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Japan's Cash For Clunkers Program

rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
in General
The Japanese Government is limiting the number of models made by the Big 3.....So much for Free Trade!!!!!

http://www.detnews.com/article/20100203/AUTO01/2030405/1148/rss25
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Comments

  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Crybabies. The domestics could submit their models for Japanese fuel economy testing like everyone else (and fail those tests miserably), but instead they threw a hissy fit and got an exemption to use EPA numbers.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    The Japanese, are doing absolutely everything and have for years to keep our Big 3 out of there country. They did it with our motorcycles and I hate to admit this but Reagan did tariff Japanese bikes in the 80's. We need to hammer their butts!!!! :mad:

    -Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Looking at the cars available on the Japanese market, why does anyone think they would want US domestic market products? It's not like they are going to run out and buy a factory shift's volume of Cobalts and Calibers.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    What for? The Japanese market has been declining for years, and in any given month something between a third and half of what does sell is the size of a smart car. The US domestics make nothing that could appeal to Japanese consumers and their wallets in any quantity, and the US domestics already satisfy the boutique market for giant US gas guzzlers via the exemptions for low-volume imports. (And it should be noted that no reciprocal arrangement exists in the US.)

    It's nice that you think Japanese should buy 100,000 Malibus every year, but that's simply not practical nor desirable for the overwhelming majority of the country.
  • surrfurtomsurrfurtom Member Posts: 122
    In the USA we opened up the market and allowed US consumers to buy imported or made in USA cars and they received the benefits.

    In Japan, consumers were recently offered cash for clunkers but were required to buy made in Japan cars. Our US trade reps and WTO and US politicians should have been screaming foul but did nothing.

    If you ever wondered how the USA has been sold out to foreign interests over the past decades this action illustrates exactly how we've all been sold out by our own politicians.

    http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2009/12/us-cars-excluded- -from-japans-cash-for-clunkers-program-/1

    I doubt if few Americans were made aware of this by our multi-national corporate owned media.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    How many American cars would have sold, seeing as the Japanese consumer doesn't buy mass market American cars to begin with?
  • surrfurtomsurrfurtom Member Posts: 122
    Unfortunately, that has been the message sent by our own government for decades that has worked to the detriment of the USA. It was "why should we fight to open their trade barriers when they don't want our products anyway".

    Had our own government been fighting and demanding for fair and equal trade for American products for these past decades, we'd be exporting them many more of our cars instead of the one way street that has persisted and exists.

    It is our own government that has worked against America and American workers and industry.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Which American cars could be sold in viable quantity in Japan, given their road system and cost of motoring? Have you been there or seen what sells there? I can't think of many cars that would sell in anything more than a handful here and there. They aren't going to snap up our Malibus and Avengers when they have so many competent products already. I am all for fair trade, but I don't see any kind of wrong here. You can't export what isn't demanded.

    Europe is much more open to American cars, and they barely sell there, too.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Fintail, it's the principle of the matter. I know the Japanese, are a very nationalistic society and the Big 3 might not sell large numbers of cars to the Japanese. However again it's the principle of the matter and who knows they might snap of some Buick LaCrosses, Volts, etc, if ou products weren't basically banned from there country.

    My point is I as an american am sick and tired of it being a one way street on these free trade agreeements and this type of stuff is why I'm so strongly opposed to "Free Trade" as we know it!!!! :mad:

    -Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    I can't imagine enough being sold there to make a venture worth it - not more than a couple mainstream American vehicles would sell more than a dozen here and there in Japan, and those who want them will just seek a private import firm and get them themselves. A certain number of vehicles has to sell to make it a worthy venture - and that number won't sustain a normal dealership. American cars do make it to Japan and elsewhere, albeit in tiny numbers...just not always via official dealer channels.
  • surrfurtomsurrfurtom Member Posts: 122
    Let's be honest here. For multiple decades the US Congress, US Presidents, the Wall Street greed mongers (yes the same greed infested bunch that recently stuck another knife into the heart of the economy), US business interests and others have been working more for Mexico, China and market opportunities than for the USA and the American taxpaying middle class public that has seen their wealth and wages and opportunities decline.

    It is fair to say that most Americans will no longer be saying "my son's generation will do better than mine".
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    That last part (and most of the first) is the desire of globalization advocates. It's a race to the bottom. But I don't see Japan as part of the real evil here.

    Regarding the Japanese car market - if it was wide open to American cars of all sizes, I would bet my life it would have a negligible-at-best impact on domestic production. They simply don't want almost all of what we make.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well that is because back in the 80's they tariffed our cars to the point that a Chevy Cavalier would cost more than there premium models the domestic car makers there made. Japan has only like 8 GM dealerships in the whole country last I read. However again it's the principle of the matter and if they don't want to play fair fine. Then tell the Big Japanese Automakers to get the hell out of our country and they are banned from doing business with the U.S.....Why we are at it they can start protecting themselves!!! :mad:

    -Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    You know Japan puts tariffs on all imported cars. Others deal with it.

    It all comes down to the product matching the people. Their product matches American people more than American product matches Japanese people. How many cars have the big 2.5 designed for the Japanese market? Zero. Remember when a Toyota badged Cadavalier was made and sold in Japan? It was a flop.

    Force people in domestics, and face a political backlash that no party would dare touch.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    So this country should just roll over and play dead because the Japanese propaganda machine is well funded??? I think somebody has to have enough guts to take the political fallout if any after that person gave a well explained answer. I again as american don't think trade deals should be a one way street. GM is making world class cars now that the Japanese, might buy but won't because they are uncompetitive due to the clunker program restrictions on american cars.

    Perhaps now you understand why I'm strongly opposed to the free trade agreements as they sit. One way street and biased advantage for foreign countries. This along with currency manipulation is one of the many reasons why this country lost millions of jobs. Sure everyone likes to blame the UAW for the Big 3 ills but they weren't the only reason why GM went sick. Japan, isn't the only country where we have unfair trade agreements. Look at China :mad:

    -Rocky
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    GM is making world class cars now that the Japanese, might buy but won't because they are uncompetitive due to the clunker program restrictions on american cars.
    They are uncompetitive because they don't meet the typical needs of a japanese consumer.

    What did Toyota do when they first brought the Cornet to the US in the 50s? They bombed because it wasn't designed for our roads. They left the market with the exceptoni of the Land Cruiser and came back with better cars.

    Now they design cars just for the US market and so does Honda. The camry and Accord we get here are not like the Camry and Accord the rest of the world gets. They are larger cars with softer suspensions designed for our roads. Europe gets a smaller tighter Accord and the Camry in the rest of the world is different too.

    If GM and ford and Chrysler had bothered to design cars for the Japanese market then they could have gotten a foot hold there and actually maybe sold some cars over the past few years. Now Ford has gotten a good market going in Europe with cars designed for Europe. They should be able to tweak those cars and create a niche in the Japanese market with say the Fiesta, Ka and Focus.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Heck, I didn't even bother with having kids because they'd have no future anyway. I guess I was born with the wrong last name. The only reason I'm doing as well as I am is because I held off getting married for a long time and we both don't want kids. Even then, I still envy my Dad's generation. You have to have a Master's degree these days just to do as well as a 1960s factory worker.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    True, Rocky. If not for our military presence, Japan would be known as the Nippon Soviet Socialist Republic and there'd be statues of Josef Stalin in the Ginza.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Rather than build cars in the United States for the Japanese market, the big three invested in existing Japanese makers. GM had Isuzu, Suzuki, and briefly Subaru. Ford had Mazda, and Chrysler had Mitsubishi.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    People in Japan like Japanese cars. They don't like American cars. It's simple.

    Which US-built cars would the Japanese buy in numbers great enough to support dealer and service infrastructure?

    GM is making some great cars, but still has some duds. And none of them are really suitable for the Japanese market. I will easily say they'd rather have an Opel (a company that can design competent smaller cars) than a Chevy if they went GM...how would that help the US?

    The Japanese clunker deal is meaningless - as there's virtually no sales network for American built cars in Japan to begin with.

    There's a lot of unfair trade out there - especially with China...I just don't see this worthy of being upset.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    I am sure if our guilt-mongers would allow them a return to full on nationalism, they'd have no problem defending themselves. Same for Germany. Our military remains in these places 65 years after the war for our own ego as much as any supposed protection. We've still got to show ourselves that "we won something", even though it was generations ago, and it didn't exactly keep our own closets free of skeletons.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    s. Even then, I still envy my Dad's generation. You have to have a Master's degree these days just to do as well as a 1960s factory worker.

    That is just not true. Yes you need more education now then you did 40 years ago but a basic factory job isn't worth 40 plus dollars an hour. It just isn't. I am not saying it should be a minimum wage job but it 15-25 an hour yes that is where it should be.

    I make more money adjusted for inflation then my dad did at my age. Now in five years if I am not making 25-30 percent more then I am now then I won't be making as much as my dad did as he had his master at that point. Put the time line out another 10-15 years from now and I need to double or triple what I am making now. By that time my dad had his own business and until the oil market collapsed in the late 80s he was doing very, very well.

    My Brother in law is in the same shape as me and so are several other friends I graduated college with. All of us in our late 20s to early 30s.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I have lots of friends with Master Degree's that are working fast food and other menial jobs because they can't find a decent damn job. Sure you and your friends might be the exception of the rule but the fact remains our generation is not better off than our parents generation. Some of my friends thought they were going to get the good paying job as the market looked decent for employment opportunities when they persued that degree but instead they got a nice chunk of debt and a McJob salary. But because our exports aren't excepted in Japan, due to trade barriers and currency manipulation issues our generation will suffer. :sick:

    -Rocky
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    http://www.volkswagen.co.jp/index.html

    So if you wave a magic wand and the import tariffs go away, what can GM sell in Japan and Europe tomorrow in meaningful numbers? Remember, it's the NA GM lineup, not Opel cars.

    trucks - no
    body on frame suv - no
    anything with a V6 - maybe but not a great numbers
    Ask yourself, if gas is $5/gal, which GM vehicle would you own?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    GM has the largest fleet of the most fuel efficient vehicles in the world. If Japan's market was open they might consider making more smaller cars as it would make business sense and we would benefit because GM would probably include those vehicles for our market as well. Small cars will sell but you have to do a large enough volume to make those thin profits per unit to justify it!!! ;)

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Exactly!!! ;)

    -Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    How much of that fleet is US-made?

    The most efficient fleet in the world, or in the US? Are you aware of some of the vehicles sold in Europe?

    I don't think Japan's market is large enough to impact production enough to make an entire vehicle class more viable. Remember, even if it is open with zero barriers, you still have very competent domestic makers to compete with, ones who understand the type of small car the Japanese Joe Sixpack wants.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I was referring to the U.S. fleet. With today's platforms it would cost that much to engineer a car to satisfy the wants and needs of the Japanese. The bottom line is it's not going to happen. Nothing will be done because our country is full of cowards in D.C. :mad:

    -Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    I think trying for the Japanese market is a waste of resources. I'd be complaining more about the barriers of the Chinese market. That's where some problems are being born. Yet we take all of their junk without question.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I do agree the Chinese, love a one-way street but with them holding a good chunk of out national debt well what can we really say??? :sick:

    -Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    If we fail, they fail....so they have to be careful.

    Of course, there's not going to be a Chinese cash-for-clunkers program anytime soon.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    edited February 2010
    LOL :D

    -Rocky
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I like to call it Mutually Assured Economic Destruction or MAED.

    The people stamping their feet saying China has too much power of us forget that we have power over them as well.

    When you owe 100,000 dollars to the bank and can't pay then that is a problem for you.

    When you owe 100,000 million dollars to the bank and can't pay then that is a problem for the bank.

    Same situation we have with China.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    And we're also the key dumping ground for the stuff made in their factories. They want us to be relatively happy and healthy, as via this comes their own health. They understand
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    link title

    New imported vehicle sales in Japan, including cars made abroad and imported by Japanese automakers, jumped 16.9% in February from a year earlier to 14,433 units, posting a year-on-year increase for the fourth month in a row, an industry body said Thursday.
  • surrfurtomsurrfurtom Member Posts: 122
    When you are the top dog only a fool would give away that negotiating point. Wal-Mart always used its position as the leading retail marketer for manufactured consumer products, to demand heavy concessions from producers. If you as XYZ producer wanted to sell to Wal-Mart you had to bare bone your costs, package it the way they want it, use RFID, and sometimes off shore your production to China so that it can be sold to them for even less among other concessions.

    For decades (but now ending) the USA was the top dog market in the world for consumer products, and what did our leaders do to leverage that power? Instead of demanding concessions for open markets from our trade partners they did nothing. They gave away our nation and economy to China and Japan and every other country but failed the US people. I don't see it at all as unfair to state that many in Congress and our Presidents worked against the interests of the US people. By definition that makes them traitors.

    Traitor def: 1 : one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/traitor
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