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Meanwhile, my MPG continued to drop, hitting 27 MPG this past week. I'm trading it in for a MINI Cooper Clubman today, which gets better MPG, ironically enough.
I'm sending a letter to the Attorney General of the state of Illinois to ask them to investigate Honda's practices on this. Essentially, Honda is telling you when you purchase the car that you will get over 40 MPG, and then they disable the feature that allows that. That is shameful behavior.
I would encourage everyone else having the same problem to notify state authorities of your suspicions about Honda's business practices. Then copy American Honda on the letter.
Peace,
Pastor Keith
If you work for Honda, it's really not appropriate for you to be doing their propaganda on this forum without identifying yourself as an employee or agent.
Keith
> out of a Honda customer service letter...and has the same snotty edge as the
>response I got over the phone from them.
>
>If you work for Honda, it's really not appropriate for you to be doing their propaganda
>on this forum without identifying yourself as an employee or agent.
No, I do not work for Honda. I own Hybrid-Battery-Repair. Please feel free to call me to discuss it if you feel that my answers are snotty. I take care not to promote my business here, just to let people know that there is an alternative to a $3000 dealer bill.
Each of you has experienced one battery failure. I have experienced my own battery failure in my 2001 Insight and had the added problem of it being out of warranty (2000-2002 Insights cost $4800 for a battery and computer modules).
The difference is that I have dealt with hundreds of people with battery problems or failures and I have examined hundreds of failed batteries. I can offer some information based on what I have seen.
1. LOTS of batteries die at about 7 years with 160,000 miles on the cars.
2. There is no fundamental difference between the technology of the gen 1 (2003-2005) batteries and the gen 2 (2006+) batteries other than the addition of 10% more cells. There is no reason to believe that the newer ones are any more or less reliable given the same programming.
3. The new updates for both generations and the Insight are designed to extend the battery life and they negatively impact the gas mileage of some drivers (notably the ones who use the battery the least).
4. Once the battery is a year or more old, every time the car is left sitting for more than 3 days, it does a tiny amount of damage to the battery (throws the battery balance off by a little bit). These accumulate and longer stretches do more damage. Eventually this will kill the battery. Parking the car for 90 days straight guarantees a P1447 or P1433 or PA07F error nine months later plus or minus two months.
Is that snotty? I don't think so. Is it helpful? I hope so.
Chapsffc
Maybe the problem here is that we're dealing with two separate issues: battery failure and MPG drop due to IMA reprogramming. I suspect that the folks who had battery failure and replacements were also subjected to the IMA reprogram, and may not realize that's what happened.
I reacted to your comments because you seem to be blaming the owners, or at least what you perceive as our ignorance...and that came across as a defense of what I see as an indefensible practice on the part of Honda that has nothing to do with how batteries behave...this is about how companies behave, as I see it.
>least what you perceive as our ignorance...and that came across as a defense of
>what I see as an indefensible practice on the part of Honda that has nothing to do
>with how batteries behave...this is about how companies behave, as I see it.
I'm not defending Honda, but I can see why they've done what they have done. From a technical standpoint, they have come up with a "reasonable" (at least to them) solution. The updates are designed to make the battery last longer. Without them, it appears that you're looking at about 7-8 years max. It is hard to pin down exactly what the new updates are doing in a Civic because it is a CVT and the driver is not as informed about what the engine and transmission are doing as it is in a manual transmission Insight. Insight owners can even quantify the mpg changes that 5lbs of air pressure in the tires will give and how seasonal gas changes and temperatures affect MPG - because they are more "into" mpg savings (or they wouldn't have bought an Insight) and because the lighter weight, smaller engine and manual transmission allow you to feel the effects better than the cushier ride of the 4 cylinder Civic.
Multiple Insight owners have reported that the upgraded software makes the car more likely to regen when the SOC gauge (battery gauge) is below half and that it is much more likely to assist if the SOC is above half. This has an extreme effect on the mpg of hypermilers and those that drive with a very light touch and almost never use the battery. Drivers with a heavier touch or even a lead foot don't see as much of a change because the percentage change is smaller.
The Insight and Civic (and even the Civic 1 and Civic 2) software updates may or may not be comparable. I believe that they take the same approach toward battery longevity, so they should have similar effects on mileage. How you drive will affect how much your mileage will change with the new updates.
What I did react to was the person who said that their car was a deathtrap when the battery recal'd. During that time, there is no assist available, and the person claimed that the car was unsafe to drive. To that I responded that every one of us has used enough assist to run out of battery power. At that point, the car is not unsafe, so why would a normal recal event be unsafe? Inconvenient? Yes. Annoying? Definitely. But unsafe? No.
Recals are a normal corrective feature of the IMA system to adapt to the changing capacity of the battery as it ages. It is perfectly normal to get an occasional recal (like one a year or so), but when they happen frequently, it is a sign that the battery is deteriorating rapidly.
First time is was I had the oil changed somewhere else.... so I did the oil change with them and no difference.
Then they said it was my driving or my choice of fuel, but I am the same driver using the same gas stations as before when I was getting 55 MPG.
ON the 4th and final check before I filed the complaint, the dealership opend my trunk and took pictures of the brochures I had (50 lbs) and told me it was the weight of the cars.
He also told me I had worn tires and cupping on the back tires.
Indeed, the tires I had purchased 4 months ago, after wearing out the other tires were now having unusal wear.
What he did not tell me is that Honda has a service bulletin on 2006-2008 HCH which causes those models to wear excessively due to faulty axel rods(Ask for bulletin 08-001.
Before I found out about the bulletin, I had the car completely services by them including new tires, oil change and tune up. I gave my wife (110lbs) the car to drive for a week and used Chevron gas for that tank.
I empty the trunk and guess what... no difference...
Now I have not tried to rig the car to work without a driver, but I am certain the MPG would not change if I did. When I found out about the service bulletin, the dealership told me that they did not tell me about the bulletin because I did not complain of the wearing of the tires....
While true, the dearler ship checked the car from top to bottom and that included filling the tires to the reccomended pressure. Now can anyone imagine Honda checking this car from top to bottom under treat of a lemmon law suit and not noticing the tire wear untill just after the warranty expired ?
On the 4th and final exam of the car, he finnally found the worn tires eve;n though I did not complain about the worn tires on that visit. He also never told me about the service bulletin which I had gotten from another dealer.
Long and short, something is wrong with the HCH when so many people are complaining of MPG drops around the 25K mark.
I also notice a number of the complaints occuring after the first or second service when the dealership updates the software in the car.
It has to be either electrical or software related. When the examined the car, it always registered ok on their computer checks (or so they say). I also had my right rear passenger window fail in the beginning although I am not sure it's related.
Bottom line, File a complaint under the lemon law if you have owned the car less than 24 months. I am going a step further and getting my dealership and Honda on the local news and picketing them on weekends with a wheelbarrel full of lemons for all to see.
Wanna bet Honda will be begging me to take my money back ?
I will keep you posted.
Yes recals are normal or a better word, abnormal now but in the first 1 1/2- 2 years of service they did not exist nor did my old school starter motor start the engine every morning when I head off to work at this point.
The saftey factor is when merging onto the freeway with all the other speedy California drivers and trying to get to the rideshare lane to use my ride alone sticker that I waited so long for "and the only reason I bought this car, mileage was secondary" I go from 4-5 bars to zip very unexpectedly. Now I have a 3000 lb 1300 cc slug that will not get out of it's own way with a 4x4 Dodge Ram or a semi licking my rear bumper, not safe and very unnerving!
The bottom line is these cars are not the same as when we bought them and we are being decieved. How would anyone feel if that beautiful 52 inch color led that you just bought turned into a black and white led after 2 years and the manufacturer would not listen to you.....or believe you...how would you feel.
We looked at many cars before we bought the Hybrid that looked better and were faster, cooler, handled great, etc that are getting the same mileage or better than I am getting now, I just wanted that %*&% ride share sticker.
I can't sell this car now and feel good about it and I can't put my loved ones in it and feel confident. I am stuck and that is a really crappy feeling. It's a shame that it will probably take a Toyota situation to take care of our vehicles, of course if that happens their value will go down, catch 22.
I am done venting, off to work in my car that use to exceed all my expectations. Thank goodness it is only 8 miles to work..downhill...and I will experience my usual daily recal, with a half battery, at the 4 mile mark.
I bought my hch in May of 09 and it ran fine until December 10th of 09 when the ima light came on and was taken into the dealer that day. Dealer said they did not find anything wrong but updated software. I didn't pay attention to the paper work at the time but did comment that a new car should not need an update so soon. After the update I noticed the milage dropped to around 28 mpg in town and 36 mpg on the highway when it was 38/46 before. Took the car back in and the dealer said eveything is fine and the reduced milage is due to "winter fuel" and longer warm up time. Today I did some internet research and found this site. After looking at my Dec. paperwork I found it said code POA7F IMA battery low charged so now things are making sense. I don't believe the dealer and after reading this forum on ima problems I contacted Honda America to complain and get a paper trail started. By the way, the lady I talked to had no knowldege of an "ima" problem with the hybrids.
That is a pretty clear indication that the update is working at it's designed purpose - to extend the life of the battery. I wouldn't have thought a P0A7F was recoverable.
The problem is that they're doing it at the expense of mpg.
Then again, it has only been two months since you had it updated.
BTW, "winter fuel" and cold temperatures are a legitimate reason for a drop of that type, but not usually that much. I get 60 in the winter vs 80 in the summer in my Insight. Your drop is probably due to the reprogramming, however.
Trade that sucker in and if enough of us do it, the values will drop...
My husband has a 2004 HCH with about 86000 miles on it. Over the summer, he brought the car in because the IMA light came on and the battery started draining while he was just sitting at a light. By the time we got to take it to the dealer, the light was off, and it didn't throw an error code so they told us it was a fluke. Last week, he went out to start the car and it was completely dead. We had to jump it. No problem... then a few days later it started up with the IMA light again. After three days of it going off and on it started draining the battery again, so we took it to the dealer (again) on the 15th. This time we got a P1649 error code and they told us we needed the part replaced -- $3700.
However, they also told us we could just turn the IMA off and drive the car, if we didn't want to fix it. Car's still being financed with about 3K left on it, and we just don't have 3700 to spend right now, so that's the option we chose for now. This afternoon, he had to get it jumped AGAIN because the starter battery died. (They replaced his battery relatively recently, too.)
I'm still wondering if the two are related.
I'm pretty sure we're SOL because we didn't get the problem officially 'diagnosed' until 86K, but we've had it in for the same thing. I'm going to call Honda and beg for help though, just in case.
At this point, we're debating just unloading the car and buying something else if we can somehow swing it. We're having trouble justifying a repair that is so much on a 6-year-old car and we need both of our cars to be reliable.
Don't forget that the car will use the starter below certain temperatures. The battery can't put out much power at low temp, and the car minimizes its use until it has had a chance to shoot a charge into it to warm it up and thaw all the cells (the electrolyte actually freezes).
I'm not saying this is your problem (and it isn't if you see this behavior in warm weather), but sometimes people don't know about design features of their cars.
I had an Insight customer this fall who was convinced that his freshly repaired battery was bad because the car ceased to auto-stop. I told him that auto-stop wouldn't work below 45(I think) degrees and the weather had just changed. He insisted otherwise until I proved it to him by having him turn off his climate control after which auto-stop magically started working again.
No. EPA for a manual transmission 2001 Insight is 61 city / 68 highway, but most Insight owners can get higher than EPA just by driving gently. I frequently get 80-85 on the highway in the summertime, but rarely get over 65 highway in the winter.
Similar driving techniques in a manual transmission "lean-burn" equipped 2003 Civic get you about 55 city and 65 highway (summer). A CVT 2003-2005 Civic can get about 50 city / 60 highway.
All those numbers reflect cars that have not had the 2007 computer updates.
I can't tell you what a 2006+ Civic or a 2010 Insight get because I've never driven them. I've got half a dozen of their batteries here, but I've never been in one.
shonda3 thinks that I'm smoking something and is not aware that the original 2000-2006 Insight was EPA rated between 66 and 70 mpg highway for all seven years of production.
> brought the car in because the IMA light came on and the battery started draining
> while he was just sitting at a light. By the time we got to take it to the dealer, the
> light was off, and it didn't throw an error code so they told us it was a fluke.
It is unusual for an IMA light to illuminate without a code. To have one illuminate combined with an observed battery event (the negative recal that you saw as the gauge dropped) falls under the category of "dealer lied to you", or your 12V battery was disconnected in the interim which would clear the codes.
> Last week, he went out to start the car and it was completely dead. We had to
> jump it. No problem... then a few days later it started up with the IMA light
> again. After three days of it going off and on it started draining the battery again,
> so we took it to the dealer (again) on the 15th. This time we got a P1649 error
> code
I'll bet you got a P1449. P1649 is an ABS error or a wiring problem to the ABS. They would have simply fixed it.
> and they told us we needed the part replaced -- $3700.
A P1449 would indicate that the battery module needs replacement or repair.
Your warranty ran out at 84,000 miles and Honda "Goodwill" will give you a half-price repair up to 88,000 if you beg and plead and they check with the regional manager.
In most areas of the country, the battery costs about $3000. $3700 is price-gouging. If you're in Los Angeles, then you'll find all of the dealers around want $4000 and none can explain why they cost more than the mid-west, northwest or east. They often claim that shipping is the reason, though the batteries are shipped from southern California.
You can get it repaired for less than the $1850 "goodwill" price.
> However, they also told us we could just turn the IMA off and drive the car, if we
> didn't want to fix it.
I'd really like to know how. It is possible in 2000-2006 Insights, but I'm not aware of a way to get Civics to do it.
> This afternoon, he had to get it jumped AGAIN because the starter battery died.
> (They replaced his battery relatively recently, too.)
If the battery symbol is illuminated on the dash, then you cannot drive the car until you replace, repair or bypass the battery. The car does not have an alternator, and a battery cell is overheating, so the car is shutting down the entire system (for safety) and that means it is not charging the 12V battery.
Contact me if the dealer gives you the runaround and I'll arm you with the service bulletins.
Thanks for all the insight, that is very helpful!
The P1649 error is what is written on the paperwork we got from the dealer when we took it back. (They're charging 3000 for the battery and another 400-500 for the labor.. I'm not sure where the extra money in the total came from yet, since I just noticed that discrepancy. We're in Houston FWIW) I know I questioned the ABS error and they told us it all worked together.
But yeah, my husband switched off the IMA assist, I think -- he hit some button, he said. But he still sees the battery charging when he hits the brakes, so I don't know I believe it's actually off. It's strange. Not my car, so I've only driven it a handful of times.
We're going to take the car somewhere else to get the starter battery checked as well and if it's bad we'll get the dealer to replace is since it was new in October. I don't remember the battery light being on, but it doesn't seem to be holding a charge. It's been dead two days in a row now.
I'm still waiting for Honda USA to get back to me, and they're waiting for the dealer's manager to get back to them as of today. I did see something about service bulletins while researching and asked a different dealer's service department about it, and they said there weren't any that applied to our VIN.
If we can get a goodwill price we may be willing to do it, although this all certainly couldn't have come at a worse time with everything else going on. I'll update more when I hear back from Honda.
wanting to start. This began at 80,000 miles.I have a good dealership who has replaced free the batteries front and back. Honda mgr in charge of area Hondas was the most effective person in assisting me. They wanted to put a part in the starter motor/IMA for $1400. However I balked and they rebuilt it for free, Always go to the manager of service
at the dealership as no-one else understands the system. I have
found calling Honda at corporate ineffective as all they do is call
the dealership and give you some trite answer which does not
solve your problem. My IMA light still goes on and off and the
car does not start from time to time. I jump start it and it goes.
Honda has a worse problem than Toyota as we never know when
the Honda Hybrid will shut down. The system IMA is defective and it
should be a recall. I expected to get 200,000 miles at least on this car.
I now know I won't and it is very unsafe for me.
Also, check with your honda parts dept. on guarntees of IMA and batteries.
> jump start it and it goes.
Why don't you get your codes read and we'll try to help you with it. You can use the tester at Autozone for free.
> The system IMA is defective and it should be a recall.
Actually, it's probably just broken and should be fixed. If your IMA light is coming on, then something is wrong. That something is probably causing your dead batteries. The odds are very good that you will pull a P1449 with the scanner.
I had the same problem with my 09 HCH. Battery has been replaced - under warranty. Have driven another 3000 with no probs so far except a loss of mpg of about 8mpg from when it was brand new.
To sum it up:
I think we all experience great gas mileage when the car was new. Then we all have IMA problems. Then Honda updates the software. Then IMA problems again which leads to new battery.
Problem is mileage has decreased and battery maintains less of a charge (6 bars). In my case, if I drive up any hill for a mile the battery will plummet and the gas engine takes over completely, then the engine screams and begs to be shot. At least mine does.
Way to go Honda. :lemon:
All the lights are on IMA,, SRA, ABS, I get it jumped started and I hold my breath as the battery continues to lose power down to two notches.
I took it on the expressway and it charges up. Thank God. There is no
rhyme or reason for this except a defunct IMA System that is all connected to battery, brakes, starter, etc. They rebuilt the starter previously and it was golden for a few months.
In Feb. and March 2010 my garaged car would not start three times and had no power. Jump starting will work and I just bought an automatic one that you do not need to plug in. It came from Sears. Recalls should have happened as Honda knows there is a big problem. Each time I make sure there is a record at the dealership. They know they cannot fix it. I have brought it in 25 times for this problem.
You are right. It has to be the wiring and I thought they fixed it several months ago. It is happening often now with the light coming on.
You obviously have a bad battery. In most cases, replacing the battery solves the problem, so just as if you had started having transmission problems: give them a chance to fix it. It's under warranty and sometimes things break.
If it isn't fixed properly or it happens again, then let us know, but this problem with your brand-new car falls into the category of "sample defect" meaning that your specific car has a defect (as opposed to "model defect" where they all do).
> (while my foot is still on the brake). It seems to want to accelerate or move, while
> I'm braking. Sometimes, when I stop, the car never goes into auto stop, but stays
> at a 1000 RPM. Has anyone else experienced this? Is this a potential safety issue?
You may have an intermittent problem with the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) or a similar sensor. This would trick the car into thinking that you giving it gas and not trying to come to a stop which would result in it not auto-stopping or coming out of auto-stop prematurely. I don't think it's a low battery condition because of the unwanted acceleration which has nothing to do with the battery.
> All the lights are on IMA,, SRA, ABS, I get it jumped started and I hold my breath
> as the battery continues to lose power down to two notches.
> I took it on the expressway and it charges up. Thank God. There is no
> rhyme or reason for this except a defunct IMA System that is all connected to
> battery, brakes, starter, etc. They rebuilt the starter previously and it was golden for
> a few months.
What you are describing is the car shutting down the IMA system and not charging the front battery (there is no alternator). When the front 12V battery voltage gets too low, the electronics go haywire.
There are several things that can be causing this from a bad battery to a $50 sensor. In order to find out what the problem is, you need to take the car to a mechanic or an AutoZone and read the error codes that are stored in the car's computer. Then we can tell you exactly what is wrong and you can have it fixed.
The problem is that every time the front battery goes dead, the codes are erased. You need to pay attention to the rectangular battery light on the dash. If it lights up, you need to stop driving the car.
I have a 2004 HCH with 245,641 miles on it. My engine light is on and so is my malfunction light. Every now and then I have a little trouble start the car. I know I need to replace the IMA battery... I wonder if anyone knows what battery starts the car? The IMA or the small regular battery? I bought to the dealer and they said my regular battery is still good but I saw the battery light comes on when I have trouble starting my car. Thank you for your help ! Daisy- CA :confuse:
Couple weeks later, battery and IMA lights go on. On the drive to Honda, brake system, steering, headlights, etc. all go on and off until the car dies in the middle of a busy street. No power, even for Hazard lights (at night). After a jump and 10 minutes of charging, it dies immediately after putting it into reverse. ANOTHER jump and I barely get it to the dealer. They replace the front battery and say everything is fine.....one week later, the car dies on the road AGAIN.
Now they say it is a bad relay that only intermittently showed up as bad. Well, it's been a few weeks and after 120 miles, my MPGs are stuck around 25. I could get better mileage with an SUV...
Any suggestions or shoulders to cry on?
> batteries front and back. Honda mgr in charge of area Hondas was the most
> effective person in assisting me. They wanted to put a part in the starter motor/IMA
> for $1400. However I balked and they rebuilt it for free
Probably because your warranty was extended from 80,000 miles to 84,000 miles and you were still covered.
Your 144V battery will start the car unless:
It is depleted
It is very cold outside
Your IMA system is malfunctioning
Please don't go to a dealer and waste your money paying their rates. Any competent mechanic can fix your car. Also, please either pay a mechanic to read your codes or go to an Autozone and read them yourself. Post your codes here and I'll tell you what is wrong with your car.
The dealer has likely "upgraded" your IMA computer (MCM). Now let's see what we can do to increase your mileage.
1. Pump up your tires to 44 PSI
2. Start driving at or below the speed limit. You'll only lose a few minutes a day.
3. Pretend that there is an egg under your foot on top of the gas pedal. Try to drive in such a way that you don't crush the egg.
Try that for a week and see what you get. Let us know.
My wife spoke with the sales manager at the dealership about not trusting the car to work properly. He went to bat for us and convinced Honda to just take the car back (it was leased). We swapped it for a 2010 Civic EX-L, just writing a new lease with the same payments. Doesn't happen often, but if you have a customer-service oriented dealership, then you can get lucky. So, it was a nice experiment, but it just didn't work out.
But there have been many other issues raised in this thread and I wanted to post my comments about them.
Old IMA Battery Failure :confuse:
The batteries seem to fail somewhere between 80,000 and 110,000 miles. This should not really come as a big surprise. Ever had a cell phone or laptop battery fail? These are rechargeable batteries, and they do not last forever. Yes, they are expensive. Nobody complains when tires or brakes need replacement, or even the timing belt, which is hundreds of $. If you read my earlier post on Hybrid economics, you can see that you probably did save more money from better mileage than the cost of the battery replacement, and you used less gas in the process. You are still ahead, just not as much as you would like. The fact that the battery failed after many years of use is not something that you can really blame on Honda.
New Battery Failures and the "Update" :mad:
This does seem to be a problem, but it does not seem to affect every vehicle. Honda told our dealership that they thought they had fixed the problem (I assume they mean the famous "update"). Some people are having problems with the update, but not everyone. I can tell you from my years of troubleshooting complex scientific instruments that this kind of small, seemingly random failure is almost impossible to troubleshoot and fix. (Toyota has a similar problem with their acceleration issue.) I cannot completely fault Honda for this, but they do have some customer service issues to deal with.
Finally, there are two sides to every story and we have not heard from Honda on this forum. That's disappointing. There are also suggestions in this thread that the update is problematic for certain types of driving. I don't know enough about the specifics, but I can see that the screaming is not going to help. We need to find a more effective way of dealing with the issue.
Good luck to all.
1. I will pump up the tires although 44 sounds high to me (DC is notorious for potholes and I don't want to pump them to a dangerous level).
2. Can't help but drive at or below the speed limit in this city, so that's an easy one.
3. I do try to "imagine the egg" thing but the streets are so stop and start, it is hard to find the sweet spot to get through an intersection without more than 3 bars of assist.
Since my post two weeks ago, I've gotten the MPGs all the way up to 26.