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Honda Civic Hybrid IMA Problems

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Comments

  • gnatggnatg Member Posts: 7
    I wrote Honda American Motors in Torrance, CA twice and got the same canned response - that it was "driver habits." What nonsense! My local Long Beach/Signal Hill dealer gave me the same line of b.s. I met with the local factory representative at a Honda dealer in Irvine, CA. He reluctantly admitted that it was not my driving habits. Also, the dealer's rep stated unequivocally that it was the software upgrade causing the issue and that he and the dealership did not like lying to their customers; just Honda is perpetuating this lie unless you made a lot of noise. The factory rep got back to me a couple days later with the response I expected - Hondawould not replace my battery nor do anything else about it. He referred me to my warranty. What a bunch of patronizing c**p! Honda knows they have a problem and they don't know how to fix it; rather than stepping up to the plate with their customers, they are covering their corporate assets by trying to blame their customers for the mileage problem. I filed a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission, and I intend to file with every other consumer agency I can and recommend Honda customers with the same problem do the same thing. Honda needs some heat on it. They have betrayed their customers and sold a product they claimed was a "hybrid" but because of their failed technology, is no longer a hybrid at 25-28 mpg.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I got the software upgrade first, which did nothing to solve the problem. Then, I got a new battery and the problem was solved. But, I wonder how long it will last. It appears that the Honda problem can be solved, at least for a time, by replacing batteries. However, that is not an ideal solution.
  • pas2pas2 Member Posts: 3
    The FTC will be hearing from me as well. I told Honda I would be filing a complaint with the FTC and the State Attorney's office for unfair sales practices as well as fraudulent communications regarding their reasoning for the "update". The rep had no response...obviously, she couldn't care less. I agree that we need to put some heat on HOA.
  • oijibuuroijibuur Member Posts: 4
    I recently had my car in to have my local dealer test drive it. After the test drive and consulting with Honda Canada, they decided to replace the IMA battery in the car. (I have never had the IMA error reported by the onboard computer). The mileage has improved (going from 6.5 l / 100km avg) back to a reasonable (4.9 l / 100km avg), not quite where it used to be prior to the patch but there is hope for those to get their batteries replaced without first getting an error.
  • yzerman123yzerman123 Member Posts: 9
    @ oijibuur :

    That's very interesting. Do you live in Canada or the US?
  • pas2pas2 Member Posts: 3
    I am in the U.S..
  • gnatggnatg Member Posts: 7
    Honda refused to anything for me. I live in California and dealt with the American Honda corporate headquarters which is local; and I met with a factory rep. Both were patronizing and not willing to take responsibility or acknowledge their technology failure or what to do about it.
  • mac521mac521 Member Posts: 1
    Im having the same issues with my 2008 after they installed a techinical software thing! Ive lost the love of driving my car!!! I cant count on it to accerlate in a pinch and after a hard winter in minnesota im afraid to drive. See sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnt and sometimes it all sudden kicks in and if your on ice watch out! I dont know how many times ive almost lost control of my car because of this. What is going to take for honda to fix this problem... Someone to die!

    We consumers need to fight back!!! Start taking video of your issues and start posting them on facebook and youtube!
  • inmyhumbleopinmyhumbleop Member Posts: 24
    Please go to and like HONDA CORPORATION HAS NO HONOR on Facebook.

    So far I haven't had a performance issue except for once, but that was very unsettling.
    My milage is between 31 and 32 mpg. Consistently, since I had the software upgrade which really should be called a software downgrade.
    So, what I've been doing is not resetting my "B" odometer to document the mileage issue.
    I'd like to see an event where HCH owners park their cars on the main road leading to the auto mall to protest/hold signs, etc. about our crappy cars all on the same day. Like the day the new models go on sale.
    If followers on this forum would seriously be willing to be part of this, go to the FB page above and "like" it. (It's not my page, BTW.) If I see the page suddenly has a big increase in "likes", I will try to organize a "protest" event for all unhappy HCH owners (which I assume are ALL HCH owners), on FB.
  • gremlin1gremlin1 Member Posts: 6
    We bought a 2000 Honda Insight - the first in our area. Our initial mileage was 72 mpg. About 6 months later, we got a notice that Honda needed to update the software. So they did. Our mileage dropped to 60 mpg and kept dropping. We had the original battery replaced in 2006, another replacement in 2007, 2008, and 2009 all while under warranty. The battery failed again in late November 2010 when we were out of the warranty. The price quoted us then for a new battery was $2,400 BUT with just a 12-month or 12,000 mile warranty, whichever came first. We got the same runaround - "driving habits". Our mileage had dropped all the way to 50 mpg which is a 30.5% drop in mileage advertised and mileage we got intially. Honda has not treated us well at all. Honda should acknowledge they have a problem and not pass it on to the people who bought their product. We live in central California; our dealer told us to call Honda of America; we called and were told "it's your fault because of your driving habits". The Honda of America rep said "just back it out of the garage and rev up the engine for several minutes before driving" - which is pretty lame advice. The car is in our garage and we do not know what to do. Meanwhile we are driving our 1985 Honda Civic which is at least reliable. We will never buy another Honda because they won't back up their hybrid automobiles. We will never buy another Hybrid or an Electric car until improved battery technology is used and proven. The IMA system stinks. Financially, a person would have to be stupid to buy a $2,400 battery with a one year or 12,000 mile warranty. $2,400 even with gas at $4+ per gallon would buy a lot of gas for a car that is dependable and not a potential accident causer. To go north from where we live is probably a 15 to 20 uphill grade. Failure of the car on the uphill climb could cause us to end up going over a cliff by being rear ended as the car has no acceleration. It is a potential hazard. And our situation gives history to this problem and shows that Honda was aware of this for at least 11 years. The Prius came out in 2000 and we have friends who bought them - not a single complaint. We only wish we had bought a Prius.
  • viawviaw Member Posts: 34
    all i have to say is "F'in Honda"!!!!
    all they say is that it's OUR damn driving habits. that's the only excuse they can think of.
    F.U. Honda!!!!!
  • jack000jack000 Member Posts: 16
    So I did some snooping around on the ecomodder forums. Turns out, there was someone with the same battery issues we've seen here (not surprising). He Built a grid (trickle) charger for the car out of 48V power supplies to "re-balance" the NiMH battery pack.

    I wondered why the battery would even need to be rebalanced, surely Honda and their "perfect" IMA system (as I was told by the mechanic at the dealer) would monitor such things.

    I look at my trusty service manual, and nope. They only have 24 battery sensors for 132 cells.

    So I go ahead and order the power supplies, fuses, and rectifiers (diodes). I pop out the rear seat and hook the negative end of the charger to the negative lug, and the positive to a wire on the BCM (I dont remember exactly which one at the moment). I put a 12v adapter and fan on the vent (to cool off the battery) and calibrated it to 198 volts (1.5 volts/cell).

    I needed to make sure the current was a C/10 so that the cell would recombine all of the excess gas from 'overcharging' (this is in the design of NiMH cells). so a 5.5AH pack needs a 550ma charger. I used the Meanwell RS25-48 PSUs and wired them in series with an LPC 35-700 adjustable supply along with the fuses and diodes.

    I charge up the car for 24 hours (2x capacity so that any cells that are way off can catch up) and start the car. After a few hours of it recalibrating, etc. There are little to no recalibrations AND mileage is back up to 45+mpg (from 36mpg). This is AFTER the software patch. I have a solar panel that I plan on hooking up to the charger to use while I'm parked.

    So far so good. NOTE: Do NOT turn on the car with the charger activated. It WILL throw a code and can possibly confuse the BCM and it will take longer for your car to recalibrate to the battery.

    This is purely informational. If you decide to do anything described here, you do so at YOUR OWN RISK. Please take proper precautions when working with the battery and power supply, as they are HIGH VOLTAGE and produce enough current to KILL.

    Ecomodder forum:
    http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/diy-solutions-honda-hybrid-battery-pro- blems-insight-civic-13610.html

    Grid charger schematic:
    http://99mpg.com/Data/resources/downloads/gridchargerstuff/grid_charger_balancer- _2.pdf
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    edited May 2011
    The update that was made to your car in 2000 had nothing to do with performance. It corrected a bug that allowed the car to overcharge the battery in sub-zero weather (and damage it). The ECM update in 2001 MAY have affected your mileage, but it was in no way related to the battery system - it changed the engine timing to correct a problem with the emissions.

    What happened is that the update you had coincided with the battery failing. We see a LOT of insights (three per week) and most get 120,000 - 180,000 miles on their initial batteries. One group of drivers does not. That is the drivers that either drive very little (less than 5,000 miles per year) or drive infrequently (don't drive daily). There is also the odd case of the driver that lives at the top of a large hill. Any one of these will result in premature failure. Last year I had a customer that lived in manhattan and drove his car only on weekends. He had 5 batteries in 10 years in 35,000 miles. He came to us because his warranty was up, we balanced his battery and installed a charger. Now he plugs in the car on Friday night and I don't expect he'll ever have another problem.

    If these driving patterns match yours, you need a charger as well. There are a few of them being sold by different people. Call me so that we can figure out what can be done to get your battery functional again. I believe it can be saved.

    BTW, I've never known an Insight that didn't run out of battery long before finishing a 15-20 mile uphill grade - or did you mean 15-20 degree grade?

    If you are experiencing a loss of power immediately after starting the car in the morning, it is a recal (recalibration event) from sitting. Revving the engine is actually the correct procedure, but since the engine is cold, I'd recommend just letting it sit and idle instead. The battery power will return in 45-75 seconds.

    With a little TLC, you'll be back to 70 mpg. Honda won't help you because your car is 11 years old.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    edited May 2011
    Why didn't they build in a BMS and only monitor 12 cells at a time? Because it would have added several hundred dollars of electronics to an already expensive car.

    Now, a few notes for you because you seem technically inclined.

    The battery is 6.5 Ah at 0.2C (the standard way of measuring)
    1.6V is the terminal charge voltage for healthy cells (actually 1.65V, but that's risky)
    C/20 is more acceptable for a fanless setup, so if you plan to do this again, go with 350Ma. With the electronics built into that fan, I assume you tapped in above the PWM module, but what speed do you have it running at?

    Also, please limit the charge to 8-12 hours, because your battery isn't starting out empty.

    Lastly, your battery will benefit most from several charge/discharge cycles, not just one.

    Also, be aware that 2003-2005 Civics have 120 cells and 2006+ have 132 cells.
  • yzerman123yzerman123 Member Posts: 9
    Hello Ogre_GEV,

    You spoke about a customer living in Manhattan who drove his Insight infrequently and needed to replace the battery often.

    My situation is similar. I live in the downtown core of my city and I drive my 2006 HCH infrequently. My battery started deteriorating at about 40,000 miles. I'm now at roughly 50,000 and mileage is definitely down.

    Is there any way of installing a charger to fix this problem?
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    Yzerman123,

    Yes, you can install a charger and charge it prior to each use if it has been left unused for more than a few days. I don't know if your battery is recoverable, but it will at least arrest the deterioration. The gentleman I was talking about had less than 3,000 miles on the battery, so it had faster sudden damage while yours is a slower, more gradual thing.

    Still, without a charger, your only choices are to drive the car more, replace the battery every few years or get rid of the car.

    If you are unable to build one, contact me via email and I'll put you in touch with someone that can.
  • bobbichenbobbichen Member Posts: 11
    Hello, all. I know a lot of you have had issues with the HCH II. I bought mine about 6 months ago at a rock bottom price when dealers were lousy with hybrids. I thought the HCH II was an "okay" car. It got fairly good mileage, but not as well as advertised. The IMA system was kind of a pain, and distracting. It was prone to suddenly "dump" charges a couple of times a week, so you would have to drive like a granny to get the charge back up. It road rough as a buckboard on our bad Midwestern streets. Recently I noticed that with gas up over $4 the prices of these things had jumped by $2 to $3k at the retail/wholesale. I took the opportunity and traded my HCH II in on a late model V6 SUV. (I don't drive that much so the gas won't kill me. Basically buy low and sell high, as it were). I paid about $13.5k for my 2008 HCH in December and received $15.5k on trade. Not a bad deal. If you are sick of the hassle of the IMA system and Honda, you may want to consider trading or selling your car while gas is still north of $3.75. As gas prices come down, so will the value of the various hybrid models. Best of luck to you all.
  • hybridpatsyhybridpatsy Member Posts: 7
    I sold mine also. Unfortunately, I wanted a Subaru SUV because they only sell PZEVs here and knew if I waited the prices on them were going to go sky-high also or they would not be available. I also wanted to trade it in before too many people heard about the issues and the value went down. Got enough for my 2007 to drive the SUV for three years for free, and got some money back. I was afraid to drive my car anymore. I am getting about 2/3 of the mileage in the SUV of the hybrid - for $30-40 more a month it was worth it to know when I press the gas pedal the car will actually move, not stall or have no pickup. I wanted to keep my car but was pretty sure I was going to be killed in it because of the pickup and stalling issues. :lemon:
  • jack000jack000 Member Posts: 16
    I had the fan running at full blast with a separate 12v power supply.
    I had done several cycles on it... the first one was the 24 hour cycle and just a few 8-12 hour overnight cycles after that.
    I have an '09, and the charger was delivering ~210 volts.

    After a few weeks of driving, IMA light went on and then went off.
    I took all my charging stuff out of the battery compartment, and brought it in.
    There was a battery degradation code and an internal short code. They ordered and installed a new battery for me and the new pack performs spectacularly. MPG has increased from 45 to 53!
    No 'recals' every morning and I've had the new pack for more than a week.

    Also, the dealer told me the new battery was 'improved' over the old one but that's all he knew. Does anyone know what changes and improvements were made to the pack?
    My guess is they went with a different NiMH cell that can withstand higher temps and doesn't get imbalanced as easily.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    edited May 2011
    The codes were left over from before you charged it.

    My best guess on "improved" is that they have finally run out of their stockpile of Sanyo cells and have switched suppliers. Panasonic/Sanyo sold off their NiMH division a couple years ago. I've known about the changed chemistry for a while, but yours is the first I've run across.
  • lunitalunita Member Posts: 1
    Went thru the things you guys went thru with Honda, but did not complain much......what the hell few less miles per gallon etc................but on Sunday May 29th as my wife and I were traveling to the gulf coast cruising along about 65 miles an hour on I-10..........car just shuts off......am lucky I'm a right lane driver.........no vehicles around.......it was daytime.....etc..... got to side of highway......car started right up! We are now looking to trade.........honda sales mgr. told my wife she convinced herself there is a problem! Looks like we can't deal with honda, so would like any info on who I can contact to take this to step #2.........my email address is cccl98@ yahoo.com.......
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    edited June 2011
    A failure of the battery can't cause the car to shut off especially at highway speeds. It could cause it not to restart from auto-stop, or if it stops charging the 12V battery it could die on you, but you would have noticed the alternator light on for 20 miles and at the end the dash would go crazy winking on and off and the car would stumble like it had run out of gas.

    It can't just die. I think something else happened and you are attributing it to the battery because you know there is something wrong with it.

    Even with a total instantaneous failure of the entire IMA electronics system, the gas engine would not shut down like that.
  • mabecanemabecane Member Posts: 46
    The DC converter is probably the culprit, there was a recall about a couple months ago for the 2006 model. In some cases the fuses get blown and some of the components stops working and you can get stranded with the engine quitting on you. I had mine replaced free of charge. I also made sure that the IMA patch was not installed on my 06. I still get 45mpg around town and over 50 on long highway rides.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    Again, that would result in a lit alternator light and the dash would go crazy reinitializing before it died.

    A sudden failure would point to some kind of hiccup in the ignition system such as the ECM activating the immobilizer circuit.

    Definitely a problem, but not caused by the battery.
  • luckyflyerluckyflyer Member Posts: 1
    Hello all, I've read most of the posts in this thread and I find my self in the same position as others here. I purchased new in early 06 an 06 HCH. It has been a good car except now the IMA battery is showing the common signs of deterioration.
    . No warning lights yet but I don't think I'm far from that. I called the Honda dealer who is 75 miles from me and ask if I could bring the car in to have the IMA battery checked I just wanted to know its condition. They said sure bring it in and we can test it and let you know its status. I got there and I told the guy that I did not want any software updates done to the car.he said ok no problem and I signed a paper stating no software updates. The guy excuses him self to go and talk to the tech who will be doing the work and comes back in a few minutes and tells me that the battery cannot even be checked without the software updates being done. Well I'm p.oed about this but I keep my cool and explain why I don't want the updates. The guy then calls someone named Chris who is the guy that the service managers go to with questions in this area. After their conversation the assistant service manager tells me that this is policy and there is no getting around it. I let this guy know that I have made a 150 mile trip that wasted not only my gas but also my time. All I got from him was an I'm sorry.
    Well that is the background on my encounter with Honda service. I've pretty much washed my hands of them. As far as Im concerned even though they say on paper they warranty their batteries the reality is they don't or at best only on special occasions.
    I make my living with electronics and the idea that keeps coming to me is why don't I rebuild the battery pack myself. The beauty of this is that the connectivity to provide for grid charging and balancing of the pack can be built in during the rebuild. There are a few web sites that talk about the Insight battery but virtually none on the HCH II. A guy on one of the insight forums talked about doing a step by step on his HCH II battery but so far has not. These guys http://www.hybrid-battery-repair.com/ will rebuild a gen 1 HCH but they don't mention the gen II. I've Googled for the procedure to remove the battery from the car but came up empty( I know its behind the back seat). Is there a master shut off switch like the Insight has? If I'm going to do this I want to do it safely and correctly. At this point it may be best to buy a service manual for the car. Has any Electronically savvy owner attempted this and been successful? Inquiring minds would like to know.
    Thanks,
    luckyflyer
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    There isn't a whole lot a dealer can do to "test" a battery other than install the software that you don't want. The OBD-II codes that they pull from the car, YOU can pull from the car for free at your local Autozone.

    I believe that the update will probably improve your battery (won't make it worse unless it's already terminal, will improve some, won't affect others), but there is a fairly large chance that you won't like the behavioral changes to the car. If you are the type of driver who's battery is always full, then you will likely see no difference, but if you use your battery down to almost nothing regularly, then you will NOT like what it does to your car.

    You do realize, don't you, that I am the guy at the website you mentioned? Gen-II Civics and Accords are serviced, but aren't listed because most of them are still under warranty so their owners go to the dealer. Instructions are available (and free), but they're not posted on the web, so Google can't find them. Just call or email for them.

    Contact me to discuss changes you need to make to the Gen-I test procedures to get them to work on your Gen-II.
  • markrockmarkrock Member Posts: 6
    I've suffered 12 months since last June when my 2007 HCH suddenly lost its ability to generate power (the warning light has never come on) (the first software update was the previous Fall). It's been a safety issue for me. I finally decided that I had to get rid of the car, so took it to the dealership where I had purchased it. They said they would test the car, and I agreed with the proviso that I would not pay for anything.
    The battery checked out fine, with "75% life remaining". They mistakenly gave it the most recent updates, so I didn't have to pay for that $100 (shouldn't have to pay for something that "corrects" the original). I live in the North Texas region, so the temp has been a factor ie worse than during the cool months. Though it's only been 2 weeks to see how the car behaves, and expecting nothing, I'm impressed enough that I no longer plan on selling it. Go figure! I have 6 more years for my needs as someone who puts on about 125 - 150 miles every day, 5 days a week. Wish me luck, as I do everyone else having trouble.
  • ttomakattomaka Member Posts: 10
    Ogre, What does one do to be "the type of driver who's battery is always full..." versus one to "use your battery down to almost nothing regularly"??

    I see nothing in the operation of an HCHII which allows me to control the battery charge level. They way I understand it, this is a function of the IMA control system. Please enlighten us.
  • bobbichenbobbichen Member Posts: 11
    FYI. For those of you knashing teeth about your IMA problems (real or perhaps upcoming) I recently sold mine for high book. I was lucky as I bought it for wholesale in December last so I made about $2k on the deal. With gas around $4 a gallon dealers are willing to pay more for hybrids. With Japan healing from the tsunami and with gas prices stabilizing this market will not last. If you want out, it might be your time. I traded into a V6 SUV (for wholesale). Not as environmentally sound, but I only drive about 50-70 miles a week or so and commute by bike a few days so it is no big deal to me personally. Happy trails.
  • vageologistsvageologists Member Posts: 2
    I'm a driver, not mechanically inclined. I have a 2003 Civic hybrid, bought new; the IMA light come on recently. I read dome of the posts, though I don't understand info. like whether or not software needs to be upgraded. The 'round city gas mileage has dropped a bit, to about 43mpg, but I know it doesn't like hot weather in our Washington DC area, and its city driving, so I don't blame the car. And yes, I drive the battery down, though I'm willing to change that habit if it hurts the car. Thanks in advance for any and all help.
  • vidarvidar Member Posts: 18
    First, don't upgrade the software. I have a 2005 civic hybrid, and never got any software updates. Reading posts in about the 700 range onward, it appears that the upgrades were a 'patch' to extend battery life. Thus in turn kills the amount of battery torque available during acceleration. Also figured into degrading gas mileage. As for 43 mpg, consider that when the A/C unit is running it scavenges 6 to 8 mpg from the car.

    Considering the IMA light, you will need to see how fast the battery discharges during hard acceleration, and how long it takes to recharge. On my car at 167k miles on the odometer, a 'to the floorboard' acceleration will take the battery to slightly less than half charge within a mile, then will induce a slight charge at cruising speed for about 5 minutes ( 3/4 battery capacity is when the induced charge goes to neutral). I am unfamiliar with the available gauges on a 2003.

    A/C running and most miles I am running at interstate speed I get about 37 mpg on new Bosch plugs. Not good as compared to what it was new, but there is plenty of sensors, etc that I probably need to replace or get calibrated.
  • gchybridgchybrid Member Posts: 2
    Hello,

    I have HCH 2003 with 109K miles. IMA light came on yesterday. Do I need to take it to the dealer right away? What are my options?

    Would appreciate any suggestions.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    Have the code read to see what the problem is. I think Auto Zone will do it for free. It is probably a bad battery. If it is, you can either buy a refurbished one or have it refurbished.
  • heather_07hchheather_07hch Member Posts: 28
    I traded my 2007 HCH for a 2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDI. I am averaging 34 mpg driving the same route that I was averaging 38 in my HCH. BUT, I feel safe, I'm no longer angry, and I can actually pull out into traffic without waiting for so long that others are honking behind me! I get about 41 mpg hwy, which is slightly better than the HCH. I couldn't get more than 38 out of it since the software update/battery replacement last year. The first year I owned it, I got 45. I thought I would have that car forever, and I felt so good when I purchased it. Fuel economy was great, and I was reducing my carbon footprint. My family needed a larger car, but I didn't want to go back to 30 mpgs max in a sedan or less in a small SUV. The Sportwagen was the perfect solution. I have plenty of go under the hood, excellent fuel economy, and more space for our belongings. Looking forward to our first family vacation in 6 weeks, where 2 weeks ago I wondered how the Civic would tolerate a road trip in 80-90 degree weather loaded to the gills. I was afraid we wouldn't make it.

    I'll be signing off the forum. I have followed for over a year now. I am happy to be rid of the car that caused me and my family so much stress. What a disappointment. I hope you all find a solution.
  • profmetryprofmetry Member Posts: 1
    I have an 03 Civic Hybrid. 188,000 and on its 2nd battery pack, transmission rebuilt a year ago. Idling at stop lights (a/c on - not in econ mode) or in a fast food drive thru; the engine will stutter and shake the car and act like it is about to stall. When the gas pedal is pushed, there is a delay before finally moving the car. Aslo gas mileage has dropped from 39 to 34 and now at 28mpg over the last 3 months. Want to look at simple things first - Honda says it can't be a fuel filter, haven't had and service other than oil changes in 11 months. Any ideas?
  • mabecanemabecane Member Posts: 46
    Honda is right about the fuel filter, the civic does not have a fuel filter. Try pouring injector cleaner in the fuel tank. Check your air filter. Check if your spark plug wires have any cracks. Change spark plugs or at least clean them.
  • steve3717steve3717 Member Posts: 4
    I'm wondering if anyone has seen an IMA error light come on running the latest software update on a HCH II? My battery performs negative recalls 2-3 times each way on my commute, 5-6 times every day. The negative recalls are followed by 2-3 minutes of forced regen, after which the battery meter shows full. This "full" battery discharges again in 5-10 minutes under relatively mild driving conditions (60 mph on the highway with the cruise control, typically), after which the cycle starts again.

    The issues with my IMA have been getting progressively worse over the past 2 years, and I'm far from running out on the battery warranty. However, I'm shocked that the battery has not coded out already, based on what I'm seeing. Is it possible Honda's latest firmware update throws out the metrics for a bad battery that would cause the IMA light to come on? Is there anyone who has seen an IMA light on the latest firmware?
  • viawviaw Member Posts: 34
    dead on steve. i'm sure honda has purposely turned off any signal from the battery to the computer to say that there is a problem with the battery. you are not alone and in my case, i have just turned on the key in the morning without starting the engine and in about a minute and a half, the battery would drain. i loathe turning my car off for a short errand and then having to turn it back on as this actually forces the drain faster than if i'm driving longer distances.
    just a joke about these honda reps and their engineers saying that this is normal. i guess that if it happens often enough, it is considered normal. :lemon:
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    Has anyone had the IMA light come on after the software upgrade? Seems like I remember someone reporting that they had.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    The battery isn't "draining". The car is trying to figure out how much charge is in the battery. While it does it, it show an empty gauge. This is why you see it plummet and then rise again about a minute later.

    It actually takes more than 6 minutes at full assist to drain a battery, and 12 minutes to charge one.

    You're just seeing the gauge go up and down.

    The reason it happens every morning is that some of the cells are rapidly discharging overnight and the car detects that they have dropped, so it tests the battery to determine the actual capacity. Your battery is having trouble, but some of the software updates MAY exercise the battery in such a way that it actually improves. It will either improve (happen less often) or get worse (more often) and fail. Without the updates it will definitely fail.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    Drivers who accelerate more gently use less assist and therefore keep their batteries more full. Typically, these drivers drive in the right lane and keep at or below the speed limit.

    Drivers who accelerate more and "keep up with traffic" tend to use more assist and therefore have less-full batteries.

    Since the software changes primarily affect only the behavior of the car when it is below 1/4 charge, the first category of driver will not see any difference, while the latter group will potentially find themselves without any assist available (car underpowered).
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    The software update only applies to 2006-2008 cars.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    Your 2005 is identical to a 2003. The software update only applies to 2006-2008 cars. 35 mpg isn't that good, but there are some possible culprits that can be adjusted to improve it.

    First, 34 psi is the minimum to have in your tires and 44 is better.

    Try this test: adjust your tire pressure and find a nice stretch of road to drive 50 mph. Pretend that there is a raw egg taped to your gas pedal and you don't want to crack it. Drive 50 mph for 5-10 miles without accelerating or decelerating much. Open your windows and turn off the AC.

    You should get at least 50 mpg in a CVT or 55 in a manual transmission car. If you don't, then you need to check other things like alignment, CV joints, catalytic converter, etc.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    "I'm shocked the car hasn't coded out yet"

    The system is really robust and your battery is unusual in that you are getting both positive and negative recals. What this means is that under load (discharge) your battery gets worse and the car detects it and then when recharging on the highway at steady speeds it gets better and the car detects it.

    A grid charger (trickle charger) might help you immensely, but you are under warranty.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    As the previous poster said, get your codes read (for free) at an Autozone. A dealer will do nothing but charge you $3000 to replace the battery.

    P1433 - drive the car for the next 60-90 days until it dies, then replace the battery

    P1447 - same as above, but 3-6 months

    P1449 - fix it now before you make it worse

    P1570 or P1568 - fix it, its a cheap repair

    Anything else may be a non-battery problem and will be easy (and cheap) to fix.

    Don't go to a dealer. They are expensive and half of the time they have no clue.

    Email me if you want more help
  • viawviaw Member Posts: 34
    ogre,
    appreciate what you write on the blog and your insights. however, i think i can speak for those of us that these recals in the morning are not solely from over night drains. these recals occur almost every other time the car is started. it can happen every 20 minutes in relatively mild commutes. i have an hour commute every day into work and it often drains 2 and sometimes 3 times just during this one stretch. also, the recals can occur more often if your car is stressed like going uphill (which happened to me multiple times on one 30 mile stretch going up to Tahoe).
    so, yes, it's a recal problem with the system. why it occurs 4-5 times in a day (practically every day) is a problem that Honda doesn't admit to.
    just imagine you run city errands. i drive the kids to school in the morning (3 miles). it recals. get it back to full, turn off the engine drop off the kids. start the car, drive to the store (<1 mile). stop the car, charge is full. start the car again, within a minute, recals. drive home (<3 miles) and all this time, in regen mode. all this driving is 25mph zones, so light driving. get home, regen is complete. let car sit for a couple of hours and go get lunch...and whoa...guess what. car recals (always within 1.5 minutes). and this starts all over again even though i have not stressed the engine (as per manual that "drain" may happen if engine is stressed). also, you actually don't even need to turn on your engine for it to recal (obviously something it knows to do when you turn the key). so you can lose all your charge just by sitting there without the engine ever being turned on.
    so as you noted ogre, you say that my battery is having trouble, i think that's what everyone has been trying to say, maybe not in the proper technical aspect in their descriptions, but ultimately, the problem is the battery. and that is where everyone is coming from. no matter how you or anyone wants to describe the exact problem, there is a problem that Honda does not want to admit to.
    and ever since the software update, it's been crap and has worsened the performance and mileage. now you can say that it's with respect to how each of us drive, but it's obviously all relative. i used to get 48 mpg, now i get 42 after the software fix. so power, performance and efficiency has degraded at the expense of trying to "save" the IMA battery.
    the HP/torque curve with respect to RPM's shows that the battery "assists" the puny engine, but that performance is no longer valid after the software fix. it has reduced the amount of assistance, so that assist curve is practially sitting on top of that engine curve. and if it's during regen, there is no "electric assist" and is all 1.3liter engine pushing that car up a hill or accelerating onto 70mph freeway from that metering light.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    edited August 2011
    I'm not trying to dispute that your (and many others') battery has a problem. Just realize that what is causing you all the heartache is the car responding to what is normally a natural event that happens every six months or so.

    Each time a recal starts, the car thinks it is a normal aging event. Each time the recal ends, the car has determined that the battery is still functional and now has THESE specific parameters and is still within normal tolerances.

    The problem is that your battery keeps changing (or appearring to) and it keeps triggering this event. From your description, it sounds like your battery is dipping under load (starting the car), and then recovering quite a bit when you stop it even for a few minutes. This is unusual and does not match the behavior of most failing batteries that we see (and we see MANY batteries). Most will trigger a recal if they sit, or if they are put under a heavy load (freeway merge).

    Some will trigger it on a heavy charge (exiting the highway with lots of regen if the battery is very full).

    I don't know if your battery will actually fail. I hope for your sake that it does so you get a new one.

    Have you tried a few hours of AC off to see if it affects the recal behavior?

    I do feel that the software update is good for your car despite the negative mpg impact. Remember that 2009-2012 Civics have run this software since day one. The update just updates the 2006-2008 cars to match the 2009+ cars.

    So to sum up, I'm agreeing with you, but I'm explaining what is really going on, and not what appears to be going on.

    I forsee that when these cars reach 15+ years, they will need either a BMS or a plug-in charging regimen. Meanwhile, you've got a warranty. I was one of the unlucky ones without a warranty due to an airbag deployment.
  • viawviaw Member Posts: 34
    edited August 2011
    ogre,
    bummer about your warranty.
    i live in bay area cali. so i almost never have the AC on. if i do, it obviously stresses the engine more so i don't bother as it's nice and cool usually.
    as for the warranty, i'm at 110k and warranty is good til 150k. so i don't think i'll be "lucky" enough to have it die as i got the suckware fix at 85k and things don't look dire outside of the annoyance with the car/battery. i did go to arbitration with BBB and Honda, but unfortunately, BBB didn't have a clue what i was trying to present. they took Honda's word for it that "this recal is normal operation" and that's it. didn't even test drive my car to feel how impotent the car was even going up an underground garage ramp.
    easy OGRE
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    The lack of warranty got me into the battery repair business, so it's all good.

    You might want to consider a grid charger (trickle charger). Just don't tell the dealership about it. Used weekly or so it might get your battery behaving better.
  • steve3717steve3717 Member Posts: 4
    Ogre_GEV,
    Thanks for the information. I've considered the grid charger, and would be all for it if it didn't void the warranty. In lieue of that, I plan on driving it for another 10-20K and selling it if the battery has not failed. However, if the battery meter keeps bouncing up and down like a beach ball, I may trade it in sooner.
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