be on opposite ends of the spectrum on that.
As to getting a lemon in my accord... I don't think so. I know many people in the repair business and they all tell me that the biggest problem in Hondas is that they use Honda transmissions. Aside from transmissions, the only "common" problem is front motor mounts in the 4 cyl (I had that replaced, too).
I sorta knew that I might get a reply along those lines. I've seen it before..
I'm happy for you but do wonder about the rest of the history on those vehicles once you've moved on?
I guess it really depends on how many miles you do and how long you keep your cars. Besides, some people change their oil often enough that perhaps it doesn't get low enough from engine wear burning it, to be an issue between changes. Of course the gradual diminished compression from premature engine wear and reduced performance and fuel economy may or may not be noticed by everyone.
What you won't find I can assure you, is anyone who puts unusually high miles on their vehicles (like heavy truck owners) or others when measured in hours (like road building excavators etc) won't use a so-called performance type of air filter. It is OEM for them, and if anything pre-filters are installed for extra tough applications.
My guess, however, is that the expense of such systems will make them only available for very high end vehicles like a Lexus or Mercedes Benz. The might offer a special "Google Lexus LS360 Hybrid" or something for $150,000. Only a few dozen might be sold each year at first....
I will be almost 90 and driving to the store once a week in a 30 year old Miata with a stick shift. It will take me longer to get in and out of the car than it does to get to the store but I won't care.
Hmmm. I googled K&N filter problems and was rather surprised by the number of people who have in fact had problems with the K&N filter. Perhaps I am fortunate to not have had any problems. I clean and reoil the filter every June. Although I just did the filter, I think I may just listen to you and those who have written about their K&N problems and put an OEM filter in so as not to have problems in the future. I am not concerned about the cost, but put the K&N in for it's "claimed" performance and longevity. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I'd never heard anyone say anything like that about K&N before.
2008 Accord
length: 194.9 inches
weight: 3216
mpg: 24 (by 2012 they'd gotten this up to 27)
2013 Accord
length: 191.4
weight: 3192
mpg: 30
I wonder what the length and weight of the next generation of Accord might be? Maybe something like...?
2018 Accord
length: 188
weight: 3000
mpg: 34?
Perhaps that's too much of a downsize, but that would put it close to where the 1998-2002 Accord was:
1998 Accord
length: 188.8
weight: 3000
but back in those days the epa combined mpg was only 22
If they do downsize by c.3 inches in length and 200 lbs in weight for 2018, they might be able to go to a 2.2 liter engine while still giving the same peppy acceleration of the current model. A 3 liter V-6 with variable cylinder use could still be kept for the sports sedan people.
No they are not! I did all the maintenance on my Dodge, and it still met the tow truck just about every year of ownership.
These are the same people that said the Big 3 would never go bankrupt.
I totally agree that it sounds like the Big 3 apologists. I drove a Chrysler product (government owned) for 3 years. It had more in repair bills (under warranty) than the original sticker price.