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Assuming 15,000 miles per year; gas cost $2.50 per gallon
Typical driving habits:
@24 mpg Subaru uses 625 gallons of fuel per year = $1,563 cost per year
@28 mpg Escape 4WD uses 538 gallons of fuel per year = $1,345 cost per year
Time to make back the Escape $10k purchase price difference while driving 15,000 miles per year: 46 years!!!!!!!!!!!!
-Frank
But for city driving, the Subaru is greatly disadvantaged.
The hills in my area guarantee 18 - 19 mpg tops.
I'm keeping track of a relation's lexus RX450h to see how it does in the same hilly area.
46 years to recoup the cost, and that's assuming the NiMH battery pack lasts 46 years.
If we add the cost of a new battery pack every 15 years (after managing a very large pool of laptops with NiMH batteries I can say that is *extremely* optimistic) you will never actually recover the extra cost.
It will cost more, period.
The new Insight intrigues me but I know, without even breaking out the numbers, that a Fit makes a whole lot more sense from a financial stand point.
Okay but you're driving an XT so you're not comparing apples to apples. In terms of HP, the Forester X is the closest equivalent to the Escape Hybrid and 24 mpg is a fairly realistic city/hwy avg for a vehicle rated 20/26 by the EPA. Even if you drop the avg down to 22 mpg, that's only an extra $140 a year. However, you'd also need to comparably penalize the Escape's mpg avg.
Of course a lot depends on the driver and driving conditions. My 04 XT gets 21 mpg in almost strictly city driving which beats the 19 mpg EPA rating (developed using the older less realistic standard).
-Frank
The '09 Escape Hybrid does about 9 seconds from 0-60. So it is quicker and gets better mileage than the '09 Forester X auto. But, it also costs a fair bit more money.
I cannot say whether or not a person will recover the cost differential over years of ownership.
Not to mention the disposal and/or recycling cost of the battery materials.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm all for the electric cars that will be coming out...and already were out (the EV-1) back say 10 years ago. Design limitations will require that they have a certain use. Although, recent news says the batteries of today will last twice as long as those 10 years ago. Translate that to 350 mile range rather than 150 mile range.
Toyota has a buy-back guarantee program for the batteries in the Prius, so if you ever found an abandoned one and were able to remove the NiMH cells you'd make a few hundred bucks.
They are generally very optimistic but they will veil criticism if you read between the lines. In other words "we wish mileage were better" translates to "this thing is a gas guzzler big time".
I met John Davis at the NY Auto Show in 2006, and he was also friendly in person.
Bob
How many '08 XT's did Subaru actually sell with the 5S MT?
If I lived in MI I would certainly have AWD. It just makes getting around in the snow that much easier. My sister-in-law lives in NH, and they get a lot of snow too. They used to have several FWD Saabs, and now own two AWD Subaru Outbacks. She and her husband say the Subies are so much better than the Saab in those conditions.
Subarus are very popular in snow-belt states. Not sure about MI, as there is so much pressure to buy domestic vehicles there; but if you go to New England or out to the Rockies, they're all over the place.
There's no question that a hybrid will get better gas mileage than a Subaru. My wife's '01 Forester gets in the mid-20 mpg range, which is respectable, but certainly not in the hybrid range. You just have to decide which is more important to you: getting around easily in the winter or great gas mileage.
Bob
I drove a 2005, Escape for about 50,000 miles. I got the 4-cylinder version because of the reliability of that engine (I've got a 4-cylinder 1995 Ranger approaching 300,000 miles with only oil changes and spark plugs for the engine). Decided to I needed a new car after T-boning a vehicle that ran a stop sign. The Escape did a very good job of protecting me since it was a 65 mph crash on cruise control and no time to hit the brake.
I chose a 2009 Forester X (5sp Manual) over a 2009 Escape because I could get manual transmission and a couple of miles per gallon better performance. After about 10K miles I can say they drive very similar, your view of the road is about the same, ground clearance and winter driving performance virtually the same. I found both 4-cylinders to be adequate and a good compromise between power and fuel economy.
I could not afford (or justify) going to an Escape Hybrid. I also put on ~30K miles a year (spread over two vehicles).
If you drive around with free range dogs, you will find the center console in the Forester loses that new look in about one trip to the grocery store. The dogs' toenails will leave a lasting impression.
Right now, in this miserable economy, is probably the best time to buy any vehicle, as the dealers and automakers are begging for customers. Having said that, the new 2010 Forester has won a number of important awards, and it's winter time. Both those items will hurt customers when comes time to negotiate pricing. The simple fact is the new Forester is wildly popular, and Subaru dealers are having no trouble selling them; the new Forester is the main reason that Subaru sold more cars last year. You may want to consider an Outback instead, as you may(?) be able to get a better deal on that model.
As to buying a used Forester, I would advise against that, only because the new 2010 model is so much better than older models. It's a bit larger than older models which translates to being much roomier inside. The older Forester, while being an excellent car, has been long criticized for being rather cramped inside—especially for rear passengers. I suspect, if you end up buying an older model, you may regret it for that very reason.
Also, there are just a ton of tiny details that are just better executed on the 2010 model. The increased interior room and the improved refinement (quieter and more comfortable) would have me opting for the new model.
Finally, whatever Subaru you decide to purchase, make sure it has the All-Weather Package, which includes heated seats, heated outside mirrors (dries the mirrors in the rain and snow so that you can use them), and a windshield deicer (keeps the front wipers from icing up). Living in MI, you will really appreciate those features.
FWIW, I just found this write up on the new Forester:
http://www.examiner.com/x-2102-Denver-Autos-Examiner~y2009m2d21-2009-Subaru-Fore- - ster-X-Premium-Package
Note: He's incorrect about not having a reclining rear seat. Only base models are lacking that feature.
Bob
http://www.cars101.com/subaru/rebates.html
Bob
Wrt AWD .vs. FWD, in Portland both a friend and I drove FWD cars and continually had problems with the front tires skidding, or the vehicles being unable to get up wet or snowy hills. By comparison, the '09 XT I drive, outfitted with Nokian WTG2's, surmounted one of the worst winter storms hitting Portland in years (one that snowbound my friend, Prius owners and many others). Black ice remains a danger, but the Nokians reduce it somewhat.
The only surprise I had in winter was that the Forester, supposedly biased towards its front wheels, had a tendency on icy roads to swing its rear end out during hard acceleration. It wasn't hair trigger - I had to deliberately provoke it by hard acceleration. But it's something to be careful about.
You folks, in the States, are very lucky with your new car pricing. Can't get those kind of deals up here, (Canada). If all the big auto-makers start cutting production, it will increase demand, and drive up the price. Basic supply and demand. Right now, there is excess supply, so get in on a deal, as soon as you can.
My wife bought an '09 F-XT back in August. She got the car she wanted for the price she was willing to pay. It's a great CUV.
never seen so many amazing deals, especially in the compact SUV segment,
which is very competitive due to the wide array of choices. Some dealers/mfrs are
offering MSRP discounts of $8K-$10K (Hyundai, KIA, Jeep, etc).
I bought my '09 Forester last Feb, and because it was a new model in short supply
I knew the dealer wouldn't negotiate much. So I purchased it thru the non-negotiated VIP pricing program (my relative works for Subaru region), and I feel I
got a decent deal (about $22K).
In late Dec the Pacific NW got with a major snowstorm. My GF wound up
with her BMW (w/ traction tires) stuck off the roadside. Then she experienced my
Forester getting thru some amazing snowdrifts etc and she decided it was time...
to buy a Forester. We checked the newspapers, and wound up at Subaru dealer in
Oregon City. She purchased an '09 Forester X with M/T, Premium & All Weather
packages. Her price: $500 less than my VIP pricing! (and I didn't get the AWP).
AND - she got to donate $250 to her charity of choice. AND - we got 2 Fusion
Mt Hood season ski passes (value:$800 +/-).
Bottom Line: while noone knows what the future will hold, now is a great time to
buy a new CUV. And although Subaru hasn't been as aggressively discounting as
some other brands, if you do the research and cross-shop your local dealers
smartly, there are great deals to be had on 09 Foresters. And I don't think there
is any overwhelming reason to wait for an '10 model. Most of the early model gripes
noted here in this forum have been addressed as running changes to the '09's (wiring not secured; fender protectors too small, etc). And the big changes (like
5SP A/T or diesel boxer) are still a ways off in the future... Further, Foresters traditionally have very high resale value, so for the small amount you might save I
wouldn't recommend buying a used one.
Hope my 2 cents helps, and Good Luck!
You won't recover $6,500 in gas costs any time soon.
Foresters starts just under $20k, but step up to the all-weather package that Bob recommended and you'll spend $23k and change.
It's bigger and better equipped than a Prius would be at that price, and you'll be able to get around in winter.
Camry hybrid is a sedan and may not be a good car to haul your cello. I don't think the rear seats fold down.
Escape hybrid's financials don't make sense, even if gas spikes to $4 per gallon, see the numbers above.
But the real reason you should get a Forester is because you drove it and liked the responsiveness. If you ever feel unsure about the purchase just turn on the seat heaters in the middle of your next snow storm and you can put those doubts to rest.
Those owning Priuses here in Portland have to run with chains or studs whenever it snows.
You also will not get as good mileage in winter because the engine needs to run to provide heat to cabin and defrosters.
However, in S. Calif or other places where roads are generally dry and it's warm, hybrids will save a lot of fuel.
I remember reading that some time ago. Thanks for the reminder.
Bob
BTW, I already got the quote : msrp 25134
sale price 23318 plus tax, title plate and doc fee
$25038.95 out the door plus plate
financing up to 72 mos at 4.9 percent
Could you guys let me know if it's any good
Thanks
So, is 23318+tax+doc fee (???)+ plate a good price?
Would be good to play with the RAV4 in the snow. It's AWD system is quite different from the Foresters. It is a reactive system unless you manually lock the differential (electric control inside the cabin), and that mode only works up to 25 mph.
But if it works for you, that is what matters.
Bill
RAV - better acceleration from start (both cars have 4 cylinder and AT)
Forester - better brakes and significantly better overall driving feeling (at least to me.) Bumpy roads feel softer and smoother in Forester, road noise on high way is WAY less. Seat's comfort is about the same (not too comfy )
Forester - a slight lead in an interior quality (personally, I like Forester's cleanliness of the interior's design and layout.) Quality of the cloth is better, plastic has a softer touch. Also, I have not experienced any rattles in Forester (I tried 2 different vehicles.)
RAV's cargo seems little bit bigger (I could be wrong, didn't measure it,) but the back door is in the wrong position. A design flaw IMO.
I cannot forgive Subaru that there is no optional DUAL zone a/c, I need it really badly to keep peace in my family.
So, I am not in love yet, but definitely have a major crush on Subie.
the MSRP vary widely in different regions/markets (I've been told by friends in the
car business that Portland OR is one of the most competetive and highly
discounted markets in the country...).
So - while $2K (+/-) off MSRP is not anything to get super excited about, it's also
safe to say that this is not a bad price. Especially at this time of year (winter) in
a snowy state, and with all the praise and awards that the Forester has received
lately.
Here in the Portland market, you could pretty easily buy this vehicle for about
$22K. Or the Limited model (leather, fog lamps, CD stacker, auto climate, etc)
for $24,500.
Dual Zone AC is only available in the RAV4 Limited.
The best Forester seats are in the X limited and XT limited (10 way power, which are similar to those in the upper level Outbacks), and are Leather only.
A quick comparison of Limited models showed the Toyota having better load capacity, slightly more hp and fuel economy (toyota does make very efficient engines), and dual zone AC for Toyota, but an optional instead of standard moonroof for toyota, and cloth instead of leather for Toyota seats.
The Forester X Premium doesn't have leather but will be cheaper and still has the moon roof. Toyota's web site doesn't allow comparison of the Subaru forester X-Premium with 4S AT.
RAV4 has slightly more interior cargo space, but its rear door prevents big boxes from loading (Subaru showed this in their marketing demos, which you can find on YouTube). I too found the rear door cumbersome (Toyota's been very stubborn about that - worse, it's hinged for Japan, not the USA)
I'd try driving these two a bit more to make sure what you are looking for will be in the vehicle you choose.
Also, which dealer has the better reputation for service?
It took me a drive in the RAV4, 6 drives of the Outback and 2 drives of the Forester (both of those were done in conjunction with the Outback drives) before I finally decided.
Indeed, it's that way for right-hand drive markets and they were too cheap to flip it around for LHD. How much does a hinge cost anyway?
Not only does it block curb side access, but also you need about 80 feet behind you if you ever parallel park to open the thing.
I liked that V6 but I went straight to a Sienna. The RAV4 had that door issue, and the Highlander's 3rd row seat doesn't split fold. The Sienna had no such obvious flaw.
I think $23k is fine, in fact that's what I predicted if you read back a bit.
No dual zone but it works for us. If I'm cold I turn on the heated seats, I don't reach for the temp gauge. Wifey tends to wear a heavier jacket than I do, so she just uses the heated seats less often.
Newer Priuses (2006 and later I think) have a switch to turn the traction control off. The switch was added because of the snow issues.
Going up my snowy driveway the TRAC simple retards all your momentum and gets in your way. It just stops climbing.
My dealer's assistant service manager took a picture to show the manager. I was not sure whether or not this will be covered under warranty. My XT's not even a year old.
In any event, the interior paint's a weak spot, and the challenge is, after the bare spot is fixed, to coat or cover the internal painted parts to prevent their paint from wearing off.
I wish Subaru had done a better job with the interior :sick:
this forum, I went out last week and checked the exterior rear fenders on my
early production model '09 Forester. Sure enough - there is significant paint
chipping just above the area where the clear plastic film fender protectors are
located. I called the Subaru dealer (where I purchased vehicle), and they "seemed"
to be unaware of this issue....until I had them pull up the TSB (which, again, thanks
to this forum I was able to give them)...suddenly, they were responsive.
So I now have my Forester scheduled to go into the shop next week for 3 days to
be repainted and have the larger fender protectors installed.
Needless to say, I am optimistically hopeful that the repair will be done right and
I'll have no further issues. I'm not happy right now about having to have my less
than 1 yr old vehicle re-painted...
Will keep all of you posted on how this plays out...
Michel Quebec
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f106/
I have not had the problems that you have had, but for the first 40 minutes of driving, it has only two settings; too hot and too cold. After about 40 minutes, it seems to "figure itself out", and manages to set itself properly.
I had an '08 Impreza 2.5i, with manual climate control, and it worked fantastic. I could always jet the air to the temperature I wanted, instantly. Since selling it, and buying an '09 STI, I am constantlly fighting with it. My wife has an '09 Forester XT, and same issue; always fighting with it... too hot, too cold, too hot, too cold.
TSB = technical service bulletin. Not sure if this is what you're asking, but that's how I'll answer it. Someone who has it can provide the link.
Beginning in Aug 08 we noticed that our air conditioning system in the hot sun would only run cold at the very lowest setting. Even one or two degrees above the bottom setting and very hot air would come out. We took it back to Romano Subaru in New York and sought warranty service. They discovered that nearly our entire Freon tank was empty and Romano thought that refilling it would fix the problem. After one day the vehicle was back to blowing out hot air. After a second attempt to get it fixed, the dealer recognized the problem but said they could not find the source. That maybe it just worked that way. They were willing to "just replace the compressor" but didn't think it would fix the problem. We told them not to bother, realizing we were already moving to Vienna, VA in Oct 08 for my DC job, and said that we would just have it looked at in Virginia.
We lived with the problem for a few weeks while we got settled in DC and decided to bring the car in after the New Year, the problem never changing. Farrish Subaru took the car in for service and realized that our Freon was near empty again. They decided to put dye into the system and have us run the car for a week to see where a leak may be. We returned and they found a tube leaking and ordered the part. We returned Feb 19th and they took two days to replace the part, saying that the AC was fixed. They dropped the car back off Feb 20th and I tested the car that evening. Within 2 minutes of lukewarm air, on the AC setting, hot air came out again. I returned to the dealership on Feb 21st and showed their repair representative Stan the heating problem. He drove the car around their lot for 5 minutes and returned saying that he couldn't figure it out, the AC worked the day before, but now it didn't, and he couldn't hear the compressor kick on. They gave us a rental car.
That evening, based on 4 attempts to get the problem resolved, I faxed a letter to Subaru of America saying that we wanted final resolution for the problem or we would have no choice but to label the vehicle a lemon.
On Feb 23rd we spoke to Stan again who said they could not figure out the problem and they were going to contact the manufacturer to seek assistance with the repair. Furthermore, Stan said that they tested the heated air being released as 119F, which then cooled down to 105F after a few minutes. Hours later we received a phone call from Subaru of America Senior Customer Service Representative Deloria Marshall who said she would investigate.
On Feb 24th we received a call from Stan from Farrish Subaru that they could not find the source of the problem, they compared our vehicle to another new Subaru Forester, its AC did not have the same problem as ours, but that because they couldn't figure it out, they were assuming that they fixed our problem, and that "our" AC must just work that way.
On Feb 25th we attempted twice to contact Deloria Marshall who did not return our call. On Feb 26th we attempted to contact Deloria Marshall who promptly answered the phone, obviously screening our calls, "Hello Ms. Schiffman, I still don't have an answer for you." Later that day, she called and said that they are sending a tech rep from Headquarters on Thursday, Mar 5 to see the car because the dealer was now saying that they couldn't figure out our problem and that the dealer says it must be "fixed."
I called that evening and spoke to Deloria. I asked her point blank if the reason they were sending a Headquarters representative on Mar 5 was to rubber stamp our car "fixed." I told her that doing this would not remove our right to seek legal assistance. I told her that we were worried what 119F air would do to our infant daughter and how a non-functioning AC would affect our daughter in the summer. She said that the sole reason they were sending a representative on Mar 5 was to find the problem and fix it. She said they were a small company and care about their customers.
At 11:01AM Feb 27th I left a message on Deloria Marshall's answering machine that I wanted to attend the Headquarters tech representative's visit on Mar 5th. Furthermore, I was wondering if I could bring a privately hired, independent car technician to the Mar 5 appointment.
At roughly 1PM Feb 27th, my wife received a phone call from Farrish Subaru that the Headquarters tech representative had just shown up at the dealership and certified the vehicle as "fixed." That we had until that evening to pick up our car.
The primary reason we are worried about our non-functional AC is because of our infant daughter. We paid in cash for a vehicle that we trusted to be safe and reliable and regret our purchase. Subaru of America's senior customer service representative swore to me that their Headquarters representative was coming to help. Now certifying it fixed days in advance of the original appointment binds our hands.
Tim Colbeck, VP Sales
Subaru of America
He's located at Subaru's New Jersey office: address should be at Subaru website or found by web search.
Good luck!
I quickly figured out that trying to use the auto climate control was an exercise in futility so I switched it to manual mode. Now 5 years later, I've been perfectly happy leaving it that way.
-Frank.
My 98 Forester has plain old black trim. Even if you cut or scraped it, it was black all the way through.
Our 2002 Legacy had a near-black metallic paint on some of it's trim. It actually wore well, we had that car for 6+ years. It may have helped that the color was similar to the color of the plastic behind it.
Now in 2009 they use what I call "pluminum", i.e. plastic painted to look like aluminum trim. It's lighter so whatever wears really shows the black plastic behind it.
They should just go back to using unpainted plastic trim. It may be cheap but it lasts forever.
I really like the look and feel of the interior dash & door materials in my '96 Outback. It was very similar to the look/feel of the '92 Camry materials, so maybe that was the "style of the '90s." Whatever it was, it looked nice, felt nice, and lasted. The worst wear that showed on that car was the steering wheel, where the textured look of the vinyl had worn smooth after 220,000 miles of driving. But, it still looked nice.