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"Under certain conditions, full traction of the vehicle and power to the 4 wheels cannot be maintained, even though the traction control system is in operation. Do not drive the vehicle under any speed or maneuvering conditions which may cause the vehicle to lose traction control. In situations where the road surface is covered with ice or snow, your vehicle should be fitted with snow tires or tire chains. Always drive at an appropriate and cautious speed for the present road conditions."
In the second sentence of the above paragraph, I will guess it is misstated and the word "control" in the second sentence should be omitted. This sentence then fits the context in which it is inserted. This portion of the paragraph would then read:
"Under certain conditions, full traction of the vehicle and power to the 4 wheels cannot be maintained, even though the traction control system is in operation. Do not drive the vehicle under any speed or maneuvering conditions which may cause the vehicle to lose traction."
Maybe you figured this out, but I didn't catch it if you did.
These days, we can buy very neat NAV systems with a 6.5- 7 inch monitor that can tuck into the console. I guess the aftermarket NAV systems have more flexibility and functions. Many of them also has a port for rear-view camera. How do you guys think about it? The complete system (DVD-GPS, retractable monitor, and AM/FM/CD) costs more than $2,500, though.
Steve, Host
You wrote "---Locking the differential is mostly an off-road feature and owners need to understand it is not something you turn off and on on the road when there is a puddle or rain." I never implied or suggested that one should lock the center diff. when faced only with a puddle or rain. GSJ3's vehicle evidently became temporarily undrivable in the scenario he described, in which he deliberately put the truck into a slide on snow and ice in order to see what it would do and how it would react. The solution would have been to lock the center diff. before executing those maneuvers, but the question remains as to whether the TRAC is also then defeated.
GSJ3's brief anecdotal report raises concerns about whether this vehicle might actually become unsafe when driving on UNIFORMLY icy/snow-covered roads while its center diff. is UNLOCKED, and the VSC and TRAC remain active. Furthermore, UNIFORMLY icy/snowy roads are not at all uncommon in many parts of the country at certain times of year, especially in rural areas, where roads often go unplowed or infrequently plowed and salted. (I, for example, drive on rural roads quite extensively as part of my job.) And of course, there are winter storms that may be so heavy that even the best equipped county road crews can hardly keep up with them, even on an interstate or turnpike. (I, for example, drive on rural roads quite extensively as part of my job.) Thus, I respectfully disagree with your blanket assertion that "...In 99% of on road driving, leaving the system alone is the appropriate response for the safest driving."
Toyota's "Product Knowledge Booklet" for the '03 4Runner, says on page 7:
"The heart of the 4.7 liter V8 engine's full-time 4WD system is the Torsen torque-sensing limited-slip differential with locking capability... For more extreme conditions requiring maximum traction, the center differential can be locked, providing a 50/50 front/rear torque split."
This same booklet say, on page 9:
"Vehicle Skid Control is a system that employs the sensors, actuators, and computer electronics of the anti-lock braking and TRAC Traction Control systems to help reduce vehicle skids caused by oversteer and understeer conditions. In an oversteer situation, VSC controls the engine output and brakes the front and rear wheels on the outer side of the turning circle to relax the oversteering tendency (when the rear end slides out). In an understeer situation (when the front end "pushes" the vehicle away from its intended path), VSC controls the engine output and at the same time brakes the front wheels and inside rear wheel to help control the understeering tendency of the vehicle.... Four wheel drive models are equipped with four wheel TRAC Traction Control, which, when the vehicle is in 4x4 mode, monitors all four wheels for excess wheel spin. Both systems use selective selective brake and throttle intervention to control wheel spin."
And finally, on page 8, this booklet says:
"...All 4Runner models are equipped with... transfer cases equipped with a Torsen torque-sensing limited-slip center differential. In addition to the ability to transfer torque to the wheels with traction, the differential is set up with a rear-drive bias. The torque split in normal conditions is 40% front and 60% rear. When the front wheels slip, up to 71% of the torque can go to the rear wheels. When the rear wheels slip, up to 53% of the torque can go to the front wheels. This rear wheel torque bias favors controlled tracking on- and off-road, whether decelerating or accelerating. This system is further enhanced with VSC and TRAC Traction Control. TRAC will further reduce wheel spin in low traction situations... enhanced low-traction performance [is] available through a locking center differential and a two-speed transfer case. With the center differential lock switch engaged, the front and rear axles locked together for better grip in low-traction situations..."
I agree that this is a great system, but I don't agree with the assertion that "...In 99% of on road driving, leaving the system alone is the appropriate response for the safest driving."
In other words, I don't believe, based on my preliminary driving experiences with this truck while negotiating LONG stretches of uniformly icy/snowy on-road conditions, that the center diff. should only be locked in certain OFF-ROAD situations. I do believe I'm wise enough to read the prevailing surface and weather conditions in order to recognise when it would be quite appropriate and advisable to lock my truck's center diff., and by the same token, I can well recognize when it would subsequently become appropriate to unlock it. (Likewise, I also understand when it would be appropriate to shift the transfer case into its low gear setting.)
Since I first began driving mid-sized SUVs in 11/95, I've probably logged at least 100,000 "SUV" miles, all (fortunately) without ANY accidents, fender-benders, scrapes, strandings, or other mishaps whatsoever. And in 5/96, I quite safely drove a friend's 4WD Grand Cherokee over a highly challenging mountainous off-road trail near Thurmond WVa., after she froze-up and panicked about 500 yards up the trail. I've also had other challenging off-roading experiences in my last 4WD Explorer, including other mountainous areas in WVa., as well as in the Allegheny Mountains around Altoona, PA. (I used to do a good deal of railroad photography and "rail-fanning".) While I frankly don't care much for the very real bodily and financial risks of non-trivial off-roading, my point here is that I'm no stranger to being in non-trivial off-road situations with an expensive SUV, nor do I believe I'm just any chump when it comes to merely driving an SUV on-road.
Everyone here comes to the table with various levels of 4wd/ off road experience. Let's not debate the resume of skills of particular drivers as the real issue is understanding the features and use of the 4Runner.
Yes I think leaving the VSC alone in most on road situations is the preferred and suggested method by Toyota.
Having seen the original press videos on the 2003 4Runner, I think in deep snow locking the diff would be beneficial.
On road ice and low traction situations? I can't speak from personal experience. I do know that the VSC was designed to "find" the best traction in on road conditions and since, yes, diff lock disables VSC and TRAC, I would not do it myself.
In the conditions you describe with constant no/low traction ice, I simply do not know. I have limited experience with that situation and don't know how the VSC would react. My gut tells me to lock the diff in that particular situation. I agree with what you are saying there.
Toyota describes VSC in this way:
"VSC is an electronic system designed to help the driver maintain cehicle control under adverse conditions. It is not a substitute for safe driving practices...."
"VSC+TRAC- VSC can help compensate for a loss of road traction that can cause a vehicle to skid....through a dedicated computer that analyzes info such as yaw rate, G-force and steering angle, the system... monitors speed and direction and compares the vehicle's dirextion of travel with the driver's steering, accel and braking inputs. TRAC... helps to avoid slippage...utilizing brake and engine throttle control...distrubutes torque to the wheel(s) with the most available traction and helps ensure vehicle control...on slippery roads."
When I bought the vehicle in January I remember that the back would spring up nicely.
Does anyone know how to remedy this ailment?
Should I take it to the dealer? It has 13,000 miles - should be covered by warranty
Thanks!
Thanks again for any input or experiences.
Sounds like gsj3 got a spin started and the combination of his spin/slide and the direction his steering wheel was pointed caused the system to think it had no choice but to reduce power dramatically and persistently. I guess you could argue that's just what the system is intended to do, though lots of decisions are made in the design of the system about just how conservative it will be. Maybe this one is too conservative (for some people at least) in some situations.
I'll bet the lawyers had a hand in this, and that includes the decision not to have an independent "VSC Off" button.
As a previous poster said, systems like VSC can make things more boring.
BTW, azrunner, you should take your rear hatch in for warranty service. I'm betting that one of the gas struts has lost its pressure. The door should move up by itself rather forcefully once you have gotten it more than abut 25% of the way up.
Well JB I was/am in your situation and like you I started out looking for Accord, Avalon, ES330 etc. But I have a dog and they just didn't provide the room we needed to travel with him. So then I started looking at the car-based SUV's since many suggested I would prefer the drive to this better, well here was my assessments about the one's I have tested.
Honda Pilot= very roomy, nice gadgets, quite sluggish to accelerate and kind of felt more like a big minivan than an SUV. Also most dealers were starting at MSRP on up due to so-called high demand and limited inventory.
Acura MDX= drove well, handled well, ample acceleration, but to me it had a very plain interior for the price and the exterior looked like a minivan.
RX330= I like the styling of this alot, however, you might've read in some of my posts that the sloping back took away cargo space and it also decreased visibility in the back window for me. You may not have this problem if you are taller however. Had alot of nice features but once again because of limited supply dealers seem very hesistant about going more than like $500 under MSRP.
I'm going to combine the following for space sake...lol
I have driven the Sequoia, Explorer, Navigator, Escalade, and just this weekend the 4Runner.
Of all of them I found the Sequoia and 4Runner to be equivalent, excellent handling, excellent acceleration, roomy, comfortable, solid feeling. However, driving around all day in the very large Sequioa seemed cumbersome to me not to mention it was just too large for my needs. So the 4Runner suited me just fine.
The rest of the vehicles I drove are not really worth discussing since I thought the 4Runner and Sequoia was the best. However, if you have questions about those you can just ask.
My personal assessment in moving from sedan to car-based SUV to truck-based SUV is that you WILL notice a longer braking distance, however, this is to be expected since you are increasing the weight of vehicle. Secondly, IMO in the SUV's you gain more visibility as far as seeing in front and behind you is concerned but you do have larger blind spots so you have to make sure to give the quick head check before switching lanes etc. Although, this should be done in any vehicle. And finally IMHO the car-based SUV's are practical, they will take you where you need to go but they are by no means exciting to drive OR exciting to look at (i.e. Highlander, Pilot). But if these things do not concern you then you may want to check them out, depending on your price range, I would consider Highlander, Pilot, Acura and RX330.
Hope I helped some!
Is the dealer crazy or am I??
IMO, this hill hold is probably a neat feature, but with an auto tranny and two feet, I'll probably engage it just to show off for the neighbors. In fact, what's Toyota got in the works to save me from myself if I happen to need hill assist while heading DOWN a big hill? LOL! Maybe at the very least, it's a good indicater that the truck's computers are in working order. :-)
Larry
We've had snow on the ground since the end of Oct. here and lots of chance to drive in it.
This year I bought a horse trailer and have been towing that too. Last week I drove into the field to fetch the trailer and the snow was higher than the bottom of the truck. I left it in high range ( low range is worse in the snow) and locked the center diff. I was probably plowing about 3 in of snow with the bottom of
the truck and it wasn't too bad. That is to say we pretty much went through without too much spinning of the wheels. I drove around a bit because that is what guys with toys and felt reasonably confident I could go any where in the field without getting stuck. A couple of times I would stop and let the truck settle and the unlock the center dif and the truck would spin and then lurch forward repeating this until it would just just be stuck. I would be out in an instant once the diff would be locked.
I decided against trying to pull out the trailer as if I got stuck I'd be blocking the path for others.
Around here(Calgary) we get some warm periods and soon will have some melt.
With the center diff locked there is some loss of steering control and would not recommend it on highway or secondary roads. In fact I don't ever use mine (2nd winter on 03 sport V8) unless I'm stuck or anticipate being stuck. The regular system (AWD)works so well there is no call to use it.
I found that with the Diff locked and the VSC off both the skid control and the traction control systems were disabled.
I find that the systems on this 4 runner work a little differently from the ones on my previous 01 Sequoia. On the Sequoia the VSC cut in right away. As soon as the front plowed or the back end came loose the warning light was flashing and beeping and the truck immediately was brought back in line ,sometimes with quite a jerk. On the 4 runner , it allows me to get just a little loose,that is to go into just a bit of a slide before cutting in. I really like this as I can have just a bit of fun but can't get into trouble.
Note: for deep snow the standard Dunlops don't cut it after the first 2/32 of tread is gone.
I use 4x4 Alpins and find them a good compromise. Good on dry/wet , excellent on ice / snow and more than sufficient in deep snow. (there are better if it's just deep snow)
Anyone thinking buying one of these would be wise to have the dealer take these Dunlops off from the start and pay the extra to have something good put on .
Anyways that my 2 cents.
Cheers Steve.
Visibility in the 4Runner is ok, though it isn't as good as the Honda Pilot. The Honda folks really seem to understand visibility, though they don't seem to care about real off-road and towing.
From years of driving trucks and pickups I learned to use my side mirrors a lot, especially since they were the only way to see to the side/rear of the vehicle, and there was typically no inside rearview mirror. The way that many people adjust their mirrors is to have the side of the vehicle visible in the mirrors, and in my opinion that's not the best way to do it. It results in substantial blind spots, and wastes part of the mirror coverage.
I hope I'm allowed to post a link here, to a site that describes an alternate procedure that works well. http://cartalk.cars.com/Columns/mirrors.html
It takes some getting used to, but it's probably the way that outside mirrors were intended to be used in the first place, and in many vehicles it eliminates blind spots entirely.
Thanks for the response, after my post I read on the internet about it's low test scores in low speed fender benders. Geeze, I haven't even taken the thing off road yet and I already cracked it! I imagine those who regularly go offroad have dings, dents, cracks and god knows what else. I love my 4Runner but come on, let's make these bumpers a little more durable. A $6,000 cavalier has better bumpers!
There is actually a repair that can be done without replacing the bumper cover. Our local dealer here has a guy that does fiberglass repair, and can make it look new. Call around, I bet you can get that fixed inexpensively.
Actually, I'm not sure if their fullsize pu's have 5mph bumpers or 2.5 but they used to have a policy of only 5mph bumpers on their vehicles.
You would have had the same damage or worse on almost any other suv you bought.
Since bumper construction isn't uniform, you could have hit a certain area and done less damage but broken a mount or lens on another suv with better rated bumpers. You can't really second guess minor fender benders.
Sounds like you got off lucky with rather "invisible" damage?
A Cavalier has better bumpers? Keep things in perspective, in real accidents where safety matters the 4Runner is the BEST mid size suv in production today. Do you want to save a coule bucks on repairs or do you want to walk? Both would be nice but the majority of suv's and cars use 2.5 mph bumpers.
I respectfully say stop complaining and be thankful you drive one of the safest vehicles available.
I read that about the side mirrors somewhere a few months ago, you might have posted it here before. Well, I tried it, and it works great at eliminating blind spots, I don't plan on going back.
As far as the bumpers are concerned, do you think that the bumper on the 4runner is soft in slow speed tests because it has extra protection for pedestrians in the case of a car hitting them? I know when the 4runner came out, they advertised that the bumper was safer to pedestrians.. who knows?!?
I totally forgot about that but I remember reading the same thing. Toyota designed the bumpers to be pedestrian friendly which is also why the bumper (the REAL steel bumper under the painted cover) is as low as is possible. It is just under the lower bumper air intake. For reference, most older suv's have the bumper just under the headlights.
Another tricky trade-off involves the IIHS 40 MPH offset crashes (http://www.iihs.org/news_releases/2003/pr113003.htm) compared to a traditional 30 MPH full barrier crash. The IIHS test forces the vehicle to absorb 78% more crash energy, and it must absorb this energy with only half (one side of) the front end. It's not just a much more severe crash, it's a different type of crash. You can't assume that in a sub-30 MPH crash you'd be safer in a vehicle that did better in the IIHS crash. As a matter of fact, some auto engineers have maintained that to make these (extremely severe and unusual) crashes more survivable, you make less severe crashes more punishing on the drivers and on the vehicles they hit. The reason is that one thing you have to do to perform well on the IIHS crash (as compared to a 30 MPH barrier crash) is to make the front end "harder" to absorb all that extra energy without exhausting its crushability too early in the crash.
All this assumes that the vehicles one is comparing are equally well designed, of course. But even if they are, how do you (who are driving a 4Runner) want to balance your possible extra survivability in the most extreme and very rare accidents with the damage your harder vehicle might do to a softer or lighter vehicle in the "average" accident? And what if a driver in a more-massive Excursion or pickup or Hummer whacks you?
Lots of trade-offs and judgement calls based on perceived odds and priorities. I don't know about you, but it makes me want to drive defensively and be cautious about interpreting tests and statistics.
Of course $300k is a bit steep.
The 4Runner is a mid size suv.
I just went out and measured my wifes 2003 Avalon seats size vs. my 4Runner's.
Guess which is larger??
Yes the Avalon. Roughly size is 1" deeper and 1" wider than the Runner.
Avalon 20"D x 21 1/2W"
Runner 19"D x 20 1/4W"
Overall the Avalon's 2.99 sq. ft. of seat area is 10% larger than the 2.68 sq. ft. of the 4Runner. You do feel that difference, the extra 1" depth is very obvious. The Avalon's seat really feels much larger than the measurements show, a very comfortable seat. The Avy's seats are firm vs. most full size cars, the Runner's just a little firmer.
I had a older (3rd generation) 2002 4Runner before purchasing my 2004 last week and the difference in size and comfort of the seats between these SUV's is huge, I am very pleased with this upgrade.
Give yourself some break-in time, you may adjust to the firmer seats and may eventually prefer them. Remember this is a truck and for now will not have the softer seats found in a cars. The SR5's with the cloth seats are even firmer.
If you want or need larger seats in a SUV, try the Sequoia or Land Cruiser.
Larry
However in the typical 1 MPH bumps where you or someone else is trying to get out of a parking space or bumping up against a wall or pillar, I think these guards (if they are good quality) will probably prevent cosmetic damage to those oh-so-soft painted urethane(?) bumper covers. And I suspect the bumper guards won't be damaged significantly either.
I'm not interested in big, obtrusive accessories, so I've looked at the Waag brand bumper guards (the front ones are called "front runners" and are much lower profile than brush guards) for the 4Runner. One of the bigger authorized mail-order dealers offers them for about $535, shipping included. Installation is not, but it's reported to be easy. In post 154 of the 4Runner accessories thread lukeg posts a link to some pictures (thanks lukeg!). Seems ok to me, so I'm taking the plunge. If folks are interested, I'll post my experience with installation, but I'm not promising to go out and ram something to test them.
http://autoanything.com/grilleguard_brushguard_waag_talandhadas/d- - - - - - - - efault.asp
Black is the standard color, Nissan silver and bright silver are additional cost options, about $120.00 more. Also available in stainless, I need to get a price for this. I am trying to determine which one will look best on my white 4Runner.
You can call WAAG at 800 492 2492 with questions. I had their rear bumper guard and taillight guards on my 02 Runner, they are quality accessories.
Larry
I should have been more specific about cost in my post. The $535 figure includes both front and rear bumper guards in black for the 4Runner. Cost varies depending on model.
Call WAAG customer service 800 492 2452 for information.
I would like to see other manufactures designs. This model from WAAG is very good, it does not draw alot of attention to the front of the truck like a full brush bar does. Depends on what protection you need and what design you want.
Have driven HL extensively but only short tests of 4Runner.
Anyone care to comment/compare/contrast especially on the less obvious differences...
thanks!
srp
I know we have them in the SF Bay Area -- test drove an '04 AWD Limited a couple of weeks ago.
2.all power window switches
3. Backlit door handles
1) Make 3rd row seats available with NAV and sunroof.
2) Have all colors for all models of 4runners with whatever options you want.
Anyone hear of any 05 changes?
In other news, Lexus GX 470 is coming to Canada in 2 months. Something to look forward to