Valve/engine woes. Should I call it a day?
Hi. I could really use some advice, but first some background.
Let me first say that I love the Forester, and I'd buy another. My 2004 Forester 2.5X currently has around 68,000 miles and is less than five years old – it was taken care of very well. On a few occasions (before 60,000 miles), usually going uphill, my car would feel like it was about to stall, but the dealership found no problems. A little over a month ago, my car sputtered again, this time on a freeway. I pulled over before it stalled. It had to be towed. The code that showed up was a P0304. What the dealership found, via a compression test, was that an exhaust valve in the #4 cylinder was bent and basically dead. I did not touch nor change the timing belt. I knew this would be an expensive fix. (Interestingly enough, I had this same code pop-up before my 60,0000-mile warranty was up. The previous dealership service dept. changed the sparkplugs.)
I was out of warranty (68,000 miles), but upset. I had taken great care of my car and never missed regular maintenance. I’m sorry, a car should not crap out on you like this, and the dealership service dept concurred. Despite this, my only chance was to talk directly with Subaru. The dealership mentioned that they might extend a “goodwill” gesture where they would cover some of the cost. Subaru asked for all my maintenance records, which I kept. After handing over a copy of all my records (40+ pages!), I received a call from the service department saying that Subaru would cover the cost of the repair! All I’d have to do is pay for the part ($300 timing belt). I was ecstatic – faith restored. I knew I had taken good care of my car, and Subaru agreed (but, of course, took no responsibility/blame) – this ailment was a rare occurrence.
The repair itself was intensive. They sent part of my engine to the machinist to redo the valves. It took about a week. I was a happy camper.
Flash forward, about two weeks, to last night. I start my engine and the check engine light turns on. Great – I check the code and P0302 pops-up (and yes, I’ve had this code too!). I took it back to the dealer. I just got word back from the dealer and everything seems okay. The code popped-up during a cold start. I was told that if it were to happen again, they would adjust the valves on that side of the engine.
Now to my question(s) – with the problems my engine have had, that it was machined, and considering the age and mileage of my car, should I cut my losses and get rid of it? Trade it in? (I do not want another bent valve. I was out of a car for almost a month!) I’d prefer to keep my car for ten years plus, but will I be able to? Am I being unreasonable and/or irrational? I’m inclined to say that my particular car, and not Foresters in general, is kinda defective, but will listen to arguments stating otherwise. I’d really appreciate your opinions. Thanks for reading!
Let me first say that I love the Forester, and I'd buy another. My 2004 Forester 2.5X currently has around 68,000 miles and is less than five years old – it was taken care of very well. On a few occasions (before 60,000 miles), usually going uphill, my car would feel like it was about to stall, but the dealership found no problems. A little over a month ago, my car sputtered again, this time on a freeway. I pulled over before it stalled. It had to be towed. The code that showed up was a P0304. What the dealership found, via a compression test, was that an exhaust valve in the #4 cylinder was bent and basically dead. I did not touch nor change the timing belt. I knew this would be an expensive fix. (Interestingly enough, I had this same code pop-up before my 60,0000-mile warranty was up. The previous dealership service dept. changed the sparkplugs.)
I was out of warranty (68,000 miles), but upset. I had taken great care of my car and never missed regular maintenance. I’m sorry, a car should not crap out on you like this, and the dealership service dept concurred. Despite this, my only chance was to talk directly with Subaru. The dealership mentioned that they might extend a “goodwill” gesture where they would cover some of the cost. Subaru asked for all my maintenance records, which I kept. After handing over a copy of all my records (40+ pages!), I received a call from the service department saying that Subaru would cover the cost of the repair! All I’d have to do is pay for the part ($300 timing belt). I was ecstatic – faith restored. I knew I had taken good care of my car, and Subaru agreed (but, of course, took no responsibility/blame) – this ailment was a rare occurrence.
The repair itself was intensive. They sent part of my engine to the machinist to redo the valves. It took about a week. I was a happy camper.
Flash forward, about two weeks, to last night. I start my engine and the check engine light turns on. Great – I check the code and P0302 pops-up (and yes, I’ve had this code too!). I took it back to the dealer. I just got word back from the dealer and everything seems okay. The code popped-up during a cold start. I was told that if it were to happen again, they would adjust the valves on that side of the engine.
Now to my question(s) – with the problems my engine have had, that it was machined, and considering the age and mileage of my car, should I cut my losses and get rid of it? Trade it in? (I do not want another bent valve. I was out of a car for almost a month!) I’d prefer to keep my car for ten years plus, but will I be able to? Am I being unreasonable and/or irrational? I’m inclined to say that my particular car, and not Foresters in general, is kinda defective, but will listen to arguments stating otherwise. I’d really appreciate your opinions. Thanks for reading!
Tagged:
0
Comments
Sell it privately (don't trade it in) and buy another used Forester, maybe a 2006 or 2007.
When a head is done they should be doing the whole head and not just the cylinder in question. Since 2 and 4 are the same head they should have cleaned-up both cylinders. It would be ridiculous to do a valve job on 1 cylinder.
It is entirely possible that they set the valve clearances too tight and therefore not closing correctly. A compression test would show that, low compression in number 2.
Of course the codes you have been getting are for a misfire in cylinder 4 and now 2. There are many things that would give that code, ignition, fuel injector, and the appropriate wiring for each of those, but given that they found a compression problem in 4 the cause is most likely something involved with them working on the head, so tight valves are certainly first on the list. The other option is that something got damaged while they worked on it.
I would give them a chance to fix the problem. If they find it and it is simple like the valve adjustment, you should have a good chance of getting good life out of at least that half of the engine.
Of course that assumes they did the valve job correctly.
If they say nothing is wrong but you still aren't happy or comfortable then I would trade it in to them for another. If they think it is fine but you don't, then let them have it. I wouldn't stick another consumer with the problem. If someone buys it from them they will get a warranty, so it will have to be fixed correctly to their satisfaction.
Many times burnt valves can be caused by overly lean mixtures so you might want to consider where you buy your gas. I don't know what part of the country you are in but you might be getting too much alcohol content in your gas.
Good luck!
Thanks very much! I really appreciate it.
I double-checked the work order (my receipt) and here's what it states:
"...bent exhaust valve. Valve guide damaged. ... Check for codes. P0302 & P0304 found. Engine riding rough. Perform compression test ... #4 0 PSI. Remove cylinder head for inspection. Found bent exhaust valve and valve guide had dropped down. Sublet cylinder head to machine shop for replacement of all valves and two valve guides. pressure test, and resurface. Replace valve seals and perform valve seating. Reinstall cylinder head and all other applicable components. Test drove vehicle, checked for leaks, none found, operation normal at this time..."
So all the above happened, and then P0302 popped up again. I was told that if the check engine appeared again, they'd probably have to readjust the valves - hence the purpose of my original post.
Just for the record, the most recent receipt regarding the recent misfire (P0302) states:
"...302 missfire #2 cylinder, set at cold startup, not a hard code. Possible low grade fuel. Cleared code."
Personally, I have no qualms about the dealership service dept - I would take my Subie back for maintenance, no problem. I think they do great work. Honestly, I think I just got a bad car.
So since my valve was bent through mechanical contact, what is your opinion? Trade it in?
Thanks so much for the reply. I really appreciate it!
While it would most likely be ok I personally would trade it in, but wouldn't have the mind-set that it is junk because you will then spend too much money to trade. As I said before, if they think it is fine let them take it, and they can't low-ball you because it isn't fine. Tell them you have spent so much time there looking around that you have started thinking you want something newer.
Of course, the dealer will then tempt you to buy a brand new shiny one!
"... 2004 Forester 2.5X currently has around 68,000 miles... On a few occasions (before 60,000 miles), usually going uphill, my car would feel like it was about to stall, but the dealership found no problems. A little over a month ago, my car sputtered again, this time on a freeway. I pulled over before it stalled. It had to be towed. The code that showed up was a P0304. What the dealership found, via a compression test, was that an exhaust valve in the #4 cylinder was bent..."
bigfrank3 said:
"... The mechanical contact that causes bent valves is usually the valve hitting the piston. Sounds like the valve keeper let go and the valve dropped onto the piston while it was running. There could always be some fatigue that wouldn't necessarily show up with a visual inspection, and they don't indicate doing anything high-tech to inspect the head or the piston..."
It doe not sound like the keeper suddenly came loose and suddenly dropped the valve onto the piston to make a mechanical contact. This would have caused more extensive damage than reported. The owner says the car ran for 8,000 miles with the problem. More likely the guide worked loose in the head and dropped down a bit as the shop reported. The valve would have been poorly guided and supported, causing a slight bend. As the guide dropped lower, the valve would also eventually be unable to close completely, causing compression gradually falling to zero. It is fortunate that the valve did not break or the guide fall completely out, as the piston and cylinder would have suffered severe damage with particles going throughout the engine. As it was, any particles from an exhaust guide working loose in the head would have been blown outward to accumulate as a residue in the valve cover.
Given that there were also codes for cylinder number 2 along the way I did not make the assumption that this was the exact problem that appeared before the 60K mark.
Too bad you and I weren't there to tear it down.
thanks again for all your insight.
You said "I’m inclined to say that my particular car, and not Foresters in general, is kinda defective....."
Not so, heroine!!!! I too have a 2004 Forester 2.5X. It has 80,000 miles and is maintained faithfully. I had the same highway experience - the engine started sputtering and choking. As soon as I pulled over, it died. It had to be towed. The diagnosis was the same as your: a bent valve. In my case, the valve did not crack the piston, just left on it a "smiley face" nick.
The car is in the shop. It will take about a week and about $2K.
if i'm not misinterpreting your post, you're saying that your forester, with 80,000 miles and maintained faithfully, just died under similar circumstances, and the bill will be about $2K. it sounds very similar to mine.
i definitely do not consider the entire line defective. i was only referring to my car.
i'm sorry to hear you have similar problems. in this forum, bigfrank3 was a big help to me. i would call subaru and state my case, send all my well-kept maintenance receipts, and see what happens. the worst they can say is no. ;]
it took a little prodding, but subaru really took care of me and my car. i have no qualms about buying another subaru.
Remember - be nice! You get more bees with honey.
My family has owned about 6 or 7 Subies and no engine problems from any of them. Knock on wood.
Thanks!
That's probably what made all the noise.
Heck, I think even those only go to 100k.
so long story short ... I elected to have a new/used engine in ... now the mechanic can't get the thing to idle ... seems they got a 1998 twin cam engine from a Forester which they heard run and compression tested before I went to yard to purchase ...
my question is , is there any nuances or special hook ups that my local mechanic, who is good but not a Subaru guy, may have missed? ... can this even be done?
I'm a teacher who has one more week of summer vacation and needs to get my car back ...
Thanx for any help!!
Peace, Tbird69
Engine internals should be the same from 98 to 99, I believe.
I'd be pulling anything and everything off the 99 engine you took out, make sure all the intake especially is back on. I remember that if you didn't reconnect one single wire in the intake, the engine would not start.
starting to panic! OY
The intake is plastic - careful use of a heat gun can bend it a bit.
But, I am concerned about there being a difference in the sizes of the blocks! I am really surprised to hear that. Are both of these engines DOHC (dual overhead cams)? I thought that it was mentioned earlier that they are, but I am not aware of any block or head changes that would result in a differently sized manifold. Maybe one of these engines is a 2.2L rather than a 2.5. I think the Impreza still had 2.2L available in '98... isn't that right?
By long block, I meant the block and heads... no manifolds, accessories, sensors, etc.
so am I in deep doo doo with this?
Good luck; I am not sure how deep the "doo" goes, but you will not find out without digging....
Who chose the engine; you or the shop?
His side is that I picked out the engine and he went to check it out as a favor and that I didn't do my homework .... I'm trying to keep this from becoming a finger pointing contest ... the junkyard has a very good reputation so I'm hoping they will be simpathetic .. the reality is the engine doesn't fit ... am I in Fantasyland thinking they will take it back?
Thank you guys for all your help!!! I'll let you know how it works out
Be Well .. Peace
It ain't over yet ....
If the replacement engine is not overhauled, be sure to check for head gasket problems before you install it! No reason to move from one headache to another.... or tear the engine out of the car yet again!
Tbird
mechanic didn't use my intake manifold, the one on the junkyard engine connected all but on sensor on intake ... mmmmm a clue perhaps .... I was also wondering if that AT oil screen needed to be changed .... years ago I remember that being a simple fix when you thought you had major problems ... any thoughts!!!
Thanx!! been 5 weeks without car now .. good thing I use a bicycle alot
Here is information on that, located at this website.
P1705 excessively high or low voltage input from TPS sensor
When testing a tps sensor code like this P1705 code, check the signal wire voltage for any signs of glitch. This can be done manually without running the engine. With key on engine off, monitor the signal wire voltage from idle (close throttle) and up to high idle (WOT or wide open throttle position) by moving the throttle linkage. The transistion from idle to high idle should be reflected in the voltage readings like a gradually increasing pattern. If there is a sudden change or a glitch, replace the TPS sensor. Please note also that a regular tps sensor usually has 3 wires: a voltage reference wire, a signal wire and a ground wire. Except the signal wires, the other 2 wires should have steady voltage readings regardless of the throttle linkage position.
For advance testing, garages can usually monitor the voltage of the TPS signal wire while the engine is running. Using a special scanner, the voltage can be watched while cruising in order to see if the value of the signal wire voltage will change. This is particularly important if the code P1705 only appears intermittently. For precaution, check the integrity of the signal wires from the TPS sensor plug-in up to 12 inches away. To do this, splice the wiring harness and check if there is any short (bump) in the signal wire which could be rubbing metal before this code came on.
With regard to the AT Oil Temp light and non-shifting, I wonder if there is a connector not properly seated on the transmission - it sounds to me like the engine control module and transmission control module are not talking! They have to talk if you want the tranny to shift out of 1st. By default, it will work in P, R, N, and 1 without input from the engine control module, but that unit tells it when/if to up or down shift through the other forward gears.
The Lemon law in California states that if it is brought in for four times for the SAME thing.
I have secured an attorney to deal with Subaru.
Then last week I hear that Subaru and a few other car mfgs have been cited for engines that burn oil, and NTSA has recommended they pay owners for related engine problems.
Thinking I should have bought a Honda!