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Honda Accord VCM

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Comments

  • indydriverindydriver Member Posts: 620
    Yes, highway miles seem to be a bigger problem for VCM. This was noted in the service bulletin. If you want some more ammo on this topic, try googling "Odyssey oil consumption". All of these vehicles have VCM V6s which is why I bought a Toyota minivan this year.
  • plymouthmaplymouthma Member Posts: 5
    Dealership got response from technical advisor @ Honda, they agree that lower engine block needs replacement, also need to fix rings ( which are in upper block?). (I am not technically savvy re: engines.)They think lower block problem allowing oil to leak and foul plugs. Estimated cost of repair =$6,000. Honda will cover all but $200-300, which i am reasonably happy with given car has 75,000 mi on it. Worry though that this may happen again. I kept my prior 2003 v-6 accord till 200,000mi, not sure if i will get that from this car with VCM.
    I have heard honda hopes software updates will solve this problem but i am not sure if this is proven over time.
  • indydriverindydriver Member Posts: 620
    edited October 2012
    Obviously, any Honda owner would be disappointed with an engine that only lasted 75,000 miles. Can you imagine the new car showroom with a big promotion: "Step right up and get your 75,000 mile Hondas!".

    It is good to see Honda stepping up on a car that is well beyond the warranty period. I think you should be happy with this action. I'd be thinking about trading it though soon after it is repaired.

    'Rings' refers to piston rings that seal the cylinder walls during piston movement keeping combustion elements out of the crankcase and crankcase oil out of the combustion chamber. Note that piston rings were "upgraded" for MY 2011.

    All said, I still believe that these "fixes" are merely bandaids on a bad technology. GM learned it's lesson the hard way but Honda seems intent on betting the ranch on cylinder deactivation. It's a cheap route to gain a little CAFE fleet average bump but the problems created by temperature and pressure differentials and who knows what else empirically reduce life expectancy of this engine. Honda began by stonewalling all their loyal customers and have lost many for good. It appears now they are quietly fixing these engines as they fail. They will never know how many people like me never even considered their product when shopping for minivans earlier this year.
  • lneil06lneil06 Member Posts: 4
    The engine mounts were OK - A National Rep came in and found cylinder 5 valves tight - causing misfires.. He also replaced the Torque Converter and Front Drive shafts. This is the Thirds set of drive shafts on this car.

    The vibration is better at 22mph - but worse at 71-72mph.

    Not good for a @$34,000 2010 Honda Crosstour..
  • ioreperioreper Member Posts: 3
    Just dropped off my 2009 Honda Accord V6 with 70K miles at the dealer after it started running very rough with CEL flashing. I am guessing it's misfiring again. About this time last year, the same thing happened at 80+ mph on the highway but it was a lot worse. Whole car was bucking, CEL flashing, and caution light flashing. At that time, I got it to the dealer 3 miles away and they diagnosed misfire on all cylinders. The spark plugs were trashed! They upgraded the software like the service bulletin suggested and said it wasn't going to happen again. Well - I think it happened again tonight and not long after the CEL came on 2 weeks ago for low oil due to VCM as well. I am fed up with VCM and even more so with Honda not taking responsibility for the issue. When this happened last year, I opened a case with Honda and demanded them to pay for all repairs (~$600 worth). They were only willing to take partial responsibility at ~$200 which I refused to take. This time, I am not letting it go that easy. Any tips on taking this issue back to Honda? Especially now that it hit me twice in just one year.
  • indydriverindydriver Member Posts: 620
    Document everything and go through Honda's process. As we are seeing, they seem to be more willing to step up. Let us know how it turns out. Good luck.
  • ioreperioreper Member Posts: 3
    Update. My local dealer who got the pleasure of dealing with me this time diagnosed a misfire on one cylinder and a fouled spark plug. They recommended I replace all spark plugs (as I did last year at roughly 50K). After all, the car has 70K miles on it. :) The PCM software, however, is up to date this time.

    After I kindly explained the history and similar diagnosis from the other dealer last year, I asked them to dig deeper and call me back with a root cause or they could keep my car. They called back many hours later and after spending some time on the Honda tech line. Apparently, they took some things apart and sent photos to Honda who in turn recommended a short block and rings free of charge. When asked why, they explained that there are issues with the VCM getting oil to specific cylinders which is causing misfires and fouled plugs. Who knows what else could be affected. Their fix seems a little more permanent than replacing plugs every few months but I am not keeping my hopes up. I am re-opening my original case with Honda from last year and going after a full reimbursement on the original PCM software upgrade and spark plug job.

    I am now worried of new issues down the road, which may not have manifest yet, due to the oil not getting everywhere it should for over 70K miles. Any ideas about what they could be? Part of me wants to keep the car in hopes that the next repair will be the last related to this. Another part of me wants to give this lemon back to Honda and get my money back to buy a more reliable car.

    Any ideas what else I could expect down the road related to this issue? I drive about 20-24K miles every year. I need reliability above all else. That's why I bought this car in the first place and so far, the plan has backfired.
  • ioreperioreper Member Posts: 3
    I've been having multiple VCM-related issues (fouled plugs, low oil, etc). I drive almost entirely highway. My 2009 Accord currently has over 70K miles on it. Honda just recommended a short block and rings. I am worried there is more wrong with the engine and seriously considering a different car. Here are the details - http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f169a0d/2704#MSG2704.
  • indydriverindydriver Member Posts: 620
    Unfortunately, there is really only one long term solution for you or anyone with recurring problems due to faulty technology: get rid of it. Move on.
  • plymouthmaplymouthma Member Posts: 5
    I got my car back yesterday. i paid $250, Honda paid for rest. The dealership gave me loaner for free for 5 days. they replaced small or lower engine block, ring seals, 3 plugs, etc. I asked them if they think this will happen again, they seemed confident that with software update that it would not. I was wondering if any one after the software change, (2011 or newer) has had this problem.So far it seems to be only in cars prior to this update, such as mine and ioreper.
    Right now the car is smooth, i never noticed significant hesitation from VCM either now or previously.
  • indydriverindydriver Member Posts: 620
    The only hope I can give you is that our 2011 with 13,000 miles has been flawless. However, it is driven 95% city, so it is rarely exposed to the conditions that create problems (long stretches of 3 cylinder operation, i.e., highway cruising). The 2011's also have the piston ring mod and extra moly when delivered. Since the moly eventually washes away, I am going to a high moly oil.
  • robtroxelrobtroxel Member Posts: 103
    edited October 2012
    In essence, Honda created needless complexity by adapting VCM, when in fact a 6 or 7 speed transmission would have done the job! We left Honda Accords after our fantastic running 2007 V6 EXL was worn out. That combined with the sneaky de contenting on the bloated 2008+made it an easy decision to go elsewhere. I am not surprised about the reliability issues posted here. on the v6 VCM models.
  • indydriverindydriver Member Posts: 620
    I don't know about "needless". Blame your government for the pressure of CAFE. In the minivan world, Honda has a 15% fuel mileage advantage because of VCM and that is huge. It's also why I bought a Sienna. But how many of those buyers even know about VCM? They trust Honda to be reliable.
  • robtroxelrobtroxel Member Posts: 103
    CAFE was the motivation for VCM, but ...they needed the 6 or 7 speed auto first and I believe they would get the same results without VCM's..unneeded complexity. Understand my context with the 4 door sedans as the bench mark. Toyota did just that and have an engine that runs smoothly at all speeds. That minivan "advantage" shows on paper but I'll bet the real world mileage is closer on both and you won't be sucking oil @ 80,000 miles like many of the Honda's seem to be.
  • rodutrodut Member Posts: 343
    True. It's better to let all the cylinders work, on a higher gear. Low noise, low wear, no vibrations.
  • lneil06lneil06 Member Posts: 4
    Guess what - Our 2013 EX-L V6 AWD now has the same problem - if not worse than our 2010 Honda Crosstour. Severe floorboard shake at 22mph - 28 - then again in the 40mph range then again around 72-78mph. It's not as bad in S mode - using the paddle shifters.

    Honda - Please get a clue - I'm also seeing people complaining with the Acura RDX - which just received the new VCM. :sick:
  • michael0137michael0137 Member Posts: 58
    Having owned Honda Accords since 1981, and most receently a 1997 Accord V6, a 2000 Accord V6, and a 2004 V6 Coupe, we bought a 2008 V6 with VCM with great confidence in December 2007. In early 2011, with only 28,000 miles on it, all hell broke loose on a trip from NYC to our son's house in NJ. first the check engine light came on - I stopped and checked to see that the gas cap was on correctly as we had gotten gas. Followed manual and restarted the car - everything seemed fine, then all of a sudden the check engine light came on , the VSA lights, and the transmission downshifted two gears by itself. I tried restarting the car again, but each time, after about 30 seconds of operation, the same thing happened. We limped back into NYC - took the car to Paragon Honda in Queens - the result after several days of examination with the Regional Manager involved - something about transmission input and output modules replaced and the car pronounced "fine". Yeah, drove it home and it was not downshifting slowing down going into corners - came out of a slow turn in 5th , the transmission/engine lugging. I wasted no time - sold it immediately to a dealer in Texas on ebay and bought a used 2008 Acura RL with 18K on it for LESS than the Accord cost new. My highway mileage IMPROVED on the same trips from about 27 to 29-30 with the RL, and NO MORE VCM!!! That thing drove me nuts - seamless changing from 6-4-3 and back??? No way - I felt every change of cylinder management. Now I see that the Accord V6 has lost its recommended status as a used car by Consumer Reports. It is no wonder. Honda has lost me as a customer since 1981 since the new RL has VCM also. I will not own a Honda product with VCM. IF I need another car - my RL has 34,000 miles on it now - I am looking very seriously at the 2015 Hyundai Genesis with 8 speed transmission.
  • indydriverindydriver Member Posts: 620
    edited December 2013
    See thread "class action" or go to enginemisfiresettlement.com.

    Bottom line, you can submit related out of pocket expenses for reimbursement and everyone gets an 8 year warranty against this problem.
  • dinofldinofl Member Posts: 53
    I received the class action letter as well. I would love to shove it in the face of all the Honda reps that basically ignored all my claims of problems and kept giving me the run around with the high speed forced wheel balancing line of crap! I traded it in 2011 for a VW CC and the VW is such a superior car and drives like a dream in comparison. Never again a VCM engine for me. Also hate the BMW engine off when stopped. That's another pile of crap!!
  • indydriverindydriver Member Posts: 620
    edited December 2013
    Glad you're happy with your Vdub. You should write a letter to the court. I am sure there are many owners who traded their VCM in exasperation and lost money on the trade value. This type of financial loss is not addressed by the settlement. Obviously, if you had actual out of pocket expenses, you should submit them.

    Of course, Honda is hoping very few people bother so that their expense and damage to their reputation is minimized.
  • rodutrodut Member Posts: 343

    Honda looses countless customers because of VCM. I bought 4 Hondas since 1994 (1994, 2001, 2008 and 2012). Unfortunately I get chest pain (because I get mad) when the VCM computer changes the engine power without input from me (by varying the number of active cylinders). It's simply a health hazard for me to drive a VCM car (my 2012 Accord is manual transmission, so there is no computer changing the engine power or the gears for me). I can't stand a computer driving the car for me. I get chest pain.

  • pilgrim1620pilgrim1620 Member Posts: 7
    Have a 2010 Accord v6. @ 45K spark plugs fouled and did software update, @ 70k ditto with spark plugs, now get new" small engine block", eventually paid for by Honda with class action suit. Now @ 104k 1st catalytic convertor goes. Read that catalytic convertors usually last life of car with rare exception, and also go prematurely " if engine burns too much oil" or if fuel is too rich. Therefore I am going to Honda to see if they will pay for new converter . Has any one else had similar experience?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,745
    Some myths are in place here, a rich Air/Fuel (A/F) ratio does NOT damage a catalyst. To do anything, the catalyst needs O2 in the exhaust stream and a rich A/F ratio uses up all of the O2 in the engine so what happens is the catalyst actually turns off. Don't confuse that with a condition that results in a misfire, misfires damage catalysts no matter what the A/F ratio going into the engine is.

    Now oil consumption issues do damage catalysts, the question is why are you experiencing oil consumption and the most common cause is sticking piston rings caused by the oil leaving deposits behind. That is primarily caused by engine oil that fell short of a manufacturers specs, and a secondary cause is over extending the service intervals.
  • pilgrim1620pilgrim1620 Member Posts: 7
    The engine burned excessive oil to the point that spark plugs had to be replaced at least 2 documented times and to point that they decide to give me a new short block, don't you think that may have contributed to the catalytic converter prematurely malfunctioning? I don't see how Honda can absolutely state that it did not. I change my oil at the recommended intervals.
  • pilgrim1620pilgrim1620 Member Posts: 7
    Honda's response thus far is that they won't pay any part of it, because no one else has come to them with the same problem. They are losing me as a future customer. I have bought 3 Hondas in the past 12 years.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,745
    edited November 2014
    The catalyst failing is an issue but in all fairness they are only required to guarantee if for 80K miles and even then that is for defects, not for issues that killed it. Each time that the engine needed spark plugs, no matter what the cause was there easily would have been misfires occurring that would have been shortening the catalysts lifespan, and that is without considering the engine oil additive poisoning that also would have been occurring.

    If you follow a number of my posts you are going to see a perspective that is only gained by doing repairs like this first hand, and yes I have personally repaired a number of cars that have had similar failures to yours and the primary cause is in fact found in the service history, and even if oil changes were timely that doesn't mean that the products used actually met the engines demands. The API and ILSAC specs are in fact a minimal standard and the fact that they have fallen short of consumers needs should be what is being taken to task here, not manufacturers like Honda, GM, etc.

    At 100K your car still has 100K to 150K life still in it. At this time you should fix it, and then start making a payment to a new savings account as if you did indeed replace it. Ten years from today, when you still have your car and ten years worth of savings in the bank, lets talk again.
  • pilgrim1620pilgrim1620 Member Posts: 7
    My point is an admitted defect in the engine lead, at least in part, to premature failure of catalytic converter. I think Honda should step up at take some of the responsibility, if they don't my next car will be a Toyota who replaced the frame of my Sequoia when the car was 10 years old and had 200K mi on it, with no charge and a free loaner. The Accord will need to be replaced in 2-3 years as I put ~30 k mi/yr on it. I had the oil changed @ Honda, when I was supposed to.
  • pilgrim1620pilgrim1620 Member Posts: 7
    Cardoc , do you work for Honda? You seem to make presumptions that I did not care for car like I was supposed to. If you need my maintenance records I can supply them.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,745
    edited November 2014
    No, I do not (did not) work for Honda. I don't need your records to know what experience has taught me about what you had happened to your car. You are correct however in that I don't believe that your car was serviced correctly. The problems you described simply don't happen when todays cars are serviced correctly.
  • pilgrim1620pilgrim1620 Member Posts: 7
    So I guess that means the Honda car dealership didn't service the car correctly? I think ( and I would agree ) they would have issue with that.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,745
    So let them have an issue. Do you think that it hasn't happened elsewhere in the US? Dealers using products that failed to meet the demands of the vehicles that they were selling?

    Go look at the history and hoopla surrounding the introduction of the GM dexos spec. The negative pressure trying to say that it wasn't necessary succeeded in having quite of number of cars get serviced incorrectly at dealers and many other shops. Just look at the other threads on this very page discussing GM's engine oil consumption issues. Almost everyone ignored what the owners manual actually said which was "Use an oil that meets API SM, ILSAC GF5, and is approved for GM spec 6094M (or 4718 the full synthetic version) or an equivalent. The trap from there was in actually finding a product that really was in fact an equivalent and understanding that anything that was only approved for the API and ILSAC ratings fell short of the actual spec and in fact wasn't an equivalent. The dexos licensed products solved these issues for GM because putting the licensed logo on the front of the bottle made it simple to know what really was the right product. Honda allowed the API and ILSAC minimal standard as their specification and for the most part it worked just fine, but there were exceptions and I have little doubt that yours was one of them. Your oil change intervals, combined with some aspect of your normal trip allowed the oil to degrade faster than was typical based on the original failures you described. Had someone have realized that early on and gotten you to switch to a more appropriate product you would not have suffered the failures that you did.

    Of course at the same time can you just picture what typically happens when they would have tried to get you to use a synthetic back then when your car's spec didn't call for it? This has to be the only job in the world that would have had them labeled rip-offs if they had done that, and of course they are now wrong as well since they didn't.

    So yes, IMO your car wasn't serviced correctly, and yes they likely would have been treated like they were wrong if they had in fact tried to do it right. In the end you end up fighting with them and the people who influenced the perspectives at play go on unscathed.

  • pilgrim1620pilgrim1620 Member Posts: 7
    How about this argument? The spark plugs were not defective, yet Honda pays for them, because it is immediately known that they have been fouled because of the engine defect. No one looked directly at my catalytic converter at that time ( @ 40K, and 70 K). Admittedly there is no indicator saying that the converter is less functional than it had been, but does that mean the converter has not been to some degree also " fouled"?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,745
    As a discussion or a serious attempt to genuinely understand more about the science that makes cars work and what it really takes to have people who can diagnose and repair them?

    If there was knowledge of an engine defect, they would have dealt with the engine at 40K miles. If the car came in with a misfire, and a spark plug issue was discovered as the cause the right thing to do is to take care of the spark plugs.

    Things happen to cars that quite often don't offer up much more than what can be immediately detected. If there wasn't legitimate proof that an engine problem truly existed at the 40K point, what do you think would happen to a tech who for no verifiable reason wants to replace the engine? Besides there is another whole level to this that everyone pooh-poohs because they simply don't care to see the connection. Under warranty that dealer technician probably got paid about .5hr to diagnose and replace the spark plugs. That same job, customer pay would be almost triple that and he/she then has time to be a lot more disciplined and thorough. Under warranty they are only allowed to do exactly what is needed in order to get you back into your car, and the time that they are paid to do it is often less than it really takes.

    You have one part of the above correct, without a trouble code providing a reason for direction no one would, OR SHOULD be looking at the catalytic convertor when you were at the 40K and 70K intervals.

    So then your engine was proven to be failing (for whatever reason) and they replaced it under warranty. The technician who fixed your car was probably paid around seven hours to do so. Now had that same job been customer pay he/she would have been paid around fourteen hours. The reality is that it takes an experienced tech just about ten hours on average to do that job. When an employee makes a mistake, some businesses dock their pay as a punishment. Exactly what did the tech do wrong to deserve getting his/her pay docked when he/she replaced your engine?

    Once completed there was no indication from the system that there were any other issues were there. At least not until some 30K+ later when the system has detected that the catalyst efficiency is below the specifications.

    So now, 105K miles. (25K out of warranty) the catalyst has failed. Here are the rest of the details. If they do the repair customer pay, you foot the whole bill and the tech will be paid around 1.7 hours. If they do anything other than that the technician will be paid .8 hours for the exact same job. Now it's not likely that the same technician would have worked on your car each visit, and regular maintenance is probably done quick lube fashion so what exactly did the last technician do wrong to deserve getting his/her pay docked?



  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    And some people wonder why dealer techs hate doing warranty work!
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,745
    Yep. Somehow it has to change if the consumers are to get the full value of their vehicle especially when a warranty issue does arise. As it stands right now its nothing more than a game that has one loser and everyone else as winners when it the tech gets it right the first time, and it is the tech that is the sole loser. But when the tech fails to get it right the first time not only do more people get to join the list of the losers, the techs get it even worse when he/she isn't paid anything at all because now it is a "comeback".

    Under the flat rate system today the best that can happen once the car gets into the come-back category is that the tech now does get it right, the problem is solved and the customer is happy with the car. Then maybe the next couple of cars that the tech works on are customer pay and they subsidize the loss of income that the tech experienced for that previous repair. If not then those work hours are simply lost to the technician and that is just one of the reasons that there are so many ex-technicians and no one coming into the trade to replace the next one that leaves it.

    Typical consumerism considers that aspect of all of this to not be their problem and so it gets no attention. The genuine costs of this are making themselves known and you see it with every consumer who has had to go through multiple service visits to have an issue corrected. The consumer does recognize that as a problem when they have to take the car back, and back, and back. They also see the problem when the upsells of the services start piling on when the techs are forced to sell work or lose their jobs of they aren't producing enough income for the shop. All of the complaining and attention is going to the results of the real problem, instead of addressing the prime cause.
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