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Honda Civic Hybrid IMA Problems

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Comments

  • kennyntk02kennyntk02 Member Posts: 4
    For those who wish to opt out of the ridiculous Class Action Settlement: visit this link, print the form out, and mail it to them(address included in the form) before 2/12/2012.

    http://www.dontsettlewithhonda.org/#!opt-out
  • james700james700 Member Posts: 1
    Hey...

    I was reading an article about Hybrids and there was a theory that Hybrid fuel economy really sucks in colder weather. The batteries do not have the same juice they have in Sunny California.

    If you are driving in sub zero weather this might explain your higher fuel consumption. Your gas engine works extra hard in winter months... Something to consider when weighing the options of a hybrid vs 4 cylinder...

    Cheers,

    James700
  • mabecanemabecane Member Posts: 46
    The IMA battery that is used in the HCH also suffer from extreme heat.
    In a couple of hours I'm bringing my 06 HCH to the dealer, my car ran fine for 80k but lately the battery is showing signs of deterioration, I get the dreaded P0A7F code, the IMA light comes and goes, now the check engine light is on. Still the same code showing when checked with the OBDII code reader. I probably will have the battery replaced. It really sucks, I was planing to keep this car for a long time. Anyway today is the day. Go Heather!
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    Winter does affect the fuel economy of hybrids, but the battery is not a very large part of it. The hybrid battery in a Honda is fed cabin air to cool (and heat) it. It also generates heat from use. Within a few minutes of driving, the battery has come up to a usable 60 or so degrees (F) and the car will keep it between that and a normal high of 105 degrees. (max operating is 140F and emergency shutdown temp is 160F)

    That means that fuel economy will suffer until the car warms up. This same drop happens in any car - hybrid or conventional and is worse in the winter because it takes longer to heat up.

    What plays a larger roll is gas formulation. In the winter, the additives that are put into gasoline are changed to improve emissions with the lower temperature. These additives affect fuel economy in all cars, but we see it more in hybrids because "x percent drop" is a bigger number in a hybrid.

    I just drove across the country (I70) and averaged 58 mpg in my 2000 Insight. The same trip in early September in a 2001 Insight Oof identical performance was 64 mpg with the AC on.

    On a side note, gasoline is modified for altitude as well. In Denver, they sell 85, 87 and 91 octane gas, and it was $2.99 a gallon in mid January. The octane is lower because of the thinner air. I have no idea what impact it would have on economy because I didn't get any gas in Colorado.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    P0A7F = "Battery functioning below 10% of original 6.6Ah capacity"

    In other words, your battery has deteriorated severely and is "worn out". It isn't going to magically get better, so a replacement is due.

    We find that heat does play a role in this. Arizona and southern Texas vehicles suffer from this at an earlier age than other parts of the country (strangely, New Mexico seems to have less cars, so we don't see as many of them, or perhaps altitude plays a role?). Upon examination, we also find that the uppermost cells in the pack are significantly weaker than the lower ones. Heat rises.
  • mabecanemabecane Member Posts: 46
    edited January 2012
    I'm back from the Honda dealer, and sure enough they jerked me around.
    They tested the car and came with this statement on the service sheet

    "Code POA7F stored for high voltage battery capacity serious deterioration, updated PCM and IMA ( the freaking update) system updates.road tested car,light did not come back on. If light comes back on will need new IMA battery, aprox $2750 installed

    Before I told them that it was under warranty, they were going to order a new battery, when they asked me to leave a deposit for it I told them about the federal 10 year/150k warranty and they argued that the warranty was 8/80k. So back to their pc and scratched their chins and sure enough,there it was 10y/150k. But they still wanted to make sure that my model qualified. It must be a PZEV model, then I told them it was, but they looked under the hood and after deliberation they agreed. I can't understand why I have to wait for a new battery. I told I would be back soon.
    I can tell the update changed my IMA assist, it won't idle at stop signs and won't kick in going up steep hills. The ride to my house was only 8 miles.
    That code better come back soon.
    Now I feel better for opting out of the settlement. :mad:
  • mabecanemabecane Member Posts: 46
    edited February 2012
    I received three phone calls two from Honda headquarters and one from my Honda dealer.
    Honda headquarters wanted to listen to my complaints and rate my satisfaction with the services I received during my visit with the dealer last week. So far still no battery replacement, My dealer manually erased the P0A7F code off my car brain then installed the 10-034 update that I refused in writing last year. The dealer never told me they were going to instal it this time. Their argument is "we erased the faulty code to install the update and wait to see if it comes back. Even with a new battery I'm stuck with that update. As soon as I drove the car home I could tell the car was not the same, my mileage dropped an other 4mpg since.
    I'm really ticked off, the dealer acted like my warranty was over at (87k) and then tried hard to disregard the 10y/150 miles extended warranty saying my model has to be a pzev type low emissions, which it is. I had to point the markings under the hood for them.
    At first they told me I need a new battery and sent me to the cashier's desk to leave a deposit to order the battery to the cost of $2750, when I told them it was a warranty repair and I did not have to give them any money their tune changed and gave me the update BS story that it was Honda's protocol regarding installing new IMA batteries they sent me home.
    The dealer blames Honda corp and Honda blames the dealer for not being fully aware the warranty. Typical! Meanwhile "WE" the consumer get stuck holding the bag. This is not over, I gave the dealer a rating of 2 out of 5 on the phone to Honda corp. BBB received my complaint, I have the package from them for me to fill the details and send them my documents. Even if I get satisfaction I'm not happy getting a battery that will again fail prematurely, I want to keep the car a long time. Getting an aftermarket better battery with more capacity may be an option for me later.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    However, in good faith, you should give the update a chance to work. In some cases it does correct a P0A7F and bring the condition up to a healthy level. You need to separate the idiot dealer that you're dealing with and Honda the manufacturer. From my reading of your posts, Honda has been willing to replace your battery after the update has been given a chance to do its thing if it doesn't work, right? I personally think that is a reasonable approach given the real chance that a replacement won't be needed (maybe 30%).

    Your dealer is the problem right now. They are the ones who are interpreting the warranties incorrectly and being had nosed.

    Let's see how you do over the next couple of weeks.

    BTW, the dealer does have to order the battery from Honda and it does take a few days to arrive.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I went the update route with a bad battery. It didn't resolve the problem. The battery was then replaced and everything is fine now. The mileage is slightly better than it was before I had the battery problem. Of course, I don't know how long this battery will last.
  • hpdriverhpdriver Member Posts: 18
    Congrats, Heather!!! Job well done. Judge agreed it was fraud - just like all the Civic Hybrid owners already knew.

    But now Honda will bring out their hot-shot attorneys for the appeal. Good luck Heather.

    What a terrible, sad, company. NEVER BUY ANOTHER HONDA!!! And tell your friends and family this story so that they will know the truth: Honda SUCKS!!!
  • mabecanemabecane Member Posts: 46
    My Honda dealer installed last week the July 2010 10-034 update on my car without my consent.
    Can it be removed
    and if it can
    Does anyone had it removed.

    I refused the update in writing on the work order but they went along.
    Can someone send me a copy of the July 2010 letter informing HCH owner to have the update installed by their dealer.
    The letter mentioned that "not installing the update would not void the IMA warranty".
  • viawviaw Member Posts: 34
    here's a link to the actual judgement.
    http://documents.latimes.com/honda-civic-hybrid-suit/
  • mabecanemabecane Member Posts: 46
    The update was installed a week ago, now the idle is high at stop signs, the stop idle non existent, the battery recalls 4 or 5 times on the way to work and back. Two bars or one then straight up to full then down again to 4 or 5. My car never acted that way before. I called Honda Headquarters and ask them if they could take the update off, even my wife complains how the car acts up. The dealer is supposed to call me back regarding the update. One bad cold night and I'm sure the code will be back. I hate this thing right now.
  • rosie2006rosie2006 Member Posts: 22
    Just as a side note, the first software update actually consisted of 3 parts, when they installed it on mine, they neglected to do all of them, another dealer reinstalled and informed me of it. It ran like crap, better after that, then when this last BIG update came out, I was informed that I could not register my vehicle unless it was done. The first 2 fill ups were great, even reached 44 mpg for the first time and maintained it until the next fill up. Since then the vehicle does whatever it wants to, my frustration level has gone down since this all started in 09 but omg, I was so aggravated and frustrated with AHC, so glad Heather Peters has made so much headway, I too have opted out in hopes of proceeding in Small Claims Court. Mine is a 2006 Civic Hybrid, bought April of 2006, first and last Honda I would buy.
  • gegegegegege Member Posts: 1
    Based on my experience you did not have to wait long. My 2 ½ year old 2009 Civic Hybrid is on its third battery pack with 2 replacements in the last 30 days and lights came on again last evening. This time it was about 2 weeks since the previous battery pack replacement, 1st replacement kept the light off for 3 hours. Like others have reported my mpg has been dropping slowly since car was new and before the 1st battery replacement I could rarely break the 40 MPG barrier anymore on the highway. Concede 1 or 2 mpg to no longer having low rolling resistance tires but overall the mpg is consistently less than when car was new. Have not taken a long trip with a new battery pack as the light will not stay off long enough to get out of town. I had no illusions the vehicle would achieve the sticker mpg but even so the vehicle has not met my expectations as I did expect it to maintain or improve its mpg after the vehicle was broken in but the opposite has happened, I achieved the highest mpg (upper 40s) on a trip about 45 days after I purchased the car and on the identical road trip many times, the vehicle never achieved that high mpg again, plus it has proven to be unreliable as it has spent more time in the dealer's shop than any vehicle I have owned in recent memory, I have even had same check engine & IMA trouble light issues before which the dealer cured it 2 years ago with cold weather software update. Vehicle has 36,000 miles & Honda has covered all work under warranty but I still wish I had never purchased this vehicle. Don't get me started on the auto climate control system operation, what was Honda thinking; not to mention the CVT transmission will hardly allow the car to accelerate from a dead stop on an uphill incline with the A/C on, Honda needs a manual transmission option so the vehicle can have a legitimate low gear ratio. I have not driven one and have no plan to but I hope they have tweaked the low end performance of the CVT in newer models.
  • viawviaw Member Posts: 34
    Honda will respond back with "Honda engineers deem this as normal as the battery 'may' drain according to the software update notice". Tell them that their engineers are idiots as it is clear to me that the software downgrade is the culprit for the even more frequent recals. Tell them to send your car to get a diagnostic and then have them print out the battery usage life on your IMA as this also happened to me and this was a direct result of the battery life degrading. It was at 23% and they replaced my battery. I would tell the reps/engineers that if this was a computer and it would periodically "crash" once a month, even once/week, that may be considered normal. But when you have your computer crash once every 10 minutes (most likely this is your situation), then there is a problem with your computer and it needs to be rebuilt. they have already "programmed" into their diagnostic testing that the battery drain "may" occur, so doing a diagnostic will not tell you that there is a problem. so it's the fox watching the chicken coop. this 'recal' amounts to your hybrid not being a hybrid anymore as it is always on gas and will not auto-stop at a stop.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    This is so contrary to my experience I am led to believe you must have something bad wrong with your car that they have not diagnosed that causes your battery to deterioate quickly. If they can't fix it they should give you another one.
  • mcdorianmcdorian Member Posts: 5
    I live next door to a honda dealer mechanic and he told me that he's only seen a few IMA batteries fail after large milage but our 2009 civic's IMA battery failed after 3 years / 32k miles. I knew when we bought the care the the quoted 40 city / 45 highway mileage was only of ideal driving conditions. We like the car so I don't care about the mileage - we were averaging 35 before the battery problems, but I'm worried that these packs will keep on failing and that the warranty won't be honored. The dealer I bought the car from said that the warranty is 10 years / 100k and I read on the site it's 10 years / 150k in the state we live in, while the dealer where we got the pack replaced said the new one is guaranteed for 12 months. I'm calling Honda America on Monday.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    It would be interesting to know the failure rate on these batteries. My understanding is that replaced batteries under the original warranty are good until the original warranty expires. A battery replaced outside of the original warranty is guaranteed for three years.
  • mcdorianmcdorian Member Posts: 5
    Thanks. I'll verify it with Honda. It seems from this thread it seems that dealers are not aware.
  • viawviaw Member Posts: 34
    the dealers are idiots.
  • mabecanemabecane Member Posts: 46
    dealers are not aware is an understatement. Most dealers choose to ignore most of the complaints and blamed them on poor driving habits or just play dumb. They do not deserve our business. :lemon:
  • mcdorianmcdorian Member Posts: 5
    Turns out that my model is a low emissions one so the warrenty is 150k mikes or 15 years. Otherwise it would be 80k or 8 years.
  • viawviaw Member Posts: 34
    hi folks,
    i had my small claims court hearing in Pleasanton, CA today. My case was actually supposed to have been heard a month ago (actually a few days after Heather Peter's case). But got delayed cuz i hadn't served Honda properly. anyways, i think it went very well.
    if you plan on opting out and pursuing your own case, i would suggest that you be well prepared. i think that you folks should NOT pursue this "false advertisement" route. this portion is very difficult to prove. BTW, i hear that Ms Peters' is charging like $15 for her evidence - which I don't think that's cool. anyways, all you really should pursue is the fact that the software screwed up your car. if you had you have a mileage log (cost/gallon, gallons purchased, date, MPG's, etc) that would more or less prove your case. fortunately for me, i had ALL this information as i logged every mile i drove into an excel spreadsheet. It was clear that i was getting worse gas mileage after the software upgrade as compared to before the upgrade. that alone is evidence that Honda did something to your car and should be liable for the degradation in the efficiency. also, if you have a video of the IMA and how it does not give you sufficient recharging of the battery, that should be enough to prove that the car is not performing to when you first test drove and purchased your car. it'll show that the lack of battery assist is insufficient and at the cost of the consumer. you can probably get your gas purchases by sorting your credit card purchases online and noting how more frequently you have had to refill your tank - showing loss of efficiency. keep harping on the software and tell them that this was a mandate to be done - whether you wanted it or not and it screwed up your car.
    unfortunately, i screwed up my claim as i didn't modify the dollar amount and what i wanted to sue for as originally, all i wanted was a little bit of gas and a replacement battery. i got a replacement battery when Honda saw that it was 23%, but they wouldn't give me any compensation for gas, so i continued my suit, but didn't realize all this legal crap that i had to file an admendment if i wanted other compensation...S*ck. either way, i think i'll get something, but it won't be much as, like i said, i screwed up. every time we file a suit, Honda has to send an internal lawyer and a company rep which will cost them travel + time spent and this will cost them in other ways as compared to just paying out the small claims. either way, if i win, it's still a win for every one of us Honda owners, no matter the monetary value. it just keeps on subtracting from their reputation.
    good luck
  • mabecanemabecane Member Posts: 46
    edited February 2012
    The software is my main beef. I have it in writing not to install it and they did. Now the car drives like a regular civic but with more fuel consumption. My car actually regenerate going up hills. That is worse than no battery assist. They really messed up. I think Heather is trying to help. She won't get rich on the 15 bucks.
  • viawviaw Member Posts: 34
    i agree, won't get rich off $15...but just post the material and have people look. she already has a site posting everything else.
    obviously, i commend her for taking this small claims so public. the commissioner who did mine set ours up last as it was going to take a long time and there were no one else other than me and honda and the court folks. the judge was really questioning the on why honda had to implement this software and that people cannot back out of it since the majority of the compaints from people are more about the software and what it did to the cars than anything else.
    if you have evidence that you're getting worse performance and mileage, then you are well on your way to a small claims. if you want a copy of what i presented, drop me an email and i can send it to you to help you out.
  • tinkericktinkerick Member Posts: 4
    2003 Honda Civic hybrid, 49K miles

    Abnormal battery behavior for last 3 weeks

    First change
    IMA light came on on two very cold (~0 degrees F) mornings. Light went out next time I started the car, after driving about 20 minutes. Battery charge about 2/3 while IMA not functioning. IMA functioned normally (as far as I recall) after light went out.

    Second change noticed (might have started before first)
    Abnormal charging - charging while going up slight to moderate inclines, with battery charge at 2/3 or more. IMA starts assisting with battery a bit less than fully charged. Don't recall seeing battery charge dropping below 50%.

    Third change
    After a 0 degree F night, engine started roughly. IMA battery at 3 bars. After driving 14 minutes, battery charge at about 90%. IMA started assisting on demand before battery had reached 50% charge.

    Question
    Wondering whether I have a failing battery or a bad IMA controller that isn't charging at the appropriate times?
  • calgary5calgary5 Member Posts: 5
    Hi, I'm in Calgary and the same started happening to me. It seems to be stemming from the Warranty recall computer update in the summer of 2011. Did your dealer update the computer? My car has now been with the dealer for 4 weeks, the battery and everything checks out. They are waiting for a response from the engineers in Japan.
  • tinkericktinkerick Member Posts: 4
    Interesting.

    Yes, the update was performed.

    More strange behavior
    When I started the car this afternoon, the battery meter showed 2 bars. Again, after about 10 minutes, it showed the battery fully charged. Some of the bars even appeared without the Charging indicator lighting up, and the rest without much charging. I wish I could fill the fuel tank without pumping any gas.

    So, it sounds like your dealer was able to check the battery somehow. What can you tell me about how they did that? Can you give me any information about the engineers working on it in Japan? I'd like to pass the info on to my dealer.

    Meanwhile, my onboard computer gave P0A80 as an trouble code. It was explained as an "IMA code." Do you know if your car produced any trouble codes? If so, what were they?
  • calgary5calgary5 Member Posts: 5
    I didn't notice any wierd battery charge/discharge when the car was running. The first time it got cold in Nov the dealer got an intermittent flashing code 56(not stored - not retrived with HDS). During their testing they also got code P1600. The dealer connected their diag to "techline" they advised to repace the IMA battery. All was good untill Jan got cold same problem. Haven't seen the car since, I don't have a current report. They say the issue has been elevated to the engineers in Japan.
  • tinkericktinkerick Member Posts: 4
    So, they replaced the battery and the problem reappeared when the weather turned cold (suggesting the battery wasn't the problem). Is that what happened?
  • jerrysnbjerrysnb Member Posts: 4
    I brought my 2009 HCH in to have a door seal replaced a few weeks ago, and ever since then the behavior of the battery meter has changed. I no longer see those recalibration swings, and it seems that I get more IMA than I used to.

    I don't know if the dealer quietly updated the software without telling me, or if it's just that the weather lately has been ideal.
  • calgary5calgary5 Member Posts: 5
    Yes, it essentially ruled out a bad battery. It probably would have been just fine this winter without the computer update in the summer. Apparently they can't put an older update back in. this is odd because I work in an industry that we can backdate code if something goes wrong. Apparently the auto industry (Honda) can't. So now I wait.
  • nyhondanyhonda Member Posts: 13
    Folks, it is not only the HCH owners who have been defrauded. My 2006 purchase qualified me for a US Federal Income Tax credit of approximately $2200.00. The United States Government has been ripped off also!
  • tinkericktinkerick Member Posts: 4
    Bummer! Good luck.
  • mcdorianmcdorian Member Posts: 5
    Technically it qualified for the tax deduction if it met mileage & emission standards. What's questionable is mileage. I got mine in 2009 and it did / does get between 40 & 45 miles/gallon, but only if cruising on a flat / even road @ 50 mi/hour. What's strange is that Honda is or least was selling low emission hybrids too. My IMA / engine light's started coming on 1 year when it was really cold, and was reset. Came on again recently and the battery was replaced. Hybrids aren't as efficient when its too cold or hot. Mine's under warranty for 15 years / 150k miles because its low emission, so I'll take the $ & run otherwise I would not have settled because the warranty for the low emission version is 8 years / 80k miles + 12k (for settlement)
  • sweiford88sweiford88 Member Posts: 1
    I'm thinking of buying a used 2006 HCH with 52k miles. Selling for 11k. Do you know if all the problems with the batteries have been resolved by Honda? Would you recommend buying this car? Any advice is much appreciated!
  • hybridpatsyhybridpatsy Member Posts: 7
    Do NOT buy this car!!! I got rid of mine at a loss because they not only do not get the expected mileage but the car was unsafe. Without a good IMA the car has no pickup.in heat or cold the IMA drains to nothing rapidly. Find another car with good mileage and save yourself the trouble and expense of this car.
  • mabecanemabecane Member Posts: 46
    Do not buy that car. You will end up with someone else problems. Honda is not fixing the faulty IMA battery. You will end up with a regular Civic with a big battery in the back seat. Mine actually regenerates going up hill which is is really more fuel consuming than a non hybrid. The battery deteriorates prematurely. That 06 may be giving you some good mileadge but it won't last . My 06 started to give me IMA troubles after 80k,to make matters worse the dealer installed the dreaded update to the software and now the car is twice as bad. Don't do it you will regret it. Check the nhtsa web site complaints page for the 06 and 07 HCH. You'll get a better idea. And right now Honda has no plans for fixing the battery. Just denials. Good luck. Do the right thing.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    The battery on my 06 went out at about 90K miles. The battery was replaced and the software upgraded. I now have about 104K miles and my mileage is consistently above 50 mpg. I guess I am one of the lucky ones. However, I do agree there is a battery problem with these cars. Don't know how long mine will perform well and that concerns me.
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  • sak6sak6 Member Posts: 8
    Yesterday when i started my Vehicle, my IMA battery charge was around 80-90%. On Way to Office after driving about 2 miles, I found that IMA charge level went to 0% and i did see Charge is NOT happening, so I drove right away to my dealer. I had CEL, IMA light ON. I stopped at dealer and went to describe the service man and when he came and started, I did see the charge was happening and had CEL and IMA light ON. So the dealer updated Software and they said lights are gone but its not Charging and its due to MCM module issue. yesterday evening i took car from dealer it had just CEL light ON but IMA light OFF. I drove right to Autozone to check the code and it was P1600 and P1575 codes. Not sure what these codes are? Could some one give me more info on these codes please. Is MCM an issue? Drive seems smooth and i do see Charge and Assist happening normal.
  • mcdorianmcdorian Member Posts: 5
    If nobody answers I'll dig them up either from my mechanic or my next door neighbor who's a Honda dealer mechanic. They should be posted for all to see & the Feds had to pass a law for them to be published at all. On the other hand the codes may be erroneous &"volatile" - they changed and got lost in my case. Note that unless a dealer fixes it, it may breach of warranty, I don't know. This happened to us & 32K miles. You'd better find out the length of warranty on the battery - it costs 2-4 k to replace it, and I heard newer ones are better. The civic is reliable and fun to drive but if we knew about the battery / programming issues, we wouldn't have bought out our lease last year but we may have traded for a non hybrid.
  • sak6sak6 Member Posts: 8
    Same issue back this morning too. Car was idle on Sunday and back again same issue Monday morning start. This item IMA light came on. Mine is 2003 HCH and 108K miles, so I am out of Warranty now. But whenever i give it to dealer, they only say MCM Module is the issue. Is this somehting related to battery causing them to believe as MCM Module? What are the options for New IMA battery and warranty on these?
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    The MCM module is only one of the potential problems that can cause a P1575. If they have followed the testing instructions, then they have eliminated the MPI module, the Battery module and the wiring in between all these components.

    Or, they're taking the easiest route and will hit you with the other components when they actually test it.

    I suggest you steer clear of the dealer and contact an independent mechanic. It will save you money. What city/state are you in? I may be able to recommend someone.
  • sak6sak6 Member Posts: 8
    I live in Bartlesville, OK. I would appreciate if you could provide any mechanic who would help me on this.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    Unfortunately, everyone I know is either 10 hours east of you or west. It's not a hard thing to test. You could test it yourself. Email me directly and I'll send you all the information you need. You're talking a $20 investment in tools if you don't have them already.
  • sak6sak6 Member Posts: 8
    I would appreciate if you could guide me testing and what tools needed or to pruchase. I have sent email to you. could you please check and update me.
  • calgary5calgary5 Member Posts: 5
    The dealer has installed the latest computer code for my 2003 Civic Hybrid. Honda Japan only took 2 1/2 months to come up with a fix. The car is now driveable again. I probably won’t be able to test the cold weather symptoms until fall. Its too warm here now. I hope they got it. Ask your dealer if this is available. They may have fixed other issues too.
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