Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

gagrice · February 2013

Would you rather read it in Forbes?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/hannahelliott/2012/12/28/tesla-and-spacex-founder-mu- sk-buys-17-million-bel-air-mansion/

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/09/25/questions-about-electric-cars-as-a-manufa- cturer-struggles/

My issue is based on the fact that the green agenda is directly tied to campaign contributions. I don't like spending $140,000 to build an EV that some fat cat buys for $97k then gets a tax credit of $7500. That is what is wrong with this country.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/12/28/Tesla-CEO-Buys-17-Million-Man- sion-Got-465-Million-Govt-Loan

ateixeira · February 2013

Would you rather read it in Forbes?

YES.

Of course!

And NO to NYT as a source. How lame that all they could say is their writer failed to use "good judgement" when he wrote a piece of fiction.

Elon makes very little from Tesla, in fact he's the lowest paid automotive CEO I can think of.

He makes the big bucks from the SpaceX gig.

Notable is that Forbes does not imply that the government's money paid for the house. You can't buy a 27M mansion making less than half a million a year.

Only a source that should not be taken seriously would make that claim...

NYT and the other source should be tossed. Better yet you really shouldn't be reading that garbage to begin with.

So yes, I'd rather read the real story in Forbes.

gagrice · February 2013

Notable is that Forbes does not imply that the government's money paid for the house. You can't buy a 27M mansion making less than half a million a year.

So why does someone worth $2.4 billion need our $465 million in tax dollars to finance his EV scam. It does seem suspicious that he closed on the house soon after getting the tax payers money. Of course the discounted price was on the stipulation that the owner get his money in 2012 to take advantage of the lower CG taxes last year.

http://blogs.wsj.com/developments/2012/12/21/elon-musk-goes-from-renter-to-owner- -in-bel-air/

imidazol97 · February 2013

A little data about Tesla and our (my) tax money:
Tesla Motors  Received $465 million in stimulus, of which over $16 million went into the pockets of 2 owners.

Elon Musk: Obama donor, DNC donor. Tesla Motors Founder. Also CEO of Solar City which received its own $275 million in stimulus funding. Between Solar City and Tesla Motors, Musk personally pocketed $15 million immediately after receiving their stimulus.
Steve Westly: Tesla Motors CEO. Pocketed $1.2 million immediately after their stimulus payment.
Steve Spinner: Tesla consultant. Obama donor, DNC donor. Then appointed to an executive position within the Dept of Energy.
Nicholas Pritzker: Part owner of Tesla Motors. Obama donor. Related to a number of Obama advisors and high-profile donors.
Sergei Brin: Part owner of Tesla Motors. Obama supporter.
Larry Page: Google CEO, Part owner of Tesla Motors. Obama supporter.
Eric Schmidt: Part owner of Tesla Motors and Obama administration advisor.
Dan Reicher: Part owner of Tesla Motors and Obama administration advisor.

Things you won't get at CBS and ABC

ateixeira · February 2013

Do you really think he's committing fraud to buy a house valued at 1% of his net worth?

He was already living there. He wanted to pimp it out, so he had to buy it to make those changes.

Maybe he'll build a landing pod for his space ship. LOL

ateixeira · February 2013

From a source that labels the story "stimulus scandal", and look at the author - hardly balanced.

You guys really need better sources.

If you lean conservative at least try Politico.

ateixeira · February 2013

Now that I think about it, I bet he wanted to install quick charging stations in his garage, too.

imidazol97 · February 2013

>least try Politico.

You gotta be kidding. May as well try ABC/CBS if you want biased info. Maybe for the beltway folks they like NBC and the others.

:P

gagrice · February 2013

You guys really need better sources.

I went with NYT as liberal as they come and that was not to your liking. Anyone that can look at the $billions spent on the Green Agenda and not see the corruption, are not looking very hard. Or they live in a fog. Of course you are not likely to see the truth on MSM like MSNBC. Thankfully there are a lot of people digging deep to expose the corruption in our state and Federal governments. None any worse than the EV scams. Unless a vehicle is profitable on its own merit it should not be subsidized. That little tax break on the Prius and others was a pittance compared to what has happened in the last few years.

Tesla cost to tax payers $140,000 each
Volt cost to tax payers $250,000 each.
Those are unsustainable giveaways to the rich.

gagrice · February 2013

People around DC live off the rest of US. Low unemployment and robust economy. They need to have 35% of the Nations welfare recipients like CA has to understand the mess this country is in.

ateixeira · February 2013

They're not exactly spinning it in favor of Elon, check out this story:

SpaceX, based in Hawthorne, Calif., and Orbital Sciences, based in Dulles, Va., are under NASA contract, worth up to $3.5 billion, to lift 40 tons of cargo to the International Space Station over 20 flights.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/60259.html#ixzz2M8M2UgZY

ateixeira · February 2013

What's not to my liking is any writing with an agenda.

The story on the Tesla set out, from the get go, to discredit EVs. There was no intent to gather any facts, just to see exactly how much lying Broder/NYT could get away with.

gagrice · February 2013

The story on the Tesla set out, from the get go, to discredit EVs. There was no intent to gather any facts, just to see exactly how much lying Broder/NYT could get away with.

Welcome to the 21st Century. The very reason I quit watching TV in 2006. It is mostly lies and half truths. A person has to look at every source and try to squeeze out the truth. Many times it is totally lost in the process. I could spend days trying to find out the real truth about Musk and the $17,000,000 in cash to buy that house. Sure he is worth a supposed $2.4 billion. Is that on paper minus the $100,000,000 he was whining about?

I don't get worked up about a few million in research grants to universities. When you hand half a billion to a Solyndra and a few months later they file for bankruptcy. And leave a HUGE environmental mess for the tax payers to clean up. Or bail out Tesla to the tune of half a billion. I get ticked off.

ateixeira · February 2013

Solyndra has been the poster boy but Telsa does appear to be paying the loans back early, so I wouldn't group them together.

Fisker is a mess. If anyone wants to criticize EVs, and wants to be accurate, bust on them all you want.

I respect Elon Musk - he took no crap, called them out. Good for him.

ateixeira · February 2013

GM targets 20% increase in plug-in hybrid output this year

Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20130227/OEM05/302279869#ixzz2M8hojBb5
Follow us: @Automotive_News on Twitter | AutoNews on Facebook

ateixeira · February 2013

http://green.autoblog.com/2013/02/27/musk-vows-to-repay-teslas-federal-loans-in-- five-years-not-ten/

gagrice · February 2013

If Tesla makes enough money to pay off our loan the stock will bounce back. Right now it is losing $3.70 per share. Hardly a company I would buy with or without the bad press from NYT. The stock is only down about 10% from its all time peak. Think about Apple, it is down 30% on negative comments in the media. And they have $137 BILLION in cash. Musk just needs to sell cars and quit whining about the media. Only 6% of US citizens believe the media anyway.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/februar- y_2013/only_6_rate_news_media_as_very_trustworthy

ateixeira · March 2013

Maybe they're smarter than we give them credit for.

iluvmysephia1 · March 2013

I respect Elon Musk - he took no crap, called them out. Good for him.

I think the man has done a great job and I like that he works so hard to promote his company. He cares about making a great car, I would love a Tesla S sedan, that is an awesome all-electric car. It looks sharp, looks to have plenty of room inside, and it is all-electric. Sure, it's $49,000.

I sincerely hope that Tesla Motors succeeds.

Tesla S sedan

gagrice · March 2013

Sure, it's $49,000.

That was what they projected it to sell for. The 2012 shows a base price of $59k. I don't know how many they sold at that price. Now the "S" has a base price of $97k. It is a rich man's toy subsidized by US tax payers. I doubt we ever see a Tesla for under $50k.

gagrice · March 2013

Just don't touch any metal parts while doing this.

stever · March 2013

I think that's how Zap cars got their name.

gagrice · March 2013

Don't mention ZAAP. I lost money on that EV stock. Interesting story on another EV scam CODA. Not much longer for this world.

On Nov. 10, 2011, Gov. Jerry Brown came to Los Angeles to help open the new headquarters of CODA Automotive. The company was rolling out its CODA Sedan, which boasted new battery technology that would deliver unprecedented range for an all-electric car. The company claimed it would bring 650 high-tech jobs to L.A.

To the naysayers, were saying yes to solar, yes to CODA, Brown said. Were saying yes to a Los Angeles thats on the move.

But though Brown and Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa did most of the talking at the days ceremony, it was City Council president Eric Garcetti who deserved most of the credit. Garcetti played the key role in enticing CODA to move its headquarters from Santa Monica by dangling $1 million in city redevelopment money  even as he received $8,000 in contributions from CODA executives and their spouses.

And yet, a little more than a year later, CODA is in trouble. The company never got close to its goal of 650 employees, topping out at about 270 before it began laying off workers in December. A showroom at the Westfield Century City mall has closed. It appears the company has sold fewer than 100 cars.

http://www.calwatchdog.com/2013/03/01/green-jobs-lies-the-los-angeles-edition/?u- tm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook

ateixeira · March 2013

Cora's car was competitive with the 1986 Honda Civic.

That was a bad gamble from the start.

gagrice · March 2013

That was a bad gamble from the start.

And the $100,000 Tesla family EV sedan is a good gamble?? Not anyway I can think of. Except for the con artist that sold it to the Feds.

ateixeira · March 2013

They expect to be profitable next quarter, so lets see.

A loaded 3 series overlaps with the Model S in price.

Did you see in the other thread that an Escalade can hit $87k? :surprise:

gagrice · March 2013

No way to compare them. The EV is not practical for anyone but a short haul commuter, and a rich one at that. And how would you get a BMW 3 up to $100k? Even the hybrid would not be that expensive with every option.

And how does a sedan compete with an Escalade? The Escalade I drove in 2007 was over $70k. A real apples to lemons comparison.

When Musk makes a profit selling cars for $100k that cost $140k I will believe in his genius.

ateixeira · March 2013

I said they overlap. You can get a 3 series with a 4 banger up to $50k. The big sedans go way higher.

A Valet would park the Tesla out front but never the 3 series.

We have to remember the target demographic owns 4-5 vehicles, so this would not be their trip car.

A toy for the rich but at least they make them here and power them with domestic energy sources as well.

gagrice · March 2013

A toy for the rich but at least they make them here and power them with domestic energy sources as well.

How much is made here? My guess is less than 50% of the Tesla is USA made. The GM Volt is only 45% USA made. We don't have the natural resources to build EV or Hybrids. CA has an electric shortage so I hope none sell here to suck down our energy supply.

They are Corporate Welfare to the MAX. One of many reasons the Rich in this country keep getting richer. People that pay enough taxes to get the tax credit don't need the subsidy. Maybe a few that would buy the Leaf. The Tesla is a government payoff for favors rendered pure and simple. When out tax dollars are spent they will be gone like all the rest of the con men.

ateixeira · March 2013

I've heard GM fans say they will eventually shift more parts production to the US.

Not sure about the Tesla's domestic content.

ateixeira · March 2013

http://www.laobserved.com/biz/2013/02/la_electric_car_comp.php

ateixeira · March 2013

Tesla has 55% domestic content per the Monroney sticker:

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb438/dennismacSF/dennisFiskerKarma/ModelSMo- nroney.jpg

gagrice · March 2013

At some point the technology has to be economically viable."

That is an ABSOLUTE FALSE statement. EVs may NEVER become economically viable. Wishing they will does not make it so. That is why throwing tax dollars at them is SOOO wrong. Think about where we would be if the government decided which auto maker would survive and which would not. Oh yeah, that is what they are trying to do now. CODA did not get as much as Tesla and did not last as long.

hpmctorque · March 2013

I agree that our tax dollars should not be used to subsidize certain propulsion systems over others. I'm okay with the government subsidizing basic research, but not investments in companies. That's the function of venture capital and the market, where skin is in the game.

I don't think anyone can predict whether EVs will ever be a better value proposition than ICs. I think it would take a major breakthrough in batteries. From what I've read that's a major challenge. So far the improvements have been incremental, and in the meantime IC systems, including transmissions and accessories, continue to become more efficient.

gagrice · March 2013

You are spot on top to finish.

stever · March 2013

I don't think so. If the US hadn't bailed out GM and Chrysler, the economy would really be in a mess. The auto industry is about the only bright spot around and I don't think that would have been true without the bailouts.

I know here in Michigan, those jobs bring in some real green.

Plus there's a lot of infrastructure money floating around. Building a railroad spur or subsidizing the expansion of utilities is another way the government invests in companies.

gagrice · March 2013

I don't think so. If the US hadn't bailed out GM and Chrysler, the economy would really be in a mess.

The investments are in companies that are failures. The economy is in worse shape for the middle class than it was 5 years ago. Handing out welfare and extended unemployment is purely political. The Stimulus could have been used on real projects to get our infrastructure back in shape. Less than 1% was spent on real projects that hire real people that are out of work. Buying cell phones and backing phony auto loans is just creating the next bubble. We will probably never agree until we look like Greece or Spain. It is headed our direction at the speed of light.

stever · March 2013

Everything goes in cycles and even my little depressed area has had a little pick-up.

Take it from me - if you tune out 99% of the incessant political squabbling of the true believers you'll enjoy a much nicer (and quieter) bike ride. Having to lean either left or right all the time isn't nearly as much fun as active leaning. :P

imidazol97 · March 2013

>I'm okay with the government subsidizing basic research, but not investments in companies. That's the function of venture capital and the market, where skin is in the game.

But this rewards certain folk who donate to our campaigns. Need more political access? Donate.

I've been around through the green evolution since people started building solar panels to catch the sun's heat on their roofs and use it for hot water or storing it. The things that were energy and cost efficient have caught on and have been incorporated into some houses and businesses. But the solar cells for charging your house battery to be used later in the day haven't. The windmills as a similar charge and store have not worked out. AFter 30 years, there's still a lot that doesn't work despite being touted by the greenies (and some politicians).

stever · March 2013

True, but "local" solar adoption is still just a drop in the bucket. Must be all those campaign contributions from the oil companies holding it down. :shades:

imidazol97 · March 2013

>If the US hadn't bailed out GM and Chrysler, the economy would really be in a mess. The auto industry is about the only bright spot around and I don't think that would have been true without the bailouts.

Glad to see you say that. Amazing how much ridicule was heaped on folks like myself in forums who said that the bailouts were critical to not having a worse collapse economically. I even suggest more bailout money would help GM further. I don't agree with how the money was spread politically, but keeping part of GM going and keeping the suppliers operating was a big help to the economy.

I see the Volt existing as a result of the government's push. That is the future in this country for any EV rather than being electric only which limits range. What's needed is reduction in battery cost for the couple of vehicles with the IC assist to bring the car's prices down.

gagrice · March 2013

Pretty wild vehicle. I think you will see more of that type EV than others. They seem exempt from all the safety crappola on 4 wheeled vehicles. The 3 wheeled EV we tested was only legal on roads posted 35 MPH or less. That looks like it would go more than 25 MPH.

PS
I just expect governments to live within their means like I do. Neither a left or right ideology.

stever · March 2013

We all know plenty of people who don't live within their means. Borrowing and bankruptcy goes back centuries.

A few people with insufficient means are probably putting deposits down on Leafs and Volts and trying to buy i-Roads right this very minute. :shades:

gagrice · March 2013

Amazing how much ridicule was heaped on folks like myself in forums who said that the bailouts were critical to not having a worse collapse economically.

If the GM bailout wasn't so blatantly a pay back to the UAW, I might agree. And the biggest share of the loss will be filling the Pension plan for just the UAW. The non represented folks got screwed in the bailout.

As for the Volt, I don't see how a vehicle that is less than 50% USA made is a plus for the economy? There is no doubt EVs and Hybrids are a bigger environmental problem than a plain vanilla ICE vehicle. So where is the Green in them, except a few people reaping all the benefits of the Green Agenda.

gagrice · March 2013

We all know plenty of people who don't live within their means. Borrowing and bankruptcy goes back centuries.

A few people with insufficient means are probably putting deposits down on Leafs and Volts and trying to buy i-Roads right this very minute.

I agree, but when they drag all of US down with them I have a problem with it. The current Sub-prime loans from GM is a good example. The idiocy of spending your way out of debt goes back to the Roman empire. I see US heading that direction faster than a High Speed Bullet Train.

General Motors has flooded financial markets with auto-backed securities in an effort to offload its risky subprime loans onto banks, a strategy industry insiders say could produce a bubble.

High production costs and falling profit-per-car have led auto manufacturers to turn to financing to earn higher profits. Automakers have capitalized on lending by not only loaning money to customers but also packaging and selling those loans to investors in a manner similar to the sale of mortgage-backed securities that created the housing bubble.

http://freebeacon.com/fannie-motors/

http://www.gmfinancial.com/dealers/product-offerings/subprime-auto-loans.aspx

stever · March 2013

And people can dig up a bunch of links where some person or company got a SBA loan or some grant money or other kind of government help, and made a go of it and wound up repaying the money ten-fold just in taxes.

Rome fell apart but lots of those public works roads they built are still there. :shades:

ateixeira · March 2013

I agree that our tax dollars should not be used to subsidize certain propulsion systems over others

Yeah, but doesn't big oil received huge subsidies?

The global fossil fuel subsidies were $523 billion and renewable energy subsidies $88 billion in 2011.[1] According to Fatih Birol, Chief Economist at the International Energy Agency

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidies#cite_note-1

Why are we complaining about the $88 billion and given the half trillion a pass?

gagrice · March 2013

Rome fell apart but lots of those public works roads they built are still there.

Don't expect any roads we build to last 2000 years. 50 years and they are falling apart.

SBA loans are limited to $6 million. And friends that I know that tried to get them were not able to. You better have a good plan that is near fool proof. I don't know what to tell you if you cannot see all the loan guarantees we have put out over the last 20 years are political pay backs. The rich are getting the money and NOT creating jobs as promised.

gagrice · March 2013

Why are we complaining about the $88 billion and given the half trillion a pass?

Don't forget the writer is part of the Green Agenda. Probably makes a small fortune spinning the truth. Every time I research these so called fossil fuel subsidies they turn out to be legitimate tax deductions. There is a HUGE difference. Giving a half a billion to a campaign contributor and then watch the company file for BK to avoid paying US back, should be prosecuted. We are now reaping the losses from the last Green Agenda under Carter. There are thousands of wind generators no longer usable. Many NEVER produced any energy. Only provided cash for those involved. Same with defunct Solar farms. Not to mention chumps like myself that bought into the Solar Panel scams of the 1980s. I don't trust any program with a 20 year payoff as the Solar Panel industry is now pushing. The panels go bad, the company is out of business and you still owe the bank that holds a 2nd against your home. The whole Green Agenda stinks in my nostrils. I also have some worthless stock to prove I was not always this way.

stever · March 2013

they turn out to be legitimate tax deductions

Right, just like those "legitimate" second home tax deductions. Depends on whose ax is getting gored.

Here's another fun one:

The fastest Ferrari road car ever comes with just one name (Yahoo)

It's a gas/electric hybrid.

Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

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