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CVT vs. 5-speed manual
danielsomers
Member Posts: 1
in Subaru
I'm thinking of buying an Impreza. I thought I would get a Honda Fit but the more I look at them...the more I wonder if I could stand the look of the thing long term. The Impreza doesn't thrill me too much, either, but it's better, and a Golf TDI is just too expensive!
But I'm a little concerned about gas mileage. Looks like most people don't reach what's advertised, and some do a lot worse. But then...some seem to do pretty well. But on average it sure sounds not what you'd quite hope for.
Does anyone here have good knowledge of manual vs. CRT? I like sticks, and doubt the CVT would save enough gas to pay for itself. But is it possible that someone who knows how to drive a stick and is careful could do better than a CVT (which of course is rated 3 mpg higher). There are also some posts suggesting software problems with CVT, so perhaps 5 speed is more consistent and reliable on mpg? The trick is there aren't many with manuals posting (I assume most people buy automatic these days) so it's tough to tell from reading the posts. Any thoughts?
THANKS!
But I'm a little concerned about gas mileage. Looks like most people don't reach what's advertised, and some do a lot worse. But then...some seem to do pretty well. But on average it sure sounds not what you'd quite hope for.
Does anyone here have good knowledge of manual vs. CRT? I like sticks, and doubt the CVT would save enough gas to pay for itself. But is it possible that someone who knows how to drive a stick and is careful could do better than a CVT (which of course is rated 3 mpg higher). There are also some posts suggesting software problems with CVT, so perhaps 5 speed is more consistent and reliable on mpg? The trick is there aren't many with manuals posting (I assume most people buy automatic these days) so it's tough to tell from reading the posts. Any thoughts?
THANKS!
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I checked fuel economy on both of the Impreza test drives, and although they were relatively short the CVT definitely did better there.
In place of the TDI I bought a 2012 Impreza Sport Premium hatchback with a 5-speed manual. I'm going to disagree with Daniel with regard to the 5-speed being noisier. In fact, noise is a primary complaint with the CVT because it revs high and hold the high revs during any kind of acceleration (this is common CVT behavior). With the 5-speed, you have better control of the engine's RPMs.
As others have said, I don't think the fuel economy differences between the two tranny choices is significant, as long as you know how to drive a stick well.
On the Impreza forum that I frequent (NASIOC), there are many CVT owners who wish the bought a manual tranny, but didn't either because of city driving, or family members who can't drive a stick. But they would have made a different choice if they could have.
I have the stick, and wouldn't want it any other way.
Good luck!
Some of the folks in the diesel threads think they walk on water...
On average, the Fit really isn't all that stellar in the FE department. Its space is fantastic, but you'll probably not see better than about 34-35 mpg on average. It's actually one of the least fuel efficient FWD sub-compacts currently available.
If one considers that the Impreza will likely sit at 30-32 average with AWD, the Fit isn't really a good fit unless you simply want a Fit.
I find it more roomy than the Civic, for instance.
My mom's on her 2nd Fit. Great city car, but noisy on the highway.
My wife and I have been driving manual xmissions for well over million miles. Never one bit of trouble with them. (never even wore out a clutch)
Recently, my wife got a Subie with CVT. Our main reason for chosing CVT is the MPG it offers.
After some time with the CVT, I have formed some opinions. (As an engineer as well as a driver)
*)First of all, I have no clue what all the reviews mean by a CVT being "noisy". Even if I listen very carefully, I can only hear a VERY slight wirring sound which is never obtrusive. No more noise than the gear-meshing sound of a manual xmision.
*) The promised MPG is easily achievable with a light throttle-pressure to keep the engine-RPMs low and allow the CVT to shift up as the roadspeed increases. Country-roads (under 50MPH) actually seem to get BETTER MPG than on a highway. (over 60MPH)
*) I can say that it is MUCH harder to maintain a constant roadspeed with CVT compared to a manual xmission (exact same Subie engine in both cars) . The CVT is always trying maintain optimum engine-rpms ... but the roadspeed changes all the time as it does this. One has to 'pedal' constantly to maintain constant speed as the road rises and falls.
*) Acceleration is actually quicker than a normal automatic that shifts gears... but the SOUND the engine is making does not relay the briskness of that acceleration to the driver. The car simply accelerates as the engine-RPM stays stable.
*) The Outback is a pretty large vehicle and is dragging around all the xtra metal of AWD system. (in addition to all the extra moving parts which must be rotated)...yet it is AVERAGING 28MPG during daily driving. PHENOMENAL!
Really cannot argue that the CVT offers better mileage return. I still wouldn't give up the MT. Actually, I would be concerned about how well the CVT could handle the load. Prior to leaving on that trip, I towed an enclosed trailer 350 miles to pick up a piano, then hauled it home. I sure love the versatility of this little car. For "normal" use, though, CVT wouldn't be a problem at all.
Per CR the new one does +4mpg better than ours, and that makes we want to trade my wife's up for a new one.
Competing priorities, though.
You've had your '09 for what, about 5.5 years now? That should put you in at about half my miles. :-P Keep it. You'd never make up the difference over a meager 4 mpg.
So it's just now broken in.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I certainly won't be buying a CVT in this lifetime unless I finally bite the bullet on a hybrid.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That's not to say that there is anything inherently *wrong* with a CVT, just that neither of us prefer it.
I purchased the only silver 5m in the Calif bay area. My wife said I got a good price cuz hardly anyone buys a manual anymore!
I'm not surprised you had trouble finding a manual. My local dealer only stocks WRXs and one or two base trim Imprezas and Foresters with a stick.
My choices seven years from now for manual Subarus are likely to be limited to WRX and STi (and BRZ if it makes it to a redesign), I fear. I wouldn't mind a stick-shift Forester or CrossTrek with that huge panoramic moonroof, but I think the boat has already sailed on the Forester and I won't be holding my breath on the CrossTrek....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
They're just building what sells. And lots of people think paddle shifters are just like a manual ... but WE know they aren't!
Are they building what sells, or are they selling what they build?! Sounds like I'm joking, but I'm really not...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) considerations now dictate the product mix. CVTs deliver the required economy improvement with the test procedures used. I would not be surprised to see Subaru drop all manuals in the next few years.
@saedave: They are designing them to the EPA test, not to predict real-world mileage. Lots of people were disappointed by the new Impreza CVT, getting way below rated mileage. Stick shift drivers, of course, went on getting the same superlative mileage they always have in their Subarus. ;-)
By the way, I am sad to say you are probably right about the manuals comment, EXCEPT there is no way they drop the manual completely from the WRX/STi (and probably not from the BRZ either, if that model survives to gen II).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think you are correct about manuals continuing in those very low volume models which would have little effect on CAFE.
I wonder how many folks even know how the EPA does its MPG testing? I read thru the test-procedure a few months ago... Basically, it goes as follows:
Known - Vehicle weight
The important thing to keep in mind is that the vehicle is not ever driven on a road by the EPA folks. (Step 1 above is done by the manufacturer) The computer and its algorithms to calculate MPG is all that is used.
The only way a manufacturer can 'sway' the results is to mis-represent the coast-down numbers. (which has happened in the past a couple times.)
Personally, I ALWAYS get higher MPG than the EPA estimates. However, my driving-habits have been fine-tuned over many years of driving for economy. (My VW diesel is rated at 39MPG and I routinely get over 50MPG - I have a spreadsheet of fuel-purchases for every vehicle I own including Vespa scooter, Motorcycle and automobiles)