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http://www.dontsettlewithhonda.org/#!opt-out
I was reading an article about Hybrids and there was a theory that Hybrid fuel economy really sucks in colder weather. The batteries do not have the same juice they have in Sunny California.
If you are driving in sub zero weather this might explain your higher fuel consumption. Your gas engine works extra hard in winter months... Something to consider when weighing the options of a hybrid vs 4 cylinder...
Cheers,
James700
In a couple of hours I'm bringing my 06 HCH to the dealer, my car ran fine for 80k but lately the battery is showing signs of deterioration, I get the dreaded P0A7F code, the IMA light comes and goes, now the check engine light is on. Still the same code showing when checked with the OBDII code reader. I probably will have the battery replaced. It really sucks, I was planing to keep this car for a long time. Anyway today is the day. Go Heather!
That means that fuel economy will suffer until the car warms up. This same drop happens in any car - hybrid or conventional and is worse in the winter because it takes longer to heat up.
What plays a larger roll is gas formulation. In the winter, the additives that are put into gasoline are changed to improve emissions with the lower temperature. These additives affect fuel economy in all cars, but we see it more in hybrids because "x percent drop" is a bigger number in a hybrid.
I just drove across the country (I70) and averaged 58 mpg in my 2000 Insight. The same trip in early September in a 2001 Insight Oof identical performance was 64 mpg with the AC on.
On a side note, gasoline is modified for altitude as well. In Denver, they sell 85, 87 and 91 octane gas, and it was $2.99 a gallon in mid January. The octane is lower because of the thinner air. I have no idea what impact it would have on economy because I didn't get any gas in Colorado.
In other words, your battery has deteriorated severely and is "worn out". It isn't going to magically get better, so a replacement is due.
We find that heat does play a role in this. Arizona and southern Texas vehicles suffer from this at an earlier age than other parts of the country (strangely, New Mexico seems to have less cars, so we don't see as many of them, or perhaps altitude plays a role?). Upon examination, we also find that the uppermost cells in the pack are significantly weaker than the lower ones. Heat rises.
They tested the car and came with this statement on the service sheet
"Code POA7F stored for high voltage battery capacity serious deterioration, updated PCM and IMA ( the freaking update) system updates.road tested car,light did not come back on. If light comes back on will need new IMA battery, aprox $2750 installed
Before I told them that it was under warranty, they were going to order a new battery, when they asked me to leave a deposit for it I told them about the federal 10 year/150k warranty and they argued that the warranty was 8/80k. So back to their pc and scratched their chins and sure enough,there it was 10y/150k. But they still wanted to make sure that my model qualified. It must be a PZEV model, then I told them it was, but they looked under the hood and after deliberation they agreed. I can't understand why I have to wait for a new battery. I told I would be back soon.
I can tell the update changed my IMA assist, it won't idle at stop signs and won't kick in going up steep hills. The ride to my house was only 8 miles.
That code better come back soon.
Now I feel better for opting out of the settlement. :mad:
Honda headquarters wanted to listen to my complaints and rate my satisfaction with the services I received during my visit with the dealer last week. So far still no battery replacement, My dealer manually erased the P0A7F code off my car brain then installed the 10-034 update that I refused in writing last year. The dealer never told me they were going to instal it this time. Their argument is "we erased the faulty code to install the update and wait to see if it comes back. Even with a new battery I'm stuck with that update. As soon as I drove the car home I could tell the car was not the same, my mileage dropped an other 4mpg since.
I'm really ticked off, the dealer acted like my warranty was over at (87k) and then tried hard to disregard the 10y/150 miles extended warranty saying my model has to be a pzev type low emissions, which it is. I had to point the markings under the hood for them.
At first they told me I need a new battery and sent me to the cashier's desk to leave a deposit to order the battery to the cost of $2750, when I told them it was a warranty repair and I did not have to give them any money their tune changed and gave me the update BS story that it was Honda's protocol regarding installing new IMA batteries they sent me home.
The dealer blames Honda corp and Honda blames the dealer for not being fully aware the warranty. Typical! Meanwhile "WE" the consumer get stuck holding the bag. This is not over, I gave the dealer a rating of 2 out of 5 on the phone to Honda corp. BBB received my complaint, I have the package from them for me to fill the details and send them my documents. Even if I get satisfaction I'm not happy getting a battery that will again fail prematurely, I want to keep the car a long time. Getting an aftermarket better battery with more capacity may be an option for me later.
Your dealer is the problem right now. They are the ones who are interpreting the warranties incorrectly and being had nosed.
Let's see how you do over the next couple of weeks.
BTW, the dealer does have to order the battery from Honda and it does take a few days to arrive.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/01/honda-hybrid-lawsuit-heather-peters-win- s_n_1248357.html
But now Honda will bring out their hot-shot attorneys for the appeal. Good luck Heather.
What a terrible, sad, company. NEVER BUY ANOTHER HONDA!!! And tell your friends and family this story so that they will know the truth: Honda SUCKS!!!
Can it be removed
and if it can
Does anyone had it removed.
I refused the update in writing on the work order but they went along.
Can someone send me a copy of the July 2010 letter informing HCH owner to have the update installed by their dealer.
The letter mentioned that "not installing the update would not void the IMA warranty".
http://documents.latimes.com/honda-civic-hybrid-suit/
i had my small claims court hearing in Pleasanton, CA today. My case was actually supposed to have been heard a month ago (actually a few days after Heather Peter's case). But got delayed cuz i hadn't served Honda properly. anyways, i think it went very well.
if you plan on opting out and pursuing your own case, i would suggest that you be well prepared. i think that you folks should NOT pursue this "false advertisement" route. this portion is very difficult to prove. BTW, i hear that Ms Peters' is charging like $15 for her evidence - which I don't think that's cool. anyways, all you really should pursue is the fact that the software screwed up your car. if you had you have a mileage log (cost/gallon, gallons purchased, date, MPG's, etc) that would more or less prove your case. fortunately for me, i had ALL this information as i logged every mile i drove into an excel spreadsheet. It was clear that i was getting worse gas mileage after the software upgrade as compared to before the upgrade. that alone is evidence that Honda did something to your car and should be liable for the degradation in the efficiency. also, if you have a video of the IMA and how it does not give you sufficient recharging of the battery, that should be enough to prove that the car is not performing to when you first test drove and purchased your car. it'll show that the lack of battery assist is insufficient and at the cost of the consumer. you can probably get your gas purchases by sorting your credit card purchases online and noting how more frequently you have had to refill your tank - showing loss of efficiency. keep harping on the software and tell them that this was a mandate to be done - whether you wanted it or not and it screwed up your car.
unfortunately, i screwed up my claim as i didn't modify the dollar amount and what i wanted to sue for as originally, all i wanted was a little bit of gas and a replacement battery. i got a replacement battery when Honda saw that it was 23%, but they wouldn't give me any compensation for gas, so i continued my suit, but didn't realize all this legal crap that i had to file an admendment if i wanted other compensation...S*ck. either way, i think i'll get something, but it won't be much as, like i said, i screwed up. every time we file a suit, Honda has to send an internal lawyer and a company rep which will cost them travel + time spent and this will cost them in other ways as compared to just paying out the small claims. either way, if i win, it's still a win for every one of us Honda owners, no matter the monetary value. it just keeps on subtracting from their reputation.
good luck
obviously, i commend her for taking this small claims so public. the commissioner who did mine set ours up last as it was going to take a long time and there were no one else other than me and honda and the court folks. the judge was really questioning the on why honda had to implement this software and that people cannot back out of it since the majority of the compaints from people are more about the software and what it did to the cars than anything else.
if you have evidence that you're getting worse performance and mileage, then you are well on your way to a small claims. if you want a copy of what i presented, drop me an email and i can send it to you to help you out.
Abnormal battery behavior for last 3 weeks
First change
IMA light came on on two very cold (~0 degrees F) mornings. Light went out next time I started the car, after driving about 20 minutes. Battery charge about 2/3 while IMA not functioning. IMA functioned normally (as far as I recall) after light went out.
Second change noticed (might have started before first)
Abnormal charging - charging while going up slight to moderate inclines, with battery charge at 2/3 or more. IMA starts assisting with battery a bit less than fully charged. Don't recall seeing battery charge dropping below 50%.
Third change
After a 0 degree F night, engine started roughly. IMA battery at 3 bars. After driving 14 minutes, battery charge at about 90%. IMA started assisting on demand before battery had reached 50% charge.
Question
Wondering whether I have a failing battery or a bad IMA controller that isn't charging at the appropriate times?
Yes, the update was performed.
More strange behavior
When I started the car this afternoon, the battery meter showed 2 bars. Again, after about 10 minutes, it showed the battery fully charged. Some of the bars even appeared without the Charging indicator lighting up, and the rest without much charging. I wish I could fill the fuel tank without pumping any gas.
So, it sounds like your dealer was able to check the battery somehow. What can you tell me about how they did that? Can you give me any information about the engineers working on it in Japan? I'd like to pass the info on to my dealer.
Meanwhile, my onboard computer gave P0A80 as an trouble code. It was explained as an "IMA code." Do you know if your car produced any trouble codes? If so, what were they?
I don't know if the dealer quietly updated the software without telling me, or if it's just that the weather lately has been ideal.
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Or, they're taking the easiest route and will hit you with the other components when they actually test it.
I suggest you steer clear of the dealer and contact an independent mechanic. It will save you money. What city/state are you in? I may be able to recommend someone.